Light radius confusion

[Weissrolf]

To create a token light with 20" radius (4 grid squares in every direction around the token) I need to create a 22.5" sized light, else the light ends on a half-grid. So light radius is measured from the center of a token, not from its sides.

Is this intentional?

[Zacchaeus]

Yes.

[damned]

it should measure from the centre of the token.

[Weissrolf]

Ok, it seems to work different to other VTTs and to how people handle light at a table, but thanks for clarifying the intention. I assume it is also intentional then that the light presets do not visually match the rules of DND 5E or Pathfinder (1&2)?

[Zacchaeus]

They do in fact represent the rules as far as I can tell. A torch for example sends out light in a 20ft. radius. So if you measure out 20ft. from the centre point of any one square then it will reach out that far into the middle of all the squares 20ft away. There is nothing that I can see anywhere that says the light point starts at the edge of the grid square that the PC is standing in which I'm assuming is your house rule. But we can argue about that to here and back again so let's not bother. Suffice to say if you want light to go 22.5 ft instead of 20 then make sure that you create the appropriate effects.

[Moon Wizard]

Also, that means that torches held by ogres are actually shedding light to 27.5 ft. with that house rule. The center point implementation implies a fixed distance, whereas an edge-based implementation implies a variable distance for light sources based on creature size.

Regards,
JPG

[anathemort]

It might be worth considering spell targets too, where a sphere is always centered on a point (as opposed to a shape like a cube which is on an edge), and I think that matches the shape of a typical light source. Revealing half a standard grid square should be enough to reveal a (5e Medium) creature within as you're seeing up to the center of it, anyway.

[Weissrolf]

The point of origin for the light is an object (torch), not the center of the Ogre's heart. But even it it was then Ogres "control a space" 10 ft "wide". D20 games don't use facing and any creature can hold their shields, weapons or torches to any side and point of the space they control at any time (unless hindered).

Furthermore the 5E DMG asks to "choose an intersection of squares" as point of origin for areas of effect when grids are used, that would be the four corners of the token square. If you put four circles on all four corners then their combined area equals a circle about 2.5" larger (aka distance from the edges of a token). So measuring from the sides of a token would make things easier and be within the rules.

Then there are other (D20) grid based games that tend to count full grid squares instead of using more free floating forms like circles and cones of 5E, the latter of which being based on non-grid game-play to begin with. Having distances end in half-squares is inconvenient and a bit unattractive for these other systems. And with the 5E rule of "circular" area covering "at least half a square" = affecting that square it would make sense to make that visible even if you insist the point of origin being the center of a token square.

Coming back to the presets: The torch ends at 45 dim and the lantern at 65 dim, which means that they currently reveal tokens 2.5" further away than they should (aka too early). This can reveal tokens during (especially diagonal) movement that should still be hidden by darkness. Not a big thing, but if you insist on 2.5" at the point of origin (arguable) then you should also apply the same precision at the far end.

[Zarestia]

The point of origin for the light is an object (torch), not the center of the Ogre's heart. But even it it was then Ogres "control a space" 10 ft "wide". D20 games don't use facing and any creature can hold their shields, weapons or torches to any side and point of the space they control at any time (unless hindered).

This is a pen & paper / VTT game, not a simulator. If you want hyper-realism in your games, use either your imagination (what people have done since the 70's) or suggest somehting like a light<->token attacher. Then you can move your torch to your forearm or shield. Be extra careful when you move your forearm, as the torch moves too.


Furthermore the 5E DMG asks to "choose an intersection of squares" as point of origin for areas of effect when grids are used, that would be the four corners of the token square. If you put four circles on all four corners then their combined area equals a circle about 2.5" larger (aka distance from the edges of a token). So measuring from the sides of a token would make things easier and be within the rules.

This is for miniatures, not tokens. Areas of effect are specifically for spells (fireball and co.). This is atleast for 3.5E, Pathfinder & Starfinder afaik.


Then there are other (D20) grid based games that tend to count full grid squares instead of using more free floating forms like circles and cones of 5E, the latter of which being based on non-grid game-play to begin with. Having distances end in half-squares is inconvenient and a bit unattractive for these other systems. And with the 5E rule of "circular" area covering "at least half a square" = affecting that square it would make sense to make that visible even if you insist the point of origin being the center of a token square.

Coming back to the presets: The torch ends at 45 dim and the lantern at 65 dim, which means that they currently reveal tokens 2.5" further away than they should (aka too early). This can reveal tokens during (especially diagonal) movement that should still be hidden by darkness. Not a big thing, but if you insist on 2.5" at the point of origin (arguable) then you should also apply the same precision at the far end.

I count 8 squares (if rounding up half squares) from my medium token (which most players are in fantasy rulesets, bigger often have additional visions) to the north, east, south and west. I of course don't count the light in my space, because on a tabletop you can always see your token, otherwise you can't move it.

As there is no clear ruling we can discuss this for another 10 pages, probably not changing anyhting :)

Probably already on SW's radar, but I think later down the line custom saveable presets would clear up many things like this, then every GM/DM can rule it how he/she/it feels like.

[ddavison]

I think you can just add half of the token space/size to your light definition. Moon Wizard is working on some configuration screens where you can edit the default values for the presets.

[Weissrolf]

Of course we can manually change the values, but I argue that we shouldn't have to do these kind of quirky calculations.

A 20 ft torch should light a 20/40 ft area around the token , measured from the edges of a token (regardless of torch in the hand or light from the heart). And we should be able to input the number 20 and 40 to get that instead of 22.5/42.5. Especially since 5E counts circular half squares as being fully covered anyway, which equals the same outcome for both center and edge and should be visible as such.

Saved presets will be useful, the numbers to input will still be strange. The current torch preset lists 25/45 = 5" higher numbers than the torch, with the latter of which currently revealing 2.5" too much (=8.5 squares).

I do not make a distinction between miniature play and token play and a torch light is just as much an area of effect as a light spell. The 5E rules for that are printed on page 251 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Personally I only list those rules, because my interpretation was called "house rules" earlier, I only care for convenience and common sense (numbers entered should match display).

[Zacchaeus]

As I said earlier we can argue about it back and forward and get nowhere - so let's not do that. Please everyone.

[Weissrolf]

As said earlier, I am not even really arguing rules other than being called out for it. But 20/40 vision should be entered as 20/40 numbers and be visually represented the way tokens can see, not some half-grid representation when full grids are visible anyway.

Furthermore, it's bugged: Currently we have to enter dim 45 to see 42.5 from the center. Entering 40 only reveals 37.5 from the center, aka the source token will not see tokens 40 away. That is unless the bright area is set to within 2.4 of the dim one (37.6/40 works, 37.5/40 does not). It's all a mess of numbers, neither intuitive nor correct.

[LordEntrails]

I disagree, it's about interpretation and I prefer how it behaves now. But as asked, and lets not argue about it. If you want it, I put it on the wish list and the community can vote.

MOD: thread closed to prevent another diatribe. Those who wish to vote may vote here; https://fgapp.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=136106