Automatic Use of Passive Scores When Rolls are Lower

[rocketvaultgames]

Does anyone know of a way, with an extension or otherwise, to have FGU automatically use passive scores (perception, etc.) when a check of that type rolls lower than the passive score?

For example: A character has a passive perception of 15 and makes an active perception check, rolling a 4. I would like the chat box to show the real roll and then increase it to the passive roll so I don't have to remember it or look it up.

Thanks in advance.

[Zacchaeus]

I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for.

And you don't mention what ruleset you are using. In 5e if something happens depending on a passive perception check then no roll is made. If the characters passive perception is higher than the required DC then they automatically succeed on the check. If an active check is required then the character rolls a dice and adds any relevant modifiers and that result is compared to the DC required. If they pass then they succeed on the check. Passive perception doesn't come into it.

If this doesn't resolve your issue could you expand on what it is you mean (and tell us the ruleset as well).

[bmos]

increase it to the passive roll so I don't have to remember it or look it up.Creating an extension for this would be very easy (limit all rolls to minimum of 10).
However, as Zacchaeus is pointing out, that isn't actually how passive skills work in 5E (unless you have house-ruled this).
I'd recommend reading this great article (https://dmsworkshop.com/2017/09/08/dd-tips-using-passive-skills/) on the subject.

[Bonkon]

Good Day Mattvictim :)
There is the "Reliable Talent" extension made by Stv that, perhaps, you can adjust to what you are looking for. :)
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?53176-Reliable-talent-extension

[FyreM]

per a Jeremy Crawford tweet (or redit post.. i will have to find this).
"you can not roll a Percetion roll that is LESS than your Passive perception" -- the same for "investigation"

no, it isn't RAW, no it isn't even in sage advice, .. but MANY, Many tables use this rule.
I am pretty sure the OP was refering to this.

edit: found it :

https://thinkdm.org/2018/12/22/passive-skills/
“Always On”
The nature of passive skills is that they’re always working. D&D Lead Rules Designer Jeremy Crawford explained how passive perception functions as a skill “floor” in his podcast explaining stealth:

“Passive perception is on whenever you’re conscious and aware.”

“It’s always on–that’s the baseline. Now, this brings up questions because then people were saying, ‘how it is when I make an active perception check I might get a roll that’s lower?’ Well, you aren’t. Yes, that roll is lower, but remember your passive perception is always on. So it really represents the floor of your perception.”

“If you make an active perception check, and get a number that’s lower than your passive perception, all that means is that you did a lousy job of this particular active search, but your passive perception is still active. You’re still going to notice something that blips onto your passive perception radar. Really, when you make that roll, you’re rolling to see, ‘can I get a higher number?’ If you fail to, your passive perception is still active. It is effectively creating that minimum.”

– D&D Lead Rules Designer Jeremy Crawford, D&D Podcast 4/27/2017 @ 22:14

If passive skill scores are always on, they function just the same as Reliable Talent.

[bmos]

per a Jeremy Crawford tweet (or redit post.. i will have to find this).
"you can not roll a Percetion roll that is LESS than your Passive perception" -- the same for "investigation"

no, it isn't RAW, no it isn't even in sage advice, .. but MANY, Many tables use this rule.
I am pretty sure the OP was refering to this.

edit: found it :

Interesting! If that's the official position, probably would make a good extension for some 5E person to make.

[Beemanpat]

This is something that always I forget. I'll pass it on to my players to help me remember but an extension I think would be a great asset.

[WinterSoldier7]

I get the point of it, but feel like revealing things I've hidden without someone asking for a check is a bit boring. Maybe I would use the PP to suggest they sense something, but have to make the roll to see if they find out what it is.

Anyway, would be nice to have the PP clearly visible on the Combat Tracker somewhere, in that case.

[LordEntrails]

I get the point of it, but feel like revealing things I've hidden without someone asking for a check is a bit boring. Maybe I would use the PP to suggest they sense something, but have to make the roll to see if they find out what it is.

