How important to Community is a SmiteWorks store app to do Extensions?

[SilentRuin]

Let me give some history on why I ask this of the community first. As some of you know about 3 weeks ago I had an extension deactivated in DMsG (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?64106-Just-got-a-mail-from-DMsG-telling-me-they-are-pulling-all-extensions-for-sale-out) and put in a state of limbo after about 5 sales and 15 minutes. Within that thread it was mentioned by SmiteWorks (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?64106-Just-got-a-mail-from-DMsG-telling-me-they-are-pulling-all-extensions-for-sale-out&p=561106&viewfull=1#post561106) that they were working on an store app that would allow support of .ext files (extensions/code).

My question to the community is - how important would having this be to you?

I always tell people that EXTENSIONS = RISK and this is 100% absolutely true. People can break FG code with an extension. FG changes can break an extension. Other extensions can (and will inevitably) conflict with other extensions - though this can be minimized with careful implementation.

Yet, given all that RISK, extensions are a vital part of the community. I am a firm believer that you should try to use RAW FG code before you try any extension. Then, if during that adventure, you find you need something to make things easier to manage the game - write an extension for yourself. If you cannot, or do not want to do this, then search for a free extension in the forums that fulfills that need. And only if you you can't resolve your need still, search for a paid extension.

People may ask why any extension is "paid for" as they should all be free. That's a valid point of view. I maintain a free one for the community in fact. But I know how much work that is. And I know how much work making an extension can be (350 hours for one of mine). I make my extensions for myself. And put them in DMsG for others if they feel they are worth paying for. And why is it paid? Because it's my choice to do so and I like seeing if someone considers it worth while.

But regardless of where you fall in the great philosophical debate of "paid" or "free" - this post is to gauge the communities interest in getting SmiteWorks to get the previously mentioned application (see link above) out there.

I'm obviously prejudiced in my opinion of wanting it as I wait in limbo with one of my extensions - trapped in "between" the powers that be in resolving its fate - so you should not really count my opinion. Give yours. And why. Pro or con is all fine.

[MrDDT]

I think SW should make major efforts to getting exts up on their new site to sell and update exts. This is such a hassle with exts and figuring out what the DMGSguild is doing.

I want SW to set up that app store very bad.
To me this is more important than even the light radius they are working on (which is crazy awesome).

[LordEntrails]

On a scale of 1 (least) to 5 (critical) I value it;
1 for me personally. I use very few extensions. I have no problem keeping them updated as I need them or even knowing most of what's available (because I am so active on the forums).
3 for the community. Because most people are not so diligent keeping their extensions updated or even that they need to keep them updated, knowing what's available etc. It also will help reduce the number of posts on the forums and may provide an incentive for some people to use FG over other VTTs.

[Imagix]

On that scale, it's a 1 for me as well. I use 1 extension during play (the one that records item attunements for 5E), and 1 more when building a module. But I can see the usefulness for the people who run more extensions. Though I think lighting is more important than extensions. YMMV

[mattekure]

It will depend on how its implemented for me.

On that scale, I think its a 3-4 for me. As an extension author, I would certainly put any of my extensions posted here on the FG forums into the system so users can get the auto download, and I use a wide variety of extensions, so having at least some of them auto-update would be handy. But I dont generally have issues with keeping them up to date.

I would have to see what the tradeoffs were before posting any extensions for sale.

[Larsenex]

I value extensions. I would rate a SW store front for extensions/apps as a 4.
I am capable of making my own but would rather support SW.

[ddavison]

We have one of our Sr Devs working on it full-time. He is making good progress but it is not likely to be ready for a reveal until January.

[ssides]

I use some extensions, but I have no problem updating them from the forums or whatever. I'd rate an extension store at 1 or 2, I guess.

[SilentRuin]

We have one of our Sr Devs working on it full-time. He is making good progress but it is not likely to be ready for a reveal until January.

What is a "reveal" by the way?

I'll use this as a rough time frame to people who keep asking me when they can get the extension then. I seem to be the only one caught out by all this - which sort of sucks. But such is life.

[pablomaz]

Extensions are critical for me and I gladly paid for some of them. Building a marketplace for Extensions is critical, specially if DMs Guild isn't worried on equal treatment of developers.

[Dr0W]

As an Idea, and I've seen people doing this on another plaform is not only setting up a platform for donations, but I've seen some people going for Patreons to sell extensions on another VTT. And I'll be honest with you, I completely agree with people being able to sell their code within a platform, but I noticed that not only me but many people prefer not to feel enforced to pay, so we just spend the most when something is given for free first. I've spent way more money on games that are free than paid ones in my life. There are some developers here that have done so much for the community that I always feel like buying them a coffee.

[Fear Grounds]

I personally only use a couple of extensions, and they mainly just change the look of Fantasy Grounds. That being said, there are some crazy good extensions available here in the forums, and this will be a great way of letting others find them quicker/easier.

[Shady Allie]

This community member thinks it is a great idea. Hopefully when implemented any previously bought dmg's ext will carry over without a second purchase. :-)

[Moon Wizard]

A reveal most likely means Doug leaking pics like he did for the lighting we're working on. I will confirm that we have one of our developers working on this almost full-time.

To start with, we will most likely only be supporting "free" extensions. The idea is that we will work all the kinks in providing a UI for users to manage their community forge "subscriptions", as well as the infrastructure in the updater to deliver all those subscriptions. Once we have that under control, we plan to move forward with a monetization system to allow community content authors to sell content access; as well as accept donations (and maybe even patronage subscriptions eventually).

Regards,
JPG

[SilentRuin]

A reveal most likely means Doug leaking pics like he did for the lighting we're working on. I will confirm that we have one of our developers working on this almost full-time.

To start with, we will most likely only be supporting "free" extensions. The idea is that we will work all the kinks in providing a UI for users to manage their community forge "subscriptions", as well as the infrastructure in the updater to deliver all those subscriptions. Once we have that under control, we plan to move forward with a monetization system to allow community content authors to sell content access; as well as accept donations (and maybe even patronage subscriptions eventually).

Regards,
JPG

Sounds like I'll be in limbo a lot longer than January then. Thanks for the clarification - I appreciate it.

[Moon Wizard]

We're working as fast as we can; but we can't afford to put more than one senior developer on it with the size of our company and the fact that we're also working on vision/lighting in tandem.

Regards,
JPG

[SilentRuin]

We're working as fast as we can; but we can't afford to put more than one senior developer on it with the size of our company and the fact that we're also working on vision/lighting in tandem.

Regards,
JPG

I completely understand. Just my fate that DMsG wants me to move to DTRPG and SW does not. So stuck waiting for this on the sidelines. Don't get me wrong - I do understand. Just no fun being caught "in between" that rock and a hard place :)

[Moon Wizard]

Yeah, we heard some rumblings about this situation about a week before it happened; and had just started talking about moving priorities to address. We were a little shocked that the trigger was pulled so fast; so we've been trying to focus on re-prioritizing to get a solution,

Since the user subscription and the update system is a requirement to do the rest, that makes a good phase 1 release.

Regards,
JPG

[Zacchaeus]

A reveal most likely means Doug leaking pics like he did for the lighting we're working on.
Regards,
JPG
This is priceless ;)

[JohnQPublic]

I don't care where they are, I just want them to auto-update.

[SilentRuin]

I don't care where they are, I just want them to auto-update.

Auto-update could turn into auto-break for extensions. Again - EXTENSIONS = RISK - and auto killing my app on game day with no easy way back would not be a good thing. Some extensions will NEVER be compatible I'm sure. And how would you know if FG changes or extension changes broke something?

Auto-update scares the living crap out of me when it comes to extensions. IMHO

[DevildrummerX]

Auto-update could turn into auto-break for extensions. Again - EXTENSIONS = RISK - and auto killing my app on game day with no easy way back would not be a good thing. Some extensions will NEVER be compatible I'm sure. And how would you know if FG changes or extension changes broke something?

Auto-update scares the living crap out of me when it comes to extensions. IMHO

I agree auto-update sounds great on the surface but in reality would probably be a nightmare. The only way I can envision it working is if all extension updates were disabled when FGU updates until either the developer or someone working for SW approved them to work with the new version. But even in that instance you would either have to rely on the word of the creator, or SW would have to dedicate a resource to testing extensions to ensure they are compatible with every FGU update. I don't think that would be a headache worth causing.

[SilentRuin]

I agree auto-update sounds great on the surface but in reality would probably be a nightmare. The only way I can envision it working is if all extension updates were disabled when FGU updates until either the developer or someone working for SW approved them to work with the new version. But even in that instance you would either have to rely on the word of the creator, or SW would have to dedicate a resource to testing extensions to ensure they are compatible with every FGU update. I don't think that would be a headache worth causing.

KISS rule. Extensions should only be updatable by user approving them. No way SW should be trapped into validating them. That would be insane given the nature of extensions. If your happy with version using should be able to keep it. In no way shape or form should the decision and acceptance of RISK be automated out of end users hands. Much like now except you can see an extension has a new version.

[DevildrummerX]

KISS rule. Extensions should only be updatable by user approving them. No way SW should be trapped into validating them. That would be insane given the nature of extensions. If your happy with version using should be able to keep it. In no way shape or form should the decision and acceptance of RISK be automated out of end users hands. Much like now except you can see an extension has a new version.

Yes, I agree this would be the best approach. Alert us in the updater that certain extensions have received updates and allow us to choose which if any we want to update.

[LordEntrails]

KISS rule. Extensions should only be updatable by user approving them. No way SW should be trapped into validating them. That would be insane given the nature of extensions. If your happy with version using should be able to keep it. In no way shape or form should the decision and acceptance of RISK be automated out of end users hands. Much like now except you can see an extension has a new version.
Agreed.

