Powers stored in Spells list of .mod stomped to 1 when dropped in actions tab

[SilentRuin]

I was struggling with an extension that would only ever load a power with the correct prepared charges correctly the first time. Delete it and do it again and it was stomped to a prepared value of 1. I then created a RAW FGU 5E project and attached the mod file and dropped the power with 3 charges (which I could see in the .mod's xml were prepared = 3) and it was stomped to 1. So evidently when I had the extension it would do it correctly until something in FGU got a hold of it and started whacking it to 1. I have no idea why or what is doing this at the moment.

And here is the kicker. I correct that prepared back to 3 - save it to the Spells list - and use that? It will work. Always. Forever. Only the .mod definition is being stomped to 1. Its a lot like that issue when char inventory was stomping stuff to one.

For sure I printed out the "prepared" value before and after my extension and it was 3 the first time. Next time before and after were 1. When it was the coming from a .mod file.

[SilentRuin]

And any suggestion on how I can write code around this would be welcome. Short of providing some dummy DB value into the power that holds the "correct" value that nobody would touch I don't know how to get around this.

[Kelrugem]

Just to clarify: Did you create the module without extensions? If not, then I'd test a module which was created without any extensions activated; not that an extension did something with the DB :) (of course, that may not be the issue)

[SilentRuin]

Just to clarify: Did you create the module without extensions? If not, then I'd test a module which was created without any extensions activated; not that an extension did something with the DB :) (of course, that may not be the issue)

No idea. The client.xml in the .mod file has the appropriate data. The power when my extension reads it directly before FGU gets its hands on it is correct. As I said elsewhere, my personal opinion is the good and careful are being punished in favor of the bad and sloppy who don’t set preparations properly before exporting spells.
To solve this for non fixed charges they just flatten us all.

I could be wrong if someone can show me a .mod file with powers that have more than one charge and that dropping them in the action tab they are still there. With no extensions.

[Kelrugem]

No idea.

Well, then that would be good to do :D But I shortly took the time: However, I have no idea of 5e; how do you save powers in 5e? I can only save it in spells sidebar. If you did the same, then it is a bit quirky; I added the power and it will be registered as spell when I drag it back into some sheet and not as power (which is why the "counter" is just one, because it is only about the memorized state) :) Then either click the magnifying glass of the new spell class (new if it created the spell class because of this drag&drop) and change it to a power class (by clicking on the icon next to Group Type); observe that the counter is still one. But when you drag then the power in this power class, then the counter will be correct.
Or, easier: First create a new power class (which is not standard/default power one; the default won't accept the drag&drop and will create the power always as spell), then drag&drop the power into that, the counter is correct :) (at least it did for me) Or use an existing power class besides the default one

However, I am not a 5e user, this was the first time that I created power and spell classes in 5e, so, I played just around a bit now; a more proficient user may have a better answer :)

[Kelrugem]

And just to emphasize: I did that with a module created in another campaign :) (Because my answer may read like that I did not do that via a module)

Hence, either one of your extensions is the culprit, or you do not drag it into a valid power class :)

[SilentRuin]

And just to emphasize: I did that with a module created in another campaign :) (Because my answer may read like that I did not do that via a module)

Hence, either one of your extensions is the culprit, or you do not drag it into a valid power class :)

I'm confused about what you did. First you go into FGU 5E char sheet actions tab. You create a power - add actions effects whatever. You go into spell preparation and add 3 daily for example. Then you have your action tab power. You drag the link into the SPell lists button on the far right of your app - don't care what group if any. Then you export that. The power now has the prepared number of 3. (You do this all with NO extensions). Then you create a new campaign in FGU 5E. You load your module that you exported. You drag the power you had 3 prepared daily in to your characters actions tab - POOF - it has 1. NO extensions.

Now if you use my extension (any code) it will work and have the correct 3 prepared charges. But if you remove that and load it again - in code or just by dragging - its been corrupted to 1 prepared.

Simple test. Should not be hard to duplicate at all. And requires NO extensions at any phase to see it fail. If you want to see it work - once - before FGU gets its mits on it - then sure you can do it by code.

So did you do that? Because that is what we are talking about. The "prepared" char sheet powers data being corrupted to 1.

