Languages in Mongoose Traveller 2E

[MadBeardMan]

Hi All,

There's been talk of languages, of wants, of needs and of desires.

I myself never worry about them, I assume any ship computer and any comm device TL8 and above can translate, very much like we almost have today.

But this ruleset needs to work for all.

I've spoken to Mongoose and they say the only languages that need skills are already in the ruleset, and these are:

Anglic: The common trade language of the Third Imperium, derived originally from the English spoken in the Rule of Man.
Vilani: The language spoken by the Vilani of the First Imperium; the ‘Latin’ of the Third Imperium.
Zdetl: The Zhodani spoken language.
Oynprith: The Droyne ritual language.

But the rules also state:
There are, of course, as many specialities of Language as there are actual languages. Those presented here are examples from the Third Imperium setting

So if we can agree on an expanded list, that would be good. But the issue rermains, how does a character know the language of the Bwaps? There's no skill?

Do we follow the example of DnD (a bit clunky but workable), and have a section on a Character Sheet detailing which languages a character knows? Or do we ensure that skills are checked, and Referee's would have to add the extra language skills and languages?

Any thoughts to how this could work?

Thanks,
MBM

[Dalton Calford]

In my game, every character gets a number of language skills points equal to their edu/4 at character creation. They can assign these points to one or more languages.
Even with computer translation, local dialects and conceptual issues cause problems.
This means that a cascade language skills roll applies to any interpersonal skill rolls, with the default unskilled penalty and the level of power of the translation software reducing the unskilled penalty

[esmdev]

Different campaigns may allow for different languages. For instance, 2300 will use Earth languages, someone trying to do a Star Wars game might use those languages, etc. I believe the best option would be something that allows the referee to establish a list of languages for the campaign and the skill table (and chat pull down) draws from that as the specialties. Might be tough but would give maximum flexibility.

[dosfox]

I like the simplicity of just having a section on the character sheet for languages the character 'knows', unrelated to their skills. This allows the Referee the flexibility to use the existing language feature in Fantasy Grounds as much or as little as they want. They could still call for skill checks to understand unique or extra difficult aspects, if they choose. I also feel like this would be the easiest load on the Referee, including adding additional languages.

[MadBeardMan]

I like the simplicity of just having a section on the character sheet for languages the character 'knows', unrelated to their skills. This allows the Referee the flexibility to use the existing language feature in Fantasy Grounds as much or as little as they want. They could still call for skill checks to understand unique or extra difficult aspects, if they choose. I also feel like this would be the easiest load on the Referee, including adding additional languages.

This is also part of the problem, how well does the character understand what they're reading/hearing/writing? In DnD it's binary, you either know the language or you don't.

I could for example, when you add a skill for a language, add this to a simpler list on the character sheet (like in DnD), this means that all speciality languages will need adding as skills.

Then when someone speaks in a language, if a player has the skill then we make a roll and if the target is achieved, it's translated or it's not. This sadly is binary, you understand or you don't, and it's not realistic, I for example in France would have a Skill of 0, so I'd understand directions, how to order beer etc.

I welcome more thinking on this.

Cheers,
MBM

Cheers,
MBM

[Vayne187]

I would like the language skills. Starting at 0-x like all other skills. In the Same way MBM with Spanish. I can order a beer, count to 20, find a bathroom, and order a sandwich. But I’m not fluent. So I would have a skill 0 in Spanish. But I’m far from fluent.

I never liked the whole binary system that D&D uses. I would love to see the basic languages you listed and a custom tab so we can use any languages we want to add. Thanks for looking into this MBM.

[MadBeardMan]

I would like the language skills. Starting at 0-x like all other skills. In the Same way MBM with Spanish. I can order a beer, count to 20, find a bathroom, and order a sandwich. But I’m not fluent. So I would have a skill 0 in Spanish. But I’m far from fluent.

I never liked the whole binary system that D&D uses. I would love to see the basic languages you listed and a custom tab so we can use any languages we want to add. Thanks for looking into this MBM.

I agree with the Binary, but the issue is that how do you implement it based on a skill level?

