Frunobulax
February 3rd, 2021, 03:05
I wrote this in response to a comment LordEntrails made in the thread "Why No 3D", but decided it could be its own thread.
Technology development, and that is what we are talking about when talk about adding 3D to a VTT
Well... yes and no. It takes technology to do it, sure. But in this case it's not new technology that needs to be developed. The technology of "getting computers to draw and move around 3D objects" is pretty well completely done. There's essentially no more R&D that needs to be funded, at least not at the level we're discussing. No need to re-invent the wheel - that would be stupid and absurdly expensive. In this case it's not "how do we create this technology?" but rather "which one of the zillion packages and libraries and development environments do we choose?" Smiteworks chose Unity, which was a very, very wise choice. Now it's not "how do we write 3D stuff for FG?" it's more "How do we integrate Unity's 3D stuff with our existing code?" Still not a simple task, I imagine, but way less expensive in time and money than coming up with something new from scratch. It's leveraging technology that's already been developed.
So, if you want 3D in your VTT, then start spending your money accordingly. [...] what is spent for a AAA video game of $60-80 million USD. Yes that is right, one video game spends almost twice as much to develop as the entire RPG tabletop market earns in a year!
All of that is true, but you're looking at two different markets (RPGs and CRPGS [Computer-based RPGS]) and lumping them together. There is the "pen and paper, live, multiperson tabletop roleplaying gamers" who like gaming in groups in person and virtually through VTTs, and then there is the "non-tabletop RPG lovers" who buy Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Divinity, Pillars of Eternity, Baldur's Gate, etc. On the one hand, the whole market for the first group is what you said - minuscule, in the grand scheme of the entertainment industry. Those of us who have been involved since the very beginning in the 80's know that anyone who wants to make a living in the pen-and-paper RPG business is a masochist. There's never been any money in it, at least not if you want to buy a house, eat something other than Ramen and cheese sandwiches, sraise kids, etc. This market now, the computer-based VTT market, is somewhat better, clearly. It supports modest-sized companies like Smitewokrs and (I hope) provides a decent living for a handful of employees.
BUT... what I think you are overlooking is the reason that while the budget for an A-list CRPG can equal the whole size of the pen-and-paper inmdustry is this: how and why can they cost so much? Obviously it's because they make money for the publishers. If they didn't, who would spend that much making one? Which proves that the *RPG market is WAY bigger than the pen-and-paper or even VTT RPG market, that RPG fans are legion, but most of them either don't want to - or, more likely, have never been introduced to - realtime multiplayer RPGs at least not beyond an MMORPG. They haven't experienced it in a small-scale, turn-based setting with other humans, only pre-scripted AI stories. They don't get how fun this style of gaming can be. So, the conclusion I come to is this: if Pathfinder:Kingmaker can support a $60 million budget and make money, that means there's a lot of interest from people who like to sit at desktops and move little figures around, using abilities and spells and combat in a turn-based, small-group environment.
When I ask myself what I find so fun about the games i play on FG, I come to a few personal conclusions. I stopped playing MMORPGS because even though they can be fun, and they have awesome graphics, unless you're in an active guild they aren't very social, and the stories suck. Even in a guild, you just do the same thing over and over again. The world is static and never changes and when you kill some boss monster there is no real effect - it just resets for the next group. Not much fun. There's no depth to the stories, no character development. It's tedious and there is no sense of accomplishment for me. Honestly, which of us ever really bothers to follow the story and lore of an MMORPG? Sure, a few, but most just ignore the plot entirely and just want to Kill ten Rats.
Similarly, while I have loved pen-and-paper RPGs for my whole life, both technology and society have moved along. Thanks to things like FG, we are no longer limited in our gaming to people physically near us. I had to stop playing for a very long time for that reason, and I'm so happy technology has come along and solved that problem with VTTs. Sure, it's possible to imagine dragons and fireballs and spooky places, but it also sure is nice to be able to actually finally see them. Now that we have the ability and the technology, why not?
Call me a dreamer, but I see the continued development and advancement of tools like FG to have the potential to create a whole new market for games, the "small scale, human-GM-run, multiplayer CRPG". People love VTTS, and even though small, the industry is for once starting to grow out of its perceived "only geeks in basements" niche. People obviously are willing to pay $60 for big-budget CRPGs - when they are only ONE story, and that only, what, 80-100 hours of play? To me, Smitework's model of "sell the software at reasonable cost and make money on the DLC" is very smart, and if (theoretically) it could look as good as Pathfinder, and be constantly refreshed with new features, new models and effects, and new adventures, well - that sounds like a winning combination to me! Not just adventures but all kinds of extra digital things. Take a look at how much time and money people spend on purely cosmetic items for their characters in other games - MORPGs, yes, but also even in phone games and so on. Imagine showing up to a VTT game with =your own custome 3D model you bought of your favorite character? Or having one made for your current character with whatever position, equipment, and animations you want? An avatar, essentially. The sky is the limit here.