[Weissrolf]

2 and option to update single extensions on their own plus a single button to update all. No auto-update before clicking any buttons. Maybe add an option to auto-update. This would all be similar to how addons on CurseForge are handles (WoW etc).

[HywelPhillips]

I use a bunch of 5E extensions and it would be nice to get them in one place and have a streamlined notification and update procedure.

I agree with others that auto-updates are not such a good idea for extensions because they can break your game MUCH more easily than anything else. But still, knowing that the latest version is out and updateable would be useful for me.

Validation of extensions so they DON'T break would of course be much more valuable, but I strongly suspect outside the scope of what SW can provide or what extension authors could put up with.

Cheers, Hywel Phillips

[SilentRuin]

I use a bunch of 5E extensions and it would be nice to get them in one place and have a streamlined notification and update procedure.

I agree with others that auto-updates are not such a good idea for extensions because they can break your game MUCH more easily than anything else. But still, knowing that the latest version is out and updateable would be useful for me.

Validation of extensions so they DON'T break would of course be much more valuable, but I strongly suspect outside the scope of what SW can provide or what extension authors could put up with.

Cheers, Hywel Phillips

Extension developers should ALWAYS be responsible for making sure it works with FGU. But I agree making sure they work with OTHER extensions - is problematic. Personally I'll make the attempt if the other developer is willing to get with me - but short of that - not much one can do if they are stomping on shared code (not calling the older version before they do what they need to do - which is not always possible). But for sure extension developers need to keep pace with FGU updates and insure it works. Or I'd recommend that SW flag them as incompatible or something (because users notified them of it).

[WindrunnerCGG]

This is really the only thing you can do at this time. Ahhh the trials and tribulations of forked community development. :)

Windrunner

[DGM]

Within that thread it was mentioned by SmiteWorks that they were working on an store app that would allow support of .ext files (extensions/code).

My question to the community is - how important would having this be to you?

5 out of 5, it is very important for me to use extensions with Fantasy Grounds

I don’t care where or how but for the power users with larger player base its near essential.

Fantasy Grounds is missing features that other platforms have, some (not all) of these features are made available through extensions and there are Extensions features that are made by community members that should be built in after you used it.

[HywelPhillips]

P.S. since extensions are usually small, it's worth keeping previous versions in a depreciated folder or something. I do that by hand right now.

It would be useful if the automated tool did it too - so if something breaks you can go back to the previous version fairly trivially. The tool can automate it - keep the last "N" versions of the file, renaming to "filename_version_minus_1" or whatever. I've never actually had to roll back to a previous version, but it's pretty painless for an automated tool to facilitate it should it be necessary.

Cheers, Hywel

[SilentRuin]

Well in the interest of full disclosure - I've received the following message from DMsG:


Wizards of the Coast has clarified for us the kinds of Fantasy Grounds files it approves for DMsGuild. The file type itself is not a concern, but the function of the extension could potentially be in breach of the community content guidelines.

We now have the following guidelines:

If the extension combines content supplemental to a product specifically designed for use with Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition rules and/or uses Wizards of the Coast IP that is licensed for use on DMsGuild, then it is approved to stay on our platform.

If an extension is a general update or alteration to the Fantasy Grounds platform itself, then it will be removed from sale on Dungeon Masters Guild.

With the above in mind, unfortunately, we have found that the following titles of yours must be removed from DMsGuild.

Combat Groups Extension (Fantasy Grounds Unity)
Generic Actions Extension (Fantasy Grounds Unity)
Equipped Effects Extension (Fantasy Grounds Unity)
Map Parcel Extension (Fantasy Grounds Unity)

Ideally, we can help transition these files over to a new location on our DriveThruRPG sister site. We have sent a list of all titles removed from DMsGuild directly to Fantasy Grounds for their consideration; assuming they approve, we can then move your product over to DriveThruRPG and reactivate it for sale there.

They will be in contact with you should they decide to allow your product.



I'm pretty sure SW has answered the DTRPG question here - but I suppose I will get a reverification soon.

[ddavison]

We just received the note from DMsGuild today with a list of all the extensions that would be affected. It affects 8 community content creators and 36 extensions.

I asked when they needed to be removed and asked if it was possible to delay the removal until the start of the new year at the earliest. I got a quick response back that they were already deactivated from sale but were still available to customers who purchased them. They were going to investigate whether or not they could be turned back on to allow for sales until a later date.

We (SmiteWorks) are working on building out a new system that allows these to be housed and sold. This is the FG Forge. Steven is still working on building this. He has made good progress but is not ready for it yet to be deployed. If we decide to do something different, such as allowing these to be sold on DTRPG, then we will contact those developers directly to discuss their options. Any new extensions would need to wait until the FG Forge is up and running before they could be sold. Distribution of free extensions on the forums is still allowed.

[SilentRuin]

We just received the note from DMsGuild today with a list of all the extensions that would be affected. It affects 8 community content creators and 36 extensions.

I asked when they needed to be removed and asked if it was possible to delay the removal until the start of the new year at the earliest. I got a quick response back that they were already deactivated from sale but were still available to customers who purchased them. They were going to investigate whether or not they could be turned back on to allow for sales until a later date.

We (SmiteWorks) is working on building out a new system that allows these to be housed and sold. This is the FG Forge. Steven is still working on building this. He has made good progress but is not ready for it yet to be deployed. If we decide to do something different, such as allowing these to be sold on DTRPG, then we will contact those developers directly to discuss their options. Any new extensions would need to wait until the FG Forge is up and running before they could be sold. Distribution of free extensions on the forums is still allowed.

Thanks for quick reply. Will wait to see where the stuff can go and when - as I do this as a hobby and not to make a living - I'm probably not effected as much as the others. Just the messenger - don't shoot me :)

[mattekure]

Thanks for the info. I was one of them that had most of mine pulled. only 3 of mine are still remaining and I truly do not understand their logic for what got pulled and what was allowed to stay.

[SilentRuin]

Thanks for the info. I was one of them that had most of mine pulled. only 3 of mine are still remaining and I truly do not understand their logic for what got pulled and what was allowed to stay.

I had one of mine left - but I'm asking now if that was an oversight or it really was valid. Personally I want them to all go to the same place - whereever that may be - as a group. I only plan on existing at one spot - preferably SW site. But it's not clear on what stopgap will be in place till then - if any - as it depends on multiple parties. Also, glad to hear it was not just me :) Not that I'm happy it happened to you :(

[mattekure]

Yeah, it happened to all of us that published with Team Twohy. It just took a little bit I guess for them to review. I would expect more rounds of cuts. the 3 they left of mine dont make much sense, but I am not about to start questioning. Like the rest of us, its just a waiting game until a viable alternative comes along.

[SilentRuin]

Guess I need to update everything but polymorphism to "The sales for this product in DMsG may soon be deactivated per this post - will let you know when that happens and when it finds a new home. (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?64473-How-important-to-Community-is-a-SmiteWorks-store-app-to-do-Extensions&p=565817#post565817)"
And I verified with Jack at DMsG that for whatever reason, Polymorphism is still allowed in DMsG. So its still up.

[similarly]

As I understand it, if it is connected to D&D (i.e. a spell like polymorph) they can justify it. However, if they feel it is not related to D&D, they may have to remove it. It's possible, I think, that a case could be argued on some of the extensions they want to remove. If it really is connected to D&D 5e, it should be allowed to stay. One possible solution is to rework some of the extensions and modules so that they ARE compliant in their relation to D&D, even if they have options that allow it to be used outside of D&D. Am I making sense? Not sure.

[SilentRuin]

As I understand it, if it is connected to D&D (i.e. a spell like polymorph) they can justify it. However, if they feel it is not related to D&D, they may have to remove it. It's possible, I think, that a case could be argued on some of the extensions they want to remove. If it really is connected to D&D 5e, it should be allowed to stay. One possible solution is to rework some of the extensions and modules so that they ARE compliant in their relation to D&D, even if they have options that allow it to be used outside of D&D. Am I making sense? Not sure.

It's highly subjective and basically it's there call. I can see why combat groups, equipped effects, and map parcel are considered more code support for FGU than purely 5E - but have asked why generic actions was included in that list (as its purely buttons in support of specific PHB 5E page numbers - actions).

Gist is - I'm sure you can try and trick your way into making these extensions look more tied to 5E (even though all mine were written to support my own games and I only play 5E), but its a game I'm not willing to play.

Equipped Effects and Map Parcel both support more rulesets than 5E and combat groups could support more than 5E with a few specific .xml additions for the other rulesets - which someday I might want to do. So those are for sure fair game to axe.

[bratch9]

Just joining the group chat, had one of my 6 extensions on dmsguild flagged. For now I've reduced it to 5E ruleset only in a hope to keep it as alive as possible.. But I think most extensions need a new home, and glad FG Forge, as some point, might be it.

I hope we can get some 'account' action going between the 2 sides to allow owners from dmsguild to move them into FG Forge account, maybe with the oath token/api they use for the download application etc..

