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bayne7400
October 25th, 2021, 19:04
If you have suggestions, feedback or bug reports for the OSE ruleset please post them here.

You can also find us on FG Discord.


Necrotic Gnome Discord

https://discord.com/channels/@me/869671145950023721/927217050739429446

The ruleset is downloaded on the Forge for FREE.

Courtesy of JollyGM and Bayne.

https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/199/view

To Play Old School Essentials on Fantasy Grounds, you will need this ruleset (linked above). You will also need the SRD (available here (https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/200/view)) or Advanced Tomes (available here (https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/crafter/168/view-profile)) from the Forge. Alternatively, you can build each record in on your own. Its completely plug and play.

This ruleset is stand alone. When you create your first campaign select the OSE2 ruleset for your game.

bayne7400
October 26th, 2021, 16:46
Small update:

Updated some of the custom fonts. The Ruleset should now compatible with the Standard FG themes.

dpezet
October 27th, 2021, 02:48
You cannot read a spell's level or description when using the "FG Dark" theme. They appear to be set to white text on a white background.

Here's the Barkskin spell with the FG Dark theme
49682

Here's the Barkskin spell with the FG Light theme
49683

bayne7400
October 27th, 2021, 11:31
Ok thanks looks like I missed two. I was using a standard FG font. I had to add a custom font and change each one individually.

bayne7400
November 1st, 2021, 01:09
Latest update on the Forge. This is the last one (except bug fixes) Until the Core RPG update.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlanYXgZwH8

Ramza
December 27th, 2021, 05:03
Thanks for developing this ruleset. Is there potential to add an option to have the hp rolled for npc/monsters instead of just the average when they are dropped on the CT? Currently even if you make an adjustment to the HP box on the combat tracker it is not permanent. For example, A 2HD creature is given 8 HP when added to the combat tracker. I adjust the HP to 5 and drop 6 damage onto them. The chat says they've been slain but then the HP box is set to 2 remaining.

My only other question would be is there a way to set a groups initiative in the CT all at once? So after a player rolls initiative I can update all players and then with one initiative roll for the npcs I can update them all.

bayne7400
December 27th, 2021, 12:38
Yeah I'll take a look at the hp issue today.

bayne7400
December 27th, 2021, 14:15
Really great feedback man thanks. So new build is uploaded and I changed the behavior. You may notice that OSE CT responded differently to say 5E. It updated HP total on CT vice just showing wounds. I now delinked it from NPC records. So when you add wounds to a NPC the HP stay unchanged. The messages to the player are separate code and still function (made a minor tweek for NPCs). They will still see wounded, heavy, and dead. Also when an NPC is slain the player will not longer see the " slain message" The wound box will update to dead and on the Host side the name and HP turn blood red as a trigger for the DM.


Your diagnosis of what was happening was spot on. From now on the HP block in the NPC record is all that matters. Once you drop it onto the CT you can adjust the block on CT or (local CT) NPC record as they are now linked

Dire Weasel
December 31st, 2021, 22:28
The Hole in the Oak

In the reference manual, Adventure Overview is empty.

05.011 11. Teleport Circle

Consider adding a link to Area 35.

05.032 32. Hidden Crypt

Azure Serpent Blade link Adventure Overview links to an empty page 02.000 Adventure Overview.

05.033 33. Bat's Roost

NPC: Bat, Normal is linked to SRD rather than adventure.

Dire Weasel
December 31st, 2021, 22:31
Should the author of Halls of the Blood King and Winter's Daughter be listed as Necrotic Gnome, to make it easier to search for the modules?

50639

bayne7400
January 1st, 2022, 00:12
Thanks I'll pass it on to the developer.

vegaserik
January 1st, 2022, 04:36
Should the author of Halls of the Blood King and Winter's Daughter be listed as Necrotic Gnome, to make it easier to search for the modules?

50639

Winter's Daughter should have Necrotic Gnome listed as the author. We'll have to make sure he's got the newest one uploaded, I made that change before it was released.

bayne7400
January 1st, 2022, 12:27
Winter's Daughter should have Necrotic Gnome listed as the author. We'll have to make sure he's got the newest one uploaded, I made that change before it was released.

Check the post above that for WD. I'll check the version we gave NG. Seems like we found that bat issue before.

Disregard. I read "Hole in Oak" as Winters Daughter :)

bayne7400
January 1st, 2022, 15:45
Should the author of Halls of the Blood King and Winter's Daughter be listed as Necrotic Gnome, to make it easier to search for the modules?

50639

Dire good catch on the bat. He fixed the encounter and the NPC record just not the link.

Can you verify Winters Daughter does not say Necrotic Gnome? Mine does so it possible Gavin did not uploaded the updated version.

Dire Weasel
January 1st, 2022, 17:31
Winter's Daughter lists Gavin Norman as author.

50653

bayne7400
January 1st, 2022, 20:29
Awesome man thanks. We changed WD but it has not been uploaded thanks again.

Dire Weasel
January 2nd, 2022, 01:22
Incandescent Grottos

17. Gel Tanks

"... biological matter, turn1ing flesh..."
Remove "1" in "turning".

27. Temple Entrance

"West: drip ping ooze..."
Space in "dripping".

"... ooze (green rock2)4, east..."
Remove numbers:
"... ooze (green rock), east..."

"Rotting Corpse 20"
Remove "20".

"... apparenly fleeing..."
Mispelled "apparently".

28. Temple of the Faceless Lord

"...engraved with ivy, see Old-School Essentials ), ..."
Extra space before closing parenthesis.

29. Dissolved One

"Encounter: 29. Disolved One"
Mispelled "Dissolved".

bayne7400
January 2nd, 2022, 12:23
I sent these over to the developer. Even on my best day I would not have commented on #28 . =)

Jiminimonka
January 2nd, 2022, 12:35
I found some others as well in 27. Updating now and sending off in a few minutes.
Thanks @Dire Weasel

P.S. I also added the keywords so you can search the reference manual... oops

bayne7400
January 2nd, 2022, 12:42
We need dire weasel to review the reviewer.

