Extension for weapon critical effects

[Weissrolf]

Ahoi.

Is there any extension free or paid that allows for critical (weapon) hits to apply automatic effects and/or extra damage? Or can this already be implemented with core tools (Pathfinder 2 ruleset)?

Thanks in advance!

[TheoGeek]

You can check out my Nat20 extension (https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/161/view). It adds new critical types "normalcrit", "nat20", "supercrit" that can be used as damage types. So, if you wanted to do an extra 1d8 fire damage on a normal critical hit (a hit roll within the actor's crit range), you could add "DMG: 1d8 normalcrit,fire" as either an effect or as a weapon damage.

Likewise, if you want to do an extra 14 damage on a nat20 (like a sword of sharpness), you'd add "DMG: 14 nat20" to the weapon damage or as an effect.

It only works for 5E though, but I could look into making it PF2 compatible...

[MrDDT]

It works great, I've used it for a long time TheoGeek.

[SoxMax]

I created an extension for this in 3.5/PF1: https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/84/view
You can restrict effects to being on crit only, but it doesn't support extra damage on crit. I can see about adding PF2 compatibility, but I'm not familiar with the UI for that ruleset.

[Weissrolf]

Thanks for the suggestion, I will take another look at them. I already looked at Nat20 once, but I feat that it applies its own logic on when a crit happens? Or does it react to crits as defined by the corresponding ruleset?

Same question about On Hit Effect? And how do you define effects to be on crit only? No extra damage on crit is a problem, though. Pathfinder 2 has various weapon effects that happen only on a crit, including extra damage sometimes, but also things like sending a target prone.

And Pathfinder 2 defines crits differently than other D20 based systems. The ruleset already handles these things, so any extension following the ruleset should work fine, I guess?!

[TheoGeek]

Nat20 uses the ruleset for critical hits and adds a Nat20 type for if a 20 is rolled.

For the code minded - it keeps track of the attack roll to see if it was in the crit range of the actor and calls that a "normal critical", and calls a 20 a "nat 20". It then parses the rRoll structure and checks for "critical" damage text on the damage types (added by the ruleset) and any of the custom critical types "normalcrit", "nat20", or "supercrit" to see if that damage should be excluded from the damage computation based on the attack roll.

I'm not familiar with the PF2 ruleset, but since I don't mess with the way the damage roll structure is created by the ruleset, but instead modify it after the ruleset creates it and remove damage clauses that don't apply, it *should* work.

[Weissrolf]

In Pathfinder 2 a critical hit is a roll that is 10 higher than the difficulty check (DC), this includes things like armor class (AC). So there are no crit ranges, you either hit 10+ higher than the DC or you do not.

Furthermore a natural 20 is *not* an automatic crit, it only increases the success level by one. Most of the time this turns normal hits into crits, but it could just as well turn a failure into a normal hit instead (if a roll of 20 still is not enough to beat the normal DC).

So if an extension adds its own crit logic this likely is going to cause issues.

[TheoGeek]

Nat20 doesn't add it's own crit logic - it parses the damage rolls created by the ruleset and based on the custom types that the user adds to the damage clause on the weapon or effect, string replaces the damage type so the ruleset will either include it in the computation or exclude it from the computation.

If you are comfortable modifying extensions, you could just force it as-is to use the PF2 ruleset and see if it works. Just don't use the "Nat20" type.

Nat20 does not change what is considered a critical hit, it only modifies what damage clauses are included (based on the critical damage type that the user added to the weapon or effect) if the ruleset determines a critical hit was rolled.

Honestly though, for your case, you could probably do it natively in the ruleset by just adding the tag "critical" to any damage you want. The 5E ruleset handles this natively and will not include any damage with a "critical" tag on it if the roll is not a critical roll.

But again, I'm not familiar with the guts of how PF2 works.

[SoxMax]

Similar to TheoGeek I'm not doing any logic to calculate a crit, just relying on the ruleset to flag an attack as a crit. One note for mine though is it specifically triggers on the damage portion of an attack since if all the damage is prevented, no secondary effects should be applied in 3.5/PF1

[TheoGeek]

One note for mine though is it specifically triggers on the damage portion of an attack since if all the damage is prevented, no secondary effects should be applied in 3.5/PF1

Ooh...I should check that in my extension. I *think* it would work that way, and if not, I need to fix that. :)

[SoxMax]

Ooh...I should check that in my extension. I *think* it would work that way, and if not, I need to fix that. :)

Always happy to cause headaches for other authors ;)
Its actually such a small edge case I debated not even adding it originally.