For me some suggestions,

1. Better use of the min/maxrelease in extensions to work with the rulesets.. ( Issue is I see updates to rulesets that dont change the release version and also dont even change the version string number, but do change the code which might cause a conflict issue. )
2. the ability to have multiple versions of rulesets active on a machine.. ( Say a campaign specific version tag for ruleset/extensions etc... so a big campaign might be waiting for an extension update and needs to stay on the old ruleset/extension(s) code, until everything can be updated... while a different campaign might be valid to update as all its extensions have updated or even maybe the campaign just does not need updating as its working fine with the current versions in use etc... )
3. Some way to 'select' versions of ruleset so as a developer I can check extension against these versions, and hence update the information in the extension to 'say works with etc..' in the min/max release/version of ruleset.
4. some way to use the 'range' of ruleset supported by the extension, and all extensions, to generate the best/range of ruleset versions that this combination of extensions would require.
5. some way to 'request' changes into rulesets that break larger functions into smaller sections/add access point(s), to try and hope resolve conflicts between extensions that have to make a small change in these functions that conflicts with the small change in the function from another extension..
6. some way to 'message' between extension developers, to 'coordinate' conflicts, that does not need to go into 'general' issues/chat from users are having.

While I'm sure we all will have feedback when the first 'free extension' version for FG Forge goes live, I'd like to see the 'paid' version come on line quickly to resolve the issues.. As I'm sure most developers of paid extensions do not want to move these to a free host and loose income. ( Minor issue for me, but I'm sure some developers make a reasonable living etc.. )

I do think getting some idea of when 'free extensions' hosting will be available and when 'paid extensions' hosting will be available.. ( As I'd like to see this issue getting resolved in months, and not in years... )

-pete

[arkanis]

I hope this gets sorted out soon. Extensions are very important for me, like 5 on a 1-5 scale.
I think they hit the right spot, because a lot are made by DMs and that means they know the weak spots and try to fix them.
The main problem with RPGs will always be the assymetry in workload between players and DM's and everything that eases the workload of the DM is worth it.

[maugrim8866]

I hope this gets sorted out soon. Extensions are very important for me, like 5 on a 1-5 scale.
I think they hit the right spot, because a lot are made by DMs and that means they know the weak spots and try to fix them.
The main problem with RPGs will always be the assymetry in workload between players and DM's and everything that eases the workload of the DM is worth it.

Agree 100% with arkanis comments.

[SilentRuin]

Ugh. Now I have TWO extensions waiting for something to be resolved per this thread. Sometimes I think I'm the only one effected by all this. Both combat groups and now Assistant GM are in limbo :(

May as well post a screen shot of what at least I have for my campaigns - to show I am doing stuff even though in limbo (besides fixing stuff still out there)

[Zarestia]

Half of my bought extensions are currently in the archive on dmsguild (and their website is slow as hell like always). You're not the only one affected creator :)
I think we can probably see somehting soonish, most holidays are over now :D

[DGM]

Most folks are checking out others systems like Foundry VTT or varius others.

FG is great with automation but lagging behind in many other fronts.

The extensions made the 5e FG experience and better then other platforms, a platform which the community has confidence in to get extension and keep it is very important.

[A Social Yeti]

I find the extensions /modding situation is no different for this app than for video games.

If, without mods the app can do what its base sold as functionality is. And we can run mods to change that up as we see fit, this is really nice to get.
But it is key to note that the game on its own with no mods ought to be stand alone worthy of the cost as is.


So double edge sword that says, buyer beware.

A game/app designed and meant to be modded can be a great thing for end users to get way way more functionality/play time out of it than it shipped to be.
So mod-ability is not an automatic bad thing to have.

HOWEVER as a consumer in the market i cannot turn a blind eye to the situation that modding steps in to fill very real development gaps that were just left out or half done, knowing full well modding community labor is free, BUT does add value to help sell product.


So i am always a little hesitant, and will not move quickly on anything touting mod-ability too much, as that is the signal to me that i'd have good odds of buying a half done product and hoping the end users freely finish it up for me.


Also on mods, i do understand the value of labor time and know how. But i cannot find it a good situation to have both modability and moders profitability expected in that too.
paying for the base product and then potentially having to pay for the mods that sometimes just are the rest of the work to be done, gets into some deep weeds i find is best just never gotten into in the first place.

Mod for the love it, mod privately for yourself, mod because it's good skill practice and can go on your resume, but no i can't get behind the idea of a paid for product designed so as to also be a profit platform for moders.

[Jiminimonka]

I find the extensions /modding situation is no different for this app than for video games.

If, without mods the app can do what its base sold as functionality is. And we can run mods to change that up as we see fit, this is really nice to get.
But it is key to note that the game on its own with no mods ought to be stand alone worthy of the cost as is.


So double edge sword that says, buyer beware.

A game/app designed and meant to be modded can be a great thing for end users to get way way more functionality/play time out of it than it shipped to be.
So mod-ability is not an automatic bad thing to have.

HOWEVER as a consumer in the market i cannot turn a blind eye to the situation that modding steps in to fill very real development gaps that were just left out or half done, knowing full well modding community labor is free, BUT does add value to help sell product.


So i am always a little hesitant, and will not move quickly on anything touting mod-ability too much, as that is the signal to me that i'd have good odds of buying a half done product and hoping the end users freely finish it up for me.


Also on mods, i do understand the value of labor time and know how. But i cannot find it a good situation to have both modability and moders profitability expected in that too.
paying for the base product and then potentially having to pay for the mods that sometimes just are the rest of the work to be done, gets into some deep weeds i find is best just never gotten into in the first place.

Mod for the love it, mod privately for yourself, mod because it's good skill practice and can go on your resume, but no i can't get behind the idea of a paid for product designed so as to also be a profit platform for moders.

We don't need mods and extensions to run the game. They just save us time (and also make people lazy with the rules, especially with all the 5e extensions that automate stuff). They are just QOL items really. FG works fine without them.

[MrDDT]

We don't need mods and extensions to run the game. They just save us time (and also make people lazy with the rules, especially with all the 5e extensions that automate stuff). They are just QOL items really. FG works fine without them.

Need is relative. You don't even need FG at all to play D&D so your point is wrong if you consider the function of what FG is trying to do. For me I NEED a mod that rolls dice randomly because FG has really bad RNG for dice. For you, you might be totally happy with the way it rolls the dice with less RNG.

So saying something is a QOL is really relative. For me I need better tracking of attunement items, or options to see players range on players "vision". So can I do this with tape or just "remembering" to check their vison? Sure I can do it, however, it is not just a QOL thing. Unless you want to consider everything in FG is 100% QOL, because you don't need FG whatsoever to play D&D so anything over nothing is QOL.
Personally I feel like there are many minor things that should be coded into FGU that are much harder for ext to code than it be done straight into the FGU itself. EXT writers have to do extra things (sometimes greatly) to make it work, when if it was done on FGU side, it wouldn't need to be coded as hard. Example is concentration in 5E ruleset. You can roll it manually however, it being already programed in with extra tags for people to make effects for it make it so much better.

[Jiminimonka]

Need is relative. You don't even need FG at all to play D&D so your point is wrong if you consider the function of what FG is trying to do. For me I NEED a mod that rolls dice randomly because FG has really bad RNG for dice. For you, you might be totally happy with the way it rolls the dice with less RNG.

So saying something is a QOL is really relative. For me I need better tracking of attunement items, or options to see players range on players "vision". So can I do this with tape or just "remembering" to check their vison? Sure I can do it, however, it is not just a QOL thing. Unless you want to consider everything in FG is 100% QOL, because you don't need FG whatsoever to play D&D so anything over nothing is QOL.
Personally I feel like there are many minor things that should be coded into FGU that are much harder for ext to code than it be done straight into the FGU itself. EXT writers have to do extra things (sometimes greatly) to make it work, when if it was done on FGU side, it wouldn't need to be coded as hard. Example is concentration in 5E ruleset. You can roll it manually however, it being already programed in with extra tags for people to make effects for it make it so much better.

Yes let's play D&D. I'm in London. See you in 10 minutes.

And the dice rolls are as random as sitting around a table.

[Jiminimonka]

Also yeah need is relative. Some people are just lazy.

[Kelrugem]

Also yeah need is relative. Some people are just lazy.

That has nothing to do with laziness; some people have for example difficulties with certain calculations which is no reason to blame them for :) Hence, automation leads to better accessibility which is a very good thing. And just because one uses an extension to get rid of certain things, doesn't mean that one does less in total. It can also mean that one does more with respect to another aspect :) (Like more automation leading to that people can focus more on RP, so, no laziness here; though it is completely okay to want to be "lazy", especially because we speak about gaming :) As a mathematician, I don't want to do all the similar calculations again and again and again and again... while gaming :D)

To the discussion here in general: Yes, certainly good when the base programme does already have as much as possible. I think, there is nothing to argue against that. But it is always a matter of priority with respect to other possible features. Since I cannot DM at the moment, I play in a 5e game since a year; up to today I never had the feeling to need more automation than what is already provided :) (EDIT: Though certainly nice to have more options with extensions :) I just want to say that I did not have the feeling that there is a very big lack which should be immediately fixed. But I am also not a power user of 5e)

As someone who writes extensions: I do not necessarily need such a extension portal, but I'd be happy about it because then it is easier for users to look it up and to update extensions :) Forum threads tend to clutter up and spread around over time :D

[MrDDT]

Also yeah need is relative. Some people are just lazy.

Not sure how coding exts and installing them is lazy.

Again, you can play D&D without any tools whatsoever (maybe some dice) because you can play it all in your mind. Anything after that step is relative on need.
It's getting a little off topic but personally, I feel like there are a lot of simple exts that should be put into the game itself. I also feel there needs to be a better way for ext makers to put out exts. These exts can help make up for such very different choices people would like to make.

[SilentRuin]

Mod for the love it, mod privately for yourself, mod because it's good skill practice and can go on your resume, but no i can't get behind the idea of a paid for product designed so as to also be a profit platform for moders.

I choose to sell my extensions. I get lots of people want to do work for free, I even support a community extension for free.

Your choice, is not to buy anything. I support this choice.

My choice is to do it for free, or not. I support this choice also.

