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Beemanpat
August 8th, 2021, 23:58
I accidently subscribed to an extension that wasn't for the ruleset that I'm using. Is there a way to remove it from the inventory list?

superteddy57
August 9th, 2021, 00:02
From what I could find, currently, you can disable updates to the extension and you won't download any updates for the said extension. This might be a good one to add to the wishlist on the top of the forum.

Beemanpat
August 9th, 2021, 00:03
Ok I'll add that to that thread, wasn't sure if there was a way already and I just couldn't find it.
Thanks

FyreM
August 9th, 2021, 20:44
if the extention is NOT a VAULT type extention, you can delete the <something>.ext file out of the \extention folder. and if you keep the "disable updates" then it will be gone.
(note, yes, i realize it keeps it in your "inventiory webpage" but atleast it isnt' showing up any more on your Campaign Load windows.

Weissrolf
August 17th, 2021, 01:33
Ok, and VAULT type extensions will be deleted automatically when you stop their updates. Good to know.

Kelrugem
August 17th, 2021, 08:41
if the extention is NOT a VAULT type extention, you can delete the <something>.ext file out of the \extention folder. and if you keep the "disable updates" then it will be gone.
(note, yes, i realize it keeps it in your "inventiory webpage" but atleast it isnt' showing up any more on your Campaign Load windows.

I think also non-vault extensions are automatically deleted if you disable updates :) (but not sure anymore though; you'd need to test)

Weissrolf
August 17th, 2021, 10:22
Nope, tested it yesterday. Normal extensions are not deleted automatically, vault extensions are.

MrDDT
August 17th, 2021, 19:44
Why would you delete exts that you turn off autoupdates?

This seems silly. Because I don't like having auto updates on yet I still want to use the EXTs I have.

LordEntrails
August 17th, 2021, 19:55
Why would you delete exts that you turn off autoupdates?

This seems silly. Because I don't like having auto updates on yet I still want to use the EXTs I have.
To free up disk space or to keep your drive clean of things you don't use/want. Each to their own :)

Kelrugem
August 17th, 2021, 21:31
Why would you delete exts that you turn off autoupdates?

This seems silly. Because I don't like having auto updates on yet I still want to use the EXTs I have.

For me personally the main reason and feature of the forge are the auto updates :) So, if I turn off updates of something, then because I do not use it anymore, thence it is useful for me that it is then also automatically deleted, even more so if the extension is in the vault since it is more difficult to identify there :) (but if one does not want auto updates, then it is of course a different thing)

MrDDT
August 17th, 2021, 23:14
To free up disk space or to keep your drive clean of things you don't use/want. Each to their own :)


For me personally the main reason and feature of the forge are the auto updates :) So, if I turn off updates of something, then because I do not use it anymore, thence it is useful for me that it is then also automatically deleted, even more so if the extension is in the vault since it is more difficult to identify there :) (but if one does not want auto updates, then it is of course a different thing)

So how do I turn off auto updates but still use it if it's in the vault?

Your option (not using it and want it not on your HD), you can turn off auto updates and then delete the file manually. If there is an option for me, I'm all for it, but seems silly that there is no option for not having something auto update (because updates can likely break or conflict with something) and still use it.

LordEntrails
August 18th, 2021, 02:28
So how do I turn off auto updates but still use it if it's in the vault?

Your option (not using it and want it not on your HD), you can turn off auto updates and then delete the file manually. If there is an option for me, I'm all for it, but seems silly that there is no option for not having something auto update (because updates can likely break or conflict with something) and still use it.
You don't. Now with the Forge community developers have access to the Test channel. So they can avail themselves both of deploying their extensions to the test channel for wider testing before rolling out the live/production version. And they can also deploy to test so that they can test their extensions against the current public test build before it goes live.

Probably no option to not have auto update because it would be a support nightmare. You've seen how many posts there are from folks who are having problems and the root cause is because they don't have something updated. It's the same thing with all the store/official product content. You don't get an option not to update it if it needs updating. That decision was made because of the number of support tickets not having auto-update would cause. So I assume the same logic is used with the Forge

Yes there are certainly some users conscientious enough to be able to control the updates of individual files and/or extensions. But for everyone of those there are dozens more who would have issues, and probably hundreds who would never benefit from such an option.

Doesn't mean I'm right in my opinions or observations, so as always, keep the discussion open if its of value.

