FG and 3D Maps (FG3D)

[Foen]

Given that a certain d20 licensor is aiming to launch a VTT next year with 3D mapping, any chance FG can be extended to include 3D maps and models?

For my part, I'd rather use FG (and its open architecture/non-subscription model) than throw money at an alternative :bandit:.

I was thinking that perhaps the NWN engine could be bolted on - there is stacks of community support, tools and ready-made assets. The add-on needn't be rule-specific (I don't need to engage in combat), but good use could be made of 3D tilesets, lighting effects and PC/NPC/creature models.

Just a thought.

Stuart
(Foen)

[Hamish]

To be honest, the biggest turn-off about D&D Insider was the 3D interface. To me, RPGs are about imagining things. Everybody should imagine for themselves what the dungeon he's crawling looks like, or just how scary that demon looks from up close.

Of course, you shouldn't leave everything to the imagination, especially when it gets in the way of gameplay. That's why a good battle-map is needed. Everybody needs to know where everybody is, and must agree on weither certain things are possible or not. This is where FG comes in for me. I haven't tried it yet, but I think I'll be using FG in my face-to-face RPG sessions as well, just to get that agreement. It's so much easier to see on a map that your fireball will also hit that annoying fighter who beat your initiative roll again and rushed forward. :)

The thing I did like about the D&D Insider interface was the lighting features. You know, how you could attach a light source to a character, and if he moves away, where he was standing previously turns dark again. Now there's a feature I would like to see in FG! Sort of a dynamic mask.

[Foen]

Hehe, your dynamic mask is the next guy's virtual miniature!

A chat client (like MIRC) should be good enough, but stuff comes along that is sexier and it suddenly isn't good enough any more. Heck, I thought Windows was a sham because you could always do what you wanted with a DOS shell couldn't you?

*winks* I'm actually with you Hamish, just pulling your rope so-to-speak. FG does just what I want (almost, why can't it just...) and I'm not going to jump ship (I have developed three rulesets now, the most recent still in beta, so I am very happy that the product is open and flexible). My point is more along the lines of: there is a potential alternative out there if we want to attract new folks with a 3D front end, why let WotfC take some imaginary high ground?

I'm clearly ranting, so probably ought to go to bed!

Ciao

Stuart
(Foen)

[joshuha]

My point is more along the lines of: there is a potential alternative out there if we want to attract new folks with a 3D front end, why let WotfC take some imaginary high ground?

Ciao

Stuart
(Foen)

From WOTC:
"Our recommended specs for the PC platform includes Windows XP SP2, 512MB RAM, AMD XP 2400 + or Intel P4 2.6Ghz, and a graphic card with 128 MB RAM and support of shader 2.0."

Thats pretty hefty requirements for just a digital table and 99% of that is probably the 3D push. Heck those above stats are enough to run WoW or other similar MMOs which seems to be the market they are after with the subrscription and MMO-like character generator.

[demonsbane]

Given that a certain d20 licensor is aiming to launch a VTT next year with 3D mapping, any chance FG can be extended to include 3D maps and models?

For my part, I'd rather use FG (and its open architecture/non-subscription model) than throw money at an alternative :bandit:.

I was thinking that perhaps the NWN engine could be bolted on - there is stacks of community support, tools and ready-made assets. The add-on needn't be rule-specific (I don't need to engage in combat), but good use could be made of 3D tilesets, lighting effects and PC/NPC/creature models.

Just a thought.

Stuart
(Foen)

Foen, I second that.

Indeed, days ago I wrote something similar here about the same subject (2 or 3 posts):

https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=442822#post442822: "I want this for GURPS"


I think both of them [Fantasy Grounds and Battlegrounds RPG] are easier [than OpenRPG], IMO.

-

Speaking of D&D 4, the VTT of WoTC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m20AJvdzAdo seems to be a bit "toyish"/"gamey" for my taste (tokens have even round bases, imitating real lead or plastic minis!), but who knows. All I know now is I don't want to play with WoTC rules, but with GURPS.

BTW, a 3D VTT, with customization capabilities (importation of customer's modeled and texturized 3d characters, objects and enviroments, from 3dMax, Maya, Blender... or even Poser/Bryce/Daz) would push FantasyGrounds or Battlegrounds current capabilities to maximum!

Yes, I want this for GURPS: not an online subscription, but an online gaming and 3d VTT/Battlemap app ;-)

Really



Now, what is up with 3D Virtual Gaming Tables (VGT)?

As far I know, some people do that (in 2D) with proffesional programs as Photoshop and projectors. But, someone knows something about doing the same with 3D programs (the free Blender, or professional ones as 3DMax) and, again, a projector?

Theorically, one could to create and use tree dimensional character figures ("minis") upon a ground texturized with hexes and inside 3D enviroments, all running with fast render options...

OFC, lacking of a professional-commercial software, at user/"hobbyist" level I am aware the effort and professional knowledge (and money if you use professional programs!) for working with 3D is huge, surely disproportionate for enhancing or furthering RPG activity, but however...


