Looking to boost HUMAN VARIANT

[*Neuro*]

Hi.

So in this year I will start a new huge mega campaign with my IRL friends using FGU.

By that time for sure there will be the LOS + dynamic lighting.

Even with TASHAs customizing options I find the human variant choice underwhelming.

Every player would choose and elf as or any race with darkvision as it is far superior.

Everybody will play a dwarf with two +2/+2 bonus abilities with darkvision or half elf or elf. I think the advantages of these races are far superior than human variant +1/+1 and feat.

Also considering that all the game about exploring and torches is completely screwed up by the DARKVISION 60ft. There is no tension anymore.


I think the races are not balanced between them and Human variant is a fair example. Many people understimate the power of the SENSES (darkvision) even more than mobility sometimes.

Elves have high mobility and darkvision, in fact all my players play elves, since 2016.



I think by raising the human variant's two +1/+1 bonuses to +2/+2 and still have a feat, will make the human race more interesting and eventually we can start playing again with torches and the like, exploration back to some use.


And I would let my players use the Point buy at 27pts.

In this way I think it is balanced.

I am really surprised that at WOTC they don't realize how imbalanced are races and how useless are HUMANS as in RAW now.


What do you guys think?

[*Neuro*]

What I would to to make HUMAN race the center and more common race would be:

- Humans are all Humans Variant with 1 feat at 1st level and +2/+2 or +2/+1/+1 or +1/+1/+1/+1 that they can place as they want.
- All other races cannot move bonuses (for example mountain dwarves cannot move their +2/+2 to Str/Con)

I know these are home rules, but for the sake of having a better game for the future.

Maybe more similar to original B/X or BECMI.

Any other ideas or thought?


For now I think the above is the best solution I came up to.

Also I think these house rules will not affect any power balance in the game and I can GM a megadungeon as it is supposed to be.

Maybe they will still choose the non human races, but they should know the human is the most versatile, common and very strong.

We went from earlier editions where Humans where the Center of the World to the complete contrary and this trend will not go back with future editions due to the "politically correct" fashion that is common now.

[*Neuro*]

An alternative to house ruling could be to make players rolling HUMANS with better rolling methods while for non humans rolling with worse methods.

Like 4d6 , 6 times for non humans

6 +2d6, reroll ones, 6 times for humans

Just as an idea.

I like the 5e, don't want to go Old School (also D&D 5e is greatly supported on FG)

[damned]

2E is also very well supported on Fantasy Grounds.

[*Neuro*]

2E is also very well supported on Fantasy Grounds.

Ok thanks but is still other stuff to buy, while I have over 800 Euro of bought material of 5e stuff on FGC /FGU.

Also, I think we will stay on 5e for many years to come.

One thing I noticed is that I cannot change the point buy of 27 on the Character Wizard. Is there a way to customize the point buy in the system? seems not.

[JohnD]

I have barely looked at 5e in the last 4 years; didn't mind it as a player but couldn't stand it as a DM... but based off of what I've done in my AD&D games for humans, perhaps try;

- If using point buy, give Humans a 2 point kicker to the total they use (i.e. 27 instead of 25 or whatever 5e uses to create super heroes).
- non-variant Humans are strictly "regular folk" NPCs.
- if using dice rolling, use a slightly better methodology for Humans - say 3d6 6 times for non-Humans and 4d6d1 6 times for Humans.
- give a bonus proficiency point for Skills to Humans.
- house rule that only Humans can develop a skill to double proficiency.
- tell your players you are running a Humancentric game and world and as such you will limit other races to 1/race at any time and hope that your crew is more interested in playing in the world you want to create than making the bestest character evar.

I have a lengthy write up for character creation I give to all my players, but that is for AD&D, so probably not directly applicable to 5e.

[*Neuro*]

Thanks you for the advices.

My campaign is not against non humans, is against mostly DARKVISION! :)

It will ruin most dungeons. Making a human centric campaign is an excuse to make them use torches!

I am taking good note of what you wrote thanks everybody that commented and that will still do.

[Zacchaeus]

You can make the point buy anything you like in the Wizard. It's not restricted to any one value.

[JohnD]

Thanks you for the advices.

My campaign is not against non humans, is against mostly DARKVISION! :)

It will ruin most dungeons. Making a human centric campaign is an excuse to make them use torches!

I am taking good note of what you wrote thanks everybody that commented and that will still do.

Hmm... well you could just always change what Darkvision means in your game.

[*Neuro*]

You can make the point buy anything you like in the Wizard. It's not restricted to any one value.

I will give it a try then, thanks. If I can save the PC is ok.

[*Neuro*]

Hmm... well you could just always change what Darkvision means in your game.

Lol, in Italy all people are RULE LAWYERS basically.

They would never accept such a change of the rule.

But I think they could accept different POINTS for point buy or better rolling methods for humans.

[The Decepticon]

Lol, in Italy all people are RULE LAWYERS basically.

They would never accept such a change of the rule.

But I think they could accept different POINTS for point buy or better rolling methods for humans.