MrDDT
August 18th, 2021, 07:52
You don't. Now with the Forge community developers have access to the Test channel. So they can avail themselves both of deploying their extensions to the test channel for wider testing before rolling out the live/production version. And they can also deploy to test so that they can test their extensions against the current public test build before it goes live.

Probably no option to not have auto update because it would be a support nightmare. You've seen how many posts there are from folks who are having problems and the root cause is because they don't have something updated. It's the same thing with all the store/official product content. You don't get an option not to update it if it needs updating. That decision was made because of the number of support tickets not having auto-update would cause. So I assume the same logic is used with the Forge

Yes there are certainly some users conscientious enough to be able to control the updates of individual files and/or extensions. But for everyone of those there are dozens more who would have issues, and probably hundreds who would never benefit from such an option.

Doesn't mean I'm right in my opinions or observations, so as always, keep the discussion open if its of value.

I understand that some people have issues. However, not having the option for others to not be forced to either have updates (which can break no matter how much things are tested they are not always working and I'm sure they are not testing with every EXT out there in use) auto update or not use it.


I think what I will have to do is make a copy of my vault and just keep updates on and revert it back if I have issues. It's a lot of extra work on things I can't really see the names on but still way less work than something breaking mid session because of a forced updating.

Kelrugem
August 18th, 2021, 08:52
[...] than something breaking mid session because of a forced updating.

I am sure that you exaggerated on purpose; but just to clarify, do not update right before a session, also in general regardless of the forge :) This advice applies to modules from the store, to rulesets/official FG updates and to stuff from the forge :) I'd treat the forge in that regard as anything else from FG :) As LordEntrails said, I also think that the idea of the forge updates is to have a similar behaviour as other updates for FG, so, one has to behave as a user as one normally also does :) Of course, compatibility issues with extensions can always arise and I see why you want no automatic updates then; maybe there will be a solution for this, but until then this compatibility problem may be avoided by reducing the number of extensions or by not pressing the update button until one checked all the release notes of all extensions etc. (or keeping the vault file as you said)

MrDDT
August 18th, 2021, 09:04
I am sure that you exaggerated on purpose; but just to clarify, do not update right before a session, also in general regardless of the forge :) This advice applies to modules from the store, to rulesets/official FG updates and to stuff from the forge :) I'd treat the forge in that regard as anything else from FG :) As LordEntrails said, I also think that the idea of the forge updates is to have a similar behaviour as other updates for FG, so, one has to behave as a user as one normally also does :) Of course, compatibility issues with extensions can always arise and I see why you want no automatic updates then; maybe there will be a solution for this, but until then this compatibility problem may be avoided by reducing the number of extensions or by not pressing the update button until one checked all the release notes of all extensions etc. (or keeping the vault file as you said)

There are no release notes, there is no notice on when an update to a file happens UNLESS they take an extra step (and I find it) to note somewhere that there is an update to the the file. Then again, I have to hope that file works. Because if you don't you can't roll it back. (Unless again I take an extra step and try to save a file that I can't really see the name on, tucked away in a "vault" folder going by UUID, which doesn't have any real dates on it to tell you what the version or updated date is, only a download date)

So what you are asking me to do is go back worse to less EXTs than I was doing on DMsG. I still think its really silly to force people into auto updating or not able to use the an ext they bought, because it will auto delete on an update. Because some people can't figure out how to turn on auto updates (which is on by default) for ext.


I agree, I wouldn't update mid session. I was being dramatic. =P

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 09:07
Then please give us an overview of what is being updated. Things scroll through so fast in that update window and it just vanishes at the end with no chance to scroll back. We are working with extensions that we don't know when they were updated and thus may cause problems due to (unknown) changes.

Trenloe
August 18th, 2021, 09:12
The House of Healing - Forge forum has a Wish list sticky thread. I recommend any requests for new/changed Forge functionality is posted there.

Kelrugem
August 18th, 2021, 09:12
There are no release notes, there is no notice on when an update to a file happens UNLESS they take an extra step (and I find it) to note somewhere that there is an update to the the file. Then again, I have to hope that file works. Because if you don't you can't roll it back. (Unless again I take an extra step and try to save a file that I can't really see the name on, tucked away in a "vault" folder going by UUID, which doesn't have any real dates on it to tell you what the version or updated date is, only a download date)

So what you are asking me to do is go back worse to less EXTs than I was doing on DMsG. I still think its really silly to force people into auto updating or not able to use the an ext they bought, because it will auto delete on an update. Because some people can't figure out how to turn on auto updates (which is on by default) for ext.


