Have I got the 5e Spell action economy right?

[Ludd_G]

Hi,

I've always had a real blind-spot for the action economy as it relates to Spell casting, so I've put this table together for me and to share with my players and just wondered if I've got it right? (as I said it's a blind-spot for me!)

This table excludes any additional situations with, for example, Action Surge or Quickening, as I just need to get the basics nail down to start with. Thoughts?

S = Level Spell; C = Cantrip; RS = Reaction Spell



- Action ------- Bonus A ---- RS on Your Turn ---- RS on Others’ Turn -

Cast Spell ----- No S or C ----- Yes -------------------- Yes
Cast Cantrip -- Yes S or C ----- No --------------------- Yes
Cast Nothing -- Yes S or C ----- No -------------------- Yes



- Bonus A ----- Action ------- RS on Your Turn ---- RS on Others’ Turn -

Cast Spell ----- No S Yes C ------ No ---------------- Yes
Cast Cantrip --- No S Yes C ----- No ----------------- Yes
Cast Nothing -- Yes S Yes C ----- Yes ---------------- Yes


Cheers,

Simon

Ok, so the formatting of the table hasn't survived and I'm not sure how to get it to display as intended... *sigh* I think that's the best I can make it, sorry for the confusion...

42079

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42079

[Zacchaeus]

I can't really follow what is going on with your table at all, sorry.

Basically a spell (whether a cantrip or a spell) is either cast as an action or a bonus action. If you cast a spell as a bonus action you can't cast another spell (unless it's a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action) in the same turn. If a spell can be cast as a reaction the spell description will tell you under what circumstances you can cast it.

[LordEntrails]

Can you paste an image of your table formatted correctly?

[Ludd_G]

42044

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42044


Sorry, I couldn't work out how to paste the image within the message.


I'm also going to add a third part which relates to if they cast a reaction spell first and how that effects their options on their turn.

(As if by magic! Thank you, Damned! :o )

[Zacchaeus]

I think you may be misunderstanding how reactions work. A reaction is something which takes place in response to something that happens to or around the character. It isn’t part of the character’s normal action so during their turn a character won’t ever be reacting. During a player’s turn they can take an action and a bonus action. During their turn the character can cast a spell either as a bonus action or as their action depending on the casting time of the spell. During another player’s turn or an enemy turn they can take a reaction to cast a spell that can be specifically cast as a reaction spell (and provided the conditions for taking a reaction are met). For example Shield is a reaction spell, it can only be cast as a reaction. It can’t be cast during the player’s turn, it can only be cast during someone else’s turn.

So your spell economy (and I’m not entirely sure what that means) is that you can cast a spell during your turn (and under very specific conditions cast two spells) and during someone else’s turn you can cast a spell as a reaction if you have such a spell prepared. Since you can only have one reaction you can only do this once in any one round.

[Ludd_G]

I think there are some instances where you could be reacting to an even when it's still your turn? Triggering a trap or trigger an AoO against you, then cast Shield for instance?

Also as Reactions are replenished on your Turn, it is possible, within the same Round, that you could cast 2 Reaction spells, one before your Turn (if it hasn't been used on the previous Round after your Turn was complete) and one on or after your Turn.

But, if you have cast a Spell as your Bonus Action this could, depending on how you read the RAW or RAI (and I know this is an ongoing debate), prevent you from casting, for example, Shield during your Turn.

[spoofer]

The top line of the upper table should be:
Cast spell No S Yes C Yes Yes

You can cast a cantrip as a bonus action and cast a spell as an action both in the same turn. The cantrip must have a casting time of bonus action, or you must use an ability to make the casting time a bonus action.

[Ludd_G]

I'm not sure about that, as doesn't the restriction state that if you cast any Spell or Cantrip as your bonus Action (as a Cantrip is a Spell. On my table I've just used Spell to indicate a spell that uses a spellslot, to seperate it from a Cantrip for readability) the only other Spell you can cast on your Action is a Cantrip?

[Zacchaeus]

Yes, you are correct, you can take a reaction during your turn if you triggered a trap whilst moving. But once you take a reaction you don’t get another one until the start of your next turn - according to the PHB. The important thing I think is not to over think it which I think you might be doing. A reaction is basically something that does not affect your normal actions. Whether you take a reaction or not you still get your action and bonus action.

[Zacchaeus]

The top line of the upper table should be:
Cast spell No S Yes C Yes Yes

You can cast a cantrip as a bonus action and cast a spell as an action both in the same turn. The cantrip must have a casting time of bonus action, or you must use an ability to make the casting time a bonus action.

It’s the other way around. If you cast a spell with a casting time of a bonus action you can cast a cantrip as your action provided it has a casting time of an action.