That's one reason I am so happy that there is a market for paid GMs out there, because - let's face it - a bad GM makes for a bad game, and skilled ones are worth paying. We pay all kinds of other creative people to make art and entertainment fun for us. All these things - detailed 3D VTTs, new content created by people all over the world and sold/licensed through a DLC mechanism, and an environment of both paid and free GMs, could really grow the industry rapidly. There could be a synergy between all the groups that raises the tide for everyone. Developers like Smiteworks handle the technical end and DLC (sharing profits with the creators); the skilled content creators can make new adventures, maps, models, and effects; the GMs can hone their craft and both create new adventures and run existing ones, getting reputation according to their skill; and of course the players can both have a blast and even contribute themselves if they want on a nonprofessional, community basis.
Imagine if you were playing something that looked like Pathfinder:Kingmaker and saw an ad for new content - "New! Adventure in The Jungles of Somewhere! Epic storyline, a new race with all new models for monsters and NPCs, new spell and ability effects! Now being run by leading GMs around the world! Why play WoW and kill the same boss for the hundredth time when you can make your own adventure with your friends? Buy now!"
Because, in the end, what is most valuable is new content. This way the VRPG (Virtual Roleplaying Game) market can have something no other entertainment medium can have - FRESH, NEW content every time, created by you in conjunction with your GM and other players. Each runthrough is a new story, unique to the people who are running it. It's NOT same-old, same-old like MMORPGs are. And fresh content is really where it's all at. With a real symbiotic ecosystem, creators could make a little more money (I still don't think anyone would retire to a private island LOL) and players can have a blast.
OK, so... wow, that got WAY longer than I intended. Guess I was on a roll. Sorry. But there was a lot to say. Please don't bother responding if you are just going to say how hard it all would be etc. I'm well aware that this is all castles in the air, daydreaming, whatever you want to call it. I know there would be hurdles. But as a general direction and goal, I think it's quite possible over time if everyone works together.
Technology development, and that is what we are talking about when talk about adding 3D to a VTT
Well... yes and no. It takes technology to do it, sure. But in this case it's not new technology that needs to be developed. The technology of "getting computers to draw and move around 3D objects" is pretty well completely done. There's essentially no more R&D that needs to be funded, at least not at the level we're discussing. No need to re-invent the wheel - that would be stupid and absurdly expensive. In this case it's not "how do we create this technology?" but rather "which one of the zillion packages and libraries and development environments do we choose?" Smiteworks chose Unity, which was a very, very wise choice. Now it's not "how do we write 3D stuff for FG?" it's more "How do we integrate Unity's 3D stuff with our existing code?" Still not a simple task, I imagine, but way less expensive in time and money than coming up with something new from scratch. It's leveraging technology that's already been developed.
So, if you want 3D in your VTT, then start spending your money accordingly. [...] what is spent for a AAA video game of $60-80 million USD. Yes that is right, one video game spends almost twice as much to develop as the entire RPG tabletop market earns in a year!
All of that is true, but you're looking at two different markets (RPGs and CRPGS [Computer-based RPGS]) and lumping them together. There is the "pen and paper, live, multiperson tabletop roleplaying gamers" who like gaming in groups in person and virtually through VTTs, and then there is the "non-tabletop RPG lovers" who buy Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Divinity, Pillars of Eternity, Baldur's Gate, etc. On the one hand, the whole market for the first group is what you said - minuscule, in the grand scheme of the entertainment industry. Those of us who have been involved since the very beginning in the 80's know that anyone who wants to make a living in the pen-and-paper RPG business is a masochist. There's never been any money in it, at least not if you want to buy a house, eat something other than Ramen and cheese sandwiches, sraise kids, etc. This market now, the computer-based VTT market, is somewhat better, clearly. It supports modest-sized companies like Smitewokrs and (I hope) provides a decent living for a handful of employees.
