Hidden condition doesn't apply flat-footed to targets for effect evaluation

[flashgordon]

I am trying to create a character effect for sneak attack (using "IFT: flat-footed; DMG: 1d6 precision") I noticed that it doesn't consider a target flat-footed if I have the Hidden condition (whether the target as an effect target or with no effect targets listed). They do seem to get the -2 to armor class from being flat-footed (I see [DEF EFFECTS -2] in the attack roll dialog), but the sneak attack damage isn't applied.

[Trenloe]

"flat-footed" is only extrapolated from conditions on a target, not on the targeting actor. If your target is considered flat-footed to you and doesn't have an effect on them that makes them flat-footed, then apply flat-footed to them for your actions, or use a targeted effect.

The conditions that are consider a target flat-footed when on to a target are: confused, grabbed, paralyzed, prone, restrained and unconscious.

See the conditions list in the Wiki effects page for details of what conditions automation in the ruleset: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996643388/PFRPG2+Effects#Conditions

[MaxAstro]

Is there an equivalent of IFT to check for effects on the person making the attack? If so, you could create a separate effect for sneak attack that applies the bonus damage if the acting character has the Hidden or Invisible conditions... however you might then run into the damage stacking incorrectly if for example you are invisible and attack a target that is flat footed.

[Weissrolf]

So if a target is "blinded" then "or attacker is undetected if you're being attacked (you're flat-footed)" does not apply flat-footed to a blinded target automatically?

[flashgordon]

Is this something that would be possible to add on the pathfinder ruleset, or does it need a change to CoreRPG?

[Trenloe]

Is this something that would be possible to add on the pathfinder ruleset, or does it need a change to CoreRPG?
As it's specific to the rules of Pathfinder it would need to be done in the Pathfinder ruleset.

Looking at the code, I do actually have it coded to see if the attacker is undetected, hidden or invisible, it doesn't look at the degree of detection between the attacker and defender. This can lead to issues where the condition doesn't apply to all attacker -> defender actions. I'll leave it in for now, but this is not what I plan for the ruleset as it doesn't implement the various situations where it won't apply. So be aware that it's currently a blanket condition and if it doesn't apply to everyone (e.g. different senses or someone succeeds/critically succeeds at a "seek" action) and it will need to be removed and flat-footed applied via targeted effects if it doesn't apply to everyone.

EDIT: Checking the code further: Blinded also makes a target flat-footed to all attacks, which is not correct as it only affects sight based senses, and doesn't take into account the degree of detection between actors. I'll leave this in for now, but it will change in future, and be aware of its blanket nature.

[Weissrolf]

Thanks for the clarification. I did some tests to confirm the mechanics.

Attacker HIDDEN: DEF EFFECTS -2 to target
Target BLINDED: DEF EFFECTS -2 to target
Attacker HIDDEN + target BLINDED: DEF EFFECTS -2 to target

So in all three cases flat-footed is properly applied. Should the "IFT: flat-footed" effect not work then? Or is the DEF EFFECTS not tagged as flat-footed?

Blinded causing flat-footed should work for most encounters, because targets having precise senses other than sight are rather rare (imprecise = hidden). I did not find any scent creatures without "imprecise" in Bestiary 1 + 2 and only a very few tremorsense ones. No creatures in B1/2 seem to come with blind-fight either (which comes with caveats). So blindness applying flat-footed seems to be correct for the majority of cases.

[Trenloe]

The conditions that consider a target flat-footed when on to a target are: confused, grabbed, paralyzed, prone, restrained and unconscious. These are the conditions (plus flat-footed) that the IFT: flat-footed uses.

[Weissrolf]

I am confused. Blinded does apply the DEF EFFECT -2 (all enemies are undetected or hidden to the blinded target and thus the target is flat-footed to them). So why not add flat-footed as well then?

Anyway, as a workaround for the OP one could add IFT: BLINDED; DMG: 1d6 precision. No idea if multiple conditions can be put into a single IFT or if multiple IFT effects have to be added.

[Trenloe]

I am confused. Blinded does apply the DEF EFFECT -2 (all enemies are undetected or hidden to the blinded target and thus the target is flat-footed to them). So why not add flat-footed as well then?
I've explained all of this above. I've made a generalization in the code that will change in future to better reflect the rules. The separate effects code doesn't match IFT: flat-footed to the blinded condition, because RAW the blinded condition does not in itself apply the flat-footed condition.

From page 618 in the Core Rules: "You can’t see. All normal terrain is difficult terrain to you. You can’t detect anything using vision. You automatically critically fail Perception checks that require you to be able to see, and if vision is your only precise sense, you take a –4 status penalty to Perception checks. You are immune to visual effects. Blinded overrides dazzled."

[Weissrolf]

Indeed the BLINDED condition specifically does not apply the flat-footed condition to the blinded character. UNCONSCIOUS makes that distinction even more clear.

But: In almost all cases the BLINDED condition applies the UNDETECTED or HIDDEN condition to the blinded characters targets, which in turn does give the blinded creature the flat-footed condition against everyone trying to hit it. Internally this already is accounted for by the DEF EFFECTS -2 calculation. Good to have clarified this part, because just last session we had a blinded enemy and wondered what kind of automation would or would not apply.

Like the OP wrote, it would also be nice if the automation would also apply the relative flat-footed condition. So consider this a feature request.

Until then we need to manually apply these or try workarounds, like IFT: blinded and the like.

[flashgordon]

Until then we need to manually apply these or try workarounds, like IFT: blinded and the like.

This workaround won't actually work though. As far as I am aware, there is no way of doing a logical OR on multiple IF/IFT tests. Without this, the "workaround" would involve multiple effects. For example, Sneak Attack might look like this:

IFT: flat-footed; DMG: 1d6 precision
IFT: blinded; DMG: 1d6 precision
IF: hidden; DMG: 1d6 precision

And the problem here is that if the target is flat-footed and blinded and I am hidden, sneak attack damage gets applied 3 times. And actually, I'm not sure if Hidden will work in this case. Does the IF check your condition relative to the target?

[Weissrolf]

Theoretically we could create a flat-footed to targets effect via the shift-drag effect mechanic. Unfortunately it only seems to work via dragging, not via clicking, else we could also combine it with the new one-button applies all spell effects button (or at least with multiple targets at once).