[Ludd_G]

Ah, see that where I'm seeing the debate, as to whether the casting of a Spell as a Bonus Action would then restrict you casting Reaction during your Turn, as that potentially breaks the rule with regards casting a Spell after having already cast one as a Bonus Action. It's because of these ambiguities that I'd like to lock it down to a specific set of rules, to save at the table confusion and argument.

The wording of the rule "You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a Casting Time of 1 action" does read to me that that resrtiction would also prevent you casting a Reaction Spell on your turn. That reading of the rule is reflected in my table.

And by the same token, if you were to cast a Reaction Spell first in your Turn (you moved, triggered an AoO, cast Reaction Shield) you are then prevented from casting a Cantrip/Spell as a Bonus Action for that turn. But you could still cast a Cantrip/Spell as an Action.

[Ludd_G]

But once you take a reaction you don’t get another one until the start of your next turn - according to the PHB.

Which is true, but I was stating that it is possible to use 2 Reactions in one Round. For example: say you are 3rd on the CT with 4 other NPCs (2 before you, 2 after), after your Turn you have an available Reaction, right the way through until your Turn in the next round, which means, as long as you didn't use it on your Turn or turns 4 or 5 of the previous Round, you could use that Reaction in this round on Turns 1 or 2, your Reaction then replenishes on your Turn (3) which you could then use on Turn 3, 4 or 5 of the this same round, so allowing for 2 Reactions in same round.

[spoofer]

Hmmm... It is indeed confusing. You have made me think about this. Thank you for that.
Here is a different approach you could try. Ask yourself these three questions.

1. How do the authors of the rules interpret the rules?

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1151287969312985089?lang=en

2. What do others think? (Which is what you are asking here.) Googling also produces a ton of hits.

And finally, the most important for me personally...

3. What is fun for you and your group?

For me, I really enjoy simplicity, even at the expense of RAW sometimes. Others want to opposite. So I play that you can cast two spells as long as one of them is using your bonus action and as long as one of them is a cantrip. Beyond that, I do not worry about it.

BTW, that two table image is really good. It is very easy to use. That is a great idea. I am going to borrow that image and tweak it so that it fits the way we play. Thanks for sharing!!!

[Zacchaeus]

Ah, see that where I'm seeing the debate, as to whether the casting of a Spell as a Bonus Action would then restrict you casting Reaction during your Turn, as that potentially breaks the rule with regards casting a Spell after having already cast one as a Bonus Action. It's because of these ambiguities that I'd like to lock it down to a specific set of rules, to save at the table confusion and argument.

The wording of the rule "You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a Casting Time of 1 action" does read to me that that resrtiction would also prevent you casting a Reaction Spell on your turn. That reading of the rule is reflected in my table.

And by the same token, if you were to cast a Reaction Spell first in your Turn (you moved, triggered an AoO, cast Reaction Shield) you are then prevented from casting a Cantrip/Spell as a Bonus Action for that turn. But you could still cast a Cantrip/Spell as an Action.

No, I don’t think so. Casting a spell as a reaction is totally separate from your action and bonus action. A reaction is a thing which is neither your action or bonus action. So it is perfectly possible to cast a reaction during movement in response to setting off a trap, and then still have your bonus and action. So technically under such circumstances you could cast three spells during your turn. Using your reaction does not use up either your action or bonus action. The same thing applies to any class. A rogue does not lose their ability to use their bonus action to run away or their action to make an attack because they used their reaction to dodge an incoming attack.

Again I don’t think this is something to get too concerned about.

[Zacchaeus]

Which is true, but I was stating that it is possible to use 2 Reactions in one Round. For example: say you are 3rd on the CT with 4 other NPCs (2 before you, 2 after), after your Turn you have an available Reaction, right the way through until your Turn in the next round, which means, as long as you didn't use it on your Turn or turns 4 or 5 of the previous Round, you could use that Reaction in this round on Turns 1 or 2, your Reaction then replenishes on your Turn (3) which you could then use on Turn 3, 4 or 5 of the this same round, so allowing for 2 Reactions in same round.

Ok, you’ve convinced me that you can have two reactions in the same round. I’ve never seen it happen but certainly possible in the scenario you describe.

[MasterJena]

This short paragraph is more complex than the whole chapter lol

1: Casted a bonus action spell? This turn you're restricted to cast a cantrip with a casting time of one action, if you choose to cast a spell with your action. INCLUDES REACTION SPELLS. NO SHIELD/COUNTERSPELL THIS TURN.
2: Casted something other than a cantrip with a casting time of one action? You cannot cast a spell with your bonus action this turn. EVEN WITH THE QUICKENED SPELL METAMAGIC.

It goes both ways.

[Ludd_G]

That's nice and succinct, good work! And it does fit with what I laid out on my table, thank you.

