PDA

View Full Version : Auto Update or ELSE!



MrDDT
August 20th, 2021, 18:59
Why are we forced to auto update? I thought the whole point was to not make it forced on us.

With the recent change to auto update, if you turn off auto updates, you are no longer able to use the thing you bought.

What about the people that don't want to be forced into this option? What are we supposed to do?

LordEntrails
August 20th, 2021, 19:10
For everyone coming to this thread. Please see this thread first; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?69987-How-to-remove-a-subscribed-extension

Please do not repeat the discussion that occurred there and caused that thread to degenerate to where it was locked.

Also be aware that this has already been added to the Wish List for the forge by the OP.

If you have something valuable to add to the discussion, please do so. But if you don't, please move on to the next topic of interest.

Weissrolf
August 20th, 2021, 19:18
Problem then is that you have to look for UID numbers to delete them manually if you don't want them anymore. A real installer/updater system is needed in the long run. One were you get some fancy extension real-names with checkmarks to enabled/disable updates and buttons to uninstall (aka delete) extensions.

MrDDT
August 20th, 2021, 19:20
For everyone coming to this thread. Please see this thread first; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?69987-How-to-remove-a-subscribed-extension

Please do not repeat the discussion that occurred there and caused that thread to degenerate to where it was locked.

Also be aware that this has already been added to the Wish List for the forge by the OP.

If you have something valuable to add to the discussion, please do so. But if you don't, please move on to the next topic of interest.

Thanks LordEntrials.

I made this topic because that other was kinda hi jacked from another topic that was about something else.

I want this one to give their thoughts on why this is a good or bad change. What things we can do to help overcome this issue. Ideas of all nature on this topic.

FyreM
August 20th, 2021, 20:25
it ins't that complicated.
just put a button NEXT TO "Turn off Updates" that says "Delete local files" (or some such).
it really is just that easy.

Moon Wizard
August 20th, 2021, 21:01
For the large majority of users, they would download extensions and then have issues "every" time that the ruleset code or client was updated, because they didn't know that the extension had been updated or that the developer fixed compatibility or feature issues. By allowing extensions to be auto-updated just like the client and any other DLC, we are taking away a major support burden both for us as well as the community mod developers.

If you really want to "lock down" an extension to a specific version, then you should probably contact the mod developer directly or download from their public repository. There is no reason to use the Forge, unless you want auto-update behavior.

Regards,
JPG

MrDDT
August 20th, 2021, 21:08
For the large majority of users, they would download extensions and then have issues "every" time that the ruleset code or client was updated, because they didn't know that the extension had been updated or that the developer fixed compatibility or feature issues. By allowing extensions to be auto-updated just like the client and any other DLC, we are taking away a major support burden both for us as well as the community mod developers.

If you really want to "lock down" an extension to a specific version, then you should probably contact the mod developer directly or download from their public repository. There is no reason to use the Forge, unless you want auto-update behavior.

Regards,
JPG

Some EXTs are only on the forge.
This system was no in place before, it has been changed.
This was also talked about BEFORE the forge was even put out that there needs to be a way to not force updates on people.

Here is the issue, we all know that updates can break things (you even state this in your post). However, you are forcing people to either not use an EXT we bought or not update FGU. This seems like a bad option when considering it wasn't like this before. It has been changed.

I'm happy with the forced option to autoupdate if you can ensure that they work. Until that happens, I'm forced to keep them off.
Or untie them from FGU.


Really the only real issue here, is why not just have another option to the right of autoupdate that says (remove) or (delete). So if someone no longer wants a bought item to be downloaded/listed/on their computer they can check it and turn off autoupdates.

Moon Wizard
August 20th, 2021, 21:20
That really sounds like a quality issue to take up with the community developer providing the mods. I don't know of any "mod" system that "ensures" that mods work with their software. There's no way that software developers that allow modding have the manpower for that in general, let alone a company our size. If you look at Minecraft or WoW, they don't verify that community-created mods work with their sytem; you just enable/disable based on whether they work.

Creating some sort of selective auto-updating system is a bit of a nightmare for support and user interface. We had one many, many years ago (early FG2/FG3 time frame); and it caused all sorts of support problems once we implemented layering and enhancing mod support. Basically, users have no understanding in general of what they are turning on/off; and there are only a handful of "power users" that truly understand the risks and caveats.

The Forge is built for the average user of the software; and the expectation is that the developers providing the mods are the ones who would keep them up to date.

Regards,
JPG

Zacchaeus
August 20th, 2021, 21:20
I'm struggling to understand here.

Extensions break usually because FG gets a client or ruleset update that causes extension to stop functioning. The extension authors get fair warning of such updates because they are always put up on the TEST channel for several weeks before they go live. This gives extension authors plenty of time to get any needed update to their extensions done before it goes live.

