Rogue effects - especially flat-footed and combat advantage

[Ibrene]

Hi all

I'm trying to "code" my Rogue's sneak attack effects properly in PF1 and I think I'm getting confused...

The PF2 (two) wiki here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/PFRPG2_Effects#Modifiers has a Flat-footed effect and the 3.5E effects: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/3.5E_Effects#Special_Components has a CA (Combat Advantage) that grants Flat-footed. (There seem to be no specific Flat-footed effect in the 3.5E library)

I was always under the impression that with the PF1st Edition, I have to use the 3.5E effects... OR will the effects from the PF2 page be the way to go? I'm writing this from work so can't test atm on my home setup...

SO.. is my thinking correct? If Combat Advantage is the right PF1 effect, I create an effect (Target/Action) CA to apply on my Flatfooted victim. I also create an effect (Target self/all) Sneak-Attack; ATK +2; IFT:CA; DMG 2d6 precision

OR is it better for the PF2 effect Flat-footed (Target/Action) for victim and an effect (Target self/all) Sneak-Attack; ATK +2; IFT:Flat-footed; DMG 2d6 precision

The ATK+2 is from the flanking OR is that already included in the Combat Advantage or Flat-footed condition...?

This is for a campaign in Pathfinder 1st edition.

I also do note that the damage type "precision" is NOT in the 3.5E library, but in the PF2 one... So will I have to delete it from the string?

Any pointers greatly appreciated from all you effect sages

[tahl_liadon]

.
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combat advantage is a dnd (the brand) rule (i believe). as such, there isn't a special/specific effect made for it if you are using pathfinder 1 ruleset.

for pf1: opposing sides confirm that there is a sneak attack event:
attacker get a flanking bonus — which usually applies but not always — then do sneak damage on a hit. that's it.

1) create a spell ("sneak attack") that has 2 separate effects:
Flank; ATK: 2;
Sneak Damage; DMG: 2d6 precision; (or however many 1d6)

2) drop these effects on the attacker in combat tracker

3) on successful hit, do damage and the extra damage will kick in (that damage effect will be ignored if target is immune to precision)

4) at end of turn, manually toggle off the flank/sneak damage effects in combat tracker; reactivate each round when applies
(or give effects 1 rd duration and reapply when needed)

that's the basics of it — there is no other mechanical rule effects outside of this,
i.e. flat-footed is the condition but not to be applied as an effect in this case;
technically, sneak attack applies when "target would be denied a dexterity bonus to ac ... or being flanked"
(rogues at higher level in unchained rules have other effects with successful sneak attack, e.g. debilitating injury, et al).

[Kelrugem]

Hi all

I'm trying to "code" my Rogue's sneak attack effects properly in PF1 and I think I'm getting confused...

The PF2 (two) wiki here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/PFRPG2_Effects#Modifiers has a Flat-footed effect and the 3.5E effects: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/3.5E_Effects#Special_Components has a CA (Combat Advantage) that grants Flat-footed. (There seem to be no specific Flat-footed effect in the 3.5E library)

I was always under the impression that with the PF1st Edition, I have to use the 3.5E effects... OR will the effects from the PF2 page be the way to go? I'm writing this from work so can't test atm on my home setup...

SO.. is my thinking correct? If Combat Advantage is the right PF1 effect, I create an effect (Target/Action) CA to apply on my Flatfooted victim. I also create an effect (Target self/all) Sneak-Attack; ATK +2; IFT:CA; DMG 2d6 precision

OR is it better for the PF2 effect Flat-footed (Target/Action) for victim and an effect (Target self/all) Sneak-Attack; ATK +2; IFT:Flat-footed; DMG 2d6 precision

The ATK+2 is from the flanking OR is that already included in the Combat Advantage or Flat-footed condition...?

This is for a campaign in Pathfinder 1st edition.

I also do note that the damage type "precision" is NOT in the 3.5E library, but in the PF2 one... So will I have to delete it from the string?

Any pointers greatly appreciated from all you effect sages

About damage types: precision is an allowed string, as is critical and spell etc., they're just not listed in the wiki :) (the wiki is a bit incomplete)

There are many possible effects which can lead to that sneak attacks are allowed and there is no way to check this automatically with an IF stuff :) (I have added "nodex" variable to do that in my extension but it does not account CA of attackers) There are simply too many situations where sneak attack could be or not be allowed, extensions offer some automation but there will be probably always an edge case

So, as tahl_liadon says you need to turn on/off that sneak attack as you see fit :)

IFT: flatfooted (or flat-footed) literally will only check whether someone is flatfooted; by the way, I do spontaneously not know whether IFT: CA works (may be IFT: CUSTOM (CA) instead, but since CA is listed as condition, it should work without CUSTOM). However, CA means that the carrier of the effect gets combat advantage (i.e. treats others as flatfooted), so, either IF: CA or IFT: GRANTCA then :) But as mentioned for flatfooted already, this will literally only check whether the actor has CA or the target has GRANTCA, effects like flatfooted causing something similar will not be accounted. So, the effects' system in that regard is very literal (except you use the mentioned "nodex" from an extenion, which is also not complete). Maybe I just add some modifier button somewhen as "sneak attack" or so in an extension, which triggers such effects; such things are major examples for why those buttons are needed :D

[Ibrene]

Hi Kelrugem and thal_liadon, thanks for your replies. Good to know that the Wiki is "incomplete".. ha ha. What extension is it you mention Kelrugem?
Edit: Ahh, I clicked on your tag and found it....