[GavinRuneblade]

This short paragraph is more complex than the whole chapter lol

1: Casted a bonus action spell? This turn you're restricted to cast a cantrip with a casting time of one action, if you choose to cast a spell with your action. INCLUDES REACTION SPELLS. NO SHIELD/COUNTERSPELL THIS TURN.
2: Casted something other than a cantrip with a casting time of one action? You cannot cast a spell with your bonus action this turn. EVEN WITH THE QUICKENED SPELL METAMAGIC.

It goes both ways.

This is correct, but there is an exception: Action Surge. And now I'm going to spoil this wonderful simple thing with complexity, lol. Sorry. Link to sage advice compendium: https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf


Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn?
There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn. If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.

Does the rule on casting a bonus action spell apply when you take a bonus action granted by a spell?
The rule on casting a spell as a bonus action (see PH, 202) applies only on the turn you cast the spell. For example, spiritual weapon can be cast as a bonus action, and it lasts for 1 minute. On the turn you cast it, you can’t cast another spell before or after it, unless that spell is a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. Until spiritual weapon ends, it gives you the option of controlling its spectral weapon as a bonus action. That bonus action does not involve casting a spell, despite the fact that it’s granted by a spell, so you can control the weapon and cast whatever spell you like on the same turn.

Can you cast a reaction spell on your turn?
You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball.

And to reinforce MasterJena's point about counterspells this sage advice clarifies the quote above: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/06/10/bonus-action-spell-reaction-spell/

So, not counting the weirdness of a Samurai taking a whole extra turn, In one Round you can cast a maximum of 5 spells:
1. In the round before your turn you can use your reaction to counterspell or shield or whatever
2. On your turn your reaction recharges but we won't use it on your turn. Instead you use your bonus action to cast misty step or healing word or a quickened fireball
3. On your turn you use your action to cast a cantrip
4. On your turn you action surge and cast another cantrip
5. In the same round, but after your turn, you can use your reaction to cast a spell

That is one round, but uses three turns (yours and two other character's). Note that this same thing works for rogues and sneak attack too. They can use it three times in a round (or two per round if using it every round via a reaction) so long as it is never more than once per turn. Citation here: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/18/sneak-once-per-turn/

If you don't want to be limited to cantrips the limit is four removing the bonus action allows you to use both actions with normal spells like dual fireballs in one turn.

You can also ready an action to cast a spell to get a stronger spell with your reaction, however that means you're not casting in the round you ready it, and if you don't use it you lose the slot. So high risk option.

[Ludd_G]

I'm not sure I agree about the Ready Spell Action allowing you to bypass the Bonus Spell/Cantrip restriction, if that's what you meant?

I'm sure I read (I think it was a Sage Advice entry but can't find it) that the choice of Spell is determined when you ready it not when you release it, so even though the spell would be released not on your turn, it is still restricted to only being a Cantrip if a Spell/Cantrip has been/will be cast on your turn.

[LordEntrails]

I'm not sure I agree about the Ready Spell Action allowing you to bypass the Bonus Spell/Cantrip restriction, if that's what you meant?

I'm sure I read (I think it was a Sage Advice entry but can't find it) that the choice of Spell is determined when you ready it not when you release it, so even though the spell would be released not on your turn, it is still restricted to only being a Cantrip if a Spell/Cantrip has been/will be cast on your turn.
Gavin's 5 spell example does not use a readied action. You are right about readying an action though.

[Ludd_G]

"You can also ready an action to cast a spell to get a stronger spell with your reaction, however that means you're not casting in the round you ready it, and if you don't use it you lose the slot. So high risk option."

This was the bit that I was wondering about. Thanks for the confirmation of my hazy memories with regards Ready Spells!

I must say I'm glad I started this thread as it's really helped me work though some of the nuances that aren't very clear in the rules text, so thank you all! :D

[Ludd_G]

So, I've tweaked the table a little, to take into account Action Surge and the fact that whether you choose to cast a Cantrip or Spell affects if you can cast a Reaction Spell on your turn. I think it makes sense, although it many be a little more complex on first look, and will definitely be an aid for me explaining options to my newer spell casters.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42079

[GavinRuneblade]

I'm not sure I agree about the Ready Spell Action allowing you to bypass the Bonus Spell/Cantrip restriction, if that's what you meant?

I'm sure I read (I think it was a Sage Advice entry but can't find it) that the choice of Spell is determined when you ready it not when you release it, so even though the spell would be released not on your turn, it is still restricted to only being a Cantrip if a Spell/Cantrip has been/will be cast on your turn.

