Keeping Fantasy Grounds relevant as we begin to transition towards face to face games

[Rylan Storm]

Good afternoon all,

Like many of you, I started using Fantasy Grounds due to the pandemic. It wasn't possible to meet with friends and a VTT was our only option. We have had fun with our game but I don't feel that the atmosphere using a VTT will ever replace the fun of getting together with friends, sitting around with beers, laughing, drinking, eating takeaway, watching people's reactions etc. As we start going back to more face-to-face meet-ups with friends, Fantasy Grounds is likely to be sidelined somewhat.

There will be less inclination to buy digital modules and I expect sales of all digital products including Roll20, FG, DNDBeyond, Foundry, etc will take a hit as a result.

What I'm suggesting is that the developers look to create a new mode to support face-to-face games. This would not be a small change. However, I think that it makes sense from a business point of view and, as a result, the ability to maintain income (and perhaps increase market share) at a time where the VTT medium itself is likely to see diminished revenue, could justify some of these sweeping changes.

I have added my idea to the idea informer at https://fgapp.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=136655 and I'd appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

[Zacchaeus]

You can use Fantasy Grounds in Face to face games now. Many people do and have done for many years. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?25600-Using-FG-at-the-tabletop

[Trenloe]

You can do a lot of this now - just ignore the stuff you don't want to use.

[Rylan Storm]

Hi, I'm aware that people already do it but I don't believe the current interface is conducive to doing so. You're relegated to using a laptop in most situations which, by their very nature, have small screens. You have to install and configure extensions to get the grid display right.

It can do it sure but, in my personal opinion, it ain't great and my group would simply not bother.

[srbongo]

You're relegated to using a laptop in most situations which, by their very nature, have small screens. You have to install and configure extensions to get the grid display right.

You're quite right about the laptop - that's what my in-person group does (hiding it behind a TV). But I don't know if Extensions are needed in order to make the grid proper. We use a fairly small TV and everything is essentially plug-and-play using Manual Rolls. I've done this for a different groups, TVs, and Laptops - but I get that the text may be small for some. One thing about your suggestion, removing the chat box is pretty much a no-go for many face-to-face groups that use Manual Rolling, as FG adds modifiers and effects to those rolls and reports them still in the chat box, something to think on.

[Mytherus]

I always used fg to play even before the pandemic, as a dm I've never had issues finding enthusiastic players so while the pandemic certainly brought increased business, I'm sure, to Smiteworks as well as other vtts i do offer two points based on the OPs post.

1. Fair enough to suggest some improvements to make fg better for in person games, im sure keeping as much of that "pandemic user base" revenue is something Smiteworks would like to do..but you offer no suggestions or detailed input on what you think it needs. As pointed out many MANY groups have enjoyed using fg for years for in person games. So if you think dev time should be invested ...perhaps sell your case to them.

2. I don't think dev priorities should change as they are now. Fg , in my estimation anyway, did well before covid struck. These forums suggest it has a decent loyal user base. It would be silly to stop the features and fixes planned now to enhance in person play.

[Rylan Storm]

Srbongo - removing the chatbox, as a standalone measure wouldn't work but I'm not proposing a few minor fixes. Adding a new way to display the screens (I'd suggest a middle of screen marquee temporarily showing the result) would allow the information to be shown clearly without locking us into that "Needs a PC" feel. You can still display results without having a large area of the screen dedicated to a chat feature that isn't going to be used in a face-to-face game.

And that for me is the crux of the issue. There's a lot of stuff taking up space that doesn't need to be there in a face-to-face game.

Mytherus - I think I've given some really detailed suggestions and input in the idea posted in the Idea Informer app and a strong justification behind it. As for the comment regarding stopping development on some features to focus on my idea, that's exactly why I've posted something on the ideas app. If it starts getting enough votes then it gives the developers a very clear steer on what the customers want. And I'd suggest that increasing (or maintaining) your users base is a pretty sound investment.

I like some of the top ideas on the Ideas App. I voted for them. But it won't mean much if a lot of people return to face to face play.

[HywelPhillips]

I've been thinking about what I'd want from an in-person version of FGU.

I'd want a big central screen showing the map, which is shared between all players (and maybe the GM too or maybe not). I don't see that players need the immersion factor of individual character line of sight and fog of war for this shared view especially- you don't have that with a physical map a miniatures or tokens after all. I'd probably use a data projector for this. I'd prefer to have virtual tokens moved around the shared map myself, rather than use a flat TV as a substrate and have physical figures on top of it.

