How do I preserve fog of war when moving a token between maps?

[Carlos]

When you move between maps with tokens the fog of war (FOW) in FGU with LOS enabled will reset.

Is there a way for it not to reset?

For example consider the use case of a single map, with 3 floors on it, and you move characters between sections of the map.

To move characters between sections of the map you have to drag them into the new section from the combat tracker.

When you drag them from the combat tracker to the new section (since you can't drag them on the map because LOS enabled won't let you) the FOW resets.

Is there a way to avoid this behaviour? The players do not want to loose the FOW, which should be something that is "remembered" on a per-player-per-map basis.

[jharp]

Without an extension you presently cannot. I have made this: https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/224/view but like every extension, it involves some risk. Since I wrote it I don't think it's too risky but others may wish to chime in their opinion.

I've reread your post and that use case might have an alternative. I think you can hold shift-drag and you can move tokens without the LOS boundaries being an issue. Yes verified, shift-drag moves a token on the map without LOS updates being applied. So you drag to another area and you don't lose the existing LOS.

Jason

[Carlos]

Without an extension you presently cannot. I have made this: https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/224/view but like every extension, it involves some risk. Since I wrote it I don't think it's too risky but others may wish to chime in their opinion.

I've reread your post and that use case might have an alternative. I think you can hold shift-drag and you can move tokens without the LOS boundaries being an issue. Yes verified, shift-drag moves a token on the map without LOS updates being applied. So you drag to another area and you don't lose the existing LOS.

Jason

Thank you! The shift-drag does indeed work for a map that we're working on with multiple levels in one map. I was not aware that the GM could do that. This solves quite a number of issues for multiple levels on one map.

The only remaining issue is with multiple larger maps where you want to preserve FOW, but your extension does help with that issue. It seems like FOW should be "remembered" for all players for a given image until reset.

[LordEntrails]

You may wish to vote on the enhancement suggestion here; https://fgapp.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=135949

There is also another idea you might like as well; https://fgapp.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=136793

[Carlos]

You may wish to vote on the enhancement suggestion here; https://fgapp.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=135949

There is also another idea you might like as well; https://fgapp.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=136793

Thanks. Voted and added comments. I think that any data on the maps need to not be lost, and that loosing data is critical bug. That data is always meaningful for players e.g. FOW, drawings, squares, etc.

[Zacchaeus]

Thanks. Voted and added comments. I think that any data on the maps need to not be lost, and that loosing data is critical bug. That data is always meaningful for players e.g. FOW, drawings, squares, etc.

The problem is that if you retain the FoW for every map that you use in a campaign the db.xml file for the campaign will gradually bloat until you slow things down to a crawl. So preserving FoW isn't necessarily a great idea.

[LordEntrails]

Thanks. Voted and added comments. I think that any data on the maps need to not be lost, and that loosing data is critical bug. That data is always meaningful for players e.g. FOW, drawings, squares, etc.
Its not a bug because it's working as designed. As mentioned by Mr Z, there are reasons that such might not be desirable. The suggestion is there so that SmiteWorks can see how popular a change to their intended design may be :)

[Carlos]

The problem is that if you retain the FoW for every map that you use in a campaign the db.xml file for the campaign will gradually bloat until you slow things down to a crawl. So preserving FoW isn't necessarily a great idea.

A user story, like preserving FoW (or other specific data), is either relevant or not depending on the vision and strategy you have for the product. Preserving FoW is a GREAT idea if you ask me my opinion, because it is data that my players wish to have retained.

The fact that the current implementation may have problems with this use case is a distinct issue, and may indeed prevent you from implementing "preserving fow", but I want to make it clear that it is unrelated to the value perceived by the customers when the feature is delivered.

Yes, FoW as handled via <fow> with <points>, needs to be handled efficiently.

I would be happy to *never* clear FoW as a "setting" and provide directed feedback on how the growing db.xml size impacts other issues.

[Moon Wizard]

Fog of war is actually a significant data storage item; so you can't separate the two things (saving vs. use). It's not on our current short list, but this is something we'd like to have some solution for long term.

Realistically, it is impractical to store FoW data "forever" for every map ever played by a PC. Long running high-level campaigns would be significantly bloated for no real good reason. (i.e. they're not going to go back at L18 to explore the goblin caves from their first adventure.)

So, any design needs to consider usage and storage as a whole.

