50 Fathoms - Scale/size mods not working?

[caballan]

The last few sessions we have noticed that the attack rolls no longer appear to be using the size/scale mods in melee. I did check under options, and under House Rules, the Size & Scale mod is set to Standard. Anyone know what I need to do to get the auto size/scale working again?

Thanks.

[Doswelk]

Given that the modules have not changed for a long while, this will not be a 50 Fathoms issue as such. (Assuming they used to work).

[Lonewolf]

Testing

[Lonewolf]

They seem to working for me. Right now here is a quick and dirty test....Capuchin monkey vs Yellow Back Dinosaur.
The monkey is size -3 which gives Attack -4 and to make matters worse he gets Acrobat bonus to the final result. He is going to need it with a Parry of only 2 !
Yellow Back are Size 4 which gives Attack +2.
Add the scale modifiers and it is -6 to hit the monkey but +6 to hit the Yellow Back.
49304

In the test the monkey can hit the Yellow Back using unskilled Fighting roll. Whilst the Yellow Back has a hard time eating the monkey. We are only looking at to hit rolls here. Damage is something else and despite hitting the monkey will struggle to even scratch it.

This is a quick and dirty test because there is no player connected. To be complete a Player connected vs NPC has to be tested as well.

[caballan]

Odd, I wonder what I have messed up then. Here is a screen shot of Curl (Very Small) attacking an octopon (normal size):
49305 Looks like the map distance is working and knows they are 1 pace apart. Curl's attack shows as "Melee" under attack info, as does the Octopons. What else should I be checking?

[Mike Serfass]

@caballan
Remove the size and toughness effect under Very Small (Minor). That's tripping it up.
You don't need the size attribute because the "Very Small" keyword triggers size calculations and sets Size in CT.
You don't need the Toughness effect because it should be calculated into the creature's Toughness score on the character sheet.

[caballan]

Mike, that worked.

We may need to have the Small hinderance updated because when you add it to a character sheet, it does put the [Size-1,Toughness-1] on there. I used that for the template last year when I originally made Curl to setup very small, and it did used to work. So not sure if the Small Hinderance will now run into issues or not. I ran into issues trying to test the small hinderance and then ran out of time to keep playing with it. Sometimes it worked, sometimes I got weird results. I need to add the small hinderance to a new character and see if maybe it is an issue of me changing the size to many times on curl.

While trying to get this to work, I noticed that it works best to first remove the character from the combat tracker and then change the size. Sometimes the size changes would not take effect if I had not done a remove/replace step. I don't think this is really a problem, just something to be aware of.

I started to check some of the other entries in the bestiary and noticed on cat they list it as "Size -3". Using that instead of Very Small also works. Since that is more clear in the long run on that the size is being used/factored, I change Curl to Size -3 instead. Both methods work, I just think the actual size list will be more clear to my players.

Thank you both for the responses!

[Mike Serfass]

I'm glad that worked.

When you add an NPC to CT it puts a copy of that character into CT. That allows you to change stats for that specific individual (like beef up one of the enemies a little on the fly). Any changes like this won't affect the source character sheet. Which is nice when it's a monster from a published source and is locked. So if you change the size by clicking on the button in CT, it won't update the source character. Maybe this is what happened?

Let Ikael know about the Small hindrance, and he'll fix it pretty quickly.

[Ikael]

I'm glad that worked.

When you add an NPC to CT it puts a copy of that character into CT. That allows you to change stats for that specific individual (like beef up one of the enemies a little on the fly). Any changes like this won't affect the source character sheet. Which is nice when it's a monster from a published source and is locked. So if you change the size by clicking on the button in CT, it won't update the source character. Maybe this is what happened?

Let Ikael know about the Small hindrance, and he'll fix it pretty quickly.

I do not understand what is the issue with Small Hindrance? In SWADE the hindrance states: "His Size is reduced by 1, which reduces his Toughness as well."

