lostsanityreturned
July 26th, 2021, 06:37
This is not a "do it or else" message, but rather a data sharing post to have a why attached. So that I don't become analytics that just say people are buying less or are uninterested in the program.
Due to the issue explained in detail for context below I have moved over to using Foundry VTT. Fantasygrounds is by far a superior VTT to GM with, but the performance issue has too big of an impact on my players to ignore any longer. I have already moved to Foundry and have been using it for the past 6 weeks.
The ruleset devs have been doing a great job for the systems I play, and the program still has the best automation features and game management features on the market. I really like the pricing model and that it actively supports the RPG developers as well as the VTT and ruleset developers. I have been a big advocate on reddit and the paizo forums in the past, convinced this issue would be resolved in time and that the archaic UI was the price to pay for its overall utility (I hate the FVTT ui with a passion functionality wise)
I just checked how much money I have spent on FG, ~$1,147usd in total so far, saying to emphasize that I have reasons to stay than a newer user will.
Expanded information
Youtube video I made in January showing the issue that persists currently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U8t_iU2m44)
With the shift to fantasygrounds unity I was quite pleased overall, major bugs but everything seemed to be moving forwards. There was one issue that stood out however, horrible framedrop in the actions tab of higher level spellcasters or complex characters... Characters that had/have no performance issues in FG:C. The issue presented in 5e and PF2e campaigns that I ran.
After 6 months of thinking "well this is a pretty obvious issue, but they have bigger problems to solve and are working on the lighting engine / performance" I decided to make a post with a video outlining the issue, showing the same characters in FG:C. This got no response, when I posted it or after people pinged it saying they had the same issue.
My spellcaster players were having issues every session now thanks to the slowdown and not enjoying the process. Even asking to go back to FG:C (something I didn't want to do as the added image tools in FG:U are really useful for prep and it is easier to see for a colour blind player of mine)
I implemented work arounds such as putting character spell lists onto other characters for prepared casters. This was extra hassle for players and it helped for a bit but again player characters got to the point where they were just too complex for the program)
The thresholds seem to be ~level 5-7 for PF2e and level 9 for 5e for prepared casters with large lists. (although in reality it presents earlier than this, it the impact is just more bearable for myself and my players)
Testing
I have had each player (10 in total) test as players with the characters and new characters. All presented with the issue
I have had the two players who have ultimate licenses host a server with those characters and tested it, still presents
I have run this test on 17 unique systems ranging from ultra high end, mid end to old and out of date. 4 are laptops. All present with the same issue, although it is more pronounced on lower end hardware.
I have used frame limiting and vsync despite REALLY not seeing an excuse for 30fps, this doesn't change anything
I have run it on fresh installs of windows 10 of my own, and even run it on one windows 7 machine a player uses.
Two players have AMD graphics cards, makes no difference, one laptop was trialed with integrated graphics (that has its own issues)
The problem impacts 3D dice rolls from that window (for that player only), sometimes not even sending them to the server (this has been seen via discord screen sharing, it isn't common but was happening 3-10 times a session)
The problem impacts spell prep, adding new magical item automation, adding automation to spells mid session, leveling up, adjusting spells or abilities using spells for automation. It also impacts scrolling up and down to simple see a spell or read its description mid game.
System Specs
My current computer is a 5800x, 32gb 3200mhz cas14, 3090rtx, 2x m.2 SSD 4k screen
My last computer was a 3800x, 32gb 3200mhz, 2080ti, 2x m.2 SSD (different mobo) 1440p screen
My partner's computer is an aging 3770k desktop with 680gtx and an i7 6700uh laptop with a 1060gtx. 1080p and 1440p respectively
The resolution doesn't have an impact. Powersaving settings are set to high performance.
Second Disclaimer
I wrote the above because I have no interest in going over it again and leaving room for people to suggest it is a one off issue or I haven't done enough before considering it an issue. I am sad that I can no longer champion FG to folks on reddit or other forums of discussion, because as good as the rulesets I play are. I know how much of an impact it had on my players and how much of a pain it was to move over to a new program so late into campaigns.
I check back each week to see if there are any telltale fixes in the patch notes, and don't see this changing in the future. This is not a FG is dead to me post, this is a "I won't run games like this or continue to spend money / encourage other people to purchase the program anymore" post.
Attached are the 4 character exports I used for the video in January, they are higher level now in program but I don't feel like dragging their spells over again or re-exporting the characters (which were remade in the case of the PF2e ones after the last ruleset update). It is easy enough to replicate with a fully built fresh character anyway.