I didn't mean bypass the cantrip limit, I wasn't clear with "stronger spell" but I meant stronger than counterspell or shield or other options normally limited to reactions. By using the ready an action you can ready any spell at all, even meteor swarm, on one turn, then cast it with your reaction when the trigger situation appears. This would then replace the step 1 in my example. The most common use for this strategy is when the party has a moment to prepare before starting a fight, such as "we know there's guards on the other side of this door, I'm going to kick it in and you guys ready actions to hit them before they can act". Everyone readies an action and the chosen person forces the door. On that person's turn everyone uses their reactions to fire arrows, lob fireballs, etc. On that acting person's turn. Then in the same round but on their turns they still get their full set of actions. Much stronger than just counterspell or shield or absorb elements.

And again, you are correct it cannot bypass the limit of cantrips only. Which I never said it could, but I was ambiguous on what I meant.

[Ludd_G]

Ah, yes, as I suspected, I did indeed misinterpret your meaning! My bad! But also good as it gave me another reason to go over my understanding of the RAW and RAI, which helped me organise my thoughts and tighten up my table, so thank you for that!

As with everyone else, your input has been gratefully received and really helpful. Cheers! :D

Simon

[Milmoor]

I didn't mean bypass the cantrip limit, I wasn't clear with "stronger spell" but I meant stronger than counterspell or shield or other options normally limited to reactions. By using the ready an action you can ready any spell at all, even meteor swarm, on one turn, then cast it with your reaction when the trigger situation appears. This would then replace the step 1 in my example. The most common use for this strategy is when the party has a moment to prepare before starting a fight, such as "we know there's guards on the other side of this door, I'm going to kick it in and you guys ready actions to hit them before they can act". Everyone readies an action and the chosen person forces the door. On that person's turn everyone uses their reactions to fire arrows, lob fireballs, etc. On that acting person's turn. Then in the same round but on their turns they still get their full set of actions. Much stronger than just counterspell or shield or absorb elements.

And again, you are correct it cannot bypass the limit of cantrips only. Which I never said it could, but I was ambiguous on what I meant.

I used to play it like that, since that feels most natural at first. But I found out officially it doesn't work like that. Combat starts with announcing: "I'll kick the door in". Initiative is rolled, and those who are surprised can't act or move. They can react after their turn. Those on your team who are faster than the kicker will have to ready to be able to do something offensive like lobbing a fireball. There is no surprise round of freely chopping up the guards. They "just" can't act. If your party is slow, it could be that some of the guard can defend with a Shield spell or even do an Attack of Opportunity if you try to run past them. You can't Ready first round, and start combat in the second. So you can't have both a readied action and a normal action in the first round of combat. If you do try, the guards won't be surprised anymore (since all will have had their turn in turn 1) and will be able to act in turn 2. Maybe even barricade the door before it's kicked in.

More info here:
https://dmsworkshop.com/2018/07/13/things-you-didnt-know-about-dd-5e-the-surprise-round/
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/150904/is-there-a-surprise-round
https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium.pdf, search for surprise

[GavinRuneblade]

I used to play it like that, since that feels most natural at first. But I found out officially it doesn't work like that. Combat starts with announcing: "I'll kick the door in". Initiative is rolled, and those who are surprised can't act or move. They can react after their turn. Those on your team who are faster than the kicker will have to ready to be able to do something offensive like lobbing a fireball. There is no surprise round of freely chopping up the guards. They "just" can't act. If your party is slow, it could be that some of the guard can defend with a Shield spell or even do an Attack of Opportunity if you try to run past them. You can't Ready first round, and start combat in the second. So you can't have both a readied action and a normal action in the first round of combat. If you do try, the guards won't be surprised anymore (since all will have had their turn in turn 1) and will be able to act in turn 2. Maybe even barricade the door before it's kicked in.

More info here:
https://dmsworkshop.com/2018/07/13/things-you-didnt-know-about-dd-5e-the-surprise-round/
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/150904/is-there-a-surprise-round
https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium.pdf, search for surprise

You're not quite understanding what I've said. I'm aware of how surprise works. The fact is surprise doesn't matter in my example, which is why I set up the specific one that I did.

RAW the DM can as for the party to roll init when the PCs announce the door is being kicked open, or after the door is kicked open, and may or may not let the party pre-cast bless, etc. It is not mandatory that the DM call for init after the door is open. In the first case anyone who beats the door kicker could try to stop them from kicking it open, take an action, get setup, ready a spell whatever. After, it depends if the mage beats the door kicker. If so nova immediately. If not, nova on round 2. Either way, enemy surprise doesn't matter. If the DM lets them pre-cast then you can pre-cast and ready. Again, surprise doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is if the DM allows the party to get ready before the door is kicked open or not.

Here is the literal worst case scenario, no pre-casting, init rolled after the door is open, enemy not surprised and gets good rolls the mage is dead last.

round 1: everyone acts no one casts a spell or triggers the mage's reaction.
Mage can either take my noted actions 2-5 or setup for round 2. Taking 2-5 might look like this:
2. misty step
3. firebolt cantrip
4. quickened firebolt cantrip
5. