Isn’t Starfinder in maintenance mode, effectively shelved apart from bug fixes?

[japatterson]

This was a question and response I saw on FG Discord:

Question: Isn’t Starfinder in maintenance mode, effectively shelved apart from bug fixes?

Response: kinda-sorta, they want a new community developer to take ownership of it
or hire a new dev to support it and others (ala Superteddy), which is my personal opinion of what needs to be done.


How true is this? And if so what is the scope and consequences? Can we expect to see new releases, like The Galaxy Exploration Manual, anytime soon? Love FGU and I like most of what's going on with Starfinder but it sure would be nice to know the details of this as it could effectively cut off future resources for the game.

[Moon Wizard]

There are still DLC developers that are building out the various Starfinder adventures and books. However, the DLC developer who was working on the ruleset moved on; and we are maintaining the system until a new developer is interested. That said, @superteddy57 on our team did just push a whole set of updates to clean up a bunch of long-running Starfinder items as well as to add support for SOM changes that were never built. Going forward, any DLC books which require ruleset framework changes will need to have those changes provided by the DLC developer adapting the book.

All DLC development is driven by community developers building and submitting the products to us for inclusion in the store.

Regards,
JPG

[japatterson]

Props and Thank you to @superteddy57 for the recent updates. They have been really great. Heres to hoping we get newer releases like the Galaxy Exploration Manual.

[Dyark]

Did any person took charge of the Galaxy exploration Manual ?

[Ulric]

I love SmiteWorks and its products. I think supperteddy57 and several other community contributors have done a fantastic job keeping this ruleset alive. I have purchased a significant amount of Starfinder content for Fantasy Grounds and have a vested interest in the Starfinder ruleset success. I will say that I am trouble that SW is advertising the Starfinder ruleset on Youtube in a newly released sales video, but also also unable to provide proper support. I hope SW can find a solution soon that provides quality support for a premium ruleset. I don't want to have customers, some of whom are children, spending their money on these expensive supplements only for them to discover that SW is not actively developing the Starfinder ruleset.

[deer_buster]

Going forward, any DLC books which require ruleset framework changes will need to have those changes provided by the DLC developer adapting the book.

All DLC development is driven by community developers building and submitting the products to us for inclusion in the store.

Regards,
JPG
I'm guessing that this right here is going to massively delay any DLC that requires ruleset changes

[deer_buster]

And snaps for superteddy for the fantastic work he has done on the ruleset to-date...however, this is a CORE ruleset of Fantasy Grounds that was included in the price of purchase of the software. IMHO, the ruleset itself should be 100% supported by Smiteworks, and all changes to it required by DLC should be provided by Smiteworks.

[damned]

And snaps for superteddy for the fantastic work he has done on the ruleset to-date...however, this is a CORE ruleset of Fantasy Grounds that was included in the price of purchase of the software. IMHO, the ruleset itself should be 100% supported by Smiteworks, and all changes to it required by DLC should be provided by Smiteworks.


I love SmiteWorks and its products. I think supperteddy57 and several other community contributors have done a fantastic job keeping this ruleset alive. I have purchased a significant amount of Starfinder content for Fantasy Grounds and have a vested interest in the Starfinder ruleset success. I will say that I am trouble that SW is advertising the Starfinder ruleset on Youtube in a newly released sales video, but also also unable to provide proper support. I hope SW can find a solution soon that provides quality support for a premium ruleset. I don't want to have customers, some of whom are children, spending their money on these expensive supplements only for them to discover that SW is not actively developing the Starfinder ruleset.

You are not buying a promise of a future state of a product.
You are buying the product as it is today.
There is no implied promise to add more functionality to the product.
This is true of most things that we buy.

Numenera is also a free/core/included ruleset.
There is no promise to add functionality to it.

[Trenloe]

I get it guys, you want to have the best for the RPG system you've invested in and play with.

To put this in perspective - the D&D 5 E ruleset has essentially been in maintenance mode for a few years - the only significant "new" functionality that has been introduced is the Character Wizard. "Maintenance mode" doesn't mean that Smiteworks don't support their products. It doesn't mean that it stands still (see the comments about what has been done to Starfinder earlier in this thread).

Like I said, I get it - you want the best. But let's be realistic here. Starfinder has bug fixes and new functionality added. There are regular new product releases. There are regular ruleset updates (just look at the Tuesday release threads in the City Hall forum). Based off this, you do get "proper quality support" - weekly updates, regular product releases, developer engagement on the forums, a support channel to log issues. That would be classed as quality support for any software company.

Smiteworks don't have a full time developer for any of their rulesets - they simply can't afford to do that. Hence why they rely on external work-for-hire developers to take on rulesets. There are few of the rulesets that have currently active new-functionality developers - very few.

So, let's take a step back, take a deep breath. Startfinder on FG isn't going anywhere. It has probably the 3rd or 4th most active conversion stream of any of the FG rulesets. The ruleset code has active participation/updates from Smiteworks employees. The situation is not doom-and-gloom. Sure, it would be great to have an active external developer to add new functionality, keep in mind that a good one who sticks with it is incredibly hard to come by...

[deer_buster]

To put this in perspective - the D&D 5 E ruleset has essentially been in maintenance mode for a few years - the only significant "new" functionality that has been introduced is the Character Wizard. "Maintenance mode" doesn't mean that Smiteworks don't support their products. It doesn't mean that it stands still (see the comments about what has been done to Starfinder earlier in this thread).


How about to put it into perspective, 5E has not needed ruleset changes with any kind of frequency to make up for the fact that Wizards constantly adds content that requires ruleset changes, unlike Starfinder, which does....so to compare the two products is like comparing apples to green beans...

[Trenloe]

How about to put it into perspective, 5E has not needed ruleset changes with any kind of frequency to make up for the fact that Wizards constantly adds content that requires ruleset changes, unlike Starfinder, which does....so to compare the two products is like comparing apples to green beans...
I agree that the systems are very different, with Starfinder being an order of magnitude more complex than D&D 5e, with new rules being added with new products. I made the comparison because I wanted to get across that the 5E ruleset has essentially been in "maintenance mode" for years - not getting any major new ruleset functionality, with the exception of the character wizard. This is one of the main reasons why there has been a big growth in paid for 5E extensions on DMs Guild; because people want more functionality in 5E, and there's an official avenue for that with a way to monetize it - but DMs Guild and monetizing extensions is a completely different conversation that I don't want to get into here.

What I'm trying to get across is that "maintenance mode" doesn't mean the death of a ruleset - far from it, for all the reasons I listed in my previous post.

[deer_buster]

You are not buying a promise of a future state of a product.
You are buying the product as it is today.
There is no implied promise to add more functionality to the product.
This is true of most things that we buy.

Numenera is also a free/core/included ruleset.
There is no promise to add functionality to it.

Odd, we put a LOT of money down on the promise of the future state of FGU. Are you saying we should just shut up and get what we get when we throw our hard-earned money at a product?

[deer_buster]

I guess "supported" means a lot of different things to different people. Supported to me means that as new content is sold by you that it will be supported by the ruleset by you

[Trenloe]

I guess "supported" means a lot of different things to different people. Supported to me means that as new content is sold by you that it will be supported by the ruleset by you
I suppose this comes down to the age-old question of how much automation do you expect in the ruleset as standard - you'll definitely get different viewpoints on that.

In the end, if products have to have the level of automation that you appear to expect, then it seems that there are a bunch of products that won't be released - whether that ruleset has an active work-for-hire developer or not. Another discussion for somewhere different.

I ultimately think this is a case of bad connotations being assigned to the phrase "maintenance mode". The Starfinder ruleset gets regular updates (every week for the last few weeks), regular product releases, developer engagement on the forums, a support channel to log issues, defect fixes, etc., etc.. It's not dead, it's not going away. Maybe think of it as "Active, looking for a ruleset developer to take it to even greater heights".

[deer_buster]

I suppose this comes down to the age-old question of how much automation do you expect in the ruleset as standard - you'll definitely get different viewpoints on that.

In the end, if products have to have the level of automation that you appear to expect, then it seems that there are a bunch of products that won't be released - whether that ruleset has an active work-for-hire developer or not. Another discussion for somewhere different.

I ultimately think this is a case of bad connotations being assigned to the phrase "maintenance mode". The Starfinder ruleset gets regular updates (every week for the last few weeks), regular product releases, developer engagement on the forums, a support channel to log issues, defect fixes, etc., etc.. It's not dead, it's not going away. Maybe think of it as "Active, looking for a ruleset developer to take it to even greater heights".