I agree, I wouldn't update mid session. I was being dramatic. =P

:p

With "release notes" I mean that you need to check the thread of the extension here on the forum for updates; in my opinion devs should still use such threads for announcing updates :) (so, basically what you called a "note somewhere", this is for me the release notes :D FG's release notes are also just forum posts :D)

I have by far not so many extensions as you or some other 5e users, hence, I didn't run into any problem so far. The dev by the way has a rollback feature for extensions; I am not sure whether there are plans to have similar stuff for users, though that is still a lot of hassle for users given that number of extensions you have. For this it would be nice if the forge would give a note about what gets updates (and I actually have a wishlist item in the forge and the official wishlist about improving the communication about updates, so, it is not like that I do not agree on that the communication about updates could be improved) :)

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 09:57
If we have to check the forum to even get an update notification what use does the Forge have for users then? Once I have to visit a forum thread I could just click the download button right there, not much of an improvement for me as a user then. And with DMS Guild updates I could at least use their desktop update software to check for updates of all my purchased extensions and decide for each one if I want to download them.

Forge updates are handled very basic and far from how they should be. A real updater would list all updated components, let the user decide which to get (or not) and maybe even provide a link to release notes. Instead we have a single update button that does not even seem to light up for Forge updates, then a fast scrolling small text window rushes through stuff and closes at the end without user-interaction.

UI/UX remains the main weakness of anything SW/FG.

Kelrugem
August 18th, 2021, 10:05
If we have to check the forum to even get an update notification what use does the Forge have for users then? Once I have to visit a forum thread I could just click the download button right there, not much of an improvement for me as a user then. And with DMS Guild updates I could at least use their desktop update software to check for updates of all my purchased extensions and decide for each one if I want to download them.

Forge updates are handled very basic and far from how they should be. A real updater would list all updated components, let the user decide which to get (or not) and maybe even provide a link to release notes. Instead we have a single update button that does not even seem to light up for Forge updates, then a fast scrolling small text window rushes through stuff and closes at the end without user-interaction.

UI/UX remains the main weakness of anything SW/FG.

But not everyone visits the forum all the time, even not after major updates. As a community dev I often had to face support questions about why this and that did not work, and really the upmost of the time this was due to an old version of the extension. Sometimes even a year (!) old although I updated my extension very often :) (not to blame the user of course, not everyone likes to use the forum all the time)

I agree, for users who are very active in the forum there is not a lot of gain currently besides that the forge updates all updated extensions at once (in the forum you need to click the download link for each extension separately which certainly takes more time). But for devs like me it makes the support stuff certainly easier as also LordEntrails mentioned above :) The forge was mainly created because of the dilemma with extensions and DMsGuild and because of the support problems when people use old extensions. Do not forget that not everyone is like us who are very often in the forums, not everyone is immediately aware of updates of extensions :)

And I actually also already wished for release notes here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?69802-Fantasy-Grounds-Forge-Wish-List&p=614463&viewfull=1#post614463 (for the forge; for the main updates I have somewhere a wishlist item)

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 10:16
You misunderstood my point. I am not suggesting for everyone to visit the forum, on the contrary. My answer was about this:


With "release notes" I mean that you need to check the thread of the extension here on the forum for updates; in my opinion devs should still use such threads for announcing updates
If we users still have to check forum threads for update notes or even notification that an update happened then we don't need the Forge.

Please tell me which of my Forge extensions was updated today (animated GIF)?
https://i.imgur.com/mHwpkgS.gif

FyreM
August 18th, 2021, 10:27
the simplyest answer is to change it so that if a VAULT based extention is set to Dont Update, ASK THE USER if they want to delete it... do not just delete it "for" them.
there.
done
war OVER.
really, it is that simple.

Kelrugem
August 18th, 2021, 10:32
You misunderstood my point. I am not suggesting for everyone to visit the forum, on the contrary. My answer was about this:


If we users still have to check forum threads for update notes or even notification that an update happened then we don't need the Forge.

