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Tropico
June 27th, 2007, 15:45
Hey guys..

By now I've played a few games on FG2. It's been awesome fun and reminds me a lot of my old MUDing days before I learned too much about the inner workings of the code and ruined the game for myself. I'm definitely very psyched to start DMing myself soon :D

However, one shortcoming about FG2's type of online-pnp play has become very apparent to me, and that is a general lack of speed. The game and especially combat tends to "lag" and bog down when the players or the DM try to fiddle or adjust stuff on the fly.

The following is a few tips I've found while reading around the web on this issue. Mostly what I've found is that FG2 already does a huge amount to speed up everything; most tips I found on speeding up d20 involved simplifying math and record keeping, something which FG2 already has handled for us, or reducing the number of rolls, which isn't a big deal anyways with FG2's automatic dice. The issue with FG2 is mostly being able to move and react in a snappy way as a DM, and in keeping everyone engaged for long enough that their turn comes around again and they're ready to go.

Anyway, these are tips that I think would help speed up play while at the same time not changing the d20 game and having a good chance of being accepted by players with little fuss. I would appreciate anyone, especially those FG2 veterans out there, who could contribute their own wisdom in tips and pointers, since their own knowledge of FG2 and online tabletops surely exceeds my own by a mile :)

Also, several of these are irrelevant when you're using TeamSpeak, but a lot of people don't, especially newcomers, so I included them anyway.


Do all shopping and char-sheet stuff 'offline' before the game

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've seen that a sizable block of time is spent simply looking over the character sheets and 'going shopping' for stuff. I think it would pay well to set up a blog or an email address where players might send all questions and actions of this type during the days before the game, so that when it's time to play everyone is that much closer to just sitting down and playing. Maybe you could even go as far as requiring characters to be 'play ready' before logging in to the game (although that may not be feasible, since would depend entirely on how many people are wanting to play).

Design just a few *special* combats

Instead of having your adventures be a string of combat-focused encounters, possibly try to focus the whole thing more on stuff like exploration, discoveries, puzzles, and people, while keeping the combat whittled down to maybe 2 or 3 very central, very interesting, very challenging fights. The typical quickie 'filler-fight' we take for granted in real PnP and MUDing becomes a monster time-sucker when transported to an online tabletop. Instead of seeing this as a problem, we might see it as a great opportunity to have all our combats be something special and memorable.

Make maps that focus on encounters or scenes

Large maps that detail an entire town or an entire sprawling dungeon become major 'fiddlers' and are guilty of taking up our playing time with mechanics. Instead, maybe consider making maps to be more 'modular' in scope, with each map representing one self-contained encounter area, one dungeon section, or one 'scene' in your story, where it's unnecessary/impossible to casually venture outside the edges of the map.

Preload all maps and images

This is an obvious one.. There's no need for that "Loading..." image to ever show up for your players when FG2 has the feature to pre-load. If you take the time to preemptively load images and maps that the party is getting close to, you eliminate all the little load times, which together, add up to quite a decent bit of time.

Have room and actions descriptions ready and hotkey'ed

Also an obvious one, but I'm not just talking about room descriptions, also consider hotkey'ing stuff like, "You swing your weapon but miss", "Your sword hits! Roll for damage", "Critical threat - roll to confirm"... etc. This comes from my MUDing background where EVERY action was a canned response from the game algorithm. Yeah if you do it too much it'll suck the atmosphere right out of your game, but done in moderation I think it can really speed things up (MUD combats are boring, but heck they are FAST).

Use Joshuha's 'automatic rolls from character sheet' scripts

These little scripts which are discussed and detailed out in this thread (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6015) are a godsend for game speed. I couldn't imagine playing without them now. All hail Joshuha. Yep.

Preroll initiatives

One PnP DM I had had us roll our initiatives as soon as we walked in the door. He himself already had all his NPC's initiative rolls already rolled out along with their other stats. He also used index cards to hold our stats and our place in the round. As soon as we got into an encounter, he simply called out a name and asked for an action. When combat was over, he asked us to roll for the next encounter. The result was very snappy play.

Alternatively, never roll initiatives at all, just order combat rounds by everyone's init. modifier and be done with it. Initiative is one of the few places where EVERYONE has to roll at the same time (and the DM many times) it's a classic situation that one guy will hold everyone else up and prevent the combat from getting rolling.