Don't assUme...I said nothing of automation. I said support. Starship Operations Manual required rulset changes (additional fields, etc.) to allow for the new features of starships to be accounted for on the starship sheet. Alien Archive 3 required ruleset changes. COM required ruleset changes. Every product seems to REQUIRE a change to the base ruleset to allow the content to just be displayed. And now you are expecting content converters to also be programmers (that's rarely a good idea) in order for us to be able to get new content that requires these changes. That doesn't sound like Smiteworks supports the ruleset...sounds like Smiteworks requires the community to support it.

I am fine with community developers providing automation via extension...but honestly, expecting us to foot the bill for automation for a software product that touts its automation in its advertisements, seems kind of FUBAR...and I can see why competition has started to step up.

[superteddy57]

As the SmiteWorks developer that is currently monitoring and bug fixing the absent developer rulesets, I believe my work shows that we are not abandoning these rulesets. I have worked to ensure games can continue with the same level of automation and to allow those rulesets to work with new features that the main program has introduced. The maintenance tag means slower only in the expansion of features. I have reached out and worked with many of the content developers and offered to field questions and assist, when capable, to making sure their content is represented within the ruleset code. As we suggested with the WOIN ruleset, please create feature requests posts within the SFRPG forum to be reviewed. Also as you see more popular extensions are making their way into rulesets. These do not get unnoticed and are added. Thank you for the passion and discussion within, but please remember I will remain available to field questions and help to support the best way I can.

[Trenloe]

@deer_buster - one persons support could be another persons automation, so please forgive my assumptions if inaccurate.

We're getting into individual specifics of product development and requirements that really should be addressed directly between the converter and Smiteworks. EDIT: Thanks @superteddy57!

I stand by my statements regarding the relatively healthy status of the Startfinder ruleset, and associated products, especially when compared with other FG rulesets as a whole.

[Ulric]

You are not buying a promise of a future state of a product.
You are buying the product as it is today.
There is no implied promise to add more functionality to the product.
This is true of most things that we buy.

Numenera is also a free/core/included ruleset.
There is no promise to add functionality to it.
I think you have missed the point of my statement. I did not ask for any new features. Your argument might work if SW was selling a static product like a book or a toaster. A Paizo product like Starfinder is not static and will require development over. There is also the consideration of the SW Store. I purchase a lot of products from the SW Store. It's important to me that the ecosystem I have chosen to game and spend my money has a future. I would never make a serious investment in a VTT company and it's products if they have stopped development on and RPG that is still consistently expanding the game. I think the term "maintenance mode" sends the wrong message. As a consumer I'm just voicing my opinion of how SW messaging sounds to me.

I have never said I expect anything from SW and the Developers of free rulesets like Numenera.

[Ulric]

As the SmiteWorks developer that is currently monitoring and bug fixing the absent developer rulesets, I believe my work shows that we are not abandoning these rulesets. I have worked to ensure games can continue with the same level of automation and to allow those rulesets to work with new features that the main program has introduced. The maintenance tag means slower only in the expansion of features. I have reached out and worked with many of the content developers and offered to field questions and assist, when capable, to making sure their content is represented within the ruleset code. As we suggested with the WOIN ruleset, please create feature requests posts within the SFRPG forum to be reviewed. Also as you see more popular extensions are making their way into rulesets. These do not get unnoticed and are added. Thank you for the passion and discussion within, but please remember I will remain available to field questions and help to support the best way I can.
Just to be clear my concerns were based strictly on MoonWizards comments. I'm happy that you have clarified the Starfiner rulesets current status.

[deer_buster]

@deer_buster - one persons support could be another persons automation, so please forgive my assumptions if inaccurate.

We're getting into individual specifics of product development and requirements that really should be addressed directly between the converter and Smiteworks. EDIT: Thanks @superteddy57!

I stand by my statements regarding the relatively healthy status of the Startfinder ruleset, and associated products, especially when compared with other FG rulesets as a whole.

To be fair to those that want the automation, the home page of this site does state "Fantasy Grounds partners with RPG companies to provide a unique experience for each game we support, with intelligent automation making your game easier to prep, more immersive for your players, and faster to run." (emphasis mine). So you could see how people would expect the automation to come with it...

[AlaskanFalcon]

Is there a spreadsheet or an issue tracker for the ruleset somewhere that we can review? I've been spending some time over the past few weeks diving into ruleset code, extensions, modules, etc. and have expressed some interest in trying to fill in the gaps a bit for both Starfinder (SuperTeddy is a rockstar FYI) and PF2e (thank goodness for Trenloe, ShadeRaven, and the others working on PF2e). If there is an issue tracker (outside of the bug report thread - it can be difficult to tell what's still an open bug or issue sometimes), it would help me find areas that I could potentially come up with fixes and/or extensions to brush up my skills before applying with Smiteworks for the community developer program.

