Help placing Alignment

[DavidSt75]

Hey, all I need help placing this Chars. alignment ok so a description of his personality:
He has an extremely strict code of Honor and integrity that he follows ALWAYS even if it gets him in trouble even if it costs him his life. He fights for people that can't fight back yet he despises cowardise. He doesn't care a flip for laws or procedures though he will follow them as long as they don't conflict with his Code of Honor. For example, he will have no problem stealing something that someone stole but will if possible return it to its rightful owner even if it is exceedingly valuable or powerful and even if everyone thinks he should keep it or nobody knows he has it. But his most pressing reason for fighting is to protect the innocent
so far I don't have a prob placing him at chaotic good but this next part makes it harder
he has no problem torturing those he determines as evil or bad guys especially if they have information that could save or prevent harm to innocents nor does he have an issue with killing them even if they are unarmed. but if someone that's evil or a bad guy shows what he believes is genuine remorse and truly wants to change he will help them be a better person

[Moon Wizard]

That sounds almost more like Lawful Evil to me. (i.e. strict adherence to laws or codes, even if it involves very anti-social activities (i.e. torture, murder, etc.))

Regards,
JPG

[DavidSt75]

but would evil be so concerned with protecting the innocent and defending those who can't
fight back

[Moon Wizard]

Well, he almost sounds Chaotic Neutral then. Basically, I'll do what I want within my "internal" code, with which he doesn't care about anyone else.

In the end, I think you'll find that the D&D alignment system is a little rigid, and won't fit every situation. I think that it can give you a rough framework though.

If alignment is a core part of the version you are playing and affects mechanics of the game (older versions of D&D), then you might need to have his actual alignment fluctuate based on his recent actions (following laws or his "personal" code; helping others vs. harming others; etc.)

And, in some older versions where alignment is tied to the class, and you can lose abilities if you fall from grace (i.e. old version paladins/barbarians); I would warn the player that this character concept would not work according to the rules of the game.

In the end, your player and you need to work out what will work for your game; and it needs to be a give and take. Otherwise, you'll just spend your whole time as a GM trying to reconcile the player's outrageous behaviors within your world framework.

Regards,
JPG

[mattekure]

Alignment is very subjective. After reading your description I’d lean toward lawful neutral. But the lawful part referring only to the strict adherence to the personal code not necessarily to laws of the land which may differ from the personal code. As far as that code, the character seems willing to commit both good and evil acts in adherence of it, so I thought neutral was appropriate

[damned]

i think you have too many conflicting behaviours

he follows laws, even stupid ones, but not ones that impinge on his honour
he will steal stolen goods (conflicts with following laws) and then return it to original owner

he fights to protect the innocent but will torture and kill an unarmed person who might hurt an innocent
but if that person says sorry he will go out of his way to help them

id label him as: difficult, moody and dangerous
who needs an alignment when you are a moody and violent man who uses innocents to justify your violence?

(no offense intended!)

[damned]

Alignment is very subjective. After reading your description I’d lean toward lawful neutral. But the lawful part referring only to the strict adherence to the personal code not necessarily to laws of the land which may differ from the personal code. As far as that code, the character seems willing to commit both good and evil acts in adherence of it, so I thought neutral was appropriate

Lawful does I think refer to the laws of the land/society and not your own compass
Good refers more to your compass

He follows the small rules but doesnt give a fig about the big ones (torture and murder)

I think his alignment varies based on the days coffee and alcohol intake...

[mattekure]

LOL. Moody does sound right. I based my analysis on the 5e PHB definition of lawful neutral

Lawful neutral (LN) individuals act in accordance with law, tradition, or personal codes.

[DavidSt75]

Damned no offense taken he is Moody and Violent and Dangerous lol and it's not that he follows small laws and ignore large ones he doesn't care about any laws and only follows them as long as his honor isn't affected and I was thinking Lawful Neutral as well .....the many misunderstand Lawful it doesn't necessarily mean the Laws of the land but like mattlekure posted can mean a personal code......Basically, he's a paladin that doesn't mind getting his hands (or his soul)dirty

[opusaug]

I will lean in support of those who say Lawful Neutral. You can say "Lawful" doesn't apply to personal codes, but I think most folks will disagree with you. "Chaos" is "do whatever I want in the moment" so a personal code definitely infringes on that. In the end, the alignment chart is what the DM says it is, so your mileage may vary. The DM of a group where I'm a player doesn't see alignment the way I do as a DM, but that's okay, it's his game.

I like the fact that the alignment chart gives players a helpful way to figure out how to play a character, but I don't like when it feels like a straightjacket limiting a player's well-thought out personality for his character. This PC sounds like a D&D version of Jack Bauer from "24". In fact, the part about torture makes me think that's probably where he got it from. If that's the case, I'm more certain that it's LN, because that's how I see that character. And it makes what everyone else sees as "moody" and puts it into perspective. He's out to save as many innocent lives as possible, and that calculus is all he worries about. (Math is very LN, and it's usually not a man-made legal code.)

That all said, here's some constructive advice: there's no need to struggle with this, since the alignment chart is usually just a tool to help role-play, as I've said. In many cases, a character changing alignment only affects how you interpret certain rules, like if a paladin stays in the good graces of his religion or in the employ of his order. And if he doesn't change alignment as you've decided it, it doesn't really matter. Figure out how much that's really in play in your game, and for this character, and feel free to be flexible. Maybe make a house rule that certain characters are exempt from "alignment" per se, as long as they play the character they describe. But if you really want to define a rule to help make sense of things, flip things around and make the alignment chart bend to the actions, rather than the characters bend to the alignment chart. Specifically, use an Alignment Tracking system (https://easydamus.com/alignmenttracking.html). I use that in my local in-person game and it's been great tool to help my players (who are new to RP) better navigate what alignment is all about.

[DavidSt75]

@opusaug....ok it seems some folks have misunderstood I'm not a DM and this is not one of my players....this is my character i knew what i wanted his personality and behave to be I just wasn't sure what alignment that would make him lol....as for Jack Baur and 24 not sure who that is i never saw it so my guy isnt based on him but it does seem they are simular characters cause thats kinda what i was going for Save as many inoccent people as i possible can useing ANY MEANS NECCARRY... kinda Punisher/Deapool/Capt America/Superman combo lol