With Darkvision they can only see in gray. Color code the caves and dungeons and have the traps be different colors. They will always be carrying a torch with them there after. Also, perception checks with darkvision is at a disadvantage.

Very early on, you might have one of the traps be deadly and kill a PC or two. This would get them to switch to a human variant with the added benefits you are suggesting.

[LordEntrails]

Darkvision results in disadvantage on perception checks. You can make that mean more in your game if you are dungeon delving.

Note most discussions of the human variant in 5E tend to state that they are the most powerful race, at least at low-levels given things like immediate access to GWM/PAM. Personally, I've considered eliminating the variant choice in my campaigns because of this.

but do what works in your game :)

[charmov]

Of all the options i think +1 to four stats and a feat is pretty wicked. Would i use it? Probably. I can see it being pretty fun because i think the variant human is good but lacking a little something.

[Milmoor]

Tables tend to have group think. It looks as the OP's party values darkvision above feats. Other tables differ. It's hard to know who's right. In my opinion, darkvision is very nice, if everyone has it. If not, the group will still need lights. Scouting is easier with darkvision, but in FGU you'll notice that line of sight is very important as well. You cannot look around corners.

In my world the race of PC is more than a gimmick, it defines how the world reacts and his/her place in society quite a bit. Is your world reacting differently to dwarves than elves, and are the players embracing their elfiness? Or is everyone just playing numbers?

Variant human is considered to be one of the stronger options. Be careful in boosting it.

[esmdev]

My PCs have a favorite method of neutralizing the dark vision of their opponents. They cast a light spell on a crossbow bolt (sometimes an arrow) and shoot it into one of their opponents. This has the effect of neutralizing dark vision in the proximity of the opponents and leaving the party in the shadows. Since light is a cantrip in 5e it is limited by ammunition. It is a very effective tactic. You could use it against the party assuming that denizens of the under dark would have developed anti-darkvision tactics over the ages.

Additionally, you could give out magic weapons and armor that radiate a dim light. Choice, magic item or darkvision is generally a no brainer. The justification for illuminated weapons is all over the place. If you are feeling particularly evil you could give a weapon that glows only in the presence of an enemy. :)

Another idea is to run games with a lot of stuff on the surface and small 6-10 room underground areas some of which have their own lighting. The less darkvision is needed the more players will wish they had the extra feat. If you think about the Hobbit, 75% or more of the book was surface adventure, the exception being the goblin caves and the Lonely Mountain.

There are all sorts of options to make darkvision less if you want to.

[Griogre]

Personally I think your players are overvaluing darkvision. The -5 (disadvantage) on perception all the time is asking to be ambushed and surprised a *lot* in dungeons.

[*Neuro*]

In my world the race of PC is more than a gimmick, it defines how the world reacts and his/her place in society quite a bit. Is your world reacting differently to dwarves than elves, and are the players embracing their elfiness? Or is everyone just playing numbers?

Variant human is considered to be one of the stronger options. Be careful in boosting it.

My players are quote powerplayers and just chose elf race because of the stats. I have a party of 5 of which 4 elves and 1 half-elf (paladin.... ).

I don't think that a +1/+1 and feat is on par with an half elf or elf for the benefits they have.

Elves and half elves are far superior.

[*Neuro*]

Personally I think your players are overvaluing darkvision. The -5 (disadvantage) on perception all the time is asking to be ambushed and surprised a *lot* in dungeons.

Darkvision is a BEAST, especially if all the characters have it.

I did not remember about the quality of darkvision, it is important that I remember that darkvision means dim light and what you say above.

But even with these limitations, my players would have not chosen the human variant as is, other races are far superior, unless you want to make a special build.


I haven't decided yet, but I would like some sort of human centric game with the exception of maybe 1 non human.


I am playing since 2016, 5e is good but could be bettere, race wise. What I think is that in the future they will ruin everything as we are under the "politically correct" dictator ship, is everywhere now.

They will make races all the same and, if possible, humans the worst ones.

So i foresee the humans would be even worse in 6th edition D&D.

I hope not, but media pressure on Hasbro could be fatal on this.

:square:

[Milmoor]

I respectfully disagree. It's not the humans, it's the table, GM and players. Sure, some exotic races are better in certain circumstances, but on average, variant humans are rather good. If all the dungeons have low ceilings, everyone will play a small race. What is the standing of elves in your society? Do you have combats in plain sight, etc. Try to vary both combat and social circumstances, and other races will be a valid choice as well.

[*Neuro*]

I respectfully disagree. It's not the humans, it's the table, GM and players. Sure, some exotic races are better in certain circumstances, but on average, variant humans are rather good. If all the dungeons have low ceilings, everyone will play a small race. What is the standing of elves in your society? Do you have combats in plain sight, etc. Try to vary both combat and social circumstances, and other races will be a valid choice as well.

Maybe I should do first a survey to my players to see which races they would consider in the next campaign.

For sure if they say again 100% 5 elves and/or half-elves I will change something!


The environment is still TORIL/FAERUN and the modules/campaigns are the official ones from WOTC. Probably next one will be Dungeon of The Mad Mage or Princes of Apocalypse.