Assume 10 on monsters' initiatives

If your players are set against eliminating their init rolls, then simply eliminate all YOUR init rolls. Every little bit that you streamline counts.

Roll a single initiative for monsters and move them as a group

In my experiences as a player so far, Ive found that when the round sporadically stops and goes depending on how many monsters there are, my mind starts to numb to the whole thing. If you move monsters as a group in a single turn in the round it will end up being more predictable, more 'followable' and more engaging to the player in the end.

"Monster - Monster - Player - Monster - Player - Monster - Monster - Monster - Player - Monster - Player" is just more tedious to follow than "Player - Player - Monsters - Player - Player". Then again, players may be set against this (though I think it unlikely?)

Always let players know who's got the current turn

Regardless of whether you move as a turn or not, you need to hotkey some turn announcements announcing which Player/NPC/Monster has the turn. This is just to let the player know that yes, you are taking your turn and everything hasn't ground down to a halt suddenly. This should really be a default behavior of FG2 itself imho, but as long as it isn't, we should compensate for it.

Roll damage together with to-hit

The classic dice-pooling thing that speeds up everything just as well in real PnP as it does in online tabletop. In MUDs it isn't even an issue at all; swing, AC resolution, damage and result description are all just one instant pulse, no waiting, invisible. We should try to get as close as we can to that.

Use static 'averaged' damage

This one players could definitely be against using. Just no damage rolls, use the average or the average + 1 of the whatever damage dice you have. I think this could speed up the game not only by having less rolls, but also by increasing the overall damage done by everyone (but it could also bring balance issues, I can't say)

Preroll spot and listen checks

This one is an AWESOME tactic that the same DM above also used. he would simply have us roll a batch of d20s before playing, note them down, and have those be our Spot and Listen results for the session, crossing them off as he went along. Not only did this speed up play, but we never knew when we were actually making a Spot or Listen check in the first place - we just got told the results. This eliminated the whole immersion-breaking "I know there's *something* there because I had to roll, I just don't know what it is" thing that happens when the DM has you roll the check during the game. If I can recommend just ONE tip out of all of these, it would be this one - it really does improve the game a lot.

Give XP in a batch at the end of the game

I've found goal-based XP instead of combat- or encounter-based XP is generally a good idea, but it becomes doubly so in the context of OTs. Just have a list of stuff the party can achieve within the adventure and how much XP each thing is worth, like "Retrieve the Golden Chalice - 1000 XP; Clear dungeon of monsters - 800 XP; Find special secret room at the end - 550 XP; Detect the Duke's betrayal before it happens - 750 XP" and so on. At the end just look at what the party accomplished, add it up and give it out. Easy and simple.

Have a pre-arragement on what to do if someone becomes unresponsive

Something like, "If I'm lagging out or AFK, just have my character heal whoever needs it the most, and run from combat if necessary" or "Just have my character try to tank and protect the mages as well as he can" can put an end to those lulls where everyone going "Dude? you there? it's your turn.. dude?" FG2's little 'sleepy Z' icon is a great and convenient measure for this, I think.

Have a pre-arragement on what to do if someone drops connection

If someone drops out without warning do you immediately know what you do? If it was something with FG2, can you get in touch through MSN or Yahoo? If their whole connection dropped, should you keep going with their char? Keep going without their char? Stop the game? This needs to be known beforehand. Playing MUDs brings many similar situations, so I've seen it happen.

Tropico
June 27th, 2007, 15:45
Whew, that was long :p Now I realize this may all come off a little weird seeing as I haven't DM'ed my first FG2 game yet... but I'm the type of person that really likes to research and have a handle on something before doing it. If I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna take the time and do it right you know? :)

To close, I ask anyone with more experience and better knowledge to please help me out and contribute to my little list and help it grow to someday be a great OT DMing 'specialty' guide. You will have my gratitude and possibly the gratitude of other future newbs! :rv:

John_Geeshu
June 27th, 2007, 18:00
I could, if I wanted to, challenge most if not all of the assertions you made here. But, it is an honest attempt to make things better. Just be careful that you do not suck the life out of the game by trying to "speed things up".

Griogre
June 27th, 2007, 18:21
Tropico, many people get a group (ie Yahoo or Google) for dealing with logistics between sessions. They have message boards and places to store files and pics.

I have my players level up their characters in between sessions and usually *before* they actually make the level so when they do level it only takes a few minutes. I give out experience after the session by posting it on my group.

Voice *greatly* speeds combat. Most people use it for that. You can still require all roleplaying be done by typing.