Regards,
JPG

[darrenan]

The problem is that if you retain the FoW for every map that you use in a campaign the db.xml file for the campaign will gradually bloat until you slow things down to a crawl. So preserving FoW isn't necessarily a great idea.

How does the size of FoW information compare with masking information (which are stored as B/W images)? It seems like per token it's about the same amount of information, so multiply that by the number of PC tokens which is typically 4-6 and to me it doesn't seem like that much more information to store. Especially if you the GM the ability to clear it when it is truly no longer needed.

EDIT: I guess FGU doesn't store masks as images the way FGC does.

[jharp]

Moon,

In the extension I moved the FoW retention to outside the db.xml. Maybe that would be a better long term retention solution. Marker in the character that is only called upon when that map is loaded and that character placed on the map.

Jason

[Laerun]

Realisticly, is FoW necessary in most cases? We generally don't need to recall dungeons or regions already explored, unless it is at a cross road.

To consider a FoW like need implies more of a video game like experience, which is not necessarily bad, but it does seem like more of a concern over what the functionality of the maptools can or cannot do as opposed to the actual game needs.

If I wandered around in the dim light of my own dwelling long enough, I will eventually learn to know the position of the layout, location, and approximate appearance of my own lair. I can walk around in the dark practically with less risk or concern. I do still bump into things still.. Lol. However, visiting a totally new and different area, with different lighting and only one or two times does not grant me the same amount of comfort or familiarity to move about like I would in a space that I have many more months or years of familiarity with.

Moving between maps has some other things that cannot be helped by normal means. There is an extension that helps with this, but I doubt FoW is addressed in most cases regardless. Not having the FoW memory or transferable might be annoying occasionally, but it's certainly not at all game breaking. If you are the game master, you certainly have the creative license to use the lack of map FoW memory. You have a chance to use the fear of the known and unknown to toy with your group, and this creates more opportunities to tell the story rather than allowing the maptools to mostly doing that for you. FoW is a VTT tool, but I doubt it is realistic or required feature for most situations. Whatever happened to the person in your group that was supposed to sketch the direction your group had been to before.. :-) :)

Quick question and a curiosity, how long have you been playing RPGs and Fantasy Grounds?

[jharp]

Even though I make money from everyone that wants this feature enough, I would still prefer the GM have a choice with the base product. I don't think everyone will agree on the need but for some GMs and groups they obviously want the option.

Jason

[ChrisRevocateur]

Since FG can't handle extremely large maps, I can name one case that is fairly common where the remembering of FoW over a whole campaign is a useful feature: Megadungeons. Undermountain, Rappan Athuk, Arden Vul, "The Worlds Largest Dungeon," etc. Not exactly an uncommon campaign type, and one that currently has major issues trying to use the current FG features to run.

I agree that for the VAST majority of campaigns keeping FoW in perpetuity is a bit much, but that doesn't mean that there aren't fairly common use cases where it isn't.

[LordEntrails]

Another possibility than keeping full LOS data, is to convert the data to Mask data (which I think can safely assume to be significantly smaller), and is why I posted the second idea informer link to the suggestion I made there to create such a capability. Though there are certainly many possible solutions one could implement.

Good discussion and even better to know that addressing this desire is on Moon's radar for addressing at some point.

[Carlos]

Realisticly, is FoW necessary in most cases? We generally don't need to recall dungeons or regions already explored, unless it is at a cross road.
Quick question and a curiosity, how long have you been playing RPGs and Fantasy Grounds?

I do think FoW is very useful for tracking in larger dungeons (as noted here with references to popular mega-dungeons which can be split into multiple images).

Players enjoy coming back again and again to a familiar dungeon, remembering which door they opened, where they went, and letting the map be the "journal" of their exploration.

I've been playing RPG's for 20+ years, and Fantasy Grounds since the very first version released.

In many ways the "map mask" was as simple design that just worked, and for some maps I continue using them.

However, that is not the point, the point is that we have newer features like LOS and FoW which we want to make use of to lift us out of the cycle of manual map mask maintenance.

[Rylan Storm]

All I can say is, run Dungeon of the Mad Mage and then tell me you don't need this feature.

Your players will move between maps so frequently you'll be so frustrated by the end of it.

[Klandare]

All I can say is, run Dungeon of the Mad Mage and then tell me you don't need this feature.

Your players will move between maps so frequently you'll be so frustrated by the end of it.

This one is SSSSSOOOOO true.