EXTENSIONS = RISK - whether they are for free or not. My recommendation is always the same, run FGU as it is and if you find something you want to change for your needs - write your own extensions - if you can't - find a free extension on the FG forums to meet that need - and if you can't - check the paid for extensions.

Basically, I support people who want to write free stuff.

What I don't support? People telling me I have to write and support free stuff. I assume you were not doing that, and simply made the phrasing seem that way to my eyes, and were simply expressing your opinion that you do not support paid extensions.

I'm perfectly fine with that stance.

Just not that I have to adopt that same choice :)

[EdMurray]

I know for my games I really enjoy the extension. Though what I liked most was the extensions in the Armory that sometimes got picked up and implemented into the game as part of a feature instead of an extension. Only a few talented people can actually code worth a damn. I am not one of them. So yes I rely on those more talented then me. I love this game and connection it gives us around the world. I've been playing since 1976 and having an online connection is next world stuff. I have to agree that a way to auto-update extensions makes far more since the the general public. If there is a risk for broken issues then I say when an extension is updated there be an auto off for that extension until it can be tested. There are lots of extensions that do not work nicely with each other so all extensions should be in the hands of the DM to turn on or off default to off when new. I also agree those who put in so much time should have the ability to be compensated somehow. Though I'm always hoping SW implements some the ones that are so popular to be a feature and not an extension. Always striving to be better is the way to go.

[similarly]

Here's my reason for supporting paid extensions.
Yes, there are a LOT of great extensions that are free. Some people don't need the money, or don't want the hassle of selling. But the truth is, I think there are a LOT of awesome mods that never would have been made without the incentive of being able to make money off of it.

I think having paid extensions as an option increases the number and quality of the mods and extensions we can get. FGU does a LOT of awesome things on its own, and I know a fair number of people who don't use extensions or mods. Me? I'm hooked on mods and extensions. I love being able to customize FGU into the experience that I want.

I hope they get this sorted soon because I really wanted that new extension by SilentRuin!

[Jiminimonka]

Its a moot debate really. Smiteworks already said they are working on implementing an extension facility (and took a dev off another job to do so) - so we will be getting in soon enough.

[Jiminimonka]

Let me give some history on why I ask this of the community first. As some of you know about 3 weeks ago I had an extension deactivated in DMsG (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?64106-Just-got-a-mail-from-DMsG-telling-me-they-are-pulling-all-extensions-for-sale-out) and put in a state of limbo after about 5 sales and 15 minutes. Within that thread it was mentioned by SmiteWorks (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?64106-Just-got-a-mail-from-DMsG-telling-me-they-are-pulling-all-extensions-for-sale-out&p=561106&viewfull=1#post561106) that they were working on an store app that would allow support of .ext files (extensions/code).

My question to the community is - how important would having this be to you?

I always tell people that EXTENSIONS = RISK and this is 100% absolutely true. People can break FG code with an extension. FG changes can break an extension. Other extensions can (and will inevitably) conflict with other extensions - though this can be minimized with careful implementation.

Yet, given all that RISK, extensions are a vital part of the community. I am a firm believer that you should try to use RAW FG code before you try any extension. Then, if during that adventure, you find you need something to make things easier to manage the game - write an extension for yourself. If you cannot, or do not want to do this, then search for a free extension in the forums that fulfills that need. And only if you you can't resolve your need still, search for a paid extension.

People may ask why any extension is "paid for" as they should all be free. That's a valid point of view. I maintain a free one for the community in fact. But I know how much work that is. And I know how much work making an extension can be (350 hours for one of mine). I make my extensions for myself. And put them in DMsG for others if they feel they are worth paying for. And why is it paid? Because it's my choice to do so and I like seeing if someone considers it worth while.

But regardless of where you fall in the great philosophical debate of "paid" or "free" - this post is to gauge the communities interest in getting SmiteWorks to get the previously mentioned application (see link above) out there.

I'm obviously prejudiced in my opinion of wanting it as I wait in limbo with one of my extensions - trapped in "between" the powers that be in resolving its fate - so you should not really count my opinion. Give yours. And why. Pro or con is all fine.

You can add a PayPal link to your extensions. Dulux-Oz did that with his Sound extension (the original soundboard that worked with Syrinscape) - if you paid his $5 (AUS) he would email the link.mod that saved you adding in all the URI to FG.

[bratch9]

While I think mods and extensions are good for FG, free or paid ( up to creator ), I do think FG should implement more by default. ( Minecraft would be far from what it is now without mods.. )

We 'just' got rule set support for 'offhand' automation, multiple extensions have implemented this for a while now....

I do not know when the 5e effects system was added, but this seems to be a crutch to implementing things in the rules. I see a load of 'mods', not extensions, that implement character features that should be part of the code. eg. 'rage' which has an official 5e effects listed implementation. Along with spell setups and item setups all that work in the effects system. I feel these sorts of things should be 'included' when you buy the game and added to when you buy the 'books'. For a lot of them it is mainly a need to configure them in the effect system, why should every player have set these up ?

As I understand the 5e rule set is based on SRD data, but I suspect if I look down the SRD spells/items I'll find spell/items that have effect implementations provided by the public that better automate the provided code/data. ( Yes we can do these by hand, either with dice rolls, or drawing on the map or even paper notes like we would at a real table, or grab a mod or extension. )

As a game developer of many year, I understand its a case of resource/time limits. At the end of the day, would we prefer a fuller automated rule set with just SRD and 'player's handbook'/'DM guild' adding the full features or would we prefer to have access to the massive collection of books and data ?

I'd like to see more effort in implementing new features that come with a 'book', and a review of released books that maybe can have extra 'data' added to them to setup effects that maybe were not available at the time the book was released. ( Yes this is a lot of work, even for one rule set and even more with all supported rule sets. )

Maybe a new requirement of a new 'book', that if it add new 'rules' these must be added to rule set automation or an extension provided with the book ?

I do feel that (some) extensions add features that probably should be built in, and I guess over time this will happen. But as others have hinted at, why should FG implement them while extensions add them ? ( And FG can get on with other features/books which we might want.. )

Maybe the rule sets need to go more open git available, more like linux kernel, and then we can submit code patches to add features to the core, and FG become a gate keeper to 'approve' those into the system ?

I'd like to see access to 'debug/breakpoints' line by line lua, I do not know if this is available in the 'dev' build branch, but I do not think it is. ( Or allow the 'dev' build to support 'remote' debug lua callback setup so we can run and external ide to debug, better than debug via print statements/reload.. )

The Paid issue is up to the creators, but I'd like to see a 'donate' option available on free/paid/developer page of any FG implemented extension/mod 'store'. ( With Minecraft, most of the mods are free, but most are download via 'advert sites' and have 'donate' for developers... But this comes from many years ago before we had as much 'free' with adverts on phone games or the likes of facebook/goggle doing direct tracked adverts to pay their bills.. ) I know when I put my extensions up, as 'pay what you want' on dms guild most people paid nothing, which I think is more a sign of the times, people much more used to 'free' because they expect an advert to pay the bills.. But we do not have that option in FG, as I would hate to see a 'pop-up' in FG on load/client connect that say 'extension 'name' remove advert pop-up only $2' generated per extension.... that would be sad.

I think we all love FG and the unity version is getting much better, and I hope it becomes the main product ( now its more stable and feature rich ) and focus can start to go back to rule set feature fixes/additions. While I'd love to see new 'advanced' features like the 'light level' support process per-character vision ability or maybe animated tokens or maybe 'sound' api functions or been able to pop-out windows onto a different monitor. But I'd would love to see work on more things like the 'offhand' and getting more spells/items/character features programmed up by default..

-pete

[SilentRuin]

You can add a PayPal link to your extensions. Dulux-Oz did that with his Sound extension (the original soundboard that worked with Syrinscape) - if you paid his $5 (AUS) he would email the link.mod that saved you adding in all the URI to FG.

I assume they have a publishing agreement license with SW then. As otherwise, that would not be legal as SW would not be able to get its cut. Or so I understand things. And before people fly off the handle at that - it's their software. Nothing I do in an extension can work without literally being built off the SW proprietary application - so yes, I need to pay my dues if I try to sell it. For free? Fine. Patreon or any other mechanism for making a profit off it without a publishing agreement with SW? Likely not legit.

IMHO based on what I've been told.

[LordEntrails]

.... Nothing I do in an extension can work without literally being built off the SW proprietary application - so yes, I need to pay my dues if I try to sell it. For free? Fine. Patreon or any other mechanism for making a profit off it without a publishing agreement with SW? Likely not legit.

IMHO based on what I've been told.
Correct. See the link in my sig on Licensing for more details/discussion.

[EllivasKram]

I would like some extns to become base product.

The weapon handling extn has become redundant

Surely the dice tower should also become base product.

Once the new wish list features are added to base product (lighting and LOS distance etc). I would hope this can become true to a great degree. At least smiteworks approved status that confirms the code is written to a standard. I certainly want the percentage cut going to smiteworks and not dmsguild. If it means some support and testing is done on beta releases and work with developers is made at beta stage to fix issues.

Everyone wins if smiteworks is earning a cut then.

[Zacchaeus]

Dice Tower is a base item.

[EllivasKram]

Sorry I meant local dice tower.

[Jiminimonka]

I assume they have a publishing agreement license with SW then. As otherwise, that would not be legal as SW would not be able to get its cut. Or so I understand things. And before people fly off the handle at that - it's their software. Nothing I do in an extension can work without literally being built off the SW proprietary application - so yes, I need to pay my dues if I try to sell it. For free? Fine. Patreon or any other mechanism for making a profit off it without a publishing agreement with SW? Likely not legit.