Yes, I wrote this thinking about Fantasy Grounds, and Battlegrounds RPG, wishing both being soon easily open and customizable to fullfill the needs of most different RPG systems.

I think the image has an intrinsical power. I always try to enhance my games with them, sometimes made by me, sometimes by others, and I have been dreaming yearssssss on using 3D technology in true Role Playing Games... I say true RPGs, because IMHO NeverwinterNights, various MMORPGs, etc, etc, remain for me as licensed 3D computer games.

However, that wouldn't be the case for FantasyGrounds having a "3D Map" because it is a RPG Virtual Tabletop, and it will remain as it is despite some 3D implementation. After all, people playing with solid lead or plastic minis instead digital tokens also have 3D views of the characters... Others even add scenery to the battle map to have a 3D view of the environment too... So, IMHO it is the capability of doing the same or even more but digitally instead "materially".

So, using some 3D functionality in a program as FG would be entirely optional, as always was/is using lead minis or scenery in face to face gaming.

Well, this is enough for now. What do you think?

Greetings

[Sederien]

If implementing 3D to FG was (a) painless and took away no development time from my other more desirable features such as more customization in the game rather than through XML or other programs and (b) was an optional feature, then yes, I would agree with you.

As is, 3D is eye-candy that adds a perceived limited amount of information to the game world for an actual heavy cost (additional programming, modeling, etc.).

Therefore, while I would welcome additional features at all times, I don't feel this is an area on which the developers should concentrate.

...

I want sound, even if it's just the dice rolling. ;)

[ProfMarks]

I'm facinated by FG and love it's flexability and customability. I'm a Savage World gamer and the ability to play something that feels like a real SW game is unmatched.

That said, I also work with 3d graphics and would like nothing more then be able to build a world for my players to play in.

I enjoy miniture game in addition to rpg's, and being able to use one engine for the feel of both would be fantastic imho.

I would settle for an 3/4 view where tokens could be made to represent more realistic characters such as mini's.

It might be a bridge too far, but I'd rather give Smite my money and would like them to explore this.

[Starfleet]

From WOTC:
"Our recommended specs for the PC platform includes Windows XP SP2, 512MB RAM, AMD XP 2400 + or Intel P4 2.6Ghz, and a graphic card with 128 MB RAM and support of shader 2.0."

Thats pretty hefty requirements for just a digital table and 99% of that is probably the 3D push. Heck those above stats are enough to run WoW or other similar MMOs which seems to be the market they are after with the subrscription and MMO-like character generator.

actually those are more then needed to run wow.. wow only needs a 64mb gc and shader 1.x support... heck those requirements you listed there are like Oblivion requirements :/

[Tokuriku]

I personnaly am very glad with the software we have now, the only implementation I'd like from what I'v seen is the lights to have a fog of war.

[Tropico]

I could care less about 3D, and really, how does that even correlate to the tabletop experience at all? When you're in a tabletop game do you actually zoom around in circles around the table trying to look at the map in every possible angle? Do you lean your head in all the way until the mini occupies your entire field of vision and the lean back until the whole map is tiny? Do you climb up on top of the table so you can get the bird's eye-view?

The attraction of using minis for gaming is not in the visual factor, but in the tactile factor - that is, you can pick up your mini, feel it, paint it, move it around, throw it across the room. And 3D does nothing to correlate with this at all - at least not farther than FG2 already does. I see it as 'cruft', basically.

So, it's going to have a big effect on the young kids who frequent the WOTC boards, get them to try out the thing in the first place, and for that I commend the whole thing, but any farther than that, no credit is due, I don't think. I would MUCH rather have the modular 'dungeon tile' type map-building feature, where you can build the dungeon gradually out of different minis, that's been much requested, than any 3D business.

[demonsbane]

I want sound, even if it's just the dice rolling. ;)

Me too ;)
I appreciate your comments, people, and while I'm very interested, I want to remark I'm not trying to hijack the development of Fantasy Grounds with the 3D stuff!
I have confidence in the developers, and I want too see the features you mentioned for FG working soon.
But on the other hand, sooner or later, IMHO, technologies are going to be used. Not only for WoTC.

Greetings!

[zifnab69_fr]

I would MUCH rather have the modular 'dungeon tile' type map-building feature, where you can build the dungeon gradually out of different minis, that's been much requested, than any 3D business.

+1
Fantasy grounds is made to help playing Tabletop RPG every where....
No need of 3d...
But some new tools for helping master and players.... as a better notebook for exemple..., some sounds, better drawing tools....

[chiefarchon]

From WOTC:
"Our recommended specs for the PC platform includes Windows XP SP2, 512MB RAM, AMD XP 2400 + or Intel P4 2.6Ghz, and a graphic card with 128 MB RAM and support of shader 2.0."

Thats pretty hefty requirements for just a digital table and 99% of that is probably the 3D push. Heck those above stats are enough to run WoW or other similar MMOs which seems to be the market they are after with the subrscription and MMO-like character generator.