Please tell me which of my Forge extensions was updated today (animated GIF)?
https://i.imgur.com/mHwpkgS.gif

You misunderstand me, for the release notes use the forum, even you wrote above that FG could provide links to the forum posts about that :) Therefore I provided the link to my wishlist request where I wrote that it would be nice if FG would automatically notify the users about what got updated and then provide a link towards an release note of the dev :) That is certainly a difference since the current solution requires the user to do that on their own, manually


A real updater would list all updated components, let the user decide which to get (or not) and maybe even provide a link to release notes.

So, I was actually just agreeing with you, besides that I pointed out that for the community devs the forge certainly simplifies support problems regarding old versions :)

With my general answer which you cited I meant that there is probably no solution avoiding the forums for release notes otherwise it just adds to the maintenance of SmiteWorks if they need to add dev notes somewhere.

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 10:37
the simplyest answer is to change it so that if a VAULT based extention is set to Dont Update, ASK THE USER if they want to delete it... do not just delete it "for" them.
Main problem is losing overview. Vault extensions use UID numbers as names, users have a hard time identifying which file belongs to which extension. So if you ever want to clean up your mess of vault extensions then it's going to be quite a tedious act.

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 10:40
With my general answer which you cited I meant that there is probably no solution avoiding the forums for release notes otherwise it just adds to the maintenance of SmiteWorks if they need to add dev notes somewhere.
Links to forum release notes should be fine as long as any such links are offered. Currently we have to manually check the forum to even get to know about updates happening, because the updater is currently useless in providing such information.

Kelrugem
August 18th, 2021, 10:47
Links to forum release notes should be fine as long as any such links are offered. Currently we have to manually check the forum to even get to know about updates happening, because the updater is currently useless in providing such information.

yup, as said I agree that for users it doesn't change so much (except maybe for those who are not so interested into release notes at all since they're satisfied with what they already have; for these automatic updates like that may be okay because of compatibility towards FG) :) So, I never completely disagreed, I just wanted to point out that for devs like me it makes certain things easier :D We'll see what the forge will provide for users in the future :)

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 10:54
I just had a vault extension being updated via Forge, which seems to have broken some functionality. Turns out that the same extension was still present in my Extensions folder, because I originally bought it on DMS. No idea which of the two was active when I started FGU, but based on the now broken functionality I suspect that the Vault one takes precedence.

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 11:02
Forget about my last post. The functionality kept behaving wonky with every try and it turned out that the Vault does *not* take precedence over the Extensions folder. So the old DMS version of the Extensions folder was still used despite of the Vault holding a more current update.

Trenloe
August 18th, 2021, 11:11
Forget about my last post. The functionality kept behaving wonky with every try and it turned out that the Vault does *not* take precedence over the Extensions folder. So the old DMS version of the Extensions folder was still used despite of the Vault holding a more current update.
Standard functionality - see here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996644323/Data+Files+Overview#Extensions

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 11:21
If only we users would look more often into the Developer guides. Life could be so easy. :p

Trenloe
August 18th, 2021, 11:44
If only we users would look more often into the Developer guides. Life could be so easy. :p
It's already really easy - go the the Wiki and use the search bar - enter "extension directory" or "extension files" or "extension use", etc.. That page I linked came top for all of those searches.

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 11:49
Yes, every time when for any of my software a new version comes up or a new functionality is introduced - like say, the Forge/Vault - I go search in Wikis. That's how every software-maker out there ensures that their users understand software functionality.

Funny how often we are reminded that FGU is created from a developers points of view instead of a users point of view.

Trenloe
August 18th, 2021, 11:58
Yes, every time when for any of my software a new version comes up or a new functionality is introduced - like say, the Forge/Vault - I go search in Wikis. That's how every software-maker out there ensures that their users understand software functionality.
It needs to be documented somewhere. Like it or not, the primary place for FGU is the Wiki. If you don't understand something - in this example the priority of extension loading, then you can go to the Wiki and search for an answer, rather than waste time trying to work it out for yourself and thinking things are "wonky". Using a searchable Wiki is pretty standard for many, many, many software products. I don't know why you're complaining about the answer to your issue being readily available - Wiki -> Search - Life is pretty easy!

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 12:30
The "wonky" part was about the extension behavior changing time and again when I tested it. This change in behavior was one reason why I thought I was working with the updated version, when I was not.

As a user I had no idea that I even had to look up priority of extension loading, because I never had to deal with the Vault before and wouldn't even know what to look for.

You will not get out of your developers head anyway, so there is little use in discussing the users' view on things. Myriads of software companies set good example on how to do things, I suggest some copy & paste on UI and UX ideas from them as SW's strength clearly lies in other fields.