Jiminimonka
January 2nd, 2022, 13:34
OK, so I fixed all the typos Dire Weasel found, and also a few others that I spotted. I also made Encounter and Parcel Links BOLD so they stand out, and put the Reference Manual at the top of the module window, added proper keywords for searching the Reference Manual and did some pretties too.

Dire Weasel
January 2nd, 2022, 21:10
Found a few more in Incandescent Grottos.

51. Primist's Retreat

Title should be "Prismist's Retreat" (missing "s").

"... extreme circumstances uncover- ing the prism..."
Remove "- ".

"Encounter: 51. Primist's Retreat"
Should be "Prismist's Retreat" (missing "s").

"Parcel: 51. Prismatist's Retreat"
Should be:
"Parcel: 51. Prismist's Retreat"

Jiminimonka
January 2nd, 2022, 21:53
Fixed
Thanks!

Dire Weasel
January 30th, 2022, 04:45
Incandescent Grottos

27. Temple Entrance

"... mounded ooze (green rock2), ..."
Remove number:
"... mounded ooze (green rock), east..."

Dire Weasel
January 30th, 2022, 04:45
Advanced Player's Tome

Basic Adventuring Gear

Missing:
Holy Symbol
Wine (2 pints)

Dire Weasel
January 30th, 2022, 04:50
It looks like the ruleset doesn't automatically adjust AC when equipping armor?

Dire Weasel
January 30th, 2022, 04:54
I saw these errors while running, but don't recall the specifics:
[1/24/2022 8:43:35 PM] [ERROR] Script execution error: [string "level_label"]:75: attempt to compare number with string
[1/24/2022 8:53:41 PM] [ERROR] Script execution error: [string "level_label"]:64: attempt to compare number with string

Jiminimonka
January 30th, 2022, 10:39
Incandescent Grottos

27. Temple Entrance

"... mounded ooze (green rock2), ..."
Remove number:
"... mounded ooze (green rock), east..."

Thanks, I'll fix this tonight when I get home from work.

bayne7400
January 30th, 2022, 13:21
It does adjust ac when you equip armor. Thanks for posting the error. I saw it the other day and I could not reproduce it. I'll look into it further.

Are you running any extensions. I think this might be an extension we both might have had running.

bayne7400
January 30th, 2022, 14:57
Ok Dire Error is fixed thank you. Root cause: When I coded that I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Also new ADV Tome should be updated this week. Your slacking because arrows were also missing! thanks again

Axe
February 2nd, 2022, 00:39
I just found the random treasure tables. These will make the game/prep go by much quicker. Thanks!

Just a few notes:

POSSIBLE PROBLEMS
01 "Gem Values" table has a "21 Gem Values" listed. (May be by design for this program, just thought I'd mention it)
02 TREASURE TYPE E table doesn't roll for silver. (random copper table is listed under silver)
03 MISC MAGIC ITEMS II (table) "Figurine of Wondrous Power" doesn't have a link to the item, nor does the result continue and roll on "Figurine of Wondrous Power:Type" table [Edit: Therefore the link to the item description doesn't appear in the chat window when the item is rolled]


UNREASONABLE WANTS ;)

MISC MAGIC ITEMS I (table)
01 Alchemist Beaker, have the 1d4+1 Potion Types be automatically rolled.
02 Bracers of Armor, determine AC granted by bracers (AC= 8-1d4)
03 Candle of Invocation, determine alignment randomly.

MISC MAGIC ITEMS II (table)
04 Cloak of Defense, determine AC bonus randomly (roll 1d8: 1-4=+1, 5-6:+2, 7-8:+3
05 Dust of Appearance, determine number of parcels found randomly (5d10)
06 Dust of Disappearance, number of parcels found randomly (5d10)
07 Dust of Sneezing and Choking, number of parcels (5d10)
08 Feather Token, determine type randomly (table is already listed in item description)


This is as far as I've gotten.

CHEERS!

bayne7400
February 2nd, 2022, 02:26
Alright man thanks. I'll look this over tomorrow have a good night!

Tuirgin
February 2nd, 2022, 03:42
I have some feedback on the Incandescent Grottoes module. I'm not sure how much of this is just me being nitpicky so... grain of salt.

One thing affects several of the items I list below. It appears that all objects are read-only, so it's not possible to change settings for anything in the module without making copies of whatever I want to change. This is particularly relevant for roll tables (all of them are set to visible) and encounters where I might want to change the (un-)identified, faction, and token. I have other items I've purchased which are not read only; for example DCC adventures picked up from the main FG store (DCC #67: Sailors on the Starless Sea (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=GGDCCFGGMG5066)), to OSRIC's Monsters of Myth (https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/377/view) picked up from The Forge... oh, yeah... and The Hole in the Oak (https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/327/view)... also not read-only. Should have lead with that. Since these are not read-only I can change things in play. With everything locked down in Incandescent Grottoes, I have to make a copy of every single entity I want to treat differently from the packaged settings.


The "00.01 Maps" story is blank.
The "00.03 Table of Contents" story is missing links—the link title is there, but the links are not. As well, there's a "Dungeon Areas" heading with nothing appearing after it.
The "00.07 Treasure in the Dungeon" story has no parcel links just a placeholder for "Parcels for each area".
The "00.08 Random Happenings" story has no links to the L1 and L2 random encounter tables.
All NPCs appears to be identified. Better would be unidentified. Wouldn't be a problem if the module weren't read-only.
All encounters leave the factions undefined—the hover text reads "Factions" as opposed to "Friendly," "Neutral," or "Hostile." However, when the encounter is added to the combat tracker they switch to hostile. I'm torn on this one. If the combat tracker were only used for initiative, this might be preferable. But the combat tracker is also used for putting pre-placed encounters on the map—those encounters may remain peaceful, for example the red-cap monkeys. If the module weren't read-only this wouldn't be a problem.
Roll tables are all set to visible. I roll everything in the open except for my roll tables and things like hiding/sneaking. This is particularly unhelpful for the "Rumours" table which lists "(F)" and "(P)" for false or partially true. Wouldn't be a problem except for the "read-only".
Included NPCs lack descriptions. The notes tab includes the specials, but not the description—unlike The Hole in the Oak, which appears to have everything but the statblock in the notes.
Encounters are mostly enumerated by numeric key, but there's no zero-padding used to maintain correct sort-order, so "4" is listed below "10". Better would be to use zero-padding to the length of the maximum number. "04" will correctly appear earlier than "10".