Anyway, would be nice to have the PP clearly visible on the Combat Tracker somewhere, in that case.
I never use PP to give a clue like; "You see a orc hiding..." "Or you make out the outline of a secret door". But rather it is always a clue that something is amiss and more care should be taken; "you feel someone watching you." "You feel a cold draft." or even just "the hairs on the back of you neck tingle."

That way the party doesn't spend time detailing a search of every room, cabinet, hallway slowing down the gaming; but rather gets a good clue as to when they start to need to be cautious and or start detailing their investigations etc.

[WinterSoldier7]

I never use PP to give a clue like; "You see a orc hiding..." "Or you make out the outline of a secret door". But rather it is always a clue that something is amiss and more care should be taken; "you feel someone watching you." "You feel a cold draft." or even just "the hairs on the back of you neck tingle."

That way the party doesn't spend time detailing a search of every room, cabinet, hallway slowing down the gaming; but rather gets a good clue as to when they start to need to be cautious and or start detailing their investigations etc.

Yeah, I've never really used PP before but that is how I'm going to start using it from now on.

I've always felt really bad about how, on one of my first sessions as a DM, I sprung a trap on a PC from nowhere without any warning or even a saving throw to avoid, just because they didn't specifically say 'I search for traps'. Absolute rookie mistake on my end, though thankfully a moment we laugh about a lot now.

[Tooting Dog]

A ways back I got interested in this and collected a couple quotes allegedly from Jeremy Crawford:

1. "Passive Perception is an option that a DM chooses to use or not. If you use it, Perception checks are typically made only when characters actively search for something, and normally, they're searching because their Passive Perception failed to notice something."

2. “If you make an active perception check, and get a number that’s lower than your passive perception, all that means is that you did a lousy job of this particular active search, but your passive perception is still active. You’re still going to notice something that blips onto your passive perception radar. Really, when you make that roll, you’re rolling to see, ‘can I get a higher number? ’ If you fail, your passive perception is still active. It is effectively creating that minimum.”

3. “It’s always on–that’s the baseline. Now, this brings up questions because then people were saying, ‘how is it when I make an active perception check I might get a roll that’s lower?’ Well, you aren’t. Yes, that roll is lower, but remember your passive perception is always on. So it really represents the floor of your perception.”

4. “Passive perception is on whenever you’re conscious and aware.”

I use this and really like it.

[WinterSoldier7]

A ways back I got interested in this and collected a couple quotes allegedly from Jeremy Crawford:

1. "Passive Perception is an option that a DM chooses to use or not. If you use it, Perception checks are typically made only when characters actively search for something, and normally, they're searching because their Passive Perception failed to notice something."

2. “If you make an active perception check, and get a number that’s lower than your passive perception, all that means is that you did a lousy job of this particular active search, but your passive perception is still active. You’re still going to notice something that blips onto your passive perception radar. Really, when you make that roll, you’re rolling to see, ‘can I get a higher number? ’ If you fail, your passive perception is still active. It is effectively creating that minimum.”

3. “It’s always on–that’s the baseline. Now, this brings up questions because then people were saying, ‘how is it when I make an active perception check I might get a roll that’s lower?’ Well, you aren’t. Yes, that roll is lower, but remember your passive perception is always on. So it really represents the floor of your perception.”

4. “Passive perception is on whenever you’re conscious and aware.”

I use this and really like it.

Ah, yeah, I think I've seen these quotes before - thanks for sharing.

I don't personally like that approach or explanation though, it just raises more questions in my mind. Glad it works for you though!

[Fear Grounds]

That's certainly one way of using passive perception. Though, the way Jeremy Crawford runs games, is not how I run mine. I am not saying that anyone is doing anything wrong mind you. Everyone is entitled to play the game however they wish.

In my games, Passive Perception is used when characters are not stressed/distracted/endangered/etc...

Examples: Passive - traveling along the road to the next town, sitting in a tavern, shopping in town, any daily activities that any NPC might undertake.