If you subscribe to an extension today and it works then I see no reason why it won't continue to work. If the extension author makes an enhancement to the extension or fixes a bug or changes it so that it works with a ruleset change then surely you want that fix or enhancement. By not updating the extension you are actually in a pretty bad position.

So I'm not really getting why you would want a situation where you would stick with a broken extension.

MrDDT
August 20th, 2021, 21:24
That really sounds like a quality issue to take up with the community developer providing the mods. I don't know of any "mod" system that "ensures" that mods work with their software. There's no way that software developers that allow modding have the manpower for that in general, let alone a company our size. If you look at Minecraft or WoW, they don't verify that community-created mods work with their sytem; you just enable/disable based on whether they work.

Creating some sort of selective auto-updating system is a bit of a nightmare for support and user interface. We had one many, many years ago (early FG2/FG3 time frame); and it caused all sorts of support problems once we implemented layering and enhancing mod support. Basically, users have no understanding in general of what they are turning on/off; and there are only a handful of "power users" that truly understand the risks and caveats.

The Forge is built for the average user of the software; and the expectation is that the developers providing the mods are the ones who would keep them up to date.

Regards,
JPG

I'm not asking for it, I was just stating that with the forced update (which I've never seen a mod that forces you to update it and not able to use the oldver version in other games) that it's either use the newest update or you can't use it at all not only that, it's going to be deleted.
What is is more so, is that this is a change to the system that was made after we started getting EXTs from the forge. So we didn't even know this was the issue.

This was brought up before the forge came out.

Anyways, your word is final and I will have to live with it.

MrDDT
August 20th, 2021, 21:29
I'm struggling to understand here.

Extensions break usually because FG gets a client or ruleset update that causes extension to stop functioning. The extension authors get fair warning of such updates because they are always put up on the TEST channel for several weeks before they go live. This gives extension authors plenty of time to get any needed update to their extensions done before it goes live.

If you subscribe to an extension today and it works then I see no reason why it won't continue to work. If the extension author makes an enhancement to the extension or fixes a bug or changes it so that it works with a ruleset change then surely you want that fix or enhancement. By not updating the extension you are actually in a pretty bad position.

So I'm not really getting why you would want a situation where you would stick with a broken extension.


Because creators can put out (and do) exts that break something. Even Moon just posted this. Not every EXT works with every other EXT, sometimes an EXT will "update" to add more stuff in it that conflicts with other EXTs. This happens often.
I can take it up with the EXT creator of course however, normally I would be able to use the "lessor" non updated version until it's worked out. Also, there are other issues. Loading order issues, overlapping exts that break. They creator put out a bad version of the ext/mod. (Already happened a few times)
Considering there have been almost no updates with FGU lately, pretty sure what you are saying is just incorrect.

Zacchaeus
August 20th, 2021, 21:34
Ah, ok. I don't use extensions much so I didn't think of extension conflicts. Part of the risk of using them I suppose; but I see now where you are coming from at least.

Moon Wizard
August 20th, 2021, 22:14
Then, I would suggest reaching out to the extension developers to get older versions of the extensions; and manually updating like you did before.

We also have users that specifically don't want to see extensions that they have "removed/unsubscribed" from; so there's some conflicting interests as well.

Regards,
JPG

LordEntrails
August 20th, 2021, 22:39
it ins't that complicated.
just put a button NEXT TO "Turn off Updates" that says "Delete local files" (or some such).
it really is just that easy.
Yes it is easy to implement. But, it doesn't mean the implications of such are simple or desired. As mentioned in the other thread; a) support impacts are real and need to be considered, & b) the current Forge implementation is still be developed and enhanced.

Edit: not relevant since Moon has now replied.
Remember, the devs have never said they disagree with such an option or won't implement it. So until they comment, lets remember its all just us users throwing out opinions :)

LordEntrails
August 20th, 2021, 22:41
MOD: note I moved 3 posts (one of them mine) from the wishlist to here. Let's keep the wish list a list of requests and support, not a discussion of the various requests.

LordEntrails
August 20th, 2021, 22:46
I would like/hope that extension developers start using the Test channel now that it is available to them. This way they can start testing their extensions, and having their users, test in a known/intentional beta testing manner for those that wish to. And for the 99 percent of users who don't, they just get the expected behavior.

MrDDT
August 20th, 2021, 23:00
Then, I would suggest reaching out to the extension developers to get older versions of the extensions; and manually updating like you did before.

We also have users that specifically don't want to see extensions that they have "removed/unsubscribed" from; so there's some conflicting interests as well.

Regards,
JPG

I can't do this. Because if turn off autoupdates, it will delete it from my vault.

I'm not sure how it's conflicting, it's a lot easier to look up the UUID and remove the file from your vault than it is to try to get a 3rd party to give you an old update. Then everytime you update, you have to replace the "old" file back into the vault and/or ext folders.

The issue with this current way is thats its not just an annoyance, its an issue. The other way you might have an ext listed in your "load ext" list. Maybe being an annoyance. This current way prevents people from turning of auto updates else they not able to use the ext/mod.

Again this was stated as an issue that you were looking into before the forge was even released. Now it's gone full circle to have things forced to be updated with no true way to know what is being update, if it conflicts with anything, if there are any bugs or what version numbers etc are. This seems like a really bad way to go about doing it.

I feel like people using EXTs are treated as lepers by the mods and devs of FGU. Are we not meant to use EXTs and it's just really a hassle for the FGU client and not really supported?

Weissrolf
August 20th, 2021, 23:23
Workaround for people who want to keep Vault type extensions from auto-updating: look up the UID and then set the corresponding file to "read-only" access. It will neither be removed nor updated anymore, regardless of its Forge setting.

And here is an idea what an extension updater could look like (WowUp for WoW addons):

https://i.imgur.com/rUULJkv.png

- There is an "Update All" button and a settings option to automatically update all.

- Every extension offers information about the last update, latest version, latest release date, game version and author.

- Every extension offers a "Status" column.

Up to date: The latest version is installed according to the extensions "channel" setting (Stable, Beta, Alpha).

Update botton: Updates only that single extension.

Warning: The extension is not available at the original source provider (Curse) anymore.

Ignored: The extension was locally edited/changed from its original downloadable version and thus is removed from the update cycle to keep the changes intact.

It's mostly a carbon copy of the Curse addon installer and you should feel free to get some inspiration from it.

MrDDT
August 21st, 2021, 00:15
Workaround for people who want to keep Vault type extensions from auto-updating: look up the UID and then set the corresponding file to "read-only" access. It will neither be removed nor updated anymore, regardless of its Forge setting.

And here is an idea what an extension updater could look like (WowUp for WoW addons):

https://i.imgur.com/rUULJkv.png

- There is an "Update All" button and a settings option to automatically update all.

- Every extension offers information about the last update, latest version, latest release date, game version and author.

- Every extension offers a "Status" column.

Up to date: The latest version is installed according to the extensions "channel" setting (Stable, Beta, Alpha).

Update botton: Updates only that single extension.

Warning: The extension is not available at the original source provider (Curse) anymore.

Ignored: The extension was locally edited/changed from its original downloadable version and thus is removed from the update cycle to keep the changes intact.

It's mostly a carbon copy of the Curse addon installer and you should feel free to get some inspiration from it.



Nice that read only trick is going to help me. Thanks so much!

Ludd_G
August 22nd, 2021, 10:38
And this is why I haven't started using the Forge, and won't be able to till I can turn off updates for specific extensions and continue to use the version I have.

Updates to extensions quite often cause other extensions' functionality to break. Thankfully this is often resolved in a few hours/days by the extension developers working together to iron out the problem (as always hats off to the devs!). But that is not always the case. There are some extensions which are integral to my game-flow which are no longer supported, and not all extension developers are so concerned with maintaining functionality with other extensions, as is their legitimate right, and at present if another extension releases an update that will break the former extension I can, by not using The Forge, choose not to update and use both with the level of functionality I previously had. This is not possible with the Forge as I either auto update and break the formers functionality, or pause updates and lose the use of the second extension all together. This doesn't seem like a solution at all, especially as, moving forward, some new extensions are released only via The Forge.

As users of FGU many of us spend a lot of time wrangling our carefully curated selection of extensions (often frozen to a specific revision) to get functionality that massively improves the gaming experience for our players and ourselves and, whilst I was excited to greet the arrival of the Forge, for now, with this one decision, to use it would be a negative rather than a positive for my use of FGU.

Sorry for being a downer.

Simon

Kelrugem
August 22nd, 2021, 12:07
And here is an idea what an extension updater could look like (WowUp for WoW addons):

https://i.imgur.com/rUULJkv.png

- There is an "Update All" button and a settings option to automatically update all.

- Every extension offers information about the last update, latest version, latest release date, game version and author.

- Every extension offers a "Status" column.

Up to date: The latest version is installed according to the extensions "channel" setting (Stable, Beta, Alpha).

Update botton: Updates only that single extension.

Warning: The extension is not available at the original source provider (Curse) anymore.

Ignored: The extension was locally edited/changed from its original downloadable version and thus is removed from the update cycle to keep the changes intact.

It's mostly a carbon copy of the Curse addon installer and you should feel free to get some inspiration from it.

That sounds like a good concept :)

Weissrolf
August 22nd, 2021, 13:00
WowUp also includes both a global and per extension setting for channels (Live, Beta, Alpha), independent of the main program channel (WoW). And it offers extensions from multiple sources (CurseForge, Tukui, Github), all in one package.

It's UI seems to internally be Electron (HTML/Javascript) based like so many modern cross-platform apps. That's a good approach to somethink like an updater app and likely much easier to implement than using Unity.