IMHO based on what I've been told.

Dulux-Oz was a moderator on these forums. He made lots of extensions. All free. However for the link file for Syrinscape sounds he charged $5. I doubt it has anything to do with an agreement with Smiteworks, since people sell (or did, as you well know) lots of extension on DMsGuild.

But, having said that, when SW make the portal for mods and extensions, you won't need to be receiving payments via paypal or Patreon.

[Jiminimonka]

I would like some extns to become base product.

The weapon handling extn has become redundant

Surely the dice tower should also become base product.

Once the new wish list features are added to base product (lighting and LOS distance etc). I would hope this can become true to a great degree. At least smiteworks approved status that confirms the code is written to a standard. I certainly want the percentage cut going to smiteworks and not dmsguild. If it means some support and testing is done on beta releases and work with developers is made at beta stage to fix issues.

Everyone wins if smiteworks is earning a cut then.

Smiteworks have added loads of extensions to the core system over the years.

[SilentRuin]

Dulux-Oz was a moderator on these forums. He made lots of extensions. All free. However for the link file for Syrinscape sounds he charged $5. I doubt it has anything to do with an agreement with Smiteworks, since people sell (or did, as you well know) lots of extension on DMsGuild.

But, having said that, when SW make the portal for mods and extensions, you won't need to be receiving payments via paypal or Patreon.

Anything on DMsG does have a licence with SW. And they get their cut. So not sure what your trying to say there. That's legal. It's WOTC that wanted extensions removed - per other threads that have already gone into that.

[Aramis Dante]

I love the idea of Smiteworks providing an area for extensions paid for or not. I personally don't mind paying for a extension or getting one for free. The people who take the time to make them see a niche that needs to be filled and they fill it. If they want some cash in the process, I don't mind obliging them because I don't know how to do that sort of thing. One thing I might add is a place where customers can make requests and modders, and/or developers can determine whether they want to do it. I think that this would make a already growing community boom. As for the naysayers on paying, let free enterprise dictate it. People will pay for what they want.

Sincerely Aramis

[Beemanpat]

Hope to hear some more news on the Fantasy Forge soon. I know it'll happen when happens but still.....patience is sometimes difficult.

[bratch9]

I'd be happy if I can create a 'dev' area in my account, and a page for each extension.. Even if it just looks like a forum page.

Just a known location users can goto to search/get the download.... If we can have integration into fantasy grounds, like the books downloading, that would be extra nice.

I think devs are more after getting a known space to host the extensions without the worry of it been removed at the moment. ( While I'd love paid support, I can wait a bit for that. )

[SilentRuin]

As January is coming to an end, I figured I'd ask on the progress of FG Forge. Also, if I must admit, curious about the lighting feature progress also.

If it's permissible to share that info of course.

[Moon Wizard]

We don't usually publicly announce specific dates on any features; due to the fact that dates and priorities shift all the time. Here is a rough outline of where we are.

For vision/lighting, we are still getting a new build every 1-2 days as we work through the actual usage scenarios. We also need to build out the support in the client and tools to allow lighting to be added to existing content; as well as to run through the whole process on a number of official modules. That is in process; and Doug is even pushing for doing another preview shortly.

For the forge, the initial work on the web and database side is mostly done; and we are working on the updates needed in the patch system and updater to support end user registration and purchase. Projects like this that touch many systems tend to be a bit cyclical (i.e. changes on one system require changes on another, and vice versa); so we still need to run through all the details and workflows once the initial patch/update portion is complete.

Regards,
JPG

[LordEntrails]

Great info Moon, thanks!

[Nylanfs]

Have you tried using the "Easy" button that quite a few IT manager's assume that their dept has access to?

[Sulimo]

Have you tried using the "Easy" button that quite a few IT manager's assume that their dept has access to?

Or you could just buy one (https://www.staples.com/Staples-Easy-Button/product_606396). :p

[LordEntrails]

Or you could just buy one (https://www.staples.com/Staples-Easy-Button/product_606396). :p
Would that be bad if I sent one to my manager?

[bratch9]

while not part of this thread, but it sort of is....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hoQzjBcZE4

lighting demo videos are out...

looking nice.. again people saying its more work for the DM like spell token layers etc... And why does the 'token vision' not auto pick up from the character/npc sheet etc. ( hope this happens before release etc.. )

Also in our last game we had to disable LoS due to performance issue, and the lighting looks to pushes this more, so I hope performance is also considered.

Thanks for the rest of the update JPG, looking forward to extension support.

-pete

edit: one of the other videos says vision will come from character/npc sheet... but will a character have a list of light sources they can enable/disable... like glowing sword etc..

[damned]

lighting and line of sight will increase the load on GM and Player computers. It wont be practical for everyone to use.

[bratch9]

lighting and line of sight will increase the load on GM and Player computers. It wont be practical for everyone to use.

Well I run a 8 core 16 thread amd 1700x with 32gb ram and a rtx 2080... if with only LoS this is not a suitable computer, then I hate to think what is needed for lighting... multiple sli rtx 3090 and a cpu 64/128 thread with 1TB ram ?

But lets be realistic, if you need a super high end pc to run LoS+lighting then its going to make the development of this pointless as everybody will fail to be able to use it ?

And this will bring up things like, module load stalling, login stalling, and general normal day user bug fixes been requested as higher features to be fixed, instead of time on 'fun' new render stuff to develop. ( I know its more fun to do the new render stuff than boring bug fixes and performance.... but FGU is slower doing many basic FGC things, and should have been built in modern threaded and hence not 'stall' the win proc message loops when loading modules/login/scanning and generating long window lists etc.. )

Current steam hardware is suggesting 4 core 16gb gtx 1060 as the more average pc, and I'd expect LoS and lighting to work very well on these as they are fairly quick hardware, if a little dated now. But people dont upgrade all the time.

-pete


Edit: Attached an image from a 3d table top running about 1850 3d meshes, while loading is low updates but not stalling at about 5 fps and it can 'download' without stalling user interactions, and once all loaded goes up to about 40 fps on my 5k resolution display...

I think FG on my machine should not have an issue with a few sprites and some polygon shader LoS+lighting render update when showing, not even, a full screen map etc...

And for reference the 3d table top is a unity application at significantly lower cost to FGU...

[Jiminimonka]

Well I run a 8 core 16 thread amd 1700x with 32gb ram and a rtx 2080... if with only LoS this is not a suitable computer, then I hate to think what is needed for lighting... multiple sli rtx 3090 and a cpu 64/128 thread with 1TB ram ?

But lets be realistic, if you need a super high end pc to run LoS+lighting then its going to make the development of this pointless as everybody will fail to be able to use it ?

And this will bring up things like, module load stalling, login stalling, and general normal day user bug fixes been requested as higher features to be fixed, instead of time on 'fun' new render stuff to develop. ( I know its more fun to do the new render stuff than boring bug fixes and performance.... but FGU is slower doing many basic FGC things, and should have been built in modern threaded and hence not 'stall' the win proc message loops when loading modules/login/scanning and generating long window lists etc.. )

Current steam hardware is suggesting 4 core 16gb gtx 1060 as the more average pc, and I'd expect LoS and lighting to work very well on these as they are fairly quick hardware, if a little dated now. But people dont upgrade all the time.

-pete


Edit: Attached an image from a 3d table top running about 1850 3d meshes, while loading is low updates but not stalling at about 5 fps and it can 'download' without stalling user interactions, and once all loaded goes up to about 40 fps on my 5k resolution display...

I think FG on my machine should not have an issue with a few sprites and some polygon shader LoS+lighting render update when showing, not even, a full screen map etc...

And for reference the 3d table top is a unity application at significantly lower cost to FGU...

It won't be a major burden to most PCs - just old junk that people should have thrown (updated) out years ago. Like everything else it will get improved over time.

[damned]

Im using an 8year old i5 with 2cores, 8gb ram, 2gb entry level gfx card, single QHD screen and an SSD hard disk.
Group is normally 6 players plus me.
It runs fine for me for what Im doing.
What else is going on on your setup?
How many modules are you loading?
How many actors in your CT?
How many extensions are you running?
I dont know why you are seeing performance issues but maybe there are things that can be changed on your side?

Edit: Im wrong, its 7years old and its 4 cores, no hyperthreading.

[Jiminimonka]

We don't usually publicly announce specific dates on any features; due to the fact that dates and priorities shift all the time. Here is a rough outline of where we are.

For vision/lighting, we are still getting a new build every 1-2 days as we work through the actual usage scenarios. We also need to build out the support in the client and tools to allow lighting to be added to existing content; as well as to run through the whole process on a number of official modules. That is in process; and Doug is even pushing for doing another preview shortly.

For the forge, the initial work on the web and database side is mostly done; and we are working on the updates needed in the patch system and updater to support end user registration and purchase. Projects like this that touch many systems tend to be a bit cyclical (i.e. changes on one system require changes on another, and vice versa); so we still need to run through all the details and workflows once the initial patch/update portion is complete.

Regards,
JPG

Adding this to the Community project for LOS would be acceptable I believe. I have loads of spare time and don't mind adding light to maps and such.

[bratch9]

We have a chunk of extensions turned on, mainly rob2e stuff, we were in storm kings thunder on night stone map, 7 players with maybe 20 npc. I was not host but most of us were getting performance response issues, DM turned of LoS only and all was fine from then on.

We have a mix of location in the US/UK, so this could be some 'network' traffic tick dragging down the response rate, as you say it should not be graphic related cost... but we were playing and it was not time to 'debug' into what was causing it..

Not sure if the map also has 'snow' effect on top, and I dont recall if this was also turned off to fix the response rate.