Cheers,
Tuirgin

bayne7400
February 2nd, 2022, 12:08
Thanks for the feedback. I can't think of a reason to lock an adventure module so maybe we can adjust. Jimi may not have used the parser so the block did not display on the notes tab.
The faction thing I'll look at. It might be how core is handling or a bug in my script.
Npcs when dropped on CT should default to unidentified. I'll take a look at the code.

bayne7400
February 2nd, 2022, 12:46
ok Axe here are your answers

Gem values. The reason I did 21 and made it re roll is because on some rolls it takes 5 + minutes to roll for all the gems. Using a non normal die value makes it instant. So it is done that way based on playability and should not effect the outcomes.

Treasure type E- fixed


Alchemist beaker added
Dust parcels added
For cloak best way to add it is as an effect. So the template item will have to work.

Tuirgin
February 2nd, 2022, 15:08
Thanks for the feedback. I can't think of a reason to lock an adventure module so maybe we can adjust. Jimi may not have used the parser so the block did not display on the notes tab.

Just to be clear, the notes have the specials info, just not the descriptive/flavor text. I'm not worried about the statblock as it's covered by the NPC's fields.


The faction thing I'll look at. It might be how core is handling or a bug in my script.

I looked at the behavior in the 2e ruleset and it does the same thing: if an NPC record in an encounter is not one of "Friendly," "Neutral," or "Foe" the NPC is switched to "Foe" when added to the CT. I figured this was probably typical FG behavior, and it is only a problem here because of the module being locked down to read-only.


Npcs when dropped on CT should default to unidentified. I'll take a look at the code.

Shouldn't it default to whatever the ID was set to in the encounter? It's much easier and more efficient to manage ID in an encounter since you can set the ID for an entire mob. After they've been added to the CT each one has to be changed independently, right? Which means that the Encounter-to-CT mechanism is working okay, but the NPCs are identified by default and it can't be changed by the user due to the module being read-only.

Beyond the various missing links, it seems like the majority of my report would be mitigated by the module not being released as read-only.

Jiminimonka
February 2nd, 2022, 20:22
Just to be clear, the notes have the specials info, just not the descriptive/flavor text. I'm not worried about the statblock as it's covered by the NPC's fields.



I looked at the behavior in the 2e ruleset and it does the same thing: if an NPC record in an encounter is not one of "Friendly," "Neutral," or "Foe" the NPC is switched to "Foe" when added to the CT. I figured this was probably typical FG behavior, and it is only a problem here because of the module being locked down to read-only.



Shouldn't it default to whatever the ID was set to in the encounter? It's much easier and more efficient to manage ID in an encounter since you can set the ID for an entire mob. After they've been added to the CT each one has to be changed independently, right? Which means that the Encounter-to-CT mechanism is working okay, but the NPCs are identified by default and it can't be changed by the user due to the module being read-only.

Beyond the various missing links, it seems like the majority of my report would be mitigated by the module not being released as read-only.

NPC's are copied from the PDF, and include the information from the PDF. The behaviour of the NPCs is in the entries for their location (Story/Refmanual). There is no other information in the PDF to fill into the NPCs entries (if there is, point me to it and I'll update it).

Identified is the default across the board on Fantasy Grounds, and you can click on the link in the Encounter before you drop it to make it un-identified.

I will export it as Unlocked so user's can edit it, for things like tables.

Thanks.

EDIT: Removed some Story entries, they are not necessary as the Reference Manual contains the fully formatted versions.

Tuirgin
February 2nd, 2022, 21:44
NPC's are copied from the PDF, and include the information from the PDF. The behaviour of the NPCs is in the entries for their location (Story/Refmanual). There is no other information in the PDF to fill into the NPCs entries (if there is, point me to it and I'll update it).

Where this becomes important is with the random encounters. For example, lets say you roll up the Giant Mutant Frogs from Level 2, Random Happenings #11. When this is rolled, you get an encounter from which you can access the Giant Mutant Frog NPC. The Notes tab has the special, but no descriptive detail, and no pointer to where in the adventure the Giant Mutant Frog is found. The adventure's version of the Giant Mutant Frog is slightly reskinned from the version in the Advanced Ref's book. Here's the details from the adventure, page 25, key 26:


5 Giant Mutant Frogs

Carnivorous giant frogs (2' long, vicious talons and teeth). Warty green skin (purple nodules). Dripping wet (crawling up from the chasm). Croaking (belch-like).

Reaction: Highly aggressive, voraciously carnivorous.

<statblock>


Treasure: One’s stomach contains a partially digested human hand with a platinum ring (200gp).


The OSE AF Ref's book has the following listing, which IS present in the OSE AF Reree's Tome FG module:



Giant (2’ long), mutant frogs with vicious talons and teeth. Highly aggressive, voraciously carnivorous (will even eat their own kind). Dwell underground or in forlorn swamps.

<statblock>


Origin: Rumoured to have been specially bred by magical means.



There are similar things going on with book monsters like the Giant Centipede—the OSE AF Referee's Tome module has the descriptive text, but the adventure module copy of the monster doesn't.

More importantly, I just discovered that some of the NPCs referenced in the Random Happenings tables are referencing the SRD and give me errors at the point when I attempt to load a generated encounter from the table result entry's link to them. I have the OSE AF Tomes loaded, but not the SRD since it's duplicate material.


Random Happenings Level 1, #7: Kobolds
Random Happenings Level 1, #8: Troglodytes
Random Happenings Level 2, #10: Tentacled Shadow Mass
Random Happenings Level 2, #12: Lizard Man


The module's store page indicates that it requires the OSE ruleset, but doesn't mention that it's required to load the SRD, so I assume this linkage wasn't intentional.



Identified is the default across the board on Fantasy Grounds, and you can click on the link in the Encounter before you drop it to make it un-identified.