[Kelrugem]

I'm confused about what you did. First you go into FGU 5E char sheet actions tab. You create a power - add actions effects whatever. You go into spell preparation and add 3 daily for example. Then you have your action tab power. You drag the link into the SPell lists button on the far right of your app - don't care what group if any. Then you export that. The power now has the prepared number of 3. (You do this all with NO extensions). Then you create a new campaign in FGU 5E. You load your module that you exported. You drag the power you had 3 prepared daily in to your characters actions tab - POOF - it has 1. NO extensions.

Now if you use my extension (any code) it will work and have the correct 3 prepared charges. But if you remove that and load it again - in code or just by dragging - its been corrupted to 1 prepared.

Simple test. Should not be hard to duplicate at all. And requires NO extensions at any phase to see it fail. If you want to see it work - once - before FGU gets its mits on it - then sure you can do it by code.

So did you do that? Because that is what we are talking about. The "prepared" char sheet powers data being corrupted to 1.

Yup, I did precisely that :) As I said, I also saw a "counter" of 1, but this was because it interpreted the power as a spell in the drag&drop. Therefore you first need to create a proper power group/class (not the default power group which won't accept any drag&drop, create another one), and to that group you can then drag the power :) I have drag&dropped it several times in my character and I always got three prepared charges for each entry :) (using my custom power from a module)

and of course I do not use any extensions since I am not a 5e user (except that WotC theme). See also the screenshot where I drag&dropped the spell Va Va Voom three times into the power group of Tanner, everything working for me:


https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45360&stc=1&d=1617366427


Using this module: 45361

(The name of the module ingame is actually test3 not Va Va Voom, that is just the file name)

Hence, I suggest that you look very careful on whether you actually drag&drop the power into a power group (not the default one!) and not accidentally a spell group :) Otherwise, please also create the module without extensions or use my module

[SilentRuin]

Yup, I did precisely that :) As I said, I also saw a "counter" of 1, but this was because it interpreted the power as a spell in the drag&drop. Therefore you first need to create a proper power group/class (not the default power group which won't accept any drag&drop, create another one), and to that group you can then drag the power :) I have drag&dropped it several times in my character and I always got three prepared charges for each entry :) (using my custom power from a module)

and of course I do not use any extensions since I am not a 5e user. See also the screenshot where I drag&dropped the spell Va Va Voom three times into the power group of Tanner, everything working for me:


https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45360&stc=1&d=1617366427


Using this module: 45361

(The name of the module ingame is actually test3 not Va Va Voom, that is just the file name)

Hence, I suggest that you look very careful on whether you actually drag&drop the power into a power group (not the default one!) and not accidentally a spell group :) Otherwise, please also create the module without extensions or use my module

I am so confused - honestly. Your mod absolutely does work. I have to be able to describe to the person making this .mod what they are doing wrong (not a .mod maker) and I honestly still don't understand this. I know I'm being stupid here FYI and I appreciate you taking the time to explain all this.

When I make a power, I create a new power group in the actions tab. I do all the stuff. I copy over to my spell list usually in a category I create for it though sometimes just let it go to undefined. It will always work. Even the failing .mod data will always work if I make a copy. So what am I missing here? I am unaware of any "power group" vs "spell group" - there is only one add power button on the action tab. Once you create it you copy it the spell list where these is only one type of category/group - a named one.

I drop theirs over virtually anything at all in the actions tab - I mean anywhere in it - and it puts it in with 1 charge. I drop yours anywhere in the actions tab - and it puts it in with 3 charges. They drop in the same action tab group also.

I'm missing what you mean by a power group vs a spell group. I don't know how to explain to them what they are doing wrong in the creation of this. It must be stupid basic that I'm missing. For absolutely sure there must be something here in what your saying I'm just to dense to see it. Here is a picture of your category being dropped into the same place in actions tab theirs is - and you can see theirs is set back to 1. What am I missing?

45363

Also was in a rush so I did not bother to use the No extensions version as with or without them I get the same results. Pure FGU .mod data thing going on here.

Also his is a true read only .mod I note your lock icon is not disabled (still black). Not being a .mod guy not sure how that happens.

[Kelrugem]

I am so confused - honestly. Your mod absolutely does work. I have to be able to describe to the person making this .mod what they are doing wrong (not a .mod maker) and I honestly still don't understand this. I know I'm being stupid here FYI and I appreciate you taking the time to explain all this.