We have a session tonight, so I might suggest turning things on and maybe getting some more information... but when playing with people over different time zones its not the thing to ask them giving up more 'home' time on a saturday to debug issue that can be fixed with turning off a couple of things in game... that were not that important in a more 'day' time map..

-pete

[Jiminimonka]

We have a chunk of extensions turned on, mainly rob2e stuff, we were in storm kings thunder on night stone map, 7 players with maybe 20 npc. I was not host but most of us were getting performance response issues, DM turned of LoS only and all was fine from then on.

We have a mix of location in the US/UK, so this could be some 'network' traffic tick dragging down the response rate, as you say it should not be graphic related cost... but we were playing and it was not time to 'debug' into what was causing it..

Not sure if the map also has 'snow' effect on top, and I dont recall if this was also turned off to fix the response rate.

We have a session tonight, so I might suggest turning things on and maybe getting some more information... but when playing with people over different time zones its not the thing to ask them giving up more 'home' time on a saturday to debug issue that can be fixed with turning off a couple of things in game... that were not that important in a more 'day' time map..

-pete

You don't need to debug, just make everyone send their log files and then forward to [email protected]

[bratch9]

You don't need to debug, just make everyone send their log files and then forward to [email protected]

When we play tonight, I'll ask to get things turned back on, and get the guys to post the each players log file into our discord if we are having issues again..

-pete

[damned]

with 26 combatants and Line of Sight the number of calculations going on for each of those is likely the cause.
next time that happens try turning LoS back on after you have killed 1/3 or 1/2 the enemy and see what happens...
i think that some maps use a lot more occluders than others and this combined with large numbers of actors is taxing the Lua processing ability...

[LordEntrails]

Note, it is the GM computer that does the vast majority of calculations. So they are the bottle neck. And as damned implied, the amount of calculations the DM computer has to calculate for LOS is roughly the number of CT actors times the number of occluders. And some folks get carried away with occluders thinking they have to follow the exact outline of trees and curved walls etc. They don't. imo no occluder should be less than 1/2 a grid long. And that's pushing it.

[SilentRuin]

with 26 combatants and Line of Sight the number of calculations going on for each of those is likely the cause.
next time that happens try turning LoS back on after you have killed 1/3 or 1/2 the enemy and see what happens...
i think that some maps use a lot more occluders than others and this combined with large numbers of actors is taxing the Lua processing ability...

Find the following helps in lag/update delays when playing FGU 5E with extensions. First I make sure my combat tracker is brought up - scrolled to top and bottom to insure all things have been loaded in memory at least once. I then make sure the map is up and has had a chance to be loaded (shared) to all the players. The delays are then seriously reduced (worst case was recently for COS Wizard of Wines with a crap ton of blights running around in close proximity). At that point the only delays suffered were when targeting was being applied or removed for fireball type of effects (most things were targeted). Gist being - 90% of the time I never suffer lag/delays for players. That may also be because I cut out the middle man (cloud server) and do everything through LAN with a very good network and decent machine.

IF SW is going to look for places to save on delays I'd concentrate on map/CT targeting interactions as one of the heaviest usage points. IMHO.

[bratch9]

with 26 combatants and Line of Sight the number of calculations going on for each of those is likely the cause.
next time that happens try turning LoS back on after you have killed 1/3 or 1/2 the enemy and see what happens...
i think that some maps use a lot more occluders than others and this combined with large numbers of actors is taxing the Lua processing ability...

just some very quick approx performance numbers...

Loading player's handbook in a new campaign..

FGC ~1 second.. ( time by hand with stop watch on phone. )
FGU 4.65 seconds.. ( Because the console window logs it !! )



If i load MM and DMG, to add more 'items'... and then open the item window, and select the 'weapons' popup...

FGC ~1.3 seconds. ( time by hand with stop watch on phone. )
FGU ~2.5 seconds. ( time by hand with stop watch on phone. )


Time to restart campaign, from pressing 'load' to showing desktop...

FGC 13 seconds. ( time by hand with stop watch on phone. )
FGU 28 seconds. ( time by hand with stop watch on phone. )



I dont think its much to consider that the new FGU should be 'Faster' and more 'responsive' than the old version it replaces.


Checking the LoS in nightstone, see attached... I agree with Lord, that the occludes around the windmill, and the main encamp and even in the source castle could do with a clean up... and probably accounts for a lot of the issue as we were fighting on the broken bridge etc..

-pete


EDIT: on the night stone map, on my local machine with just one character. My machine gets 60fps ( probably vsync capped, can this be turned off ? ), but stutters every so often down to 40fps when you drag the token about like a mad man !! I just get a stutter every few seconds, probably as it caches some more data and maybe it 'refines' the LoS visible list by doing a simplification etc..

[bratch9]

Find the following helps in lag/update delays when playing FGU 5E with extensions. First I make sure my combat tracker is brought up - scrolled to top and bottom to insure all things have been loaded in memory at least once. I then make sure the map is up and has had a chance to be loaded (shared) to all the players. The delays are then seriously reduced (worst case was recently for COS Wizard of Wines with a crap ton of blights running around in close proximity). At that point the only delays suffered were when targeting was being applied or removed for fireball type of effects (most things were targeted). Gist being - 90% of the time I never suffer lag/delays for players. That may also be because I cut out the middle man (cloud server) and do everything through LAN with a very good network and decent machine.

IF SW is going to look for places to save on delays I'd concentrate on map/CT targeting interactions as one of the heaviest usage points. IMHO.

Our DM local hosts on his own machine, he has nice new fancy 1gbps fiber, I have to slum it out in the country with 40mbps which we had to fight for in the village as a lot of us are on the last 'BT' box and they did not convert it... because it might 'flood', which has never happened in 20+ years of living in this area... Took us 8 years from the village going FTTC to getting the last box converted, and I could get away from 512kbps...

We were well into hours of play on the map, so everything should be loaded and cached, and as I said turning off LoS fixed the bulk of our issue..

-pete

[SilentRuin]

Our DM local hosts on his own machine, he has nice new fancy 1gbps fiber, I have to slum it out in the country with 40mbps which we had to fight for in the village as a lot of us are on the last 'BT' box and they did not convert it... because it might 'flood', which has never happened in 20+ years of living in this area... Took us 8 years from the village going FTTC to getting the last box converted, and I could get away from 512kbps...

We were well into hours of play on the map, so everything should be loaded and cached, and as I said turning off LoS fixed the bulk of our issue..

-pete

Can for sure see a poorly designed LOS map could kill performance. Simple is always better when making LOS. If you have a lot of things jumbled together in a single line of sight for any token I'd say with enough tokens and perspectives you could easily kill the performance of any map. KISS rule in effect when doing LOS for my maps. Mostly in Curse of Strahd where they are fairly straight forward.

[Griogre]

It's not just poorly designed LOS maps. It's also just poorly designed game maps in general. Large maps also traditionally kills LOS performance as well. Large rooms with lots of round pillars is a good example of a killer, then add lighting with even more shadow casts. Even though you might only put a 4 occluders around the room the video card and game engine usually has to break large rooms up into sections and break those 4 occluders up into smaller ones on the fly.

It makes a difference on your pillars too, square pillars are much more performance friendly than simiround ones with lots of points.

I spend time as a level designer and one of the things people are going to have to learn to balance is map size vs. LOS performance. When FGU came out with 64 bit performance suddenly, everyone was doing very large high resolution maps because you could. Then LOS cuts back on the performance of these maps. Then individual lighting will cut it back more. It's just a balance people need to find.

[SilentRuin]

It's not just poorly designed LOS maps. It's also just poorly designed game maps in general. Large maps also traditionally kills LOS performance as well. Large rooms with lots of round pillars is a good example of a killer, then add lighting with even more shadow casts. Even though you might only put a 4 occluders around the room the video card and game engine usually has to break large rooms up into sections and break those 4 occluders up into smaller ones on the fly.

It makes a difference on your pillars too, square pillars are much more performance friendly than simiround ones with lots of points.

I spend time as a level designer and one of the things people are going to have to learn to balance is map size vs. LOS performance. When FGU came out with 64 bit performance suddenly, everyone was doing very large high resolution maps because you could. Then LOS cuts back on the performance of these maps. Then individual lighting will cut it back more. It's just a balance people need to find.

Actually - for larger rooms? Lighting would REDUCE the load. You don't calculate LOS outside of the radius of light - hence - less to calculate. Was the infinite LOS that killed you. Be happy they are limiting your danger to that type of thing. I assume this based on what I assume has been done on the programming side to keep things simple. If not - then I don't see the load issue at all as it would only be a post op of ruling out things not in radius of light sources (as full LOS would still be done as it is now that would be a minor add on in logic). IMHO

[similarly]

Note, it is the GM computer that does the vast majority of calculations. So they are the bottle neck. And as damned implied, the amount of calculations the DM computer has to calculate for LOS is roughly the number of CT actors times the number of occluders. And some folks get carried away with occluders thinking they have to follow the exact outline of trees and curved walls etc. They don't. imo no occluder should be less than 1/2 a grid long. And that's pushing it.

That is very good information. I'll try to take that into consideration when doing LOS. I have, unfortunately, quite a lot of occluders that are less than 1/2 a grid because I'm trying to close up gaps in the LOS so that they're not accidentally seeing through walls, etc., or looking through the gap between door and frame (though that actually could be pretty cool). I'll keep it in mind.

[SilentRuin]

FG FORGE!!!!! GIMMEEE!!!!! Just saying - the other thread is Lighting :)

[SmackDaddy]

I hadn't been able to reply to the OP yet but see that it's gotten to 10 pgs already. Personally, I use a LOT of extensions/modules and enjoy doing so. I've bought a couple only later to find that they clash with another - I have to gauge which one I prefer and completely understand it's a buyer's beware situation from the outset.....as with ANY software purchase.