Stress causes tunnel vision. Something that you would normally notice, you miss. Maybe it's because of pain, fear, poison, fatigue, lighting, temperature, this list could go on forever.
This is when the Perception Check comes into play. The characters are distracted in some way, or focused on a specific task, making it possible for them to miss something that would otherwise be easy for them to notice/find.

To not see/find something can be as or more interesting than actually finding it.

[Marquis_de_Taigeis]

Passive perception i walk into a room and see their is a table in the middle, I don’t walk into the table and stub my toe
Active perception i walk into a room and see their is a table, upon the table is some scrap paper wedged in a crack
Investigation i take the scraps of paper that are on the table and inspect them for clues,
Passive investigation lets me know that their is text on the paper in a language i can read
Active investigation the size and handwriting of the text is difficult to read but i roll high and manage to gain information from it

In this instance seeing the table is always going to pass and so can go on the passive perception, whilst actively glancing around the table lets me see the scrap of paper and not just glance over it

You should always be able to actively roll lower than your passive if the situation arises for it, i can easily see the table but I’m too deep in conversation with someone that i take no notice of what’s on the table for example

If passive was the base for every skill this essentially nullifies the rogues reliable talent and the bards jack of all trades features (i may have the exact features wrong) but their are class features that can set a minimum number for the your roll in certain skills

And with keeping the active and passive skills completely different this allows DCs to be kept lower and create a more dynamic story outcome

[Tootingdog]

Ah, yeah, I think I've seen these quotes before - thanks for sharing.
I don't personally like that approach or explanation though, it just raises more questions in my mind. Glad it works for you though!

It is not perfect. But I don't want to punish the Rogue for taking the Perception skill and bumping up her Wisdom to get a high Perception score. She ends up being really good at scouting ahead and spotting things and it can make her happy to be successful at this role. This is her skill...this is her superpower. There are times I use it passively without her knowing and other times where I do require, unknown to her, the utterance that a search of such-and-such is being performed. If I think it is beyond her superpower ability of perception, I bump the DC a little bit and hope she rolls well.

This is a game to have fun and not necessarily reflect the real world. I mean, people can shoot lightning bolts out of their hands and have you seen falling damage? I'm not going to squash someone's fun if her superpower is stealth and perception. However, the above quotes that a few have included in here from Crawford explain how the system is indeed supposed to work.

[FyreM]

Want to do something....
Try to do something....

so. i did a thing... https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?70211-5E-PassiveFloor&p=616877#post616877

"Passive Floor extention" for Perception, Investigation, and Insight
(more to be added later)

[MrDDT]

Want to do something....
Try to do something....

so. i did a thing... https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?70211-5E-PassiveFloor&p=616877#post616877

"Passive Floor extention" for Perception, Investigation, and Insight
(more to be added later)

I've been using this and it's working flawlessly, even with all my EXTs loaded. (90 of them)

[Tootingdog]

That link is interesting and is how the rolls should work. I like that.

But I still like actual passive results where the characters discover something they are not even looking for. Not everyone has to be searching for a lost wallet, for example, to have ever found one. And secret doors are going to have some kind of seam to them where light is going to do some odd things reflecting differently from a seam than a flush wall. As a real world experiment, take a pencil and draw the seam of a big door in your living room and wait for how long it takes your wife or momma to see that and throw her shoe at you. Heh heh. She wasn't looking for it, mind you, but found it. If she doesn't find it, she is not observant and her passive perception is probably an 8. If that secret door doesn't, somehow have a seam line, make the DC 20 or 25 and then you have to be looking for it. Sorry for the tangent and I know I am in the minority but I like the passive perception rules. And I like what you are doing here and will have to check it out myself. Thanks!

[FyreM]

Tottingdog, this in no way stops the dm for continuiing to use the normal "passive perception" rules. ie: if a secret door in a hallway has a DC of 15 and someone with a passive score of less than that never says they are "looking" .. they wont find it.

but a player with .. a few points in wisom, plus the Observent feat.. will see it every time. DM's descretion of course.-- it is just another tool in the DM's toolbox.