Goodluck all, I debated posting this in general but I feel this is perhaps a more apt location.
Due to the issue explained in detail for context below I have moved over to using Foundry VTT. Fantasygrounds is by far a superior VTT to GM with, but the performance issue has too big of an impact on my players to ignore any longer. I have already moved to Foundry and have been using it for the past 6 weeks.
The ruleset devs have been doing a great job for the systems I play, and the program still has the best automation features and game management features on the market. I really like the pricing model and that it actively supports the RPG developers as well as the VTT and ruleset developers. I have been a big advocate on reddit and the paizo forums in the past, convinced this issue would be resolved in time and that the archaic UI was the price to pay for its overall utility (I hate the FVTT ui with a passion functionality wise)
I just checked how much money I have spent on FG, ~$1,147usd in total so far, saying to emphasize that I have reasons to stay than a newer user will.
Expanded information
Youtube video I made in January showing the issue that persists currently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U8t_iU2m44)
With the shift to fantasygrounds unity I was quite pleased overall, major bugs but everything seemed to be moving forwards. There was one issue that stood out however, horrible framedrop in the actions tab of higher level spellcasters or complex characters... Characters that had/have no performance issues in FG:C. The issue presented in 5e and PF2e campaigns that I ran.
After 6 months of thinking "well this is a pretty obvious issue, but they have bigger problems to solve and are working on the lighting engine / performance" I decided to make a post with a video outlining the issue, showing the same characters in FG:C. This got no response, when I posted it or after people pinged it saying they had the same issue.
My spellcaster players were having issues every session now thanks to the slowdown and not enjoying the process. Even asking to go back to FG:C (something I didn't want to do as the added image tools in FG:U are really useful for prep and it is easier to see for a colour blind player of mine)
I implemented work arounds such as putting character spell lists onto other characters for prepared casters. This was extra hassle for players and it helped for a bit but again player characters got to the point where they were just too complex for the program)
The thresholds seem to be ~level 5-7 for PF2e and level 9 for 5e for prepared casters with large lists. (although in reality it presents earlier than this, it the impact is just more bearable for myself and my players)
Testing
I have had each player (10 in total) test as players with the characters and new characters. All presented with the issue
I have had the two players who have ultimate licenses host a server with those characters and tested it, still presents
I have run this test on 17 unique systems ranging from ultra high end, mid end to old and out of date. 4 are laptops. All present with the same issue, although it is more pronounced on lower end hardware.
I have used frame limiting and vsync despite REALLY not seeing an excuse for 30fps, this doesn't change anything
I have run it on fresh installs of windows 10 of my own, and even run it on one windows 7 machine a player uses.
Two players have AMD graphics cards, makes no difference, one laptop was trialed with integrated graphics (that has its own issues)
The problem impacts 3D dice rolls from that window (for that player only), sometimes not even sending them to the server (this has been seen via discord screen sharing, it isn't common but was happening 3-10 times a session)
The problem impacts spell prep, adding new magical item automation, adding automation to spells mid session, leveling up, adjusting spells or abilities using spells for automation. It also impacts scrolling up and down to simple see a spell or read its description mid game.
System Specs
My current computer is a 5800x, 32gb 3200mhz cas14, 3090rtx, 2x m.2 SSD 4k screen
My last computer was a 3800x, 32gb 3200mhz, 2080ti, 2x m.2 SSD (different mobo) 1440p screen
My partner's computer is an aging 3770k desktop with 680gtx and an i7 6700uh laptop with a 1060gtx. 1080p and 1440p respectively
The resolution doesn't have an impact. Powersaving settings are set to high performance.
Second Disclaimer
I wrote the above because I have no interest in going over it again and leaving room for people to suggest it is a one off issue or I haven't done enough before considering it an issue. I am sad that I can no longer champion FG to folks on reddit or other forums of discussion, because as good as the rulesets I play are. I know how much of an impact it had on my players and how much of a pain it was to move over to a new program so late into campaigns.
I check back each week to see if there are any telltale fixes in the patch notes, and don't see this changing in the future. This is not a FG is dead to me post, this is a "I won't run games like this or continue to spend money / encourage other people to purchase the program anymore" post.
Attached are the 4 character exports I used for the video in January, they are higher level now in program but I don't feel like dragging their spells over again or re-exporting the characters (which were remade in the case of the PF2e ones after the last ruleset update). It is easy enough to replicate with a fully built fresh character anyway.
Goodluck all, I debated posting this in general but I feel this is perhaps a more apt location.