Zarestia
August 18th, 2021, 14:38
@Weissrolf: If you're so dissatisfied that you have to derail another thread with some snarky generalized comments, it might be better just drop it and leave. Not every product/software/game is for everyone and that is fine. One shouldn't use this to spread negativity and hate.

Most complex business software has some sort of wiki or knowledge base. GitHub projects have their release notes (if any) in the releases section of GitHub. R20 has a wiki, Foundry has a KB. This ordeal is just arguing for the sake of arguing, it helps no one.

Here is the Forge wishlist as Trenloe posted 15 posts ago. If you've got some ideas / wishes how things should work, post them there. I'm pretty sure the how-to removal of subscriptions and some sort of better visualization for what's been updated was already posted over there (atleast I posted that in my feedback).

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?69987-How-to-remove-a-subscribed-extension&p=615920&viewfull=1#post615920

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 14:48
The thread was answered in reply #1 "no can do!" and other treads already. It then changed into a discussion about the current "workarounds" and then generall discussion about the handling of updates and file-deletion.

LordEntrails
August 18th, 2021, 19:07
Note, if you want to know what the updater updates, then read the updaterengine.log file. Yes the file is hard to read. If you want it's format changed, add it to the Wish List, either the FG one or the Forge one as appropriate.

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 20:02
Yes, I will do that. But currently my priority is on lighting and LoS in my home, so it will have to wait until I can push that update first.

Hard to read is a bit of an understatement, maybe. Even more so when filenames are UID numbers, so it doesn't tell you anything anyway.

Checking for Forge subscriptions...
Getting Forge subscriptions...
3 Response received: {"products":[{"id":"82","name":"45d5d1d4-e98f-11eb-8c52-0050562be458","type":"WORKSHOP","location":"1","buildNums":["1"],"size":"4193"},{"id":"50","name":"945c30b8-d73e-11eb-8c52-0050562be458","type":"WORKSHOP","location":"2","buildNums":["4"],"size":"2121"},{"id":"163","name":"d37e4752-f0ea-11eb-8c52-0050562be458","type":"WORKSHOP","location":"2","buildNums":["1"],"size":"1758"},{"id":"172","name":"c4f91ace-f840-11eb-8c52-0050562be458","type":"WORKSHOP","location":"2","buildNums":["4"],"size":"18696"},{"id":"67","name":"67cebd42-e385-11eb-8c52-0050562be458","type":"WORKSHOP","location":"1","buildNums":["4"],"size":"195243"},{"id":"149","name":"e66f6712-eef4-11eb-8c52-0050562be458","type":"WORKSHOP","location":"2","buildNums":["5"],"size":"58236"}]}
Found 6 Forge subscriptions

Lo Zeno
August 18th, 2021, 20:36
Weissrolf tone is always... abrasive, but it's not helping anyone to dismiss his concerns without acknowledging that, at times, he's not wrong.
He's not suggesting to remove the wiki - the wiki is an amazing tool, for someone who knows what they need to search (this is key); it's of little use, unfortunately, for a new user who approaches the game for the first time and wants to figure out why his players can only see a weird star-shaped part of the map and doesn't know that the feature that blocks the character's visibility when there's a wall is called "Line of Sight". If one doesn't know what to put in that search bar, it's like navigating the desert with a map but without a compass. Also, saying "but other softwares do the same" does not help the discussion: if everyone else is jumping off the cliff doesn't automatically mean it's a good idea (it usually is, because if everyone is jumping off a cliff it might mean that they're running away from a fire for example, but not always).
Likewise, suggesting to use the logs to get some information is not the correct answer: logs are for developers (these are not my words, they come from every "Software Design Principles" book out there), they need to contain as much information as possible to help developers diagnose and debug issues, and they are written in a way that helps developers identify quickly in what part of the codebase/pipeline the issue is happening. Suggesting to change the format of the logs is like suggesting to cripple a very useful tool for the devs. No can do.