For me, the idea of a FG Extension store is rated 5 out of 5 for my desire of it being crucial. My only problem would be if all of the ext authors moved from DMSGuild to the FG Forge, where does that leave my previous purchase and how would I be entitled to the updates I get now? Logistically, I am not sure how that would work.....but if FG Store already has modules for sale, I don't see why we WOULDN'T want them to include extensions as well as other modules released outside of the FG Store (i.e. the Monster Loot modules as well as things like the Ships and Cannon modules to name a couple)

As long as I wouldn't have to purchase it twice, chances are, I am going to be a Forge user for life! /my2cents

[damned]

Actually - for larger rooms? Lighting would REDUCE the load. You don't calculate LOS outside of the radius of light - hence - less to calculate. Was the infinite LOS that killed you. Be happy they are limiting your danger to that type of thing. I assume this based on what I assume has been done on the programming side to keep things simple. If not - then I don't see the load issue at all as it would only be a post op of ruling out things not in radius of light sources (as full LOS would still be done as it is now that would be a minor add on in logic). IMHO

That is an assumption at this time. Its also very likely that completely different processes/functions/whatever do each. The LoS is done first and then the Lighting done over the top... This is also an assumption by me...

[damned]

As long as I wouldn't have to purchase it twice, chances are, I am going to be a Forge user for life! /my2cents

That is one of the things that they are working on - how to (if possible) transfer your purchase to the Forge...
Its not trivial because of privacy issues.

[MrDDT]

It's not just poorly designed LOS maps. It's also just poorly designed game maps in general. Large maps also traditionally kills LOS performance as well. Large rooms with lots of round pillars is a good example of a killer, then add lighting with even more shadow casts. Even though you might only put a 4 occluders around the room the video card and game engine usually has to break large rooms up into sections and break those 4 occluders up into smaller ones on the fly.

It makes a difference on your pillars too, square pillars are much more performance friendly than simiround ones with lots of points.

I spend time as a level designer and one of the things people are going to have to learn to balance is map size vs. LOS performance. When FGU came out with 64 bit performance suddenly, everyone was doing very large high resolution maps because you could. Then LOS cuts back on the performance of these maps. Then individual lighting will cut it back more. It's just a balance people need to find.

I hate to get off topic here, but I never have performance issues when I'm the DM, however, as a player some DM's have issues and they don't even have much on the map with LOS in FGU.


I run maps that are 200x200 (1000ftx1000ft) or even bigger of a forest with each tree having it's own terrain LOS and other items on it like buildings and inns for LOS with no lag or performance issues at all.43361

I'm not sure what is the problem but I do think it has to do with HD (first importance), internet (second importance), and CPU (third importance).
I can give you my specs if that helps but from what I've seen its mostly those 3 things.

I also have a ton of stuff shared to players but not yet opened up by them.

[similarly]

That is one of the things that they are working on - how to (if possible) transfer your purchase to the Forge...
Its not trivial because of privacy issues.

If it's difficult or impossible to do, I totally understand the privacy issue. However, it WOULD be awesome to be able to transfer it and have it all in one place where it can all update at the same time.

[bratch9]

If it's difficult or impossible to do, I totally understand the privacy issue. However, it WOULD be awesome to be able to transfer it and have it all in one place where it can all update at the same time.

Well the dms guild app you can use to download uses an api and oath key, so I dont see why you can not just add this key in the same way as the steam link... and this is a user giving permission to 'look' at the available downloads/purchases... then its just a matter of having a matching game name on the forge side to auto 'gift' that user a forge key for that extension...

Yes, its still a pain, and might have a bunch of issue as I'm not sure if the dmg guild api is public documented for use etc.....

anyway, we need to get the free extension forge version first... then wait for the paid version.

Im sure nobody cares about 'free extension' on dms guild and having to 're-get' a free version off the Forge etc... Its only paid extensions on dms guild that we need a solution for, and since that is probably many months away until we get paid forge extensions, its less of an issue for now...

-Pete

[Ludd_G]

I really really hope it's not 'many months away' as this whole issue (which the Forge is meant to remedy) we all know has come about due to the de-listing of (almost exclusively paid) extensions on DMs Guild, so this length of wait would really hurt a significant part of the extension dev community. Fingers crossed the paid-for version is only a matter of weeks away.

Cheers,

Simon

[LordEntrails]

Well the dms guild app you can use to download uses an api and oath key, so I dont see why you can not just add this key in the same way as the steam link... and this is a user giving permission to 'look' at the available downloads/purchases... then its just a matter of having a matching game name on the forge side to auto 'gift' that user a forge key for that extension...
This of course assumes OBS is willing to give SmiteWorks the ability to use the api.

[SilentRuin]

This of course assumes OBS is willing to give SmiteWorks the ability to use the api.

Hopefully they already have an idea of what they are going to do at this point. For sure, given that we can update the deliveries of even removed DMsG content, some way to ID someone with valid access can be determined. Yes, I know this for a fact, as Combat Groups is the only extension effected by all this so far and I have kept it updated for the 5 people who own it - before it was removed from public access. They can access it on their accounts page to "download" even though its been disabled.

In any case, ANYTHING is better than NOTHING. IMHO.

[DMMoseley23]

....Combat Groups is the only extension effected by all this so far and I have kept it updated for the 5 people who own it

Being one of those who downloaded it, I sure appreciate you keeping up with it. It's a great addition for a crowded combat tracker where real estate is a premium. Nice job and I hope SW gets the situation resolved asap. I have really appreciated the ability to add extensions to enhance game play, and it's a shame developers like you have been stymied - hopefully only temporarily.

DMMoseley

[SilentRuin]

Being one of those who downloaded it, I sure appreciate you keeping up with it. It's a great addition for a crowded combat tracker where real estate is a premium. Nice job and I hope SW gets the situation resolved asap. I have really appreciated the ability to add extensions to enhance game play, and it's a shame developers like you have been stymied - hopefully only temporarily.

DMMoseley

I'm fine as I have access to all my extensions which I wrote primarily for me :) The only one your missing is Assistant GM so you are probably fine also! But yeah, waiting to hear some updates on FG Forge or when the Beta is going to start would be good. I tend to ping Grim Press to ping SW if there is any new news on it rather than doing it myself. But what the heck, as I'm here...

PING

[ddavison]

Just an update. The Forge is taking a bit longer to work through than expected. It's a relatively big and complex system that interfaces with several places. In addition, Steven occasionally gets pulled off to trace down network logs, or diagnose a crash condition for Linux users for our Customer Support team. Other than those things, he is designated to work on the Forge. He has much of it built in a test environment.

[MrDDT]

Just an update. The Forge is taking a bit longer to work through than expected. It's a relatively big and complex system that interfaces with several places. In addition, Steven occasionally gets pulled off to trace down network logs, or diagnose a crash condition for Linux users for our Customer Support team. Other than those things, he is designated to work on the Forge. He has much of it built in a test environment.

Thank you so much for the update and you guys are doing great. I can't wait to see all the new updates you got coming out for the website (forge) and FGU. Keep up the good work.

[charmov]

I think it's good for devs and casual users. Can't wait to see it.

[deer_buster]

IMHO, this is a great example of how an extension update manager could/should work. It gives you a list of extensions that are "out of date", shows you your current version and the new version. Gives you the change to see the info on what the extension is, and the ability to see the changelog. I think ideally it should show the last date the extension was modified and give you the ability to select which version you want to update to (if there are more than one versions available).

[Daniel Fletcher]

Mad Nomad has a 3rd party updater that works for now. I use it to keep up to date on the extensions I use. Hopefully the Forge will have a good way to keep updated: I think Mad Nomad has to collect the update versions from the various authors:43655

[similarly]

Mad Nomad has a 3rd party updater that works for now. I use it to keep up to date on the extensions I use. Hopefully the Forge will have a good way to keep updated: I think Mad Nomad has to collect the update versions from the various authors:43655

Oh, I tried using that updater and couldn't get it to work.

[SilentRuin]

Oh, I tried using that updater and couldn't get it to work.

As I've said - I stopped updating mine after religiously doing it once I realized they were still multiple versions out of date.

[bratch9]

Any updates on this ?

Any chance maybe FG devs could post an in-progress image ?

So we can see what it might look like in use for an extension dev/upload/flow/listing, and a user view side of the site... and the in game work flow etc.. that are been considered ?

Hence we can post some feedback if we spot anything that is going to be a pain or might not work or could be improved on etc...

[bmos]

Personally: 1/5.
Community: 2/5-4/5 depending on implementation.
I would find much more utility in ruleset updates to break up the huge functions like "onAttack" into component parts that return values. This would make updating extensions and avoiding incompatibility WAY easier.


Mad Nomad has a 3rd party updater that works for now. I use it to keep up to date on the extensions I use. Hopefully the Forge will have a good way to keep updated: I think Mad Nomad has to collect the update versions from the various authors:43655That updater extension is 5E only :(

[l33tm4ch1n3]

Personally: 5/5
Community: Could go either way.

I'm a recent purchaser and plan to run a campaign sometime soon. Having used roll20 for over a year as a player, I can say that in terms of investment fantasy grounds is not only the cheaper option but has much more convenience going for it. The base level roll automation is fantastic and saves a lot of time. But, I would like more automation, I would like more convenience, I would like less time thinking about the mechanics and more time in the RP. So I want to invest in some of the automation these extensions offer. As I understand, "The Forge" app would allow SmiteWorks to take a cut of the profits (or more IDK how the licensing actually works) from these extensions. I would like my money to support SmiteWorks and the authors of these extensions. Its the same reason why I bought the ULT license off the SmiteWorks store and not Steam. As much as I want to buy SilentRuin's Stuff off the DMs Guild now, I want to support SmiteWorks more. So I eagerly wait for an update and am ready to dump money into this app as soon as it is ready. Thank you and have nice day.