I wouldn't mind if everyone had to conduct their turn with a laptop, but it would be MUCH (much much) better if they could do it with a mobile device. An iPad each would make for a very smooth experience, if all that iPad had to do was to display the character sheet. That's why having a shared map screen would be so useful. In the ideal world each player could somehow move their pointer "off" their iPad and onto the shared screen to control their token movement, but a more realistic solution would be a paged or tabbed interface so they can quickly flick from map for movement control and back to character sheet to initiate actions.

The GM has to have at least a laptop, and maybe something more iMac sized because they will likely need more screen real estate. The more I think about it the more I think they probably need their own version of the map, they will need the combat tracker and the chat window (not sure the players need either of those). An iMac on the table isn't SO different from a big GM's card screen, physically.

I think the two big changes that would facilitate this are:

1) Multiple monitor, multiple window support. (eg so the player can have two screens running, one with the map, one with the character sheet). This would probably help play the game on laptops remotely, too?

2) A iOS/Android client (presumably feasible under Unity?) or a web-browser-based client.

Cheers, Hywel

[Agamon]

I like some of the top ideas on the Ideas App. I voted for them. But it won't mean much if a lot of people return to face to face play.

FG was being used before the pandemic. It will still mean a lot to the people that continue to use the software.

Better to look at the last 16 months as a boost and now things are going back to normal.

[Trenloe]

We're not saying that a more face-to-face player focused interface wouldn't be nice at some point in the future. We're saying that a lot of what is mentioned can be done now (maybe not quickly and easily, but if you really want something like this, a lot of it *can* be done now with a small amount of effort) - therefore I would imagine that most people wouldn't see this as a high priority right now. However, as this is in Idea Informer users can vote if this is something they want to see.

In the end, Fantasy Grounds is still aimed at being a VTT for play over the Internet. Sure, expanding into more face-to-face functionality would be a plus; but it's not what FG in it's current form is designed for. In the future, especially after the need to support two code based goes away later this month, who knows???

[LordEntrails]

Reading the item on the wish list, it struck me as a fairly descriptive specification for a phone or tablet version. I believe that is also an idea on the wish list.

[Ludd_G]

I've always used FG to run my face to face games, since coming back to D&D with 5e.

I set manual rolls on my side (I use FG to roll my rolls, but my players roll real dice, which I input into FG. They also use a paper pc sheet and pencil for F2F and don't really need the player side functionality, at least thus far) and connect a second instance of FGU, via local host, expanding just the map onto a 55" tv lying flat on the table. We use minis on the map, although I also use the tokens, which will now be able to take advantage of LoS and lighting as it's too good to abandon (I've been investigating dual mouse software, and a standalone number-pad so the players can move their tokens - if this doesn't pan out, they'll move their minis and I'll move the token for them).

I also log in with another demo account on an old Surface Pro, which is stood up and displays only the Combat Tracker for my players (the only downside to that is new images obscure the CT and can prove to be a bit awkward to remove without a keyboard/mouse). This worked great for us before lockdown, and I love FGUs automation and organisation via encounter pins, map display, story entries etc etc. and it works great for F2F games.

Possibly the only minor things I'd love is to have some kind of remote display (possibly on a mobile device) for rolling during combat - I tend to get up and move around a lot when in the flow of the game, and I'd love to have some functionality away from the main keyboard and screen - I'd also love a way to request a window goes full-screen (not just for maps), and also a way to request a window to be 'always on top'. Apart from these things I'm pretty much looking forward to continuing to use FGU for F2F sessions (although I'm sure I'll think of a long list of stuff I'd love to have as soon as I hit 'Reply'! ;) )

This may all sound a bit complex but it's proved to be really smooth in practice.

Anyhoo, this wasn't to disparage your ideas, Rylan, more to show what can already be done, in case you or anyone should think it not feasible already, and don't give it a try.

Cheers,

Simon

[Rylan Storm]

FG was being used before the pandemic. It will still mean a lot to the people that continue to use the software.

Better to look at the last 16 months as a boost and now things are going back to normal

I'm sorry but I disagree with this quite strongly. Sure, you can just assume you had 16 months of better than average sales and accept it will go back to normal but it would be far better to look at why new people came to your product and, if it's transient, work out what you can do to convert them to long term customers.



but it's not what FG in it's current form is designed for. Yeah, I agree with that but that isn't to say what it was designed for is necessarily what it has to be used for. A smart business is going to look at the environment and make decisions based on the prevailing need. The IdeasApp is great because it gives the devs an idea on priority. The only reason this post is also here is for me to answer any questions on my idea, and because I know a lot of people forget the IdeasApp is there a lot of the time.

If people like the idea they can vote for it and ignore it if not.