I would think that the function of the FoW being moved out of the db.xml is the most logical method of resolving the issue of bloat. Basically each map/image would have a FoW when tokens are applied to it.

[damned]

My guess is that especially on dungeons like DoMM you will regret retaining all the FoW data as your DB size will grow significantly and it will impact your game performance in so many other ways.

[Zacchaeus]

I ran DotMM and never once needed to go back to a previous map.

[LordEntrails]

My guess is that especially on dungeons like DoMM you will regret retaining all the FoW data as your DB size will grow significantly and it will impact your game performance in so many other ways.
I think that's why the suggestion of moving the FoW data out of the db and into separate files (like mask used to be handled). Of course that requires re-architecting the current system, so not something to take lightly.

[Sterno]

Since I say it every time I see one of these threads, I'll say again I'd love an option to remove FOW entirely, and players can only see what they see.

[jharp]

Since I say it every time I see one of these threads, I'll say again I'd love an option to remove FOW entirely, and players can only see what they see.

Sterno, I could see if I can make the FoWEnhanced extension able to eliminate the FoW data while having the FoW features. Let me know if you want that and I'll see what I can do.

As to the issue of moving the FoW data outside the db.xml, FoWEnhanced does that.

Jason

[Rylan Storm]

My guess is that especially on dungeons like DoMM you will regret retaining all the FoW data as your DB size will grow significantly and it will impact your game performance in so many other ways.

I think I'd like to understand what the design philosophy of FGU is and what sort of machines the player base uses. If it's a low-impact application designed to be run on any machine then I'd say there's not much point in investing time into this but, if the design philosophy is for FGU to be the best VTT it can be then we all need to stop quoting performance issues so much. So many ideas seem to get shot down in their infancy due to performance issues that I have to start wondering if there's a bigger problem that needs addressing.

This isn't the latest Call of Duty or Adobe editing software. It's a VTT. I know my group is going to be on the upper end of the curve - outside of D&D we're all gamers so we tend to be pretty decent machines but FGU barely makes an impact now that I've learned that you can't add 1,000 hi-res maps to your campaign.

Perhaps it comes down to DM style or a particular campaign but my players regularly return to certain areas. Yes, they're not going back to the Cragmaw Cave they were in at Level 1 and 2 so I can absolutely wipe that data but there are definitely places they go to where it's nothing but frustrating that they lose their progress.

So, sure, make it optional. Hell, make it so that it wipes by default and you have to turn it on to save it but honestly, for some of us, this is fundamental to what we do.

[Ludd_G]

I'd just like to thank Jharp for producing an extension that address this issue, but also does so in a way that seems to neatly sidestep the 'db.xml' bloat that keeps being brought up as a reason this can't be done.

To him I doff my jaunty hat, and give full voice to my thanks!

Cheers,

Simon

[YAKO SOMEDAKY]

Taking advantage of the hook, from the fog of war, I would like to know if I can create a mask for the ambient light and change the lighting to indicate the passage of time, dawn, day, sunset and night within the masked area and more if I can mask an area that will not have influence of the time of day, like a cave where the light only reaches a certain point of it, the rest becomes total darkness, only allowing characters with different views or light sources to see and I take this opportunity to say that the lighting mask would be perfect with anchoring, that the light source having a "radius" adjustment would be perfect for creating "flashlight" and that a directional LoS would be perfect for simulating levels on a 2D map and I believe even on an isometric map.

[Sterno]

Sterno, I could see if I can make the FoWEnhanced extension able to eliminate the FoW data while having the FoW features. Let me know if you want that and I'll see what I can do.


I think it's awesome you made an extension for FOW stuff and I know how much effort can go into making those, and I respect your right to charge what you think makes sense for it, but something in my psychology makes it very difficult for me to pay for extensions, especially if they're doing functionality that I feel like the tool should do right out of the box.

I know it doesn't make much sense, but it is what it is. So please don't add any features to your extension on my account, since I probably won't be buying a paid extension. I appreciate the thought and offer though!

[thebuda]

Where is FOW data stored? I failed the idiot test by moving some tokens to a new room, closing FGU, and campaigns\Mad Mage\db.xml doesn't change at all.

[jharp]

Where is FOW data stored? I failed the idiot test by moving some tokens to a new room, closing FGU, and campaigns\Mad Mage\db.xml doesn't change at all.

It depends on what kind of map. One that comes from a module will be in the moduledb directory in the campaign folder. The FoWExtension I wrote helps with this FoW remembering.

Jason