BUT... what I think you are overlooking is the reason that while the budget for an A-list CRPG can equal the whole size of the pen-and-paper inmdustry is this: how and why can they cost so much? Obviously it's because they make money for the publishers. If they didn't, who would spend that much making one? Which proves that the *RPG market is WAY bigger than the pen-and-paper or even VTT RPG market, that RPG fans are legion, but most of them either don't want to - or, more likely, have never been introduced to - realtime multiplayer RPGs at least not beyond an MMORPG. They haven't experienced it in a small-scale, turn-based setting with other humans, only pre-scripted AI stories. They don't get how fun this style of gaming can be. So, the conclusion I come to is this: if Pathfinder:Kingmaker can support a $60 million budget and make money, that means there's a lot of interest from people who like to sit at desktops and move little figures around, using abilities and spells and combat in a turn-based, small-group environment.
When I ask myself what I find so fun about the games i play on FG, I come to a few personal conclusions. I stopped playing MMORPGS because even though they can be fun, and they have awesome graphics, unless you're in an active guild they aren't very social, and the stories suck. Even in a guild, you just do the same thing over and over again. The world is static and never changes and when you kill some boss monster there is no real effect - it just resets for the next group. Not much fun. There's no depth to the stories, no character development. It's tedious and there is no sense of accomplishment for me. Honestly, which of us ever really bothers to follow the story and lore of an MMORPG? Sure, a few, but most just ignore the plot entirely and just want to Kill ten Rats.
Similarly, while I have loved pen-and-paper RPGs for my whole life, both technology and society have moved along. Thanks to things like FG, we are no longer limited in our gaming to people physically near us. I had to stop playing for a very long time for that reason, and I'm so happy technology has come along and solved that problem with VTTs. Sure, it's possible to imagine dragons and fireballs and spooky places, but it also sure is nice to be able to actually finally see them. Now that we have the ability and the technology, why not?
Call me a dreamer, but I see the continued development and advancement of tools like FG to have the potential to create a whole new market for games, the "small scale, human-GM-run, multiplayer CRPG". People love VTTS, and even though small, the industry is for once starting to grow out of its perceived "only geeks in basements" niche. People obviously are willing to pay $60 for big-budget CRPGs - when they are only ONE story, and that only, what, 80-100 hours of play? To me, Smitework's model of "sell the software at reasonable cost and make money on the DLC" is very smart, and if (theoretically) it could look as good as Pathfinder, and be constantly refreshed with new features, new models and effects, and new adventures, well - that sounds like a winning combination to me! Not just adventures but all kinds of extra digital things. Take a look at how much time and money people spend on purely cosmetic items for their characters in other games - MORPGs, yes, but also even in phone games and so on. Imagine showing up to a VTT game with =your own custome 3D model you bought of your favorite character? Or having one made for your current character with whatever position, equipment, and animations you want? An avatar, essentially. The sky is the limit here.
That's one reason I am so happy that there is a market for paid GMs out there, because - let's face it - a bad GM makes for a bad game, and skilled ones are worth paying. We pay all kinds of other creative people to make art and entertainment fun for us. All these things - detailed 3D VTTs, new content created by people all over the world and sold/licensed through a DLC mechanism, and an environment of both paid and free GMs, could really grow the industry rapidly. There could be a synergy between all the groups that raises the tide for everyone. Developers like Smiteworks handle the technical end and DLC (sharing profits with the creators); the skilled content creators can make new adventures, maps, models, and effects; the GMs can hone their craft and both create new adventures and run existing ones, getting reputation according to their skill; and of course the players can both have a blast and even contribute themselves if they want on a nonprofessional, community basis.
Imagine if you were playing something that looked like Pathfinder:Kingmaker and saw an ad for new content - "New! Adventure in The Jungles of Somewhere! Epic storyline, a new race with all new models for monsters and NPCs, new spell and ability effects! Now being run by leading GMs around the world! Why play WoW and kill the same boss for the hundredth time when you can make your own adventure with your friends? Buy now!"
Because, in the end, what is most valuable is new content. This way the VRPG (Virtual Roleplaying Game) market can have something no other entertainment medium can have - FRESH, NEW content every time, created by you in conjunction with your GM and other players. Each runthrough is a new story, unique to the people who are running it. It's NOT same-old, same-old like MMORPGs are. And fresh content is really where it's all at. With a real symbiotic ecosystem, creators could make a little more money (I still don't think anyone would retire to a private island LOL) and players can have a blast.
OK, so... wow, that got WAY longer than I intended. Guess I was on a roll. Sorry. But there was a lot to say. Please don't bother responding if you are just going to say how hard it all would be etc. I'm well aware that this is all castles in the air, daydreaming, whatever you want to call it. I know there would be hurdles. But as a general direction and goal, I think it's quite possible over time if everyone works together.