[Mike Serfass]

@Ikael: When the Small or Very Small hindrance was on the character sheet and the effect was on the line under the hindrance (as you see in his screenshot) the size was being ignored altogether.
It was a loophole scenario, not a normal use case. It involved size keywords tripping over effects.
I can't recreate this now.
This is the effect where the bug happens until the dev looks at it, then you suddenly can't reproduce it. So thanks for looking at it / fixing it!
If I encounter this again I will note the steps and tell you immediately.

[Mike Serfass]

@Ikael: I found a couple of issues. Just after posting, of course.

Issue 1
On an NPC sheet, drop the Small hindrance.
Drag NPC into CT.
Size in CT is set to -2, but -1 is expected, as per the hindrance description. It appears the "Small" keyword supersedes the effect [Size -1].
The Small hindrance keeps the effect in the description, unlike on the PC sheet, where it adjusts the stats and drops the effect. So you see -1 on the npc, but -2 in CT.
You can change the hindrance name to "Very Small" and drop the npc into CT and see the size set to -3 (or to -4 for Tiny) and ignore the effect when setting the Size field. So the keywords are working properly.
This is confusing in that when creating an npcharacter (vs monster), you'd use hindrances rather than racial abilities, so you'd pick the Small hindrance rather than the Size ability. In that case it seems to not work properly.
Attacks against the NPC are calculated as Very Small, because it combines the keyword Small and effect [Size -1]. This makes it seem to calculate the effect improperly, if you don't know about size keywords.
Since this is a hindrance that uses an effect, should it behave like the PC sheet and use the effect instead of size keyword?

If you add a [Size -3] to this npc, it will now stop calculating size mods on attacks. This happens if you add it to the effects line in CT or to the character.
This could happen with the effect from the Shrink power, for instance. I would expect the max size penalty to apply.


Issue 2
A second issue, this one with setting size. Maybe a bug?
Drop the Size ability onto an npc sheet. Use the effect to set specific size, but don't rename the description. e.g.


Size
[Size -2]

Drop the npc into CT. The size field remains blank.
Attack the npc; the size calculates properly, even though size doesn't show in CT. Not exactly an error, but it could cause confusion. (This isn't the bug.)
Open the npc from CT, adjust the size effect e.g. [Size -6], and it now does not calculate size at all.
The issue is that Size -6 is invalid, so size calculate is circumvented.
Should this instead check against > max size and set to max size? The player won't know there's a ceiling, but it will still "work".

Related points:
Set [Size -2], as above.
Add a second [Size -4] effect.
Again, size adjustments are ignored. Two lines with [Size -2] works, but the total exceeds max size and skips size calculations.

Add Size ability, set to [Size -4]
Add Small hindrance.
Attacks against the npc don't calculate size, because total exceeds max.


Issue 3
I'm not sure this is a bug, because it's understandable what's happening if you understand FG. But it can be confusing to others.
Drop the Size special ability onto an npc.
Change "Size" to "Small"
Add effect [Size -2] under Small.
Drop npc into CT.
Size field is set to -2, as expected, due to size keyword.
Attacks against npc calculate as Tiny.
Open npc from CT, delete effect.
Attacks now calculate as Small.
Open npc from CT, add effect [Size -1]
Attacks against npc calculate as very small.
In this case, the size keyword (or size field in CT) is combining with the effect. It's a matter of knowing to use either keywords or size effects, not both at once. And changing the size in CT appropriately.
Is it possible to update the Size field in CT, and combine size keywords with effects? That may still be confusing if you don't know about size keywords. Maybe totaling keywords and effects would be enough clue? I don't know what would help in this case.

Issue 4
I'm not sure this is a bug, per se. It's a matter of CT not changing the size field when npc character sheet is updated.
Add size to npc, change "Size" to "Very Small". Don't add size effect.
Drop npc to CT. Size sets to -3, as expected.
Attack npc to verify attacks calculate size penalty properly.
Open npc from CT. Change "Very Small" to "Small"
Size in CT does not change.
Attacks against npc still count as Very Small (it honors size field in CT over keyword)
CT doesn't update size field, which could be an expected event and a point of confusion.
Could you add an event handler to catch this change and update size in CT, like is done with the PC sheet?

I still can't recreate the original bug. I was able to when it was posted, but can't now. Next time I'll post the details to recreate it right away.