At times, it feels like every experienced user of FGU, who went through the pain of learning how to use this tool effectively, wants every new user of this software to go through the same exact pain, and not have things any easier or it would be an affront to themselves and the effort they put into learning - a very get eff meh lewn mentality.
You can't expect people to read the wiki and the changelog of FGU, every module they purchased on the shop, and every extension they got from the Forge, each time there's a red border on the "Check for Updates" button: people want to play RPGs, not spend hours tracking down what changes have happened. you might say "well, they're lazy" and you wouldn't be wrong; but if there is a real interest in keeping the userbase growing, instead of having people migrate to other VTT, there's a bit of work to do in designing a software with the user in mind. The barrier at the entry is already high for the average PC user, having to become aware of the ~\AppData folder (which 90% of Windows users are blissfully anaware of) for example, and the fact if one is not reading the forums they do not become aware of new features (when the Lighting update came, lots of people did not even notice; weeks after the update was released, there was an influx of new users creating account just to ask why things were dark or why "my users see a grey shadow where they already explored" - because none of them noticed that the new feature was there).
This is not a problem limited to FGU of course, but several other popular softwares have found solutions to this: for example, when an update introduces new features in an app on your phone, you're likely to see a popup window the first time you open the app detailing you what new functionality has been introduced (in a language that is simple and understandable by normal users, not in techno jargon); some even go the extra mile and show animations on how to access the new functionality and how to use it.

Not showing what has been updated after an update is a symptom of not designing the software with the user in mind. I wish there was a kinder way of saying it, but there isn't. A user shouldn't be forced to leave the confine of the application they are using (e.g. to look for the logs) to find out an essential piece of information, and a user shouldn't be drowned in useless information (e.g. the acronyms and GUIDs flowing across the FGU updater screen) when they look for crucial pieces of information.
Now imagine if: the FGU updater did not shut down immediately after the update is complete, and instead of unintelligible acronyms (like WOTCDNDROTFM) it showed the actual titles of the modules being updated (like "D&D's Rhyme Of The Frost Mayden"); and instead of long GUID, it showed the names of the extensions downloaded from the Forge. Two small changes, easy to make (or apparently easy, at least looking from my side of the screen), but which would bring a MASSIVE quality-of-life improvement to the application.

That's just an example, and I could spend weeks discussing user-focused approaches to design, UX, and all the new fancy acronyms that stand for "make this easy to use", but I've already derailed the discussion long enough and I think I've pushed my luck enough already.

MrDDT
August 18th, 2021, 20:41
Note, if you want to know what the updater updates, then read the updaterengine.log file. Yes the file is hard to read. If you want it's format changed, add it to the Wish List, either the FG one or the Forge one as appropriate.

Or maybe just go back to the way it was before they started deleting EXTs on "update", because a few people some reason turned off "autoupdate" and didn't get updates.

The next bit you talk about "read the form thread of ext" well it's not required to have a forum thread nor is it required for it to be updated.

Now this is already been put out as I've bought stuff here. My choice was made BEFORE the changes. So now I'm at a cross roads of having a file auto update, or not be able to use it. Which is super silly because it makes zero sense to delete them if you turn off auto updates.
Instead of changing to a worse system, why not just tell the people to turn back on autoupdate to get the update. (Assuming it's correct that lots of people were having this issue, maybe make a post about it in FAQ?)


For me the worst part of all this was, this was talked about BEFORE the forge was even coded. The fact you can't tell what EXT is in a vault or data also give pause to do anything. I guess you have to hope there is a forum post on it and hope that the creator doesn't change their mind after you already bought the EXT. These seem like really bad choices for the consumer. Pushing us more and more away from not using either product.

Kelrugem
August 18th, 2021, 21:00
Weissrolf tone is always... abrasive, but it's not helping anyone to dismiss his concerns without acknowledging that, at times, he's not wrong.
He's not suggesting to remove the wiki - the wiki is an amazing tool, for someone who knows what they need to search (this is key); it's of little use, unfortunately, for a new user who approaches the game for the first time and wants to figure out why his players can only see a weird star-shaped part of the map and doesn't know that the feature that blocks the character's visibility when there's a wall is called "Line of Sight". If one doesn't know what to put in that search bar, it's like navigating the desert with a map but without a compass. Also, saying "but other softwares do the same" does not help the discussion: if everyone else is jumping off the cliff doesn't automatically mean it's a good idea (it usually is, because if everyone is jumping off a cliff it might mean that they're running away from a fire for example, but not always).
Likewise, suggesting to use the logs to get some information is not the correct answer: logs are for developers (these are not my words, they come from every "Software Design Principles" book out there), they need to contain as much information as possible to help developers diagnose and debug issues, and they are written in a way that helps developers identify quickly in what part of the codebase/pipeline the issue is happening. Suggesting to change the format of the logs is like suggesting to cripple a very useful tool for the devs. No can do.