Tropico
June 27th, 2007, 18:44
I could, if I wanted to, challenge most if not all of the assertions you made here. But, it is an honest attempt to make things better. Just be careful that you do not suck the life out of the game by trying to "speed things up".

Yeah.. :o I'm aware that I have heavy tendencies towards the 'mechanical', stemming mostly from my past gaming background. This is why I ask for input from the veterans and why I have not actually DM'ed anything as of today; I know I'm not ready yet.

Please, if you see anything particularly glaring in my post feel free to tear it apart; you will get no hard feelings from me. On the contrary, I would welcome your perspective.

I am actually chafing very much that I can't make your game tonight (it's my frickin birthday today, and I have.. social obligations), I'd love to just play and watch how it's done.



Voice *greatly* speeds combat. Most people use it for that. You can still require all roleplaying be done by typing.

Mixing voice for OOC and text for 'in-game' is an awesome idea.. I think it would work very well.

Dragonstar
June 27th, 2007, 19:40
There are a lot of good points there! Some are going to work for some groups, some won't.

richvalle
June 28th, 2007, 06:14
Nice post!

One thing I have run into in regards to this:


Roll a single initiative for monsters and move them as a group

In my experiences as a player so far, Ive found that when the round sporadically stops and goes depending on how many monsters there are, my mind starts to numb to the whole thing. If you move monsters as a group in a single turn in the round it will end up being more predictable, more 'followable' and more engaging to the player in the end.

"Monster - Monster - Player - Monster - Player - Monster - Monster - Monster - Player - Monster - Player" is just more tedious to follow than "Player - Player - Monsters - Player - Player". Then again, players may be set against this (though I think it unlikely?)

Is that if you have a large group of bad guys, it can take a long time to get back to the players.

It might be better to do: player-player-small group of monsters-player-small group-player-player.

Also, moving all the bad guys at once has tatical implications. i.e. it will be easier for them to flank and coordinate their moves.

Griogre
June 28th, 2007, 06:28
richvalle's point is valid. For grunts I usually group them and roll leaders seperately.

However if what you are looking to do is speed combat, then there are advantages to having the monsters all move together. This is because you can do the same for the players. IE if you have an order like PC1, PC2, Monsters, PC3, PC4, PC5. You can tell PC1 & PC2 to go at the same time, then do the monsters and tell the rest of the PCs to go. You will save time even though in some cases PC2 is going to want to wait to see what PC1 did.

This works well in real easy simple fights and also tends to work very well at the tail end of a big long lasting fight of attrition.

Callum
June 28th, 2007, 10:14
Do all shopping and char-sheet stuff 'offline' before the game
An excellent suggestion - it's very easy to set up a free messageboard for your group to handle this. The only drawback is not being able to update your "server" character unless you're connected to the DM, but you can still get a lot done this way.


Design just a few *special* combats
Yes - and if you're using (or adapting) a pre-written adventure, it's a good idea to thin out some of the less interesting combat encounters. The lost XP can be recovered as story awards, if necessary.


Preload all maps and images
Definitely - an easy one for DMs to do while the players are yakking about what to do next.


Roll a single initiative for monsters and move them as a group
I always do this - it makes things much easier. I do roll a separate initiative for a leader or elite opponent sometimes, though, particularly if they have a significantly different initiative modifier from the grunts.


Always let players know who's got the current turn
FG2 does this for you, if you're using the combat tracker correctly. The only thing it doesn't do is announce the monsters' turns, which would be a helpful addition. Maybe we should suggest that as a feature request?


Preroll spot and listen checks
I roll these checks for the PCs. It's important that the players don't know when they've missed a check.


Give XP in a batch at the end of the game
Yes - you can use your messageboard to announce XP awards!

One suggestion I would add:

Encourage the players to use the hotkeys for common actions, like spellcasting and combat actions. Also get them involved in writing combat descriptions - good players will have fun describing a critical hit, etc. They can also be typing in a description of their next action while it's someone else's turn, if they have a good idea of what they're going to do.

joshuha
June 28th, 2007, 14:04
FG2 does this for you, if you're using the combat tracker correctly. The only thing it doesn't do is announce the monsters' turns, which would be a helpful addition. Maybe we should suggest that as a feature request?