Okay... yeah, I definitely don't want to suggest to move away from FG standards. I've been away from FG for a while, so I'm re-learning these things. As well, I see now that I can edit the ID state even with the module locked... I thought I'd tried and failed to do it, but it's working, and I'm got it wrong. I just can't perform any other edits on an encounter without copying it until the unlocked version has been pushed out.



I will export it as Unlocked so user's can edit it, for things like tables.


Awesome... that'll be a big help.

Thanks for your time!

Jiminimonka
February 2nd, 2022, 21:50
The SRD is free, download it here https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/200/view

EDIT: Making local copies for those NPCs so you don't need the SRD. Update soon.

Tuirgin
February 2nd, 2022, 22:23
The SRD is free, download it here https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/200/view

I wasn't saying that I don't have the SRD. I have it and hid it as soon as I purchased the OSE AF tomes for FG as I didn't see a need to load duplicate data. Is linking against SRD records going to be standard practice for future OSE modules? If so it'd be helpful to update the forge listing to indicate the dependency.

bayne7400
February 2nd, 2022, 22:38
Yeah that was a mistake bud thanks for the feedback.

Tuirgin
February 2nd, 2022, 22:44
Terrific... glad to see OSE getting support. FWIW I'm a software tester/QA automation "engineer" in my day job. So, apologies if my reports and responses get overly detailed. It's force of habit at this point. Or I'm just a verbose SOB. :p

bayne7400
February 2nd, 2022, 23:19
Oh yeah I am not going anywhere. I continue to make improvements to the ruleset as time permits. I still want to add a turn tracker that integrates with the CT and a few more quality of Life items.

Axe
February 5th, 2022, 07:10
Howdy! Thanks for the updates.

I updated 02/04/2022.

Only OSE AF Player's Tome and OSE AF Referee's Tome loaded.

Items, Groups, seems to have one too many groups ("Old School Essentials Advanced Fantasy Player's Tome"). This group only has "wine" in it. Items appear to be in "Old School Essentials Advanced Players Tome".

When building a new character, AC remains at "0" (zero) instead of "9", which is great for Magic Users. When a character is given (unequipped) armor and it appears in the Inventory, AC correctly changes to "9". When the Armor is equipped, the AC does change to the correct number.


Just a few notes.

bayne7400
February 5th, 2022, 12:41
So when you make a character as soon as you add any item to the inventory it updates the AC. Ill investigate the behavior and next update address it. I added a backpack and the AC values updated. It probably has to do with the window not initializing when you first pop open the character sheet but not a major deal since most adventurers carry at least one item :)

Wine was created as uncategorized and was exported in its own category. Next time the Tome is updated we will fix it. thanks!

bayne7400
February 5th, 2022, 13:10
Howdy! Thanks for the updates.


When building a new character, AC remains at "0" (zero) instead of "9", which is great for Magic Users. When a character is given (unequipped) armor and it appears in the Inventory, AC correctly changes to "9". When the Armor is equipped, the AC does change to the correct number.


Just a few notes.

OK figured it out. The gnomes I enslaved to bring you this ruleset set the initial AC value. They are sleeping until something is added (any item) to the inventory. Now when you create a character they awaken and set your AC to its default value (which should be 12 (9 -3) until your dex is set.)

Dire Weasel
February 8th, 2022, 17:48
Another couple of errors from running my game last night. If needed I can try to find steps to reproduce.

[2/7/2022 9:10:40 PM] [ERROR] Script execution error: [string "scripts/manager_action_attack.lua"]:128: attempt to compare nil with number
[2/7/2022 9:22:25 PM] [ERROR] Script execution error: [string "round"]:52: attempt to compare number with nil
[2/7/2022 9:25:42 PM] [ERROR] Script execution error: [string "round"]:52: attempt to compare number with nil

bayne7400
February 8th, 2022, 18:08
I am going to need some help with the first one. What level and thaco was PC and what monster did they attack? Was it targeted? Any other details would be helpful. I cannot reproduce the error.

The last two are turn tracker related me thinks.

Second one is fixed. Something is going on with default values reverting in FG. When it pulled the value if no value is there it sets it to 0. Should have coded it like this to begin with.

bayne7400
February 8th, 2022, 19:09
Although I couldn't not reproduce it. I did see a potential bug where if the ac was somehow greater than 12 it could throw a nil value. So I fixed that. Since the error was one time and went away I am going toc all it solved.

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 03:21
Here are a couple wishes for the NPC records:


Configurable option to roll HP by HD for each NPC in an encounter. The key here is making the stats less predictable and "samey".
A way to indicate attack patterns for an NPC without having to switch to the notes tab or—quite frequently—go beyond the NPC record to read the Referee Tome. This is definitely the bigger issue because the information simply isn't easy to get at with the provided NPC records.

I apologize in advance, but I'm donning my QA pocket protector now to go into probably entirely too much detail in support of my findings and recommendations.

Attack Patterns and Number of Attacks as Represented by the NPC Record

Gavin's statblock conventions makes it really simple to see what's going on. So much so that when I was helping edit/reorganize the content for another VTT's OGL OSE implementation I ended up just including the entire statblock in notes in addition to setting up the mechanical attack patterns. Sometimes a single line of text is just easier to read:


Black Dragon: Att [2 × claw (1d4 + 1), 1 × bite (2d10)] or breath
Chimera: Att 2 × claw (1d3), goat: 1 × gore (2d4), lion: 1 × bite (2d4), dragon: 1 × bite (3d4) or 1 × breath (3d6)
Manticore: Att [2 × claw (1d4), 1 × bite (2d4)] or 6 × tail spike (1d6)

Let's look at the Manticore. The weapons list from the NPC out of the Referee Tome looks like this:



Weapon
ATK
DMG


2 x claw
0
1d4


1 x bite
0
2d4


6 x tail spike
0
1d6


There's no indication of how these attacks are organized from the Main tab, and unfortunately the Notes tab has no useful information on attack patterns, either:



Monstrosities with the face of a man, the body of a lion, bat-like wings, and a tail bristling with spikes. Love eating humans.

Dwell in wild, mountainous regions.

Tail spikes:

180’ range. 24 in total; 2 regrow each day.

Track and ambush:

Follow humans and attack with tail spikes when they stop to rest.

