Drago - Slow Token Response and Movement

[mordkhaan]

An seeing slow token selection response and movement in this campaign (attached as zip)
Large number of them have Candle Lighting attached to them so possibly related
Could also be related to one or more of the extensions in play, yet to do dull diagnosis
Other campaign havent shown this issue but havent had the same number of lighting effects on individual tokens
Joys of Halloween One Scooby Doo One Shot :D

[Moon Wizard]

Unfortunately, you have 60 extensions loading, as well as at least one that I know is messing with saving/loading files dynamically for fog-of-war.
Also, I couldn't tell which map was problematic, as there were so many loaded and you didn't specify.

In order for me to pass on to our image developer, I would need to get an example campaign without any extensions that exhibits the problem.

Regards,
JPG

[mordkhaan]

Copied Campaign and unloaded all extensions
Map is that which all in CT are on, called Players Map Beauregard Mansion
Is a bit better without extensions but also wasnt as bad before without any players connected
Still seems a little jittery when moving player tokens about

[Zacchaeus]

Unloading extensions can still leave a lot of stuff in the db.xml. Moon Wizard means a new campaign without extensions and a map that you can reproduce the issue on.

[mordkhaan]

Rightio :)

[Moon Wizard]

Unfortunately, the map you mention that the tokens are on from the combat tracker is in a custom module called "A Night of Fright", which was not provided with the campaign. So, I still can't see what you are seeing.

Regards,
JPG

[mordkhaan]

Module attached

[Moon Wizard]

Thanks for sticking with us on getting that narrowed down. I was able to open the map, and see some reduced performance.

It probably has something to do with lots of window line-of-sight blockers and 25 tokens on the map at once.

I'll forward on to our image developer, @cpinder, to see what he finds.

Regards,
JPG

[mordkhaan]

No, Thank YOU for persisting with it! :)
I have a bunch of tokens on there for furniture etc, is that contributing do you think?

[Moon Wizard]

Yes, the number of tokens has the largest impact on performance, due to the vision, fog-of-war and visibility checks required. You should use the furniture as "image" assets instead, which cuts down drastically on performance overhead.

Regards,
JPG

[mordkhaan]

Good to know!
So I presume I am better to remove all my furniture/object tokens from tokens folder, and then make a module of them?
And this would be same or other images, performance is better if all in a module than loaded from images/tokens folder?
Is the number of modules in the modules folder a factor?
More smaller modules than one large module (specifically for images)?

[Moon Wizard]

You should move the image files to an "images/Furniture/" folder; and then add from the Images section of the Assets window. Then, they will be added as layers when you drag and drop; or you can stamp paint them using the stamp tool under the Painting mode of the image data panel.

Definitely don't put them in the "tokens/" folder at all.

JPG

[mordkhaan]

Will definitely do some work in that space then, and let my other GM buddies know too!
And what about folder vs module? Performance gains/losses to be made there to do with number and size of?

[Moon Wizard]

The performance difference between the two is minimal (i.e. folder vs. module), since they are kept in memory once loaded. There is a small hit for loading from modules (essentially ZIP files), but they are easier to manage and group.

The number of assets will only matter when viewing in the Assets window, and it depends more on the number of assets shown per folder and the size of the Assets window (i.e. how many thumbnails does it need to create). For use on the images themselves, it's just the initial load, and if you re-use an image, it's only loaded once.

Regards,
JPG

[mordkhaan]

Ok, nice :)
So if there are campaign specific images, better to make a module that is loaded only for that campaign so as not to over load things in the Asset window

[Moon Wizard]

Yeah, you can add campaign specific assets to the images/ and tokens/ folders within that specific campaign folder; and then they will be shown in a "Campaign" bag in the Assets window and only shown for that specific campaign.

Regards,
JPG

[mordkhaan]

Thanks for that!
One other point, If I want to make a lamp or such with a lighting effect it will HAVE to be a token so effect can be applied though right?

[LordEntrails]

Thanks for that!
One other point, If I want to make a lamp or such with a lighting effect it will HAVE to be a token so effect can be applied though right?
Depends, are the players going to be moving it or just you? As the GM, you can just place a light on the map and then go back into the image edit mode and move it around when desired. Note that doing so when you have a lot of tokens on the map may cause a temporary performance hit as you move it and FG tries to calculate all the vision impacts (note, all that will be the same if it is a token with an effect, or a light).

[mordkhaan]

Oh so just apply a light over the image and move both around together if I need to
Cool thanks!

[Moon Wizard]

Or, if the reason to move the light is that a creature picked it up, just disable the image-based light by toggling it off on map, then add a token light effect to the creature carrying the light.

Regards,
JPG

[mordkhaan]

Good Point!
So a related question then
If a Creature is hidden in the CT, I presume LoS is still being calculated as if they were visible
I wonder if that could perhaps be toggleable so there is less impact on things?

[Moon Wizard]

If the token is invisible, then it is quickly excluded from visibility calculations for other tokens, but the visibility from that token to other tokens still needs to be calculated.

The end result is that tokens should only be used for creatures.

Regards,
JPG

[Lo Zeno]

The end result is that tokens should only be used for creatures.


Which is unfortunately very limiting during a game: if we as DMs use tokens only for creatures, we end up slowing down the game a lot, and combat rounds in D&D are already very slow.
There's a plethora of elements that need some way to be moved across the map during a combat - carriages, visible spell effects, visible aura effects, pickable objects, torches dropped on the floor and picked up by someone else, traps, and various other interactive map elements that make the game interesting and fun.
I know I've said that before, but using the image tools is cumbersome and slow, it always ends up with a frustrated DM saying "Wait a minute guys, I need to move the Maximilian Earth Grasp spell... open image tool, select layer, select image... drag it... dang, I resized it by mistake, let me fix it... ....ok did you see it move? no? Ah you saw it disappear only? Ah right, it's because it "moved" towards that corner and went behind it, so you two cannot see it now".

Just an example. "Moving" things through the image tools doesn't make them "move" in the eyes of the players, the same way as moving a token does, they just blink from one place to another so if they end up out of their view they don't see "what direction it moved". Plus, as I said, it's very very very slow.
We would really benefit from either a quicker way to add and move image assets (quicker than using the current image tools just to add a carriage and move it around), or to something that we can drag and drop on the map and easily move around... like tokens.

And THAT explains why people "misuse" tokens.

I mean, honest question for you, Moon: how complex would be to add something that acts like a token, but is unaffected by line-of-sight (and as such excluded by visibility and LOS calculations) to FGU? Something called "Background Elements", that you can drop on the map, move around, resize and rotate with the same controls as a token, but without the green round border and without the "visibility" toggle (so would follow the same visibility rules as the layers of the image, instead of the token)?
Do you think it would be an achievable feature to add?

[Weissrolf]

FGU could add a token vision type called "blind" or a simple "has vision" switch, in order to keep tokens from unnecessarily calculating their own vision. I would even opt to make the "has vision" default to disabled for all non CT tokens.