This is a simple enough change. In the combattracker_entry.lua file look for this:


function setActive(state)
active.setState(state);

if state and charactertype == "pc" then


and just remove the "and charactertype == "pc" bit:



function setActive(state)
active.setState(state);

if state then


There is also a thread floating about where I showed how you can automatically announce the round number as well. We really need a helpful script forum or something.

Dachannien
June 29th, 2007, 02:52
Don't forget, there was a script posted recently that automatically rolls initiative for monsters and NPCs when you add them to the combat tracker. If you know a combat is coming up during the next game session, you can also set up the combat tracker and tokens before the session.

Tropico
July 5th, 2007, 05:32
Yeap Callum, in recent games I've been a player in I've slammed against two extremely important 'speedup/bogdown' factors in the game.

First, learning to use the hotkeys properly and to their fullest potential is critical. In Griogre's game last Saturday he was good enough to point out to me that hotkeys are not only important for speeding up your rolls, but also are key to letting the GM know always exactly what bonuses it is you're rolling (or forgetting to roll). The (label) part in the "+x (label)" format of building the hotkey is critical to keeping the GM updated on just what's going on so he can in turn keep the game flowing correctly.

Second, simply being clear and concrete on the rules you choose to use in your game makes a big difference. I was running a level 8 Rogue with 'Rapid Shot' and 'Many Shot' and I think it rapidly became clear that I have -very little- experience running such a character, to the extent I bogged down the combats during my turn because I didn't have the multiple-shot rules for different situations down and needed them explained to me. To everyone else's credit, they were very patient and helpful with me, yet I was naturally still aware of what I was doing to slow everything down.

Of course, those two things are really up to each player as a person and individually, and you can't really control those factors at all as a GM, you just have to roll with it. So I can't really say how useful it is to be aware of them (but it's gotta be better than being UNaware of them!).

The other thing that pops into my mind is simply choosing a ruleset that is naturally faster and more streamlined for quick resolution of combats and good pacing. Hence my current explorations into Savage Worlds, which shows a lot of promise in that area. Of course the question with such a system is, being the non-popular choice, will I ever get enough players for it? But it's worth a shot at least.

Oh and also, voice DOES speed up everything drastically. It makes me really have a tough choice between the deep immersion offered by 'all-text' (and being used to it from MUDs) and the speed and easy-flow of voice. Tough choices all around :)

NymTevlyn
July 5th, 2007, 08:20
No matter how much people say voice is faster, I won't use it. It's distracting and immersion breaking. I hate talking on the phone too though.

Kalan
July 5th, 2007, 08:38
No matter how much people say voice is faster, I won't use it. It's distracting and immersion breaking. I hate talking on the phone too though.

Ditto here...

Dachannien
July 5th, 2007, 14:38
I guess my feeling on it is that if we weren't using FG, we'd be playing face-to-face (minus some folks who live in other cities/time zones), and we sure wouldn't be typing then ;)

Griogre
July 5th, 2007, 17:37
All I know is that I can probably double the combat encounters per session that is longer than a couple of hours with voice, YMMV. Remember you don't have to let your players use voice.

NymTevlyn
July 5th, 2007, 19:06
Face to face, I can see the person who is talking. Even knowing someone's voice over vent or something isn't enough for me. I also don't want to inflict suffering on my players with my awful voice.

I think the biggest problem with combat bogging down in FG is players alt-tabbing out when it's not their turn or not knowing the rules or planning what they're going to do on their next action.

John_Geeshu
July 5th, 2007, 21:38
I agree that if voice speeds up your combats you must know something about using it that the rest of us don't. I honestly can't see an advantage in combat unless you are playing with newcomers who are unsure of the combat rules, or you are having to correct a lot of mistakes. In that case, yes, voice speeds things up immensely because it's superior to even the fastest typist's skill. Personally, I now favor FGII without voice over traditional F2F table top, so I may be a black sheep on this issue.

joshuha
July 5th, 2007, 21:46
I like voice for combat and for just general banter to keep my logs pretty clean.

We tend to use it to ask all the metagame questions and we have a few players new to 3.5 rules. So our first underwater fight the other day went a bit smoother with voice then it would have if everyone was typing out all the questions.

Even with standard fights, just being able to ask for clarification for certain things like descriptions, obstacles, etc. still speeds it up rather than just typing.

However, we tend to RP pretty heavily so we have had whole sessions where the Ventrilo server is rarely used but its nice to have it there. There's been a few times with even RP that there has been some confusion on who said what or agreed to the plan or what the plan was that voice clears up a bit faster than waiting for everyone to respond in text.