[Jiminimonka]

Personally: 5/5
Community: Could go either way.

I'm a recent purchaser and plan to run a campaign sometime soon. Having used roll20 for over a year as a player, I can say that in terms of investment fantasy grounds is not only the cheaper option but has much more convenience going for it. The base level roll automation is fantastic and saves a lot of time. But, I would like more automation, I would like more convenience, I would like less time thinking about the mechanics and more time in the RP. So I want to invest in some of the automation these extensions offer. As I understand, "The Forge" app would allow SmiteWorks to take a cut of the profits (or more IDK how the licensing actually works) from these extensions. I would like my money to support SmiteWorks and the authors of these extensions. Its the same reason why I bought the ULT license off the SmiteWorks store and not Steam. As much as I want to buy SilentRuin's Stuff off the DMs Guild now, I want to support SmiteWorks more. So I eagerly wait for an update and am ready to dump money into this app as soon as it is ready. Thank you and have nice day.

100% - Welcome to FantasyGrounds!

[SilentRuin]

Personally: 5/5
Community: Could go either way.

I'm a recent purchaser and plan to run a campaign sometime soon. Having used roll20 for over a year as a player, I can say that in terms of investment fantasy grounds is not only the cheaper option but has much more convenience going for it. The base level roll automation is fantastic and saves a lot of time. But, I would like more automation, I would like more convenience, I would like less time thinking about the mechanics and more time in the RP. So I want to invest in some of the automation these extensions offer. As I understand, "The Forge" app would allow SmiteWorks to take a cut of the profits (or more IDK how the licensing actually works) from these extensions. I would like my money to support SmiteWorks and the authors of these extensions. Its the same reason why I bought the ULT license off the SmiteWorks store and not Steam. As much as I want to buy SilentRuin's Stuff off the DMs Guild now, I want to support SmiteWorks more. So I eagerly wait for an update and am ready to dump money into this app as soon as it is ready. Thank you and have nice day.

Extensions = RISK. I'd stick to RAW FGU till you are familiar with it. Then search for things you want that are FREE here in the forums to fill any needs. Then and only then - go to see what paid has to offer. Gist being - you will always be safe with the RAW product. You will never be safe with extensions. If you can accept that - then that's the only time I'd use them. IMHO

[ironsplitter]

Adding extensions isn't like landing a Rover on Mars. The risk is pretty minimal. If it causes issues, you can just disable the extension. FG has created an architecture that allows extension authors to improve the base, and we should celebrate that, not treat it like it is some dark art that we should fear. It's not a big deal.

For any new user reading this, I started FG a little over a year ago and, within the first week, had a handful of extensions installed. Occasionally they will throw errors or stop working, at which point I abandon them, unless their authors are active.

Some extensions cost a little money and you run the risk that the author might bail on support, but usually the cost is minimal. At some point you might be a little peeved that an extension author isn't fixing a problem, but at the end of the day you spent less than you would going to Starbucks before work. Most extensions work fine.

[LordEntrails]

Adding extensions isn't like landing a Rover on Mars. The risk is pretty minimal. If it causes issues, you can just disable the extension. FG has created an architecture that allows extension authors to improve the base, and we should celebrate that, not treat it like it is some dark art that we should fear. It's not a big deal.
Understandable. But for others it is a significant risk. There are all too many people who post on the forums following an update that they forgot or didn't know to update (or disable, or even test) extensions they are using are are near irate that their game session had to be cancelled because of errors due to an extension not being updated etc.

In the end, it all depends upon the user, and how well they understand the implications of the choices they make. Undeniably extensions do increase the level of risk of using FG. But, the more a user knows, and understands, the less significant that risk is. What is important is that everyone be better informed :)

[SilentRuin]

Adding extensions isn't like landing a Rover on Mars. The risk is pretty minimal. If it causes issues, you can just disable the extension. FG has created an architecture that allows extension authors to improve the base, and we should celebrate that, not treat it like it is some dark art that we should fear. It's not a big deal.

For any new user reading this, I started FG a little over a year ago and, within the first week, had a handful of extensions installed. Occasionally they will throw errors or stop working, at which point I abandon them, unless their authors are active.

Some extensions cost a little money and you run the risk that the author might bail on support, but usually the cost is minimal. At some point you might be a little peeved that an extension author isn't fixing a problem, but at the end of the day you spent less than you would going to Starbucks before work. Most extensions work fine.

I write extensions. I use my extensions. I maintain free and paid extensions. I'm here to tell you - Extensions = RISK. Always. And forever.

Having reiterated that - my comment was more to try to raise awareness and lessen the impact of false BUG spamming at FGU because someone has not turned off their extensions when using TEST server for this particularly risky update to them. And in a much more subtle way than say the update that broke all extensions. Because having something spit out a big ERROR message and cease to work is pretty obvious.

But having something spit out no error messages, and simply not support some underlying core code that makes something - not quite work as it should - is way more subtle and dangerous type of thing. So, just saying. Beware. And do what I said when testing. IMHO

[bratch9]

I write extensions. I use my extensions. I maintain free and paid extensions. I'm here to tell you - Extensions = RISK. Always. And forever.

Having reiterated that - my comment was more to try to raise awareness and lessen the impact of false BUG spamming at FGU because someone has not turned off their extensions when using TEST server for this particularly risky update to them. And in a much more subtle way than say the update that broke all extensions. Because having something spit out a big ERROR message and cease to work is pretty obvious.

But having something spit out no error messages, and simply not support some underlying core code that makes something - not quite work as it should - is way more subtle and dangerous type of thing. So, just saying. Beware. And do what I said when testing. IMHO

I agree, for an example would be my extension for spells, because this changes the wording of the generated effects, if you turn off the extension that changed wording will still remain on the character and hence might then cause issues in the raw ruleset non knowing what to do with it. ( While I try and keep the generation on the end of the line, people could edit that... as at end of line the ruleset just tends to stop processing what is left when it finds a first item it does not know.. )

[deer_buster]

Yeah, but I think the capital risk and saying it is "dangerous" is a tad over the top... Nobody is going to die because an extension caused an error or an invalid value, because none of this is running, say, a heart monitor...and so isn't overseen by a governmental organization like the FDA. People need to CTFO and remember this is a virtual table top tool for Roleplaying and remember the first step of any bug report response is "Disable your extensions and check if you still have a problem. If yes, please post the steps to reproduce the problem. If no, try your extensions 1 by 1 until you find the problem extension, and then contact the extension developer.".

[deer_buster]

Might be more appropriate to say "Extensions are risky to your gaming experience - if you experience issues, disable the ones that don't work and tell the extension developer", or "Turn off all extensions that you haven't tested after an update before you start a gaming session" or both

[SilentRuin]

Yeah, but I think the capital risk and saying it is "dangerous" is a tad over the top... Nobody is going to die because an extension caused an error or an invalid value, because none of this is running, say, a heart monitor...and so isn't overseen by a governmental organization like the FDA. People need to CTFO and remember this is a virtual table top tool for Roleplaying and remember the first step of any bug report response is "Disable your extensions and check if you still have a problem. If yes, please post the steps to reproduce the problem. If no, try your extensions 1 by 1 until you find the problem extension, and then contact the extension developer.".

Are you implying that use of the word "dangerous" only applies to life and death?

Look, we may be different generations or something that gets lost in translation, but dangerous is used to mean "it could cause a problem" also.

And users wasting the limited resources of SW dev's time by tracking down false extension caused bugs because people have not turned off all their extensions before testing something in TEST server (context) - like the new lighting stuff coming up (context) - can be... wait for it....

Dangerous.

Now I admit this may be more appropriate in the other thread for that particular warning - and not entirely sure how I got into this one with this conversation - but likely it was my fault in not knowing where I was replying. But gist is - Extensions = RISK. And can be... wait for it...

Dangerous.

[deer_buster]

Yeah, probably different generations. Mine isn't so butt-hurt at criticism :)

[deer_buster]

Are you implying that use of the word "dangerous" only applies to life and death?

Yeah, kind of the definition that it applies to life and limb...look it up https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dangerous
(https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dangerous)
I'll save you the time and effort



dan·​ger·​ous | \ ˈdān-jə-rəs

(https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dangerous?pronunciation&lang=en_us&dir=d&file=danger02) ; ˈdān-jərs, -zhrəs \


Definition of dangerous



1 : involving possible injury, pain, harm, or loss : characterized by danger (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/danger#h1) (e.g. a dangerous job)


2 : able or likely to inflict injury or harm (e.g. a dangerous man)

[Jiminimonka]

Yeah, kind of the definition that it applies to life and limb...look it up https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dangerous
(https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dangerous)
I'll save you the time and effort

LOL

This is not meant to be an argument about semantics - and there is a risk of loss with extensions, they could potential break the campaign.xml file and lose your whole 5 years campaign.

[LordEntrails]

Enough.

Arguing about definitions of words and their connotations is pedantic at best.

[SilentRuin]

LOL

This is not meant to be an argument about semantics - and there is a risk of loss with extensions, they could potential break the campaign.xml file and lose your whole 5 years campaign.

Yeah I'm done here - this is getting bizarre :)

Oh and tell them they forgot one ;)

Dangerous:
likely to cause problems or to have adverse consequences.
"it is dangerous to underestimate an enemy"