At times, it feels like every experienced user of FGU, who went through the pain of learning how to use this tool effectively, wants every new user of this software to go through the same exact pain, and not have things any easier or it would be an affront to themselves and the effort they put into learning - a very get eff meh lewn mentality.
You can't expect people to read the wiki and the changelog of FGU, every module they purchased on the shop, and every extension they got from the Forge, each time there's a red border on the "Check for Updates" button: people want to play RPGs, not spend hours tracking down what changes have happened. you might say "well, they're lazy" and you wouldn't be wrong; but if there is a real interest in keeping the userbase growing, instead of having people migrate to other VTT, there's a bit of work to do in designing a software with the user in mind. The barrier at the entry is already high for the average PC user, having to become aware of the ~\AppData folder (which 90% of Windows users are blissfully anaware of) for example, and the fact if one is not reading the forums they do not become aware of new features (when the Lighting update came, lots of people did not even notice; weeks after the update was released, there was an influx of new users creating account just to ask why things were dark or why "my users see a grey shadow where they already explored" - because none of them noticed that the new feature was there).
This is not a problem limited to FGU of course, but several other popular softwares have found solutions to this: for example, when an update introduces new features in an app on your phone, you're likely to see a popup window the first time you open the app detailing you what new functionality has been introduced (in a language that is simple and understandable by normal users, not in techno jargon); some even go the extra mile and show animations on how to access the new functionality and how to use it.

Not showing what has been updated after an update is a symptom of not designing the software with the user in mind. I wish there was a kinder way of saying it, but there isn't. A user shouldn't be forced to leave the confine of the application they are using (e.g. to look for the logs) to find out an essential piece of information, and a user shouldn't be drowned in useless information (e.g. the acronyms and GUIDs flowing across the FGU updater screen) when they look for crucial pieces of information.
Now imagine if: the FGU updater did not shut down immediately after the update is complete, and instead of unintelligible acronyms (like WOTCDNDROTFM) it showed the actual titles of the modules being updated (like "D&D's Rhyme Of The Frost Mayden"); and instead of long GUID, it showed the names of the extensions downloaded from the Forge. Two small changes, easy to make (or apparently easy, at least looking from my side of the screen), but which would bring a MASSIVE quality-of-life improvement to the application.

That's just an example, and I could spend weeks discussing user-focused approaches to design, UX, and all the new fancy acronyms that stand for "make this easy to use", but I've already derailed the discussion long enough and I think I've pushed my luck enough already.

Yup, certainly agree on that :) I would really like to see that such a pop-up window would be used for every update (and it is already done, but only for notifying about networking changes).

There is a release note button in the launcher, but this leads to a website not listing all things (even if not thinking about the forge). Module and ruleset updates are not listed there, only updates to the client; especially new users cannot see from within FG where to find notes about all updates.

I really like FG, but the communication and notifications about updates could and should really be improved in my opinion, as you wrote, too :)

Weissrolf
August 18th, 2021, 21:30
Weissrolf tone is always... abrasive, but it's not helping anyone to dismiss his concerns without acknowledging that, at times, he's not wrong.
As much as can be judged about "tone" on a written forum, with me writing in a non-native language. :p

That being said: my "tone" fits the repeated replies given by the forum powers that often can be qualified as either "not grasping the issue or information given", "deliberately giving misinformation to cover known shortcomings" or "not caring at all for the users' aka paying customers' point of view". I cannot say which of these inform their replies, but I suspect that in some cases it is a combination thereof.

Trenloe
August 18th, 2021, 21:43
That being said: my "tone" fits the repeated replies given by the forum powers that often can be qualified as either "not grasping the issue or information given", "deliberately giving misinformation to cover known shortcomings" or "not caring at all for the users' aka paying customers' point of view". I cannot say which of these inform their replies, but I suspect that in some cases it is a combination thereof.
Way off the mark here on the last two "quotes". And for the first, we can all do that sometimes - there's plenty of examples of you "not grasping the issue or information given". I disagree with the final two quotes in the strongest way and find those accusations slanderous. Why do you have to be like this? Why do you time and time again go to these levels on the FG forums? It's no one else, just you. This thread has more than ran it's course and has now been derailed. So, yet again, Weissrolf manages to close a thread by stepping way over the mark.