So now I go to the Reference Manual and search "manticore" and I get a hit called "M and N". Crap... all the monsters for M–N are in a single page without any ability to "find in page"... scroll down... thankfully it happens to be the second record, and now I can see that it's got:


Att [2 × claw (1d4), 1 × bite (2d4)] or 6 × tail spike (1d6)
Okay... so now I know that it's either 2 x claw and 1 x bite OR it's 6x tail spikes. Let's attack with the tail... click a bunch of times... I think I clicked 6 times...



6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [8]

6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [4]

6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-6]

6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-6]

6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-4]

"Is that 6?" Counting... "Nope... only 5." Clicking again.



6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [1]

Alternatively, I could have this for weapons:



Weapon
ATK
DMG


(Att 1) Claw #1
0
1d4


(Att 1) Claw #2
0
1d4


(Att 1) Bite
0
2d4


(Att 2) Tail spike #1
0
1d6


(Att 2) Tail spike #2
0
1d6


(Att 2) Tail spike #3
0
1d6


(Att 2) Tail spike #4
0
1d6


(Att 2) Tail spike #5
0
1d6


(Att 2) Tail spike #6
0
1d6



And this would give me the following in the chat log:


(Att 2) Tail spike #1 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [8]

(Att 2) Tail spike #2 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [4]

(Att 2) Tail spike #3 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-6]

(Att 2) Tail spike #4 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-6]

(Att 2) Tail spike #5 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-4]

(Att 2) Tail spike #6 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [1]

The gains here:


Nomenclature matches the mechanics; i.e. the chat log will show the weapon and the number of attack rather than repeatedly showing "2 x claw" or "6 x tail spike". This makes it easier to sanity check results.
Attack patterns are apparent at a glance.

The obvious drawbacks here:


More attacks in a confined space—it might look really congested and be hard to see what's available.
Scrolling to click each of the tail spike instances rather than spamming a button.
Attack routines are defined via non-enforced convention.
Monsters are already "done" for the Ref tome... nobody wants to go and edit them all.

Information is the Bigger Issue

The difficulty of discovering the information is a bigger issue than the mechanical representation. If I could quickly see Gavin's statblock I wouldn't really care too much about the rest. But the info simply isn't available in the NPC record and getting to it from the Reference Manual isn't fast, involving 5 clicks and some skimming. In the case of the Manticore, it's actually faster to search Gavin's SRD website. However, that won't help with Advanced monsters, and the Advanced monsters are the ones people will be less familiar with, anyway, since they're not just Moldvay monsters with the possibility of a slightly different name.

All of the following monsters have more than one attack listed within the OSE AF Monsters book. Some of these simply have multiple attacks and no alternate attack pattern. Others do have one or more alternate attack patterns. It simply isn't possible to tell what the monsters' attack patterns are by looking at most of these NPC records. Again, note that these are only Advanced monsters.

Ankheg, Banshee, Bulette, Catoblepas, Deep One, Demonic Knight, Multichromatic Dragon (different attack pattern than other dragons), Dragonne, Drider, Efreeti, Eye of Terror, Eye of the Deep, Giant Electric Eel, Giant Mutant Frog, Ghast, Ghost, Gibbering Mouther, Iron Golem, Gorilla, Gullygug, Black and Sea Hags, Hulker, Jackalwere, Krell, Flame Lizard, Monitor Lizard, Malfyr, Mantid, Merrow, Mind Lasher, Nightmare, Otyugh, Phoenix, Pseudo-Dragon, Rakshasa, Roper, Sahuagin, Satyr, Scorpionoid, Sea Serpent, Giant Slug, Snake Person, Spawn of the Worm, Sphinx, Tarrasque, Titan, Giant Wasp, Winter Wolf, Xorn.

I would argue that having quick access to the stat block is essential unless the entire attack pattern is captured either mechanically or through descriptive convention within the NPC record. As it is I'm going to have to take the time to specially prep each monster I'm going to use for a session to reduce cognitive friction during game time, and that does somewhat diminish the value of having stock NPC records already built for me.

The following is a summary of my own personal values/priorities, but hopefully it's useful information.


Ideal would be having the entire statblock in the notes tab AND the attack pattern documented either mechanically or through descriptive convention. No clicks required if there are no questions. (Optional single click to get to Notes to check details.)
Second best would be to leave the attacks alone and add the statblock to Notes. (Mandatory single click to get to Notes and learn the attack details.)
Third best would be including a link in the Notes tab to the specific monster entry in the Referee Tome. This would require reorganizing the Referee Tome so that each monster has it's own record. (One click to get to Notes, and a 2nd click to get to the monster entry.)
Fourth best would be including the link to the record which includes the monster entry without it actually being split into it's own record. (Click the link then scroll and skim. 2 clicks and a scrolling scan for the monster.)
Fifth best would be record per monster and having to search the Referee Tome for the monster. (1. Click on Modules; 2. Click on Referee Tome; 3. Click on Reference Manual; 4. Click into the search field; 5. Scan for the relevant match and click it.)
Sixth best is what we have now: All the steps of the "fifth best" option plus the added step of scrolling through the record to find the specific monster details I'm looking for. (5 clicks plus scanning for the right info twice.)


Don't be fooled by the volume of my feedback. The OSE ruleset is a big part of what drew me back to FG after having gradually cut my ties to several different VTTs in favor of Google Sheets character sheets and using a VTT merely for dice rolling and handouts. I'm looking forward to what OSE2 can do for me and my groups.

bayne7400
February 10th, 2022, 12:31
I am sorry I don't understand the bug. Give me the cliff notes version.

If your asking for a recode of how npcs work that's not something I am prepared to do.

I thought my npc parser places the stat block in the notes tab, I double check.

Remember this is free ruleset. Jolly and I did it for free and haven't accepted money for our work on it nor has anyone offered ha.

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 13:21
The problem is lack of information within the NPC record to indicate the attack patterns. IF the statblock was included in the record there wouldn't be a problem. So I guess my issue really should go to the paid product thread—the Referee Tome NPC records don't provide enough information to distinguish between multiple attacks and alternate attack patterns, and sometimes there are both—some monsters have multiple attacks AND an alternate attack pattern.

bayne7400
February 10th, 2022, 14:08
51416

The monsters in the ref tome have all the information from the book What are you saying is missing?