[Kelrugem]

Hi Kelrugem and thal_liadon, thanks for your replies. Good to know that the Wiki is "incomplete".. ha ha. What extension is it you mention Kelrugem?
Edit: Ahh, I clicked on your tag and found it....

yeah, but beware, that I still need some time to update my extensions to the new version of FG :D too many private things going on such that I had no time yet :D

[Ibrene]

Ha ha, Thanks Dr/Dr soon to be Kelrugem... Or will that be Dr (squared)? Anyways, take some time off, relax, bask in the sunshine if you can and recharge. I for one, cant wait to see the dynamic lighting ... My campaign is the Age of Worms one form Dungeon Mag and when we return to it in a few months, the players will enter the Dourstone Mines. I can just envision all the torches I am going to place.. I'm excited.

[Kelrugem]

Ha ha, Thanks Dr/Dr soon to be Kelrugem... Or will that be Dr (squared)? Anyways, take some time off, relax, bask in the sunshine if you can and recharge. I for one, cant wait to see the dynamic lighting ... My campaign is the Age of Worms one form Dungeon Mag and when we return to it in a few months, the players will enter the Dourstone Mines. I can just envision all the torches I am going to place.. I'm excited.

hehe, I try :D

Oh, yes, I am also really excited about dynamic lighting :) I didn't run a game for over 14 months now, and a new start with dynamic lighting sounds nice, as you say, all those torches certainly would add to the athmosphere :)

[dogfisc]

If you're using Kelrugem's extension, these effects kept on the rogue all the time will hit the vast majority of Sneak Attack situations. They will not account for an invisible sneak-attacker against a target that can see invisible, and some other edge cases I'm sure, but for most situations they will work. Adjust the number of dice as appropriate when the rogue's level changes.

Sneak Attack; IFT: nodex; DMG: 2d6 melee,precision
Sneak Attack; IF: Invisible; DMG: 2d6 melee,precision
Sneak Attack; IFT: nodex; IF: CUSTOM(rng30); DMG: 2d6 ranged,precision
Sneak Attack; IF: Invisible; IF: CUSTOM(rng30); DMG: 2d6 ranged,precision
Sneak Attack; IF: CUSTOM(Flanking); DMG: 2d6 melee,precision

The last three require that you (or the player) add an effect called "rng30" if the rogue attacks with a ranged weapon within 30' and "Flanking" if the rogue is flanking their target. These will be applied automatically with this extension (it still needs work to handle exceptions to the flanking rules): https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?66441-Combat-Modifier-Calculation-Extension

The actual text "Sneak Attack; " isn't necessary, and doesn't do anything, but I like to identify what the effect is for.

[Kelrugem]

If you're using Kelrugem's extension, these effects kept on the rogue all the time will hit the vast majority of Sneak Attack situations. They will not account for an invisible sneak-attacker against a target that can see invisible, and some other edge cases I'm sure, but for most situations they will work. Adjust the number of dice as appropriate when the rogue's level changes.

Sneak Attack; IFT: nodex; DMG: 2d6 melee,precision
Sneak Attack; IF: Invisible; DMG: 2d6 melee,precision
Sneak Attack; IFT: nodex; IF: CUSTOM(rng30); DMG: 2d6 ranged,precision
Sneak Attack; IF: Invisible; IF: CUSTOM(rng30); DMG: 2d6 ranged,precision
Sneak Attack; IF: CUSTOM(Flanking); DMG: 2d6 melee,precision

The last three require that you (or the player) add an effect called "rng30" if the rogue attacks with a ranged weapon within 30' and "Flanking" if the rogue is flanking their target. These will be applied automatically with this extension (it still needs work to handle exceptions to the flanking rules): https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?66441-Combat-Modifier-Calculation-Extension

The actual text "Sneak Attack; " isn't necessary, and doesn't do anything, but I like to identify what the effect is for.

additionally, assuming the extension, if you replace invisible effects with NIFT: CUSTOM(true seeing); invisible then the situation with invisible attackers might work, too :) (true seeing as an auxiliary effect for all actors who can see invisible actors) But I am not sure how well the performance will be if there are NIFTs running around, additionally to the IFTs; certainly worth to test first :D

[DCrumb]

Also please note that if a target has GRANTCA, their AC will be reduced by their Dex and any dodge bonus they may have from all attacks (similar that if you have CA, they will be considered to have their Dex and dodge bonuses removed for your attack). This doesn't work for the flanking situation as your target still has dex and dodge, the rogue just gets +2 to attack (for the flank) and can apply precision damage if they hit (so that last IF statement from dogfisc can add ATK: 2 if it isn't a separate effect line). There is already an effect in the effects tab for flat-footed called Flat-footed.

[Ibrene]

Hi DCrumb. That is where i get confused as the WIKI I always refer to: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/3.5E_Effects#Special_Components do not list a Flat-footed effect, BUT when i click on the "Running Man" icon in Unity I do get to pick a Flat-footed effect. Is it just a case of missing Wiki entries, like "precision"? Cheers

[DCrumb]

The Wiki and FAQ don't have that effect listed. I don't currently play 3.5E so I don't know if the Flat-footed effect is listed there.

[Kelrugem]

Rather look at the new wiki :) https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996643237/PFRPG+and+3.5E+Effects

(there is more info, but also no flatfooted :) By the way, it works with and without hyphen) And yes, flanking is something separate to treat, as dogfisc were doing it for example; or the player applies the effect, then they should be able to turn it on/off as they see fit :)

Probably GRANTCA was the first effect for flatfooted until flatfooted itself became an effect, I think

[Ibrene]

Super... Thanks for the tips. I'll update my bookmark now