I'm playing in a SF group that is on a hiatus right now due to a player having real life interrupt, but I'm looking at helping the GM move from Roll20 to Fantasy Grounds when we resume - so I don't have as much exposure to SF in FG than I'd like to know where the current issues are, but have been getting caught up on the scripts and layouts.

I'd also be interested in potentially looking at what is necessary to support the Galaxy Exploration Manual

[superteddy57]

Is there a spreadsheet or an issue tracker for the ruleset somewhere that we can review? I've been spending some time over the past few weeks diving into ruleset code, extensions, modules, etc. and have expressed some interest in trying to fill in the gaps a bit for both Starfinder (SuperTeddy is a rockstar FYI) and PF2e (thank goodness for Trenloe, ShadeRaven, and the others working on PF2e). If there is an issue tracker (outside of the bug report thread - it can be difficult to tell what's still an open bug or issue sometimes), it would help me find areas that I could potentially come up with fixes and/or extensions to brush up my skills before applying with Smiteworks for the community developer program.

I'm playing in a SF group that is on a hiatus right now due to a player having real life interrupt, but I'm looking at helping the GM move from Roll20 to Fantasy Grounds when we resume - so I don't have as much exposure to SF in FG than I'd like to know where the current issues are, but have been getting caught up on the scripts and layouts.

I'd also be interested in potentially looking at what is necessary to support the Galaxy Exploration Manual

The only tracker available to the public is what you see in the bug report thread.

[damned]

Odd, we put a LOT of money down on the promise of the future state of FGU. Are you saying we should just shut up and get what we get when we throw our hard-earned money at a product?

The response from Doug and John has always been to buy the product for what it is today".
I have seen this comment made over a number of years.

[deer_buster]

The response from Doug and John has always been to buy the product for what it is today".
I have seen this comment made over a number of years.

Except during the kickstarter, lol

[damned]

Except during the kickstarter, lol

That is what kickstarter is all about. Is there any thing that you feel is unfulfilled from the Kickstarter at this time?

[deer_buster]

That is what kickstarter is all about. Is there any thing that you feel is unfulfilled from the Kickstarter at this time?
LOL, wow

Your response to me about investing in the kickstarter was that we should spend our money on what it is "right now"...and then you say this? Are you on meds?

[damned]

LOL, wow

Your response to me about investing in the kickstarter was that we should spend our money on what it is "right now"...and then you say this? Are you on meds?

I really do not understand your point.
It appears you are trying to debate semantics but I cant follow your point.

Lets break it down. You said

...Your response to me about investing in the kickstarter was that we should spend our money on what it is "right now"...

What I actually said in response to "investing in the kickstarter"

That is what kickstarter is all about. Is there any thing that you feel is unfulfilled from the Kickstarter at this time?

I wrote:

The response from Doug and John has always been to buy the product for what it is today".
I have seen this comment made over a number of years.

in response to you saying

Odd, we put a LOT of money down on the promise of the future state of FGU. Are you saying we should just shut up and get what we get when we throw our hard-earned money at a product?
I see no mention of kickstarter in this thread at this time.

I wrote

That is what kickstarter is all about. Is there any thing that you feel is unfulfilled from the Kickstarter at this time?
and you replied enquiring about my health?

LOL, wow
Your response to me about investing in the kickstarter was that we should spend our money on what it is "right now"...and then you say this? Are you on meds?

What is the response you are looking for here?
Is this a perfect platform? Hell no. Ultimately this is a business venture. You have a finite number of resources and you allocate them where it makes most sense to you. Mixing hobby and business is always going to see friction where passion is not fully met by commercial reality.

It is my understanding that for some time you were working (maybe volunteering is the appropriate word?) on ruleset and/or content updates. It is my understanding that you are aware of how long it takes to build, maintain and improve a complex rpg system like this. For anyone else reading this - its not a trivial thing and it takes a particular skillset, a lot of determination and a lot of time. And its not just a complex system - its one that keeps getting more complexity added with each content addition.

I dont want to annoy you further than you already seem to be, Im just not getting your point.

[Moon Wizard]

Going to go ahead and close this thread. The ongoing debate does not add to the original answer already provided.

Regards,
JPG