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 14:16
Let me take another stab at this, without all the supporting detail.

The core problem I want to address is insufficient representation of the monster attacks. Monsters can have 1 or more attack patterns, and each attack pattern can have 1 or more separate attacks. In the OSE books Gavin solves this problem by separating multiple attacks with commas and separating attack patterns with brackets and/or the word "or".


A) In the software, the NPC record, the limitation is that the concept of multiple attack patterns is simply not represented. There is no way, mechanically, to represent multiple attack patterns in a way that makes them visible to the end user.
B) In the paid OSE Advanced Fantasy Referee's Tome the NPC records could have, but do not, provide this information. In most cases there is no information provided in the NPC record to distinguish between multiple attack patterns and multiple attacks.


The problem could be mitigated by addressing A or B, or a combination of them. My overly long post was running down the "user story" sort of problem at work here as well as possible solutions. If it would help I can try to detail the issues I see with the Referee's Tome over in the correct thread for it, but I don't want to waste anyone's time. If it would be easier to chat via discord, we can move there to discuss what I'm trying to get at.

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 14:34
51416The monsters in the ref tome have all the information from the book What are you saying is missing?

In the Referee Tome the information for the monster is provided in two places:

the NPC record
the Reference Manual


The NPC records do not provide all the needed information to distinguish between multiple attacks and alternate attack patterns. Look at the White Ape, the Banshee, the Bulette, the Manticore, etc. You cannot tell from the NPC record whether the monster has multiple attacks or alternate attack patterns.


The White Ape has 2 attack patterns: in the 1st pattern they get 2 attacks with claws, and in the 2nd pattern they get 1 attack with a thrown rock.
The Banshee has 2 attack patterns, each with a single attack.
The Bulette has only a single attack pattern of 3 attacks.
The Manticore has 2 attack patterns: in the 1st pattern they get 2 claw attacks and 1 bite attack; in the 2nd pattern they get 6 tail attacks.


There is no way to determine these attack details from the NPC records alone. It is necessary to pull up the reference manual, search for the monsters, and then skim through the collection of monsters in which they appear to find the correct record. This could be a lot more convenient.

The Reference Manual entries have the full monster description, including the statblock, but they cannot be reached efficiently because monsters do not have their own, individual records which can be linked. They are grouped together, which requires navigation to the referee tome, searching to find the monster grouping, then then visual scanning to find the monster entry. Individual monster entries would be an improvement to this, making it more efficient to use. Links to individual entries could be dropped in the NPC records' Notes tab.

bayne7400
February 10th, 2022, 14:35
So you want "or" inserted? Try making a request in one single complete sentence. You can save all of us time.

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 14:54
Okay: "How do I distinguish between multiple attacks and alternate attack patterns for monsters like the White Ape, the Banshee, the Bulette, and the Manticore using the NPC records provided in the paid Referee's Tome?"

Jiminimonka
February 10th, 2022, 15:07
Okay: "How do I distinguish between multiple attacks and alternate attack patterns for monsters like the White Ape, the Banshee, the Bulette, and the Manticore using the NPC records provided in the paid Referee's Tome?"

Pick one monster and post a screenshot off the attacks it has and then show what you think it should have, that might help.

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 16:26
The NPC record as it is now in the Referee Tome:
https://i.ibb.co/ySKGQKv/20220210-Dragonne-before.png

The NPC record updated with the statblock and attack pattern annotation:
https://i.ibb.co/Rbhbs6w/20220210-Dragonne-after.png

Personally, I think that the statblock is more important than the attack pattern annotation—it will answer a wider variety of questions.

Jiminimonka
February 10th, 2022, 16:53
So you would like the stat block (even though it's included in the NPC sheet) and those extra attacks added?

Roar is not an attack per se, the players need to roll a save to avoid damage, so it doesn't need to be in the automation.

I think you are expecting too much.

bayne7400
February 10th, 2022, 17:20
The stat block is in the reference manual. I'll say in the future I'll make sure I include it in the parser so it places it in the notes section. As far as going back and adding it that is not something I am going to do. For adventures moving forward I'll make sure the stat block is presented somewhere in the conversion.

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 17:29
The statblock includes documentation of the attack patterns and multiple attacks. The attack patterns are not present in the NPC sheets, so there is information missing which is necessary for running the NPC. Your pushback is that roar isn't actually an attack so isn't needed in the automation, but the Referee needs to have the information available to know how to run it. The dragonne gets 2x claw and either 1x bite or 1x roar.

Here's another monster with two entirely different attack patterns. The manticore gets either (2x claw + 1x bite) or 6x tail spike. My expectation is that the NPC record is going to have all the information that I need, and that's not actually the case. If I'm simply missing how it's documented here, please enlighten me. But from what I can see you have to stop what you're doing, pull up the Reference Manual, search for the monster, scan through all the entries until you find the correct one, and then read a statblock looking for the Att details. Or they could just be included in the NPC record and the problem is solved to the Referee's benefit.

Manticore as in the Referee Tome:
https://i.ibb.co/kmX1J1t/20220210-Manticore-before.png

Manticore with attack patterns represented:
https://i.ibb.co/xFKPj9z/20220210-Manticore-after.png

And you don't need the full statblock given that all the other details are already present and accounted for. You could just include the attack entry. But this information is definitely missing from the product at the moment.

https://i.ibb.co/ZzY1wRB/20220210-Gullygug-after.png

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 17:34
The stat block is in the reference manual. I'll say in the future I'll make sure I include it in the parser so it places it in the notes section. As far as going back and adding it that is not something I am going to do. For adventures moving forward I'll make sure the stat block is presented somewhere in the conversion.

Understood. I'll drop it. It's just a frustrating missed opportunity in a paid product. I'm betting making those conversions don't actually earn anyone much money for the effort, so I get the choice.