And we use all the expansions such as Xanathar, Tasha, Mordenkainen and Volo.


Why I still have the feeling that human variants, even with the feats, are underpowered.....

Am I missing something?

Btw my party is heavily on powerplay not much on RP, at least this is the style with RL friends, we are playing a bit as the old days when we were young with BECMI or AD&D 2nd edition!

[Milmoor]

Game style is very important. Some interesting reading here: https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/models/blacow.html

But... vary your combat in practise before you ask your players what they would want in theory, and the answers what they want will change. They are now happy with what they have, so they won't change unless you buy the change by providing large boosts or if you show then they are lacking certain things. Like climbing its strength, not dexterity. If they are elves, chances are they don't have a strength based fighter or paledin.

[esmdev]

As a DM, I try not to get to involved with what the players want to play. If there is something that doesn't make sense for the campaign I will just drop it prior to generation so they know not to consider it in the first place, but I don't do that very often. I really just don't care what they are playing because the characters are more a player's responsibility. So long as it is in the rules why should I care what they want to play.

My job is to create fun and robust adventures that people enjoy. If they want to power game and super optimize their characters, cool, I can do the same with encounters if I want. It is my job to figure out what the players are about and work with that. Customize your encounters and have them use tactics.

If you try and force players into your box you'll just end up with unhappy players. If darkvision is a must have no realistic modification to human or variants is likely to change their opinion. You could give humans an auto +2 to every stat but then you are trading a minor advantage like dark vision for a stat heavy potential superman (especially if die rolling characteristics). I think you would be better not worrying about game mods because it doesn't seem like it is likely to change their position without creating another problem for you down the road.

[damned]

If your players all want to play Elves let them play Elves.
Happy Elves are better than Grumpy Dwarves and Sad Humans.

[LordEntrails]

I'm not Grumpy!
Don't touch my beard!

[*Neuro*]

Wise comments. I will start harassing my players with the negative side of darkvision and see what happens.

Till now we played like for 5 years with darkvision considered as normal vision and that was a mistake for sure.


Still I am not convinced of the human variant. With the options in TASHAS, human variant is not strong as before. He should have at least +2/+1 and a feat instead of +1/+1 and a feat

[Milmoor]

You might want to talk this over with the players first. If you suddenly start changing things that has been true for five years, people can get annoyed.

[*Neuro*]

Thanks I will talk with my players.

I came up with the idea, if the players accept, to give the following options and using POINT BUY system:

- NON human: 27 points
- Human variant: 33 points

No standard human allowed.

No customizing origin allowed for NON HUMANS, so no Mountain Dwarves wizards....

This should push my players to play more humans with some exceptions.

Or in alternative dice rolling:

- NON humans: 4d6 discard lowest for 6 times.
- Humans variants: 4d6 discard lowest for 6 times, always rerolling 1. Do this for 5 series (so 5 sets of stats) and choose the one you want from the 5.

It could simulate the abundance of humans around.

As it is now humans PCs are extinct in my campaigns as they were dinosaurs.

:cry:

[BronzeDodger]

To reiterate some earlier comments I consider the variants humans to be the most powerful choice in the game. So many great builds that revolve around a first-level feat that are vastly less effective when you have delay the "real" beginning of the build until 4th level. To each their own - if your players value darkvision above all else my suggestion is just to let them play what they enjoy. Boosting humans with a result of having an all human party that rolls over opponents is just trading one issue for another. By the same token going out of your way to punish an all-Darkvision party doesn't seem to have much fun connected to the concept. Sure, throwing in some situations where the DISADV on perception checks, or not seeing colours, can come into play adds a twist to the game but it's not something that should dominate things.

Another to look at it: if you banned elves and they went all dwarves would you then ban dwarves? If the players like a "no torches" party why not just let them do that?

Regardless, as long the end result is that you and the players have fun, there's no wrong way to play the game.

[Milmoor]

Punishment is indeed a bad motivator. I tried to think of positive encouragement, but that's hard. The group painted themselves in a corner. I would use the correct perception rules and have a few opponents use anti darkvision tactics. But otherwise, it's up to the players. You could try a short humas only in between campaign, to get them out of their corner. Present them with lots of things they can solve because they have different resources now.

Run the same challenge multiple times perhaps? Once for the normal even party, once for humans, once for kobolds, etc. Each run gives them part of a magic key to break the time loop. Make the loop a surprise and give them prefab characters for this.

[BronzeDodger]

For a purely test scenario: create human mirrors of the the all elf/half-elf party and give each one a combat feat related to their specialty. Do a head-to-head fake combat. Assuming darkvision is background noise vs. any properly equipped party of humans (i.e. they have a couple of light sources) it may give a feel to the power of feats. I have a fighter build I have yet to really get to play (spear+shield+polearm master feat) where at level 1 not only is there an extra attack, but the AoO is also awesome. If the equivalent original PC is "sword and board" they get only one attack. If they are 2-weapon fighting, the don't have the shield AC. And when they close to attack, free AoO. Same sort of thing could be demonstrated with synergized feats for most classes I'd think.