CT deleted tokens not removed from map

[Weissrolf]

While I personally like this behavior (optionally) my assumption is that this is not intentional. When I delete a PC token from CT the corresponding token is not removed from the map. I think this also happens with NPCs, but didn't check again.

Reproduce:

- Create new campaign (tried CoreRPG and PF2).
- Create new PC character.
- Drag PC character to CT.
- Open map.
- Drag CT PC to map.
- Delete CT PC.

[bmos]

While I personally like this behavior (optionally) my assumption is that this is not intentional. When I delete a PC token from CT the corresponding token is not removed from the map. I think this also happens with NPCs, but didn't check again.This only occurs for PCs, NPC tokens are removed from the map.
I would actually like to see this behavior for NPCs also, but it's a very low priority to me.

[Weissrolf]

Yes, I would also like to have this for NPCs, but not for PCs. So it's the other way around currently. Still may be unintentional for PCs, so good to report and sorry for not being sure about NPCs (had to write the report in between work).

[Moon Wizard]

This was the original design (though done a very long time ago).

The idea was that removing the PC entry from the combat tracker temporarily (which some GMs do for split party and other scenarios) would not lose the token placement on the map. It is intentional that NPC tokens are remove on CT entry delete; since NPC tokens are ephemeral for most GMs, and they want them to go away when the CT entry is deleted. (or else they would have to radial menu delete every NPC token after deleting the CT entry).

So, the reason why PC vs. NPC deletion is different is based on expected use cases for the majority of users. And, to be honest, this has been in place for probably 7-8 years, with almost no discussion. So, the assumption that it is the use case for most users seems to hold.

Regards,
JPG

[Weissrolf]

Not sure about the usefulness (especially with FoW being deleted anyway), but it's also not much of a problem to delete single PC chars (when a player misses a session) or the whole group (when maps are switched). Just wanted to make sure that it is intentional and no bug as I only recently massively noticed it when I did tested TEST and LIVE back and forth with a dedicated PC char just for testing.

[Weissrolf]

Another reason why I had to make sure is that lately we had various PC vs CT related issues (player rolls not happening, or happening but not being applied) and I wondered if the tokens not being deleted were a symptom of that when I tried to renew the CT entries.

[Zykatious]

I like to leave my NPCs around after they die because players might want to see if they can loot them after combat, currently this is annoying as the only way is to leave them in the combat tracker and then they're still part of the combat rotation and it kind of sucks. Can we have some kind of way of deleting them from the CT and keep their token on the map?

[Moon Wizard]

@Weissrolf,
This may be related to another issue reported where dragging tokens between maps is not linking to combat tracker correctly causing target mismatch on rolls. A workaround is to always drag from combat tracker for each map.

@Zykatious,
There are a few extensions that do blood splats or death tokens; and keep track of all the "death tokens" for easier cleanup. You might look at those, if you're interested in something like that.

Regards,
JPG

[Weissrolf]

I usually don't move tokens from map to map, though. In the case where one player's rolls were not applied to targets I specifically removed him from CT and map and then added his char back to CT and map. Still the same problem, while I could roll from his char-sheet without problems. I suspect that the player could have logged out and back in to solve it. This is where I wanted to make sure that the PC token not being removed with the CT PC was intentional and not a side-effect.

The latter case of rolls not happening upon click seems unrelated, because a retry worked for each player (and GM) suffering from it. Looked more like a overload situation where FGU did not properly register the mouse-clicks on the damage buttons anymore.

[celestian]

Personally, I think if any token/entry from the CT is removed it should be removed from maps. NPC or otherwise.

[Griogre]

I agree, NPCs for sure should be removed from the map when deleted from the combat tracker. When I have 20 monsters on the tracker as soon as they are dead I want them out of there and off the map. However, as JPG mentioned, there are extensions to change this behavior, by adding tombstones or blood splats.

Since live PCs stay forever on the tracker it's really going to be a corner case when taking them off, given its been the way it has for years from a UI point of view, it's probably better not to change it unless you couple it with some sort of major combat tracker upgrade.

[celestian]

Since live PCs stay forever on the tracker it's really going to be a corner case when taking them off, given its been the way it has for years from a UI point of view, it's probably better not to change it unless you couple it with some sort of major combat tracker upgrade.

I don't see a real benefit of leaving the pc token on the map when the player character is removed from the CT. I find the behavior unexpected since NPCs do not.

[Zacchaeus]

I think the point is perhaps that PCs are never deleted from the CT - so it's a bit of a rare edge case if they are.

[celestian]

I think the point is perhaps that PCs are never deleted from the CT - so it's a bit of a rare edge case if they are.

Understood. I'm trying to lobby for that to change ;) I'm not sure a good reason to keep it like that is because its been that way for a long time but /shrug.

[Griogre]

I don't see a real benefit of leaving the pc token on the map when the player character is removed from the CT. I find the behavior unexpected since NPCs do not.

I think JPG mentioned the most common reason why you might want to pull some PCs from the tracker but leave them on the map: Split parties where part of the party gets in a fight while the rest of them don't. You are going to want to have the actually fighting PCs on the tracker and may not want the others there cluttering up the tracker.