Jiminimonka
February 10th, 2022, 17:35
The NPC record as it is now in the Referee Tome:
https://i.ibb.co/ySKGQKv/20220210-Dragonne-before.png

The NPC record updated with the statblock and attack pattern annotation:
https://i.ibb.co/Rbhbs6w/20220210-Dragonne-after.png

Personally, I think that the statblock is more important than the attack pattern annotation—it will answer a wider variety of questions.

The Roar information is in the NPC sheer.

Jiminimonka
February 10th, 2022, 17:35
The stat block is in the reference manual. I'll say in the future I'll make sure I include it in the parser so it places it in the notes section. As far as going back and adding it that is not something I am going to do. For adventures moving forward I'll make sure the stat block is presented somewhere in the conversion.

Don't want this buried. Sorry Bayne.

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 17:39
The Roar information is in the NPC sheer.

The fact that roar is an alternative to bite is not in the NPC sheet. But Bayne has spoken and it's over.

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 18:21
The stat block is in the reference manual. I'll say in the future I'll make sure I include it in the parser so it places it in the notes section. As far as going back and adding it that is not something I am going to do. For adventures moving forward I'll make sure the stat block is presented somewhere in the conversion.

If I did the work that I'm describing is there any way to organize the effort so that it could be synced back into the official Referee Tome product and others could benefit from it?

bayne7400
February 10th, 2022, 19:03
Yeah if they were not actually in the product I would add them but they are all in the reference manual (Which is where they belong). Its not a bad suggestion at all its just a time thing. The core RPG update on test breaks OSE pretty bad, so right now I am focused on keeping us all playing.

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 19:22
Yeah, I get that. Priorities. But I'm going to be doing this work anyway to scratch my own itch. It makes it better if I can share it back. Is it possible to share it back and if so, how would that work?

bayne7400
February 10th, 2022, 21:27
Absent you having the campaign file I'm not sure. Thanks for offering though.

Axe
February 10th, 2022, 21:39
Tuirgin, I totally get what your saying and agree it'd be very beneficial to have that info included on the npc sheet. I do find searching the resource document cumbersome.

Also, Bayne, I get that time is scarce.

Luckily, it's only 50ish creatures.

Just chiming in. I'll likely add the info to the creatures and add them to my ever growing custom mod.

:)

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 22:14
I'll likely add the info to the creatures and add them to my ever growing custom mod.

Yeah, same here. The time requirements aren't trivial and I get that. I just wish there was a way we could contribute so that it wasn't everyone doing it for themselves. We could certainly work up the OGL monsters—that's everything from OSE Classic and the accompanying SRD website. But the Advanced monsters aren't under an open license, so no informal community effort is possible.

bayne7400
February 10th, 2022, 23:30
Tuirgin, I totally get what your saying and agree it'd be very beneficial to have that info included on the npc sheet. I do find searching the resource document cumbersome.

Also, Bayne, I get that time is scarce.

Luckily, it's only 50ish creatures.

Just chiming in. I'll likely add the info to the creatures and add them to my ever growing custom mod.

:)


If it is only 50 creatures Ill do it next update.(may be a month). Thought you guys were asking for every NPC record. Can you give me a list?

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 23:37
I gave you one in the very first post of this conversation. It's only the Advanced monsters, however, and it is a mix of monsters that have multiple attacks and those which have multiple attack patterns.



All of the following monsters have more than one attack listed within the OSE AF Monsters book. Some of these simply have multiple attacks and no alternate attack pattern. Others do have one or more alternate attack patterns. It simply isn't possible to tell what the monsters' attack patterns are by looking at most of these NPC records. Again, note that these are only Advanced monsters.

Ankheg, Banshee, Bulette, Catoblepas, Deep One, Demonic Knight, Multichromatic Dragon (different attack pattern than other dragons), Dragonne, Drider, Efreeti, Eye of Terror, Eye of the Deep, Giant Electric Eel, Giant Mutant Frog, Ghast, Ghost, Gibbering Mouther, Iron Golem, Gorilla, Gullygug, Black and Sea Hags, Hulker, Jackalwere, Krell, Flame Lizard, Monitor Lizard, Malfyr, Mantid, Merrow, Mind Lasher, Nightmare, Otyugh, Phoenix, Pseudo-Dragon, Rakshasa, Roper, Sahuagin, Satyr, Scorpionoid, Sea Serpent, Giant Slug, Snake Person, Spawn of the Worm, Sphinx, Tarrasque, Titan, Giant Wasp, Winter Wolf, Xorn.

Tuirgin
February 10th, 2022, 23:58
Here's a list of Classic monsters that have alternate attack patterns.

Ape, White
Cave Locust
Chimera (mult & alt)
Cyclops
Dragons (all variants have mult & alt: bite OR breath is an alternate attack pattern despite breath being special)
Dragon Turtle (mult & alt)
Cloud Giant
Fire Giant
Frost Giant
Stone Giant
Gorgon
Giant Hawk
Normal Hawk
Hellhound
Devil Swine
Wererat
Manticore (mult & alt)
Mastodon (mult & alt)
Medium
Minotaur (mult & alt)
Mule
Nixie
Rhinoceros
Sea Serpent (Lesser)
Bull Shark
Spitting Cobra
Giant Squid (mult & alt)
Stegosaurus
Thoul (mult & alt)
Titanothere
Triceratops
Vampire (alt... both alternatives are specials)
Freshwater Termite
Saltwater Termite
Swamp Termite
Sperm Whale

bayne7400
February 11th, 2022, 00:07
When the new core update hits the parser will be updated on live. It now puts the stat block at the top of the notes section so any future conversions wont be an issue. It took longer to type this post then fix the parser :)

Tuirgin
February 11th, 2022, 00:08
Thanks, Bayne... I appreciate it.

bayne7400
February 11th, 2022, 00:42
Gotta get that in For Dolmenwood. Its a good point and I'm sympathetic. Wish I had thought of it back then.

Tuirgin
February 11th, 2022, 22:23
TL;DR: Use of the Modifier Stack with a skill check adjusts the roll quality as expected, but in some cases the outcome reported is incorrect. It appears that the success/failure report is only evaluating the natural roll against the success target and not the modified roll.