Reading the item on the wish list, it struck me as a fairly descriptive specification for a phone or tablet version. I believe that is also an idea on the wish list.
Five or 6 players sat around a table using tablets, together with a tarted up interface for the map being run through a PC, would be the absolute ideal solution. I mean, stick that map screen through a web browser and use Chrome to cast it to the TV, negating the need for wires and...boom. No doubt about it, that would have me continuing to use FG forever.

However, I know the complications of cross-platform integrations and, given that we're often told of the limitations of Unity, I wanted to focus on the PC angle. I think it would be more deliverable.

A lot of people are showing me how it can be done but they also highlight things that are awkward. Everyone has gripes. Why don't we start listing those gripes and see if something can be done about it?


I am no graphics designer and I am not suggesting this as an implementation but, just for food for thought;
47610
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[ChrisRevocateur]

You have to install and configure extensions to get the grid display right.

This is only if you're planning on using the display as the battlemap for actual physical miniatures. If you're using it up on a traditional TV as a display with the digital tokens within the program itself, the grid size doesn't need to be exact.

[Ludd_G]

This is only if you're planning on using the display as the battlemap for actual physical miniatures. If you're using it up on a traditional TV as a display with the digital tokens within the program itself, the grid size doesn't need to be exact.

We always use minis and in all honesty I've never worried enough about it being exact to use an extension. The grid is the grid and as long as it's not too small to accommodate the minis it's all good :D

Cheers,

Simon

[Agamon]

I'm sorry but I disagree with this quite strongly. Sure, you can just assume you had 16 months of better than average sales and accept it will go back to normal but it would be far better to look at why new people came to your product and, if it's transient, work out what you can do to convert them to long term customers.

I'm not against giving people options on how to play. I just find the implication that FG is going to become pointless as the pandemic runs its course absurd.

[ChrisRevocateur]

We always use minis and in all honesty I've never worried enough about it being exact to use an extension. The grid is the grid and as long as it's not too small to accommodate the minis it's all good :D

Cheers,

Simon

Which really only strengthens my point, an extension is NOT actually needed to be able to run with in person play.

Not saying that I wouldn't LIKE a specific in-person interface, I actually think it's a MARVELOUS idea, but it's really not hard to make it work for that as it is.

[Ludd_G]

Which really only strengthens my point, an extension is NOT actually needed to be able to run with in person play.

Not saying that I wouldn't LIKE a specific in-person interface, I actually think it's a MARVELOUS idea, but it's really not hard to make it work for that as it is.

Exactly :D

[Rylan Storm]

I didn't say it would become pointless. I simply said people would be less inclined to use it.

[LordEntrails]

I think its the title of the post, and not the actual words used in the OP, that implied "pointless" or other seemingly extreme future :)

[esmdev]

To be honest, the last time my group got together pre-pandemic, we started playing with dice and character sheets on day one but towards the middle of the day we broke out out laptops and used those for the rest of the weekend. Movement, die rolls and character maintenance was simply faster than older non-virtual gaming. We will probably do the same when we do live games going forward.

[WinterSoldier7]

Purely a personal preference, but even if I met up with friends in person post-pandemic I think we would be using laptops and FGU - though rolling real dice, because that's a luxury that shouldn't be lost.

I can't imagine I would even do that though, as FGU has not only proven to me that tabletop roleplaying games can be played quite easily in a remote setting, but if anything it has allowed me to create far grander storylines and narratives than I would have been bothered to do with paper and pencil. I have more quality NPCs in my games now than I would ever bother fleshing out on paper.

Another aspect is that I can play with more friends, if my group met in person then at least one or two of them would be remote anyway. Gathering together is hard if you want to be consistent, but getting to your PC and a headset less so.

I suppose, to bring it back around to the topic at hand, I would say that it's perfectly fine for FGU to tweak here and there to better suit in-person playing, but I don't think there's going to be any major issues with relevance going forward.

[Nylanfs]

Also note that Amazon Prime day is coming up next week and you could pick up a large TV to use as the 2nd monitor for cheap.

[Mytherus]

I agree its the title of the post. The implication is "after the pandemic why use a vtt"...spin it anyway you want but thats the impression the wording gives.

For MANY of us who used fg for years before the pandemic ...yes the notion of it becoming irrelevant after the pandemic is absurd indeed.

Also the notion of enhancing it for in person play is not original. Its been brought up at one time or another. My point for saying that is just an example of...where the majority of rhe customers wanted the product to go...(so far) in person play enhancements has not been the most demanded feature. Putting it on the idea app was a good step though to see if it now gets a mass of support.