[celestian]

I think JPG mentioned the most common reason why you might want to pull some PCs from the tracker but leave them on the map: Split parties where part of the party gets in a fight while the rest of them don't. You are going to want to have the actually fighting PCs on the tracker and may not want the others there cluttering up the tracker.

If the token somehow managed to keep a link to the character if it was replaced in the CT I could see it sticking around but... it doesn't. Even in the above situation you'd have to manually delete the tokens left if/when you replace the PCs in the CT.

[Weissrolf]

The current PC not being removed behavior was confusing enough that I confused it for a bug. That is because I regularly remove NPCs and knew those do vanish from the map when their CT equivalent is deleted. Since PCs are lower in number than NPCs and stay on maps longer we can manage. It seems like more work than just putting an asset token on the map for the few cases where we need a PC reminder token, though.

[Griogre]

@celestian I agree with you from a User Interface design point of view. This one of those theory vs. practice dilemmas, though. That difference has been around almost a decade. User's are use to it working the way it is. Changing it now is more likely to cause more confusion (and support tickets) than not changing it - and users don't like change without a benefit to themselves.

If and when the combat tracker gets a major rewrite would be the time to update it for existing rulesets, IMO. For new rulesets, I think it would be OK to have the NPCs and PCs deletion work the same way.

[Weissrolf]

Question is if Fantasy Ground sees itself as being written for old clients who cannot adapt to consistency changes or to new clients who expect a more consistent user-interface and user-experience. Single-click vs. double-click buttons are another point of regular confusion for my players. We are new customers, we never got used to the same thing working in two different ways and keep being astounded when "we always did it this way" is put down as an argument for not improving things.

Anyway, the question was answered. No bug, nothing to worry about. Thanks for that.

[kevininrussia]

I vote for it to change. Delete from combat tracker should remove from the map.

[damned]

Single-click vs. double-click buttons are another point of regular confusion for my players. We are new customers, we never got used to the same thing working in two different ways and keep being astounded when "we always did it this way" is put down as an argument for not improving things.

Windows is the same in many respects. Icons on the desktop take 2 clicks but most other things take 1 click. I dont recall ever having difficulty with it but I see plenty of people double clicking urls and menus etc and it confounds me!

Ive never noticed this PC removal issue but it does sound anomalous to me.

[bmos]

Windows is the same in many respects. Icons on the desktop take 2 clicks but most other things take 1 click. I dont recall ever having difficulty with it but I see plenty of people double clicking urls and menus etc and it confounds me!As someone who works in IT (mostly with seniors), I am forever astounded that they left it like that back in the early days of Windows.

[Steenkin Badges]

Question is if Fantasy Ground sees itself as being written for old clients who cannot adapt to consistency changes or to new clients who expect a more consistent user-interface and user-experience. Single-click vs. double-click buttons are another point of regular confusion for my players. We are new customers, we never got used to the same thing working in two different ways and keep being astounded when "we always did it this way" is put down as an argument for not improving things.

Anyway, the question was answered. No bug, nothing to worry about. Thanks for that.

So what you're effectively saying, is that when a new user comes along and disagrees with the way YOU want a feature to work, then Smiteworks should just change it? This sounds like a very limited view of the world. How about you just point things out once, and then let the devs decide what to do with that information using their experience as a guide. These passive-aggressive comments don't help anyone ("my way is better for 'reasons' but feel free to do it your way"). I have found that the loudest voices usually aren't the most helpful.

This is just my .02 and I won't be reading replies. Sorry devs for adding to the noise.

Devs, we appreciate your efforts and *love* your product.

[Weissrolf]

Speak your mind, but don't play my tongue.

[LordEntrails]

Changing a user interface on an existing application is not a simple issue. There are many factors to consider. Just a few of which include user expectations (including existing, new and potential users), documentation, and developer resources.

There are nearly an unlimited number of classes, seminars, blogs, and research articles on how to design a new UI. But rarely do UI designers talk about the factors that impact changing an existing UI. It's not an easy subject, nor is their much consensus I can find on the topic either. I'm not surprised there is not consensus on the forums here either.

[DM_BK]

It's a little odd because I just noticed this behavior (PCs still on the map after being removed from CT) in the last month....I thought it was odd that I never noticed that before. Not that it's a big deal...just seems like it didnt used to do that.

[Griogre]

No it's always done that. But, generally it's rare you take PCs off the tracker unless the party TPKs.

[SilentRuin]

As I argued in discord:

Leaving a PC token in the map after the CT entry for it has been deleted means next time you add it back into CT that leftover token is "dead to lighting effects" because its not getting stuff reattached that was removed during CT deletion. To me its a bug - you either delete the PC token from the map with the CT removal (not the other way) or you make sure that putting the CT entry BACK into the CT reestablishes the lighting logic to the token. Anything else is just wrong. Leaving a dead token on map for lighting is just wrong.

[Zacchaeus]

As I argued in discord:

Leaving a PC token in the map after the CT entry for it has been deleted means next time you add it back into CT that leftover token is "dead to lighting effects" because its not getting stuff reattached that was removed during CT deletion. To me its a bug - you either delete the PC token from the map with the CT removal (not the other way) or you make sure that putting the CT entry BACK into the CT reestablishes the lighting logic to the token. Anything else is just wrong. Leaving a dead token on map for lighting is just wrong.