Modifiers applied with the Skill's Modifier field seems to be working as expected. When the field is set the dice roll quality is not changed, but the success target is updated and this is reflected in the chat log.
Modifiers applied using The Modifier Stack occasionally produces unexpected/incorrect outcome reports. Explanation follows.

The following three rolls were made using the Modifier Stack:
https://i.ibb.co/hyVN0xQ/20220211-Skills-and-Modifiers.png


As Expected: The chat log shows the expected, unmodified "20% Success Chance"—this is straight out of my skill's success target value and has not been changed.
As Expected: The dice quality is changed from a natural 18 to -32, from a natural 72 to a 22, and from a natural 68 to an 18.
Unexpected/Wrong Outcome: The first two outcome reports appear to be correct. The last roll gives the wrong outcome report: 18 is less than 20, but [FAILURE] is indicated.

I've done a bunch of these rolls and consistently it appears that [SUCCESS] is only reported if the natural roll quality is ≤ the success target. From the places where I see skill modifiers described, I believe the OSE expectation is that you will modify the skill's target value and not the roll quality. However, whether the Referee wants to apply modifiers to the target value or inverse modifiers to the roll quality is a matter of taste. The math works either way, but applying the modifier to the roll is currently producing incorrect results in OSE2.

bayne7400
February 11th, 2022, 22:40
Please give me less words. Talk to me like I'm a caveman. I am pretty sure I know the issue.

bayne7400
February 11th, 2022, 22:47
Yeah easy fix. Ill update this momentarily.

51451

All fixed. It will adjust the roll not the chance. To adjust the chance you add the mod box on the character sheet. Like boots of climbing etc.

Tuirgin
February 11th, 2022, 22:57
I made sure to summarize the report in the post title and in the first line with the TL;DR. I'm afraid that's as close to "caveman version" as I can get.

I don't mean to be a pain in the backside here. This is what I do for a living: test software and write reports providing sufficient evidence so that our developers can use that to isolate and identify the problem. I don't know how to effectively communicate evidence in the way that you're needing.

bayne7400
February 11th, 2022, 22:59
Your not a pain. Good feedback. I'm the caveman not you. More than ten words I get dizzy.

Tuirgin
February 11th, 2022, 23:05
I will keep trying to pare it down to the minimum. My head starts to melt-down a bit when I go beyond a certain point because every little detail is part of the context. Details will be the death of me one day.

gaijin1885
February 18th, 2022, 18:22
HI all, Today i got a problem that never happen before. It seems that universal loader extenction doesn't work anymore with ose ruleset

bayne7400
February 18th, 2022, 18:25
That is an extension issue but what are you trying to load what ruleset? Hit Damned up on his extension thread.

gaijin1885
February 18th, 2022, 18:28
I'll give him a call. I was trying for play some old classic adventures of 2e ruleset with ose

bayne7400
February 18th, 2022, 18:29
Any 2e adventure should open in OSE without the extension

gaijin1885
February 18th, 2022, 18:32
yes it is true, but i was thinking of convert some 5e edition also. Maybe it is a problem with latest update of module

Ramza
March 6th, 2022, 05:59
Report: Referees Tome reference manual, the "Expert Adventures" under NPC Encounters - Adventuring Parties is formatted as normal text and not a title.
Referees Tome reference manual, Magic Items > Weapons > Javelin of Lightning. "On a successful hit: T" the T is bold when it shouldn't be.

And question! What's the suggested way to setup a character that will dual-wield the same weapon occasionally? 3 copies of the weapon in the inventory (one with weight adjusted to 0) and then mark the necessary modifications? 0, -2, and -4 respectively? Done that way the player will need to remember to click the damage for the unmodified one since the -2 or -4 under the ATK column effects the damage roll too.

bayne7400
March 6th, 2022, 13:19
Yeah don't add it to the attack column. I'll see about scripting this instead of using the modifier box.

Tuirgin
March 10th, 2022, 22:01
If you're still looking for enhancement ideas, I'd love the ability to generate encounters with randomized HP based on the NPC HD. I think the 2e system does this if the NPC's HP is left blank. It's a nice feature to keep NPCs from getting too predictable.

bayne7400
March 10th, 2022, 23:18
Yup right now you can adjust the HP on the encounter.

Tuirgin
March 11th, 2022, 18:24
Right. I saw that. It's just not really useful for my purposes as it applies the same HP to all NPCs in the group—that's exactly what I'm wanting to avoid with randomized HP. So, I'll continue pre-rolling HP and manually overriding in the CT to avoid creating even more work for myself. Seems like the intended use for the feature that's there is tweaking HP for encounter balance purposes which isn't something I ever do. It's up to my parties to "re-balance" the encounter through clever play.

bayne7400
March 11th, 2022, 19:06
You can add the same NPC to the encounter and do the HP assignment there. (You can have 5 different Orcs for example) That way all your prep is done before the game. Each monster has an assigned HP in the Tome so I don't see myself adding this. For the BX converter extension I did script it because sometimes the FG store module is missing hp data.

Tuirgin
March 11th, 2022, 19:51
Right. I can manually drag a link 10 times or however many times I need to reach the correct count. That doesn't cover random encounters, though, of course.

Tuirgin
March 11th, 2022, 20:06
Each monster has an assigned HP in the Tome

The hp listed in parentheses is the average HP based on HD, not an hp assignment. Only <1HD monsters have assigned hp. The difference between assigned hp and average hp is indicated by the presence or lack of parentheses.


Monsters are assigned HD. For monsters, HD is defined as, "The number of d8s rolled to determine an individual's hit points." (See "Game Statistics" in any OSE rule book which includes monster listings. It's on page 18 of the OSE AF Ref's Tome.)
Monsters with <1 HD do have assigned HP; e.g. Normal Bat. For these monsters only HP is listed and it does not appear in parenthesis.
The HD section of the statblock lists the average hit points in parenthesis. This is not a canonical assignment of HP, but a convenience feature of OSE statblocks.

Shen4891
May 7th, 2022, 23:19
Is it possible to change settings to use AAC and show in the character sheet?

bayne7400
May 7th, 2022, 23:21
Yeah I still have no plans to to change the system to ascending AC as that is the optional rule. FG does all of the calculations for you so its really just a preference thing. Thanks for the feedback though.