A silly question....

[geewaagh]

Okay, so I understand the whole rule set copyright thing. But here is my question:

Why can't we post character sheets of various games since most give permission to make copies of charactersheets and most game company sites have communities that make variant excel and PDF versions of the charcatersheet.

You would think that NO ONE would have an issue with encourgement to buy and play their games.

The biggest issue with FG, IMO, is that many people want to play different games but dont want to tackle a "ruleset".

Any thoughts?

[Griogre]

This has been talked about before. Probably making character sheet only rulesets would be alright with most game companies. Someone does still have to ask to be safe and then, of course, make one.

The default Character sheets have gotten quite a bit more complex but as people become more familiar with how they work you may see more of them.

[Illrigger]

Indeed. No one has threatened to sue Ema or Mad Irishman for their character sheet sites, even though they clearly violate copyrights and the OGL - and it's plain from what MI has said in the past that WotC does indeed know of their existance. We'll never know why for sure, but it's been assumed that play aids that don't give enough info to allow a person to bypass buying the books are given a "pass" by the lawyers.

In other words, if you've got the guts to try and make a site to host character sheets for FG and/or other VGTs, you may or may not get a C&D letter. Nobody knows for sure.

[NymTevlyn]

I think the issue would be if they tried to sell the character sheets. Distributing them for free doesn't harm anyone.

[Valarian]

I think that, mostly, games companies are just wanting to protect their copyright. If you include a copyright notice at the bottom of the character sheet, I can't see there being much of an issue. I think that Griorgre is right in that, to be safe, you should ask the copyright holder before distributing. I'd say, create the character sheet - then ask for permission to distribute it.

[Oberoten]

I am thinking some kind of MOTD that'd pop up when you connect/start the ruleset would be a nice addition just for the copyright issues. A small note telling about copyrights etc.

[Griogre]

Copyright notices should definately be on the sheets if you reproduce the "official" one and maybe the address of the "offical" site. Character sheets are often viewed as promo material which is why game companies go easy on C&D's. Their only concern is to legally protect their copywrites. Character Sheets with a reproduction is ok for personal use *should* be perfect for conversion to FG.

I don't know if you need a pop up but the copywrite notice as the first line of the "Notes" section should be fine. You want clearly legable. It would be better on the first tab page at the bottom though.

[Dachannien]

Note that copyright notices don't magically make something legal. It's sort of like saying, "Look, we aren't claiming ownership of the material, but we also think we have a legitimate right to use it this way."

Does anybody know whether a character record sheet is considered to be transformative or derivative of the underlying rules? I personally think WotC oversteps their bounds with the restrictions they place in the OGL, and making your own CRS (as long as you're not just copying their CRS) is a transformative use of their rules, which puts you in the realm of fair use (although someone selling CRSes might take pause, which is why SmiteWorks is very careful not to color outside the lines of the OGL with the default ruleset). However, I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong.

[Griogre]

Yeah the copyright notices don't make it legal but it will impress the guy you are trying to get permission from. It is the first thing they will tell you put on the form if they give permisson and they might have some other words too - like the fan web kits for games.

On the legal front, I'm not a lawyer - but if you really wanted to go to court many charcter sheets without art or logos are probably not copy writeable. Most normal people don't want to go to court to find out and neither do the game companies - they just want to make games and have a chance of making enough money to make the next game. :p

[Illrigger]

Historically, you're better NOT asking for permission on this subject. If you ask, they HAVE to bring the lawyers in, and you most likey WILL get a C&D. If you don't ask but play nice (include minimal info and a shout out to the copyright holder - see Ema's site for a good example), they can "let you slide" a lot more easily. Put simply, if they can plausibly deny knowing about you, they can let you go, if you force the issue, they can't.

In any case, the worst thing that will happen to you for doing a sane release like this is you get a C&D notice. If you get one, and take down the material, that will be the end of it, so the personal risk is limited.

[geewaagh]

My general take on the matter is that "free to copy for personal use" is pretty open as long as no profit is made, credit is given, and no loss of profit from the copyright holder can occour.

That being said, now I am wonder if a ruleset "lite" website would have any intrest.

The site would have "No Rules" rule sets which could be defined as character sheets, combat tracker, etc. purely community created and regulated.

What would be the intrest in this?

[Illrigger]

I certainly would. At the very least, having a ruleset with a base character sheet and graphics would be a good base to develop full datasets from, and that's a very useful thing.