Actually WOW does'nt require anything like these stats lol

[scytale2]

I'm not sure I favour 3D as the default, but I would be really interested in playing 3D, if someone has the know-how to do it for me. The current FG system is so simple, that you can be certain that a 3D system will take at least 10x as long to build anything - good for people who enjoy this type of thing, but more build time = less RP time.

[Dragonstar]

I was thinking that perhaps the NWN engine could be bolted on - there is stacks of community support, tools and ready-made assets. The add-on needn't be rule-specific (I don't need to engage in combat), but good use could be made of 3D tilesets, lighting effects and PC/NPC/creature models.

Just a thought.

Stuart
(Foen)

We've just started using FG II and our "other life" is on a Neverwinter Nights persistent world. Our DM is using Neverwinter Nights to create the maps, etc. that he wants to use for our FG game. He figured out that, with his NWN building experience, it was substantially faster to do that than use CC2 or Dunjinni. And so far, it's worked out very well.

[demonsbane]

And sample battlemaps in 3D! :bandit:

176 175
Click in thumbnails for larger images

At the very least, some tokens as these (https://www.sjgames.com/heroes/) (Cardboard Heroes) could be used as they are:

172 173 174
Click in thumbnails for larger images

For free & good 3D Creation Software, check https://www.blender.org/

[Pheonix-IV]

Frankly, having seen a video of the shiny 3D DnD client, i'd say steer as far away from 3D as possible. The 3D in that looks crap, it's cheap, it's quick and totally unanimated. Little models that float around on a bunch of drawn squares hovering in space really isn't very immersive or even very entertaining.

[demonsbane]

I stumbled with this:

https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/myth/

GURPS: Myth

"This sourcebook takes you beyond the battlefields of Myth, exploring the culture and psychology of the game's fascinating races, fleshing out the nature of the setting, and expanding upon the adventuring potential of this exciting fantasy realm.

It provides guidelines for merging traditional GURPS and the Myth game engine, using Myth II's editors to translate GURPS combat to real-time computer play!" (italic letters are mine)

and in: https://www.warehouse23.com/item.html?id=SJG6095

"Also included are guidelines for high-fantasy archmages, electronic roleplaying, and playing GURPS on the computer via Myth II's Fear engine!" (again, italic letters are mine)

Myth II is a computer game dating from 1998 (I know, there is Myth III, too). Its engine is 3D.

Is this perhaps an example of software with a 3D RPG Battlemap utilisation... an example of the idea of this thread?

[VgnFrnd]

Of all the features discussed in this thread, I would vote first for fog of war, a more fully featured notebook, easy mapping with tile support, and sound for the dice rolls. For my money, 3D can take a distant back seat.

[richvalle]

Of all the features discussed in this thread, I would vote first for fog of war, a more fully featured notebook, easy mapping with tile support, and sound for the dice rolls. For my money, 3D can take a distant back seat.

And drag and drop inventory/items. :)

rv

[Sorontar]

And drag and drop inventory/items. :)

rv

A big AMEN to that Duke RV ;)

[mearrin69]

I looked at the WotC video and, to tell the truth, it looks a little kludgy - like the kinds of rushed demos that game developers used to throw together for E3. Still, I would like to have 3D map representations.

The problem, though, is less one of coding and more one of useability and content creation. Most people don't own 3D Studio Max or similar (legally, anyway) and couldn't use it to model a kobold even if they did. That puts people relying on Wizards to turn out monsters, etc. for them to use on their 3D VTT. I personally don't want to start paying for packs of 3D models in the same way I have shelled out (willingly, because they're nice minis) for the D&D minis to use in real games. It looks like they've knocked together a pretty nice character model maker...but until they create something that gives us creatures, dungeon scenery, etc. I think the utility of 3D for VTT is somewhat limited - unless they fully support it with content and make that content available to users for a reasonable price. Somehow that doesn't seem likely given WotC's track record with electronic product.
M

[Meliora]

+1
Fantasy grounds is made to help playing Tabletop RPG every where....
No need of 3d...
But some new tools for helping master and players.... as a better notebook for exemple..., some sounds, better drawing tools....

I agree, especially on the sound. My best gaming experience around the table, have always been with the help of some theme music. Of course there is other programs for that out there, but it could be nice to have it all in one. Some VTT that do use sound is Battleground and KloOge. It is nice to have a small campfire sound looping in the background when the players is role-playing around the fire.

[Sgain]

The only thing I really found interesting about the 4e VTT was the obvious ease of making maps on the fly with it. The ability to lay down tiles on the fly would be a cool thing sometimes, but then with FG I could just draw a sketch if I had something quick to make (though tiles would look better). I think 'group scaling' would be a much handier thing as a DM, that way I could grab a bunch of tokens and set them all to the same map scale before I add them to the map.

Light sourcing on maps is cool, and something I think should be developed for FG as well as more 'light effect' types as the 4 we have presently aren't enough sometimes (I'd like a darker night, a greyer sky and so on).

I also like the idea of more ambient sound effects; fires, rain, wind, creaking wood, dripping water ect. These are something that I think would really add to the game.

[zifnab69_fr]

For the ambiant sound, somebody say that they are going to creat a software that is able to remote start sounds and playlist on computers. But no news for now