However, I wouldn't probably ever switch to voice for the RP part because I do find that the text combined with moods and emotes leads to a much more immersive RP experience.

NymTevlyn
July 5th, 2007, 21:57
I'd like to have a separate chat log/window that /ooc is sent to.

Griogre
July 6th, 2007, 04:41
I agree that if voice speeds up your combats you must know something about using it that the rest of us don't. I honestly can't see an advantage in combat unless you are playing with newcomers who are unsure of the combat rules, or you are having to correct a lot of mistakes. In that case, yes, voice speeds things up immensely because it's superior to even the fastest typist's skill. Personally, I now favor FGII without voice over traditional F2F table top, so I may be a black sheep on this issue.
Once you get past the lower levels there is always something. I flat find if faster to just say: Roll intiative. First Troll Attacks Albert. Two claws hit going over the tower shild and raking the his back. Bite snaps on the shield, missing. Claws do... [Roll Claw damagae so it can be seen] Rend does... [Roll Rend so it can be seen].

This is a very simple round of a fight but in the time it would have taken me to type that out I cound easily have done another couple player's rounds. It's not just the rules it's all the combat mechanics - special attacks, abilities, tumble skill, the fact I can remind the player they have a flank, giving status of characters and monsters, no AoO because of cover, etc.

My experience is there is usually someone in the group who doesn't know the rules in all situations. I have played in text only games and watched it take 5 or 10 minutes to finally get a rule explained to someone. That kills immersion, too.

I'm not knocking text only games they set a certain pace, a certain mood and depending on you campaign objectives it might be better for you.

NymTevlyn
July 6th, 2007, 12:55
Once you get past the lower levels there is always something. I flat find if faster to just say: Roll intiative. First Troll Attacks Albert. Two claws hit going over the tower shild and raking the his back. Bite snaps on the shield, missing. Claws do... [Roll Claw damagae so it can be seen] Rend does... [Roll Rend so it can be seen].
I keep combat descriptions short and I am a pretty dern quick typist. Voice chat wouldn't help me there.


My experience is there is usually someone in the group who doesn't know the rules in all situations. I have played in text only games and watched it take 5 or 10 minutes to finally get a rule explained to someone. That kills immersion, too.
Either way, voice or text, it's going to take time to explain it to them. If they're that new, you have to expect it. Otherwise make a quick ruling and explain why via whispers in between other stuff or after the game. If it's consistently the same person needing rules explained, tell them to read they either need to read and learn the rules or they won't have a place in the group.

richvalle
July 6th, 2007, 13:27
I keep combat descriptions short and I am a pretty dern quick typist. Voice chat wouldn't help me there.

The 'problem' with typing is that it is tied to the speed of the slowest person. Kinda like an adventuring group trying to escape with a halfling in the group. In platemail. :)

I'm a fair typiest but others in our group were not as fast. So, in combat, just being able to say this happens or that happens or so and so casts a spell takes less time to say then to type. And if anyone has a question things really bog down.

Also, when ever the players are trying to converse about what they are going to do, even in a fight, takes forever. Something that the players could hass out in 5 min will take 15-30 via typing and become a bit of a mess as some players are answering questions that were a few entries back while others are asking new questions and everyone steps on each others toes as they all try to type at the same time.

We tried the 'occ' stuff via voice and in characters stuff via typing but, once the voice was there, it was too easy to just do everything via voice.

Another reason I wanted to use voice is so that my prep time would be smaller. Instead of having to type out all the room descriptions I can just read them out loud. This is a HUGE savings in time on my part. I don't mind doing the work if it is going to be used but a lot of the rooms were passed over by the group and so I did the work for nothing. Forget that! :)

I will say it helps that most of my group are friends in real life so we know each other very well.

rv

NymTevlyn
July 6th, 2007, 22:34
Meh, I won't ever use it. It's just distracting and annoying to me. I type fast enough that I can wing it without prepping a module beforehand and so far I haven't had any issues with players taking forever to work out what they're going to do.

richvalle
July 7th, 2007, 04:33
Yep! To each their own and what works best for them! As long as you and your gamers have fun in your game, thats what counts. Typing, voice, 3.5 Dnd, Savage Worlds, what ever.

I just had a blast this past weekend playing a True20 Gamma World module. I might never play either of those systems again but I had fun doing it!

I found out afterwords one of the players was Monte Cook! Pretty funny.

rv