When I make a power, I create a new power group in the actions tab. I do all the stuff. I copy over to my spell list usually in a category I create for it though sometimes just let it go to undefined. It will always work. Even the failing .mod data will always work if I make a copy. So what am I missing here? I am unaware of any "power group" vs "spell group" - there is only one add power button on the action tab. Once you create it you copy it the spell list where these is only one type of category/group - a named one.

I drop theirs over virtually anything at all in the actions tab - I mean anywhere in it - and it puts it in with 1 charge. I drop yours anywhere in the actions tab - and it puts it in with 3 charges. They drop in the same action tab group also.

I'm missing what you mean by a power group vs a spell group. I don't know how to explain to them what they are doing wrong in the creation of this. It must be stupid basic that I'm missing. For absolutely sure there must be something here in what your saying I'm just to dense to see it. Here is a picture of your category being dropped into the same place in actions tab theirs is - and you can see theirs is set back to 1. What am I missing?

45363

Also was in a rush so I did not bother to use the No extensions version as with or without them I get the same results. Pure FGU .mod data thing going on here.

Also his is a true read only .mod I note your lock icon is not disabled (still black). Not being a .mod guy not sure how that happens.

Hm, neither am I sure now :D The problem with the spell/power class is here not the case, the screenshot looks okay. It must be something with their module then, I think; at least I was not able to spontaneously see what is going on in that screenshot. I also tested it with read-only modules right now, and it still worked

[SilentRuin]

Hm, neither am I sure now :D The problem with the spell/power class is here not the case, the screenshot looks okay. It must be something with their module then, I think; at least I was not able to spontaneously see what is going on in that screenshot. I also tested it with read-only modules right now, and it still worked

Super appreciate you taking this time. You've proved that a .mod CAN be made with the "prepare" data preserved. I'm just not sure how this is not working. I'm going to post the actual record and see if that gives any hints. (hopefully its not that image link he has in it doing something as that should be legit).



<id-00018>
<actions>
<id-00002>
<atkbase type="string">fixed</atkbase>
<atkmod type="number">7</atkmod>
<atkprof type="number">1</atkprof>
<atktype type="string">melee</atktype>
<order type="number">2</order>
<savedcmod type="number">0</savedcmod>
<savedcprof type="number">1</savedcprof>
<savemagic type="number">0</savemagic>
<type type="string">cast</type>
</id-00002>
<id-00003>
<damagelist>
<id-00001>
<bonus type="number">0</bonus>
<dice type="dice">2d10</dice>
<statmult type="number">1</statmult>
<type type="string">force, 'Ram's Head</type>
</id-00001>
</damagelist>
<order type="number">3</order>
<type type="string">damage</type>
</id-00003>
</actions>
<cast type="number">0</cast>
<cost type="string">501 - 5,000 gp</cost>
<description type="formattedtext">
<linklist>
<link class="imagewindow" recordname="reference.imagedata.img_ring_of_the_ram_jpg@*">
<b>Image: </b>Ring of the Ram (DMG)</link>
</linklist>
<p>This ring has 3 charges, and it regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn. While wearing the ring, you can use an action to <b>expend 1 to 3 of its charges to attack </b>one creature you can see within 60 feet of you. The ring produces a spectral ram's head and makes its attack roll with a +7 bonus. On a hit, for each charge you spend, the target takes 2d10 force damage and is pushed 5 feet away from you.</p>
<p>Alternatively, you can <b>expend 1 to 3 of the ring's charges </b>as an action to <b>try to break an object </b>you can see within 60 feet of you that isn't being worn or carried. The ring makes a Strength check with a +5 bonus for each charge you spend.</p>
</description>
<group type="string">Spells</group>
<istemplate type="number">1</istemplate>
<level type="number">0</level>
<locked type="number">1</locked>
<name type="string">Ring of the Ram</name>
<nonid_name type="string">Chunky Ring</nonid_name>
<nonidentified type="string">This solid silver octagonal ring has a setting consisting of two solid sworls of silver shaped like stylised horns.</nonidentified>
<prepared type="number">3</prepared>
<rarity type="string">Rare (Requires Attunement)</rarity>
<ritual type="number">0</ritual>
<source type="string">Ring</source>
</id-00018>


Keep in mind I'm clueless on what a legit one looks like - but you can see "prepared" is 3 - and its only when its loaded in memory of FGU that it mysteriously gets whacked to 1. Unless I can solve it for him just going to tell him to deliver it as is and hope it's "Fixed" at some point. Or you explain how yours works and his does not! ;)

Here is yours for comparison...



