Main issue with Line of sight on maps

[BillandDarrin]

I think the line of site is cool/lighting, but there was something unnerving about the presentation that I could not quite understand. I have finally figured it out. The issue is with many maps, the line of site is set to the outer pixel of the whatever the obstacle is. a wall, a statue, a pillar, etc. So the player sees what they see and anything else looks like a black void.
This is true of many map packs, the built in tokens in map making packs, and converted map files.
What should happen, is the line of site guidelines should be placed slightly inside of the obstacle so that when the players LOS ends, they can see the contour of what the obstacle is. This dramatically improves the player's visual experience. I have gone through the maps in the Dungeon of the mad mage module and started doing this and it makes a big difference. However, it is very tedious.

[Valyar]

Can you show screenshots with example? You want the LOS to be in the contour, so the players actually see the first few pixels of wall/column/etc?

[Zacchaeus]

What BillandDarrin means can be illustrated in the images attached. All the images are from a sample room in the first map of DotMM. The first pair show the image as it is now with and without the LoS lines visible. There is, as you can see, a slight 'bleed through' of the sight through the lines into the image beyond so you can just see the edges of the walls. The second pair of images show the lines moved back from the edge of the wall so that more of the wall is shown. The OP is saying that this is visually more pleasing to the players. Currently all LoS is drawn as the first pair of images show; on the basis that this is more 'correct' in that the wall is blocking line of sight and so you can't see into or beyond the surface of the wall. However there are a number in the community that would prefer the latter method where lines are drawn back from the edge so that more wall is visible. I hear from this section of the community now and again. What I don't hear much is from those that like it the way it is and don't want the lines to be in the middle of the wall or at least back a bit from the edge. So I wonder if the majority view is the status quo or whether there is a much bigger section of the community that think more wall should be visible.

I can tell you now that there's no way I'm going back over the current DLC and changing the way the LoS is drawn; but going forward I will certainly take into consideration the community view if that view is that it should be different from the way it's done now.

(Incidentally DotMM is probably not a great example since the maps are all in black and white. Where there are coloured maps that might make a difference)

[Trenloe]

I'm certainly in the camp of wanting to see more of the wall/boundary when the map allows it. Sometimes the edge of LoS can be mistaken for a wall if there's only a couple of pixels of the wall showing in other places, especially when zoomed out a little. Having more of the wall/boundary showing also gives the players a better view of the exact make-up of a room and so adds to the atmosphere (that's now pretty good with dynamic lighting) and also reduces the amount of questions from the players.

[Valyar]

I'm certainly in the camp of wanting to see more of the wall/boundary when the map allows it. Sometimes the edge of LoS can be mistaken for a wall if there's only a couple of pixels of the wall showing in other places, especially when zoomed out a little. Having more of the wall/boundary showing also gives the players a better view of the exact make-up of a room and so adds to the atmosphere (that's now pretty good with dynamic lighting) and also reduces the amount of questions from the players.

I join this camp too. :)

[damned]

Me too!

[Ludd_G]

Me too, too! :D

(and I'd say as much wall as you can reasonably get away with for player immersion's sake)

[Zarestia]

I'm also for it but I think it really comes down to how well the maps are drawn. Not giving away secret doors or anomalies in the walls can be difficult as are very thin walls.

[LordEntrails]

Honestly I think the better solution is to ask Moon for a map/image setting that allows the amount of bleed through to be controlled. If I remember right, he said it is currently 3 percent of the grid size. An image slider that goes from perhaps 0-20 would be ideal in my case. That way I can control what I think is best, plus if a map is done differently, then I can change the bleed appropriately.

Note, I'm in the camp of more, but I understand the silent camp.

[Moon Wizard]

I was discussing this a bit with @ddavison. The challenge with a "configurable" bleed through is that it becomes yet another setting needing to be stored on a per-image basis. Additionally, this adds yet another factor in LoS issue calculations (which could create issues in LoS calculations) as well as investigation/resolution.

I'm also always aware that it's a slippery slope; and then people will want per-wall bleed through....

Regards,
JPG

[ddavison]

IMO, it looks kind of strange when shadows are cast from inside the wall instead of at the wall edge as you explore around. The walls also block movement, so with the wall LOS defined inside the walls, it allows the players to move into the wall space, draw LOS through corners, etc. That said, I do like being able to see more of the map. There are often really cool details visible inside the walls that get obscured with the LOS definitions at the very edge.

I had requested a larger peak through amount earlier when we were designing this, but Carl pointed out that there were some issues with larger amounts. Occasionally it would allow you to see through both walls into a second adjoining room when the walls were really thin -- for instance, secret doors. This is also a problem with drawing the lines inside the walls. Hiding secret passages becomes more challenging. The amount you can adjust it for is very dependent upon the specific map in question.

[HywelPhillips]

I'm firmly in the "show more of the wall depth" camp. I always draw my own LOS with a good inset so the players can see into the wall, only coming the "full distance" to the wall edge where it is important to ensure LOS is correctly blocked for things like doors and sharp corners.

Cheers, Hywel

[Beregond]

I'd also like to see more of the wall/boundary when possible.

[wndrngdru]

I also prefer 2-3 pixels inside the wall and set my own maps up this way.

[Zorngrimm]

I'm in the camp of a little more wall, too.

[Straikkeri]

This is an issue anyone drawing LOS boundaries will notice very quickly. I drew wall boundaries on a dungeon following the edges of the wall precisely and very quickly noticed that players entering the dungeon were rats in a pitch black walled maze instead of a crypt. Ended up reverting the whole map from box-shape walls to single line walls drawn in the middle of the wall graphic. That way the players can see the textures of the walls from both sides. There is however issues with movement with players being able to walk in to the walls, this isn't really issue at least for me personally, except when token lock is on. In that case when a PC token ends up bumping in to a wall with planned movement, he gets stuck in between squares and cannot plan his way back on to the squares. Is it not possible to disallow token movement for half-squares?

For aesthetic difference see examples:

Box walls:
47629

Single line walls:
47630

From aesthetic point of view, I think it's clear which approach is better. From token locked planned movement perspective, box walls are better.

[Griogre]

One of the things I found I liked about Dungeondraft with FGU is that the walls overlap into the floor and this means that if you draw your wall occluder where the floor ends you get a nice aesthetic (pic below).

The core of the issue isn't anyone opposed to overlap, its FG is often forced to use maps that were not designed for VTTs. Black and white (or old school blue and white) maps are just particularly problematic since their colors can look very much like the edge of LOS vision instead of a wall. Likewise small stamp pieces. You can see the issue with Shockbolt's Kickstarter tile stamps.

My only suggestion for the current system is instead of a proportional offset into the wall based on grid size to just use a constant offset of a fixed number of pixels, ie 4-6 - and see if it works better. But no solution, is going to play nice with all maps and secret doors.