My thinking is this, originally spoken in Oynprith was 'The craft Iron Horse jumped to Elise, carrying the plans with it'

Do we against every 'word' roll the skill, and if the roll gets 8, we translate that word otherwise we just show jibberish?

For example, someone with 'Oynprith Level 1', might see: 'The craft aashedy Horse aahjsdd ey Elise, carrying urrhe plans aspo nd'

Cheers

[Vayne187]

Skill rank 0 is basic speech, 1 fluent speech with basic writing, 2 fluent written and speach?

Use your judgement as a referee on when to make a skill check would be my suggestion.

[MadBeardMan]

Skill rank 0 is basic speech, 1 fluent speech with basic writing, 2 fluent written and speach?

Use your judgement as a referee on when to make a skill check would be my suggestion.

Yea but that's not how the translation works, when text is spoken in a set language a check is made then whether to display it correctly or not. Here-in lies the issue. Just not sure how to show this, which again is why I don't worry about it. Anyone working in accessibility for websites will see that in a few years we don't need to worry about languages.

Cheers

[cdjensen99]

You do not need to know what every work in a sentence is to understand what is being said, just ask an speed reader as they skip words to read faster. I think the skill should represent the understanding and meaning behind what is being said. Example "The horse white runs the fastest", "The horse GHTRGTRF runs fastest" and you would still know that they was talking about the white horse.

[Dalton Calford]

Language is a communication tool.
It is not used unless it is used to support another skill ie Carousing needs communication, as does Admin, Advocate etc. This is true even if both parties know the language in use - a perfect example of this is when you come out of a meeting trying to understand what was actually asked of you.
With traveller, IF the referee is concerned with the lack of communication causing possible issues with a roll that depends upon clear communication, the existing Task Chain system can be used. Depending upon how critical the communication is, it may be a strict effect modifier or just a TC modifier to the cascaded roll.
Language is part of your education, ie low education leads to little experience in expressing complex thoughts. So, EDU+Language Skill would be the roll, with the target difficulty being the same target difficulty as the rest of the tasks ie, if you are explaining the path to the bathroom or order food would be simple, while explaining how to land a shuttle via comms would be difficult....
Mechanically, if you know the language at 0 or better, that is a binary true for showing the text of someone chatting in that language, otherwise they see the gibberish of the wrong font being used.
For those interactions that require a task check and where language is a factor, then a Task Chain can be used.
For characters, they are given a number of skill points based upon their education and can split those points among one or more languages the referee agrees upon. Other languages can be learned or existing languages increased during normal character creation.
For MBM, the only mechanical support needed would be adding a hidden field that lists the languages known to support the back end FGU language binary language support.
This would allow Referee's to use FGU to support languages or ignore them as desired

Just my 2c

[dosfox]

Language is a communication tool.
It is not used unless it is used to support another skill ie Carousing needs communication, as does Admin, Advocate etc. This is true even if both parties know the language in use - a perfect example of this is when you come out of a meeting trying to understand what was actually asked of you.
With traveller, IF the referee is concerned with the lack of communication causing possible issues with a roll that depends upon clear communication, the existing Task Chain system can be used. Depending upon how critical the communication is, it may be a strict effect modifier or just a TC modifier to the cascaded roll.
Language is part of your education, ie low education leads to little experience in expressing complex thoughts. So, EDU+Language Skill would be the roll, with the target difficulty being the same target difficulty as the rest of the tasks ie, if you are explaining the path to the bathroom or order food would be simple, while explaining how to land a shuttle via comms would be difficult....
Mechanically, if you know the language at 0 or better, that is a binary true for showing the text of someone chatting in that language, otherwise they see the gibberish of the wrong font being used.
For those interactions that require a task check and where language is a factor, then a Task Chain can be used.
For characters, they are given a number of skill points based upon their education and can split those points among one or more languages the referee agrees upon. Other languages can be learned or existing languages increased during normal character creation.
For MBM, the only mechanical support needed would be adding a hidden field that lists the languages known to support the back end FGU language binary language support.
This would allow Referee's to use FGU to support languages or ignore them as desired

Just my 2c

I firmly agree with this. For roleplaying and task requirements, we already have the language skills; Any task rolls can be handled by the Referee using them without any changes to the MgT2 Ruleset in FGU. As far as I see, the only thing currently missing is the ability to support the FGU language system, which fundamentally functions on a Binary system.

[Boldtaar]

Apart from Anglic, Vilani, Zdetl, Oynprith I like to have some bidary/encypted data "language" that can me used when players encounter encrypted data

[Vayne187]

Apart from Anglic, Vilani, Zdetl, Oynprith I like to have some bidary/encypted data "language" that can me used when players encounter encrypted data
That would be cool!

[Dalton Calford]

A list of the major known languages that have been published/printed/supported by Traveller over the years (Hopefully I don't loose too much formatting)

L-Name Associated Race/s Associated Goverments
!Kee*and Raxkiir K'kree Two Thousand Worlds
"Guy-Troy*language" Guy-Troy
"Llyrnian*language" Llyrnian
Aaca Humaniti (Luriani) Luriani Cultural Association
Anglic Humaniti*(Solomani) Solomani Confederation*&*Third Imperium
Anseri Humaniti: Answerin Third Imperium
Arabic Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation
Bilanidin Humaniti (Vilani) Ziru Sirka*&*Third Imperium
Changlic Humaniti Mercantile Concord
Chinese
Cantonese
Mandarin Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation*& Wuan Technology Association
Core Anglic Many races Domain of Sylea
Delphinic Trinary Dolphin*&*Orca Solomani Confederation*&*Third Imperium
Dutch Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation*& Reformed Dootchen Estates
English American
English Australian
English British
English Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation
Farsi Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation
French Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation*& Third Reformed French Confederate Republic*& Joie De Vivre
Gaelic Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation
GAL
(Great Ape Language) Uplifted Ape Solomani Confederation
Galaach Humaniti Ushran Trade Association
Genosha Humaniti (Geonee) Geonee Cultural Region Geonee Confederation
German Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation*& Boötean Federation*& Das Volken Worlds*& Dienabach Grüpen*& Kranzbund*& Theocracy of Weltschmerz
Gheldaght Humaniti Principality of Caledon
Ginsharian (language) Ginsharian
Greek Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation
Gurviotic Hivers*&*Gurvin Hive Federation
Hebrew Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation
Hhraki Hhkar Hhkar Sphere
Hindi Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation*& Hanuman Systems
Hiver Sign Language*(HSL) Hivers Hive Federation
Ithkluri Ithklur
Japanese Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation
Kadli Humaniti (Darmine) Darmine Cultural Region
Kdaar Humaniti Aslan Saie Grand Duchy of Marlheim
Kehuu Humaniti (Lancians) Lancian Cultural Region
Klatha'sh Humaniti (Ziadd) Zedan Cultural Region
Loes (language) Humaniti (Loeskalth) Loeskalth Empire (conquered)

Marine Battle Language Imperial Marines Third Imperium
Na Humaniti (Aquan)
Na'ans Suerrat Suerrat Republic
Nahuatl Humaniti Solomani Amec Protectorate
Navajo Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation
Oynprith Droyne Droyne Oytrip Yatroy*&*Third Imperium
Reavers Cant Various races Reavers League
Riftian Humaniti Domain of Deneb
Rim anglic Humaniti Solomani Far Frontier
Russian Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation*& Kostov Confederate Republic*& New Slavic Solidarity
Sagamaal Humaniti (Sword Worlder) Sword Worlds
Sfuizia S'mrii S'mrii ConSentiency
Spanish Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation*& Grand United States of Quesada
Swahili Humaniti Solomani
Sylean language Humaniti (Syleans) Sylean Worlds
Te-Zlodh Humaniti (Daryen) Darrian Confederation
Transform Humaniti Domain of Antares
Trokh Aslan Aslan Hierate*&*Third Imperium
Turkish Humaniti Solomani Solomani Confederation
Ursotic Ursa Solomani Confederation*&*Third Imperium
Ushi (language) Various races Greater GushemegeTrade Association
Vargr Languages (Aekhu,*Arrghoun,*Gvegh,*Irilitok,*Logaksu,*Ovagho un,*Suedzuk,*Vuakedh) Vargr Vargr Extents*&*Third Imperium
Virsashi Virushi Virushi Pacifistocracy
Vrynsyss Eslyat Eslyat Magistracy
Wawa-pakekeke-wawa Bwap Grand Council of Crèches
Welsh Humaniti Solomani Cymraeg Free State
Yerkish Uplifted Ape Solomani Confederation
Yiirabarhi Shrieker
Yohi Eliyoh
Za'tachshprakh Za'tachk
Zdetl Humaniti*(Zhodani) Zhodani Consulate

[chumbly]

At one point I had found an American Sign Language Font, showing the various hand positions for each letter of the alphabet.
I got enthused and started to do an Hiver tentacle font using the Sign language font as a basis. Sadly I can't locate
my work, might try and revisit it at some point. Would be useful for a Solomani and an Hiver
talking with hand/tentacle waving.

Chumbly

[kronovan]

In DnD it's binary, you either know the language or you don't

I just wanted to point out, that in D&D 5e language comprehension is not binary, but in fact tertiary. As in...

- Can't understand a language
- Can speak the language as well as read and write it; the assumed level of comprehension for a PC's known languages.
- Can understand and read and write a language, but can't speak it proper; this is the case for the Kenku player race's comprehension of Common, which was a race added in Volo's Guide to Monsters. There are similar language capabilities for player races in other 3rd party settings.

Language comprehension can actually be considered quaternary, if you consider this additional form of comprehension that can exist for NPCS and intelligent monsters.

- Can speak the language, but can't read and write it.

The FGU implementation of D&D 5e languages on the other hand, heck yes it's been done in a binary way. IMO languages aren't implemented particularly well, so much so that I couldn't make the 5e ruleset's languages work for my campaign set in the 3rd party Midgard World setting, which handles them a bit differently.


But the issue rermains, how does a character know the language of the Bwaps? There's no skill?

OK, but for the sake of argument, as a Referee why wouldn't I just drag & drop another Language specialization -i.e. Language (anglic)- in the Skills window and then for the resulting copy, replace any reference to "anglic" with "bwap"? Thereafter any player who needs Language (bwap) during PC creation or during the campaign, has access to it. If there's indeed a few other Language specializations that are common, for sure create them. The MgT2e skill list is already quite lengthy though and I have players that are used to more consolidated, shorter lists in other RPGs. I for one would prefer to just do the technique I described above, rather than have a lengthy list with a multitude of specialized languages within it.


Do we follow the example of DnD (a bit clunky but workable), and have a section on a Character Sheet detailing which languages a character knows? Or do we ensure that skills are checked, and Referee's would have to add the extra language skills and languages?

As I was sort of getting at above, the FGU D&D 5e ruleset is IMO not necessarily a good one to base MGT2e ruleset design upon. I actually much prefer the way languages are handled in the Savage Worlds ruleset. In it there's a language windows like 5e, but also a Language skill. Further to that, skill specializations are an optional feature which can be enabled - more like the MgT2e ruleset's skill specialties when it's turned on. When enabled, I can create as many Language specializations (right-clicking on the skill, then choosing specialization from the context wheel) on a character sheet as necessary. Those specializations end up being listed on their own line in standard text, beneath the skill which is bold faced.

[JohnQPublic]

This is also part of the problem, how well does the character understand what they're reading/hearing/writing? In DnD it's binary, you either know the language or you don't.

I could for example, when you add a skill for a language, add this to a simpler list on the character sheet (like in DnD), this means that all speciality languages will need adding as skills.

Then when someone speaks in a language, if a player has the skill then we make a roll and if the target is achieved, it's translated or it's not. This sadly is binary, you understand or you don't, and it's not realistic, I for example in France would have a Skill of 0, so I'd understand directions, how to order beer etc.

I welcome more thinking on this.

Cheers,
MBM

Cheers,
MBM

I think you're overthinking it. If one of my players knows one language passingly well, but not fluently, I would change the language with the drop down and type "This ... trader Beowolf ... anyone. ... ... ". I wouldn't expect the system to look at how skilled the character is and have it automatically obscure a certain percentage of words, I can do that as the referee.