[SoxMax]

Edit: double post

[Weissrolf]

I hit another roadblock. Those extra damage dice that only apply on a crit should *not* be doubled (because they already *are* the crit effect). With Nat20 "normalcrit" they do.

So "DMG: 1d6 normalcrit" turns into 2d6 because of the crit.

[Weissrolf]

You can restrict effects to being on crit only, but it doesn't support extra damage on crit. I can see about adding PF2 compatibility, but I'm not familiar with the UI for that ruleset.
How do you restric effects to be on a crit only?

[MrDDT]

I hit another roadblock. Those extra damage dice that only apply on a crit should *not* be doubled (because they already *are* the crit effect). With Nat20 "normalcrit" they do.

So "DMG: 1d6 normalcrit" turns into 2d6 because of the crit.

Isn't that how it's meant to be?

If you want it only on a nat 20, you would do "DMG: 1d6 nat20"

[Weissrolf]

Unfortunately no. Pathfinder two adds weapon damage effects that only apply on a critical hit. But since these extra damage effects are already the critical effect themselves they are not doubled up. It's +1D6 on a crit, not 2x +1D6 on a crit.

Natural 20 don't make a difference in PF2 other than that they increase the success level by one (critical failure -> failure -> success -> critical success). As a consequence critical effect always apply the same regardless by what means a result became a crit.

So what I need is a means to apply effects on a crit, without the crit itself affecting the effect that only applies on said crit to begin with (no doubling up).

Additionally there are crit effects that are not damage effects. Like an expert fighter smashing a foe prone on a critical hit with a hammer weapon. Our dwarven fighter applies persistent fire damage and sends targets prone with his flaming warhammer and "Fighter Weapon Mastery" class feat. So I currently setup two "spell" entries on the players action tab to apply both to targets he crits against. Would be easier to just have that automatically applied via a weapon effect.

The PFRPG2 ruleset already included weapon effects, but unfortunately I don't know how to make these only apply on crits instead of every hit/damage.

[MrDDT]

I don't know crap about PF. However, in 5E it works great =P

[TheoGeek]

Yeah, I had another thought - Nat20 probably won't work for PF2 in another way because it assumes that Nat20s are distinct from "normal criticals" - So, if PF2 rolled a 20, it would be flagged as a "Nat20" and not a "normalcrit". Bummer.

Did you try (in PF2) just adding a "critical" tag to the damage line? Like "DMG: 1d8 critical,fire"? That might get you part way there.

As far as applying a spell-like effect when a weapon hits, I don't think I've seen an extension for that, but I haven't looked, and I only ever play 5E so I am completely unfamiliar with PF2 extensions.

[Weissrolf]

Just adding a "critical" tag indeed does the trick in PFRPG2 in that these effects then are only applied when crits happen. Unfortunately it can only apply pure damage effects, not even persistent damage and especially no CT effects (like flat-footed).

"Attack on Hit Effects" also does not seem to help. On top of not even allowing simple damage effects it also does not seem to offer a way to apply CT effects. On a side note: it keeps rolling a saving-throw, even when set to "none".

So since no extension seems to be available it seems like we have to wait until the PFRPG2 ruleset introduces more sophisticated weapon effects. Thanks for looking into this and offering possible solutions. It's well appreciated. :)

[SoxMax]

"Attack on Hit Effects" also does not seem to help. On top of not even allowing simple damage effects it also does not seem to offer a way to apply CT effects. On a side note: it keeps rolling a saving-throw, even when set to "none".

Yea, damage was never what it was originally intended for. The other parts are surprising though I haven't noticed that behavior in 3.5/PF1. I wonder if there's something different with how PF2 handles its combat rolls? Thanks for the heads up though I'll double check the saving-throw part of it.

[SoxMax]

I found the problem that was causing saving-throws even with no save configured. Though that ultimately probably doesn't help your case @Weissrolf.

[Weissrolf]

Still nice that me looking into your extension did some good. And again, thanks for the suggestions even when no solution was found.