<id-00002>
<actions>
<id-00001>
<atkmod type="number">0</atkmod>
<atkprof type="number">1</atkprof>
<order type="number">1</order>
<savedcmod type="number">0</savedcmod>
<savedcprof type="number">1</savedcprof>
<savemagic type="number">0</savemagic>
<savetype type="string">strength</savetype>
<type type="string">cast</type>
</id-00001>
</actions>
<cast type="number">0</cast>
<description type="formattedtext">
<p />
</description>
<level type="number">1</level>
<locked type="number">1</locked>
<name type="string">Va Va Voom</name>
<prepared type="number">3</prepared>
<ritual type="number">0</ritual>
</id-00002>

[SilentRuin]

Wait a second... his is under <spelldata> and yours is under <spell> - but I think that is just read only reference diff now that I think of it.

[Kelrugem]

Mine is now also spelldata after making it read-only; is seemingly just about that

I just copied his Ring of the Ram into my module: I always get 3 charges :D So, the data you parsed seems to work normally :)

Just to make sure: I am on the test server of FGU; if there was a bug, maybe it got fixed in test, in case you both are on the live server

[SilentRuin]

Mine is now also spelldata after making it read-only; is seemingly just about that

I just copied his Ring of the Ram into my module: I always get 3 charges :D So, the data you parsed seems to work normally :)

Just to make sure: I am on the test server of FGU; if there was a bug, maybe it got fixed in test, in case you both are on the live server

So can you describe how you created your .mod file? I'm at a loss as to why his does not work if you have that same data. It must be how you guys are creating your .mod files I assume. When you said "you got 1" at one point - how did you have that happen? No I'm in FGU 5E TEST server also. But which is he exporting from? Hmmmm......

[Kelrugem]

So can you describe how you created your .mod file? I'm at a loss as to why his does not work if you have that same data. It must be how you guys are creating your .mod files I assume. When you said "you got 1" at one point - how did you have that happen? No I'm in FGU 5E TEST server also. But which is he exporting from? Hmmmm......

I created the power in an action tab, setting its charges, then I drag&drop the power into the spells' sidebar. Then I type /export in the chat and export that power :)

I got the "1" when I drag&dropped it into an empty actions tab of someone; FG then created a spell class instead of a power group, and spell classes have no charges, there is just a toggle for whether it is memorized or not (therefore only one circle). But that may be that I filled in random data in my spell, for example it is a "Level 1" entry. Due to this FG probably thought that it was natively a spell and not a power which is why I got a spell class then. But since you are not dragging it into empty action tabs (and I see that the ring is in a power group in your screenshot) that should be not a problem

[SilentRuin]

I created the power in an action tab, setting its charges, then I drag&drop the power into the spells' sidebar. Then I type /export in the chat and export that power :)

I got the "1" when I drag&dropped it into an empty actions tab of someone; FG then created a spell class instead of a power group, and spell classes have no charges, there is just a toggle for whether it is memorized or not (therefore only one circle). But that may be that I filled in random data in my spell, for example it is a "Level 1" entry. Due to this FG probably thought that it was natively a spell and not a power which is why I got a spell class then. But since you are not dragging it into empty action tabs (and I see that the ring is in a power group in your screenshot) that should be not a problem

Also you copied in that spelldata with the level 0 and it worked for you.

Another odd thing in his .mod is I see a lot of things exported.



<entries>
<image static="true">
<librarylink type="windowreference">
<class>reference_list</class>
<recordname>..</recordname>
</librarylink>
<name type="string">Images</name>
<recordtype type="string">image</recordtype>
</image>
<item static="true">
<librarylink type="windowreference">
<class>reference_list</class>
<recordname>..</recordname>
</librarylink>
<name type="string">Items</name>
<recordtype type="string">item</recordtype>
</item>
<npc static="true">
<librarylink type="windowreference">
<class>reference_list</class>
<recordname>..</recordname>
</librarylink>
<name type="string">NPCs</name>
<recordtype type="string">npc</recordtype>
</npc>
<spell static="true">
<librarylink type="windowreference">
<class>reference_list</class>
<recordname>..</recordname>
</librarylink>
<name type="string">Spells</name>
<recordtype type="string">spell</recordtype>
</spell>
<story static="true">
<librarylink type="windowreference">
<class>reference_list</class>
<recordname>..</recordname>
</librarylink>
<name type="string">Story</name>
<recordtype type="string">story</recordtype>
</story>
</entries>


Not that it should matter I would think - but hopefully not something to do with having more than just spelldata in the .mod. I'm just utterly stumped how yours works and his does not with the same exact data.

[Kelrugem]

Can the mod be downloaded somewhere? For testing purposes; you may also want to contact Zacchaeus on Discord as he is the master of modules :D Maybe he knows a (common) mistake in the process of creating modules which may lead to that

[SilentRuin]

Can the mod be downloaded somewhere? For testing purposes; you may also want to contact Zacchaeus on Discord as he is the master of modules :D Maybe he knows a (common) mistake in the process of creating modules which may lead to that

Will check in with him thanks - I'm at my wits end. Something in the engine seems to be interpreting his stuff as a spell instead of a power from what you have seen. Just not sure how.

[Aridhro]

I tried to understand all of this.
First of all, thank you very much for looking into it.

All that data comes from this method:
A. I export copied the item templates to campaign db and edited the xml, where I changed <item template> to <spell>
The item template has a lot of information I don't use, but I did use the description. I only needed the description. So if needed I can delete lines that corrupt.
Then I copied the spell to a character (as a spell)
Added serveral effects
changed the group type from spells to power (but did not change the name)
When it is set to power, you can prepare charges (in spell group type you cannot)
I copied the power back to the spells tab
exported the module. (NOT IN TEST, I wouldnt even think to do that)

So either
- the extra lines (from the item xml) corrupt something
- I need to rename the Group Name to something other than Spells (weird, but if that works, fine)
- The group type is already POWER in stead of spell,
... Maybe I should redo some things. Make the POWER GROUP (with power type set) first, drag the power from spell tab to Power group, and export again.
I also try to make a new one, from the ground up.
And compare what works and what not.

I surely hope I just need to redo those with charges and not the full module.

[SilentRuin]

I tried to understand all of this.
First of all, thank you very much for looking into it.

All that data comes from this method:
A. I export copied the item templates to campaign db and edited the xml, where I changed <item template> to <spell>
The item template has a lot of information I don't use, but I did use the description. I only needed the description. So if needed I can delete lines that corrupt.
Then I copied the spell to a character (as a spell)
Added serveral effects
changed the group type from spells to power (but did not change the name)
When it is set to power, you can prepare charges (in spell group type you cannot)
I copied the power back to the spells tab
exported the module. (NOT IN TEST, I wouldnt even think to do that)

So either
- the extra lines (from the item xml) corrupt something
- I need to rename the Group Name to something other than Spells (weird, but if that works, fine)
- The group type is already POWER in stead of spell,
... Maybe I should redo some things. Make the POWER GROUP (with power type set) first, drag the power from spell tab to Power group, and export again.
I also try to make a new one, from the ground up.
And compare what works and what not.

I surely hope I just need to redo those with charges and not the full module.

Yeah spell is a keyword - if you edited the XML at all then that will be the issue.

[Aridhro]

I think some of the "item" lines corrupts it.

I made a power Ring of the Ram 4 as a brand new power
I Ring of the Ram 3 (copy of the original) deleted all the lines I did not needed (unless they also exist in Ring of the Ram 4)
I made Ring of the Ram 2 (a simple copy of my original)
Exported everything without extension (equipped effects was loaded, so it could be the issue)

Result:
loaded the .MOD with Ring of the Ram 2, 3 and 4
Ring of the Ram 3 and 4 work fine
Ring of the Ram 2 is pushed back to 1

Do you know how to delete full xml lines fast with identical syntaxis? I use notapad++

Want to copy my campaign (for insurance), delete all those excess lines and export.

[SilentRuin]

I think some of the "item" lines corrupts it.

I made a power Ring of the Ram 4 as a brand new power
I Ring of the Ram 3 (copy of the original) deleted all the lines I did not needed (unless they also exist in Ring of the Ram 4)
I made Ring of the Ram 2 (a simple copy of my original)
Exported everything without extension (equipped effects was loaded, so it could be the issue)

Result:
loaded the .MOD with Ring of the Ram 2, 3 and 4
Ring of the Ram 3 and 4 work fine
Ring of the Ram 2 is pushed back to 1

Do you know how to delete full xml lines fast with identical syntaxis? I use notapad++

Want to copy my campaign (for insurance), delete all those excess lines and export.

Extensions are not the issue. Editing anything directly - is. Don't. Define it via FGU only is my advice.

[Kelrugem]

You could compare the formatting of item template and spell to see how to properly convert one into the other :) (in case you want to stick with xml editing)

[Aridhro]

Ok, I'll try now. Wish me luck

[Kelrugem]

Hehe, good luck :D

[Aridhro]

Luckily I found a simple solution to tackle this awful bug.
Mostly thanks to your help.

First of all
If you make copy a spell to the action tab it never becomes a raw POWER. It always receives an <group type="string">Spells</group>, if you didn't define a group. When I loaded the stuff via Equipped Effects, it received <group type="string">Equipped Effects</group>.
The thing is: raw POWERS don't have that line
And to make a spell with that line become a POWER ... you simply have to delete that line.
The only thing happening then (visually in the action tab of the character): All spells turn into RAW POWERS
A simple CTR+F <group type="string">Spells</group>, Replace "" did the trick, 1400 lines in PHB and 800 in DMG (= characters + spell database)
45379
(visually: raw POWERS have no SPYGLASS beside the group name)

When the extension loads the POWER, it is not predefined to a group and simply fits into the group you want it to fit.

Now I know this, I won't change the way I do things because:
If you need to make 1000 POWERS from the ground up (name, effects, copy description, edit description, populate with links, ...) it is simply not worth it.
Copying them from spell tab to the action tab and deleting their <group type="string">Spells</group> is the most efficient way IMO.

Update 1 was already a though one.

Good Easter weekend to you two. Your help was golden.

[Kelrugem]

Luckily I found a simple solution to tackle this awful bug.
Mostly thanks to your help.

First of all
If you make copy a spell to the action tab it never becomes a raw POWER. It always receives an <group type="string">Spells</group>, if you didn't define a group. When I loaded the stuff via Equipped Effects, it received <group type="string">Equipped Effects</group>.
The thing is: raw POWERS don't have that line
And to make a spell with that line become a POWER ... you simply have to delete that line.
The only thing happening then (visually in the action tab of the character): All spells turn into RAW POWERS
A simple CTR+F <group type="string">Spells</group>, Replace "" did the trick, 1400 lines in PHB and 800 in DMG (= characters + spell database)
45379
(visually: raw POWERS have no SPYGLASS beside the group name)

When the extension loads the POWER, it is not predefined to a group and simply fits into the group you want it to fit.

Now I know this, I won't change the way I do things because:
If you need to make 1000 POWERS from the ground up (name, effects, copy description, edit description, populate with links, ...) it is simply not worth it.
Copying them from spell tab to the action tab and deleting their <group type="string">Spells</group> is the most efficient way IMO.

Update 1 was already a though one.

Good Easter weekend to you two. Your help was golden.

Good Easter :)

I just skimmed your method, but I am not sure whether or not it is intentional that the default Power group is not accepting typically saved powers via drag&drop (while custom power groups do)

Hence, it may be worth to report that behaviour if you wish :) it could also be however that the spell saving stuff is not meant to be used for powers (initially), so, may be rather a feature request than a bug report :)

[Aridhro]

I'm fine being the only one knowing how to work around it ;-)
Gives me POWER :p

[SilentRuin]

I'm fine being the only one knowing how to work around it ;-)
Gives me POWER :p

Well glad THAT is over for me ;)

[Kelrugem]

Or you switch to 3.5e/PF1, we do not have this problem :P We also have action tabs for NPCs for example allowing drag&drop for custom powers and spells also for NPCs :P

[SilentRuin]

Or you switch to 3.5e/PF1, we do not have this problem :P We also have action tabs for NPCs for example allowing drag&drop for custom powers and spells also for NPCs :P

3.5E? That's like 1.5E LESS!

I like to go with the greatest and latest myself. Though I do agree the PC/NPC structural differences are a pain in so many areas.

Still, that's like saying "Classic" is still a thing. I mean really.... ;)

[Kelrugem]

3.5E? That's like 1.5E LESS!

I like to go with the greatest and latest myself. Though I do agree the PC/NPC structural differences are a pain in so many areas.

Still, that's like saying "Classic" is still a thing. I mean really.... ;)

Sometimes less is more ;)

[SilentRuin]

Sometimes less is more ;)

And sometimes it's just... well... less ;)