I'm not seeing this. I add a token to the CT and activate a light effect. Place the token on the map and I see lights. I then delete the token from the CT and then replace it back onto the CT; activate the light effect and place it back onto the same (or any other map) and I see the light (that's if I am understanding the problem correctly).

[SilentRuin]

I'm not seeing this. I add a token to the CT and activate a light effect. Place the token on the map and I see lights. I then delete the token from the CT and then replace it back onto the CT; activate the light effect and place it back onto the same (or any other map) and I see the light (that's if I am understanding the problem correctly).
Well you would actually have to do what I complained about here and in discord.

The words “place it back on the map” was a dead give away you did not understand.

[Trenloe]

Well you would actually have to do what I complained about here and in discord.

The words “place it back on the map” was a dead give away you did not understand.
Keep it civil please. It's very easy to misunderstand when trying to recreate an issue, and Zacchaeus politely eluded to the fact that he might not be understanding the problem correctly.

[SilentRuin]

Keep it civil please. It's very easy to misunderstand when trying to recreate an issue, and Zacchaeus politely eluded to the fact that he might not be understanding the problem correctly.

I have to ask - which part in my two statements you quoted was uncivil? I was stating the facts there with no intent to do anything else.

[Zacchaeus]

Well you would actually have to do what I complained about here and in discord.

The words “place it back on the map” was a dead give away you did not understand.
Can you walk through the steps then. I understand place it back on the map just fine; but before that it needs to be replaced on the CT since it has been deleted from the CT. So what is it that I'm missing here?

[SilentRuin]

Can you walk through the steps then. I understand place it back on the map just fine; but before that it needs to be replaced on the CT since it has been deleted from the CT. So what is it that I'm missing here?

Pretty much you did it exactly except for “place it back on the map” - you look at the one still there and it will be disconnected from your new CT entry. As in you do not replace it on the map because you see it ON the map and think - well that's done and move on. Only much later do you run into all sorts of issues. Hence, my statement of it needs to be deleted like an NPC is - or at least updated to represent a working token - otherwise its dead misleading piece of junk in the map that will lead to people stating "Lighting effects are not working when I add them to the CT entry".

[LordEntrails]

Just to clarify for Mr Z, make sure you are deleting a PC token from the CT. FG leaves PC tokens on the map (it does not do this for NPC tokens). I believe SR is saying that lighting effects tied to PC tokens don't get removed from the left over token when the PC is deleted from the CT. Not sure if it should or not as I can see a case either way (i.e a dropped torch vs a true seeing spell)

[Zacchaeus]

Pretty much you did it exactly except for “place it back on the map” - you look at the one still there and it will be disconnected from your new CT entry. As in you do not replace it on the map because you see it ON the map and think - well that's done and move on. Only much later do you run into all sorts of issues. Hence, my statement of it needs to be deleted like an NPC is - or at least updated to represent a working token - otherwise its dead misleading piece of junk in the map that will lead to people stating "Lighting effects are not working when I add them to the CT entry".

YMMV but I have never run into this issue ever. The very few times that I've deleted a token from the CT I've also deleted the token from the map since in every case the character is dead or it is no longer needed for whatever reason. So it's not going to get forgotten about and then used as a token. I appreciate though that you are probably having an issue with one of your extensions and this is causing some inconvenience.

[SilentRuin]

Just to clarify for Mr Z, make sure you are deleting a PC token from the CT. FG leaves PC tokens on the map (it does not do this for NPC tokens). I believe SR is saying that lighting effects tied to PC tokens don't get removed from the left over token when the PC is deleted from the CT. Not sure if it should or not as I can see a case either way (i.e a dropped torch vs a true seeing spell)

No literally - if I change the PC CT entry effect without remembering to delete the old leftover token and delete it - its still there - so when I drop the PC back in - it no longer as any link (I mean it does it just does not exist any more) to the PC CT entry. Even though looking at it you would think it does.

[SilentRuin]

YMMV but I have never run into this issue ever. The very few times that I've deleted a token from the CT I've also deleted the token from the map since in every case the character is dead or it is no longer needed for whatever reason. So it's not going to get forgotten about and then used as a token. I appreciate though that you are probably having an issue with one of your extensions and this is causing some inconvenience.

Yes, when you have stuff like Aridhro's Automatic Effects data defining every single item/feature/trait/feat that can have a power and/or effect with it - and you have equipped effects automatically adding these things into action tab or the CT simply by adding the PC in - it becomes a thing you do when underlying data changes or expands. You delete the old CT entry and replace it. Granted - something more likely to happen when data is in "flux" and changing or expanding what it covers, but yes. I'm lazy. If I have some feature/trait/feat that got supported that was not supported before - or changed - then I delete the old ones in action tab and simply delete and redrop the PC - poof - done. Action tab populated.

And when I look to see if I've dropped the CT entry I usually go - oh must have done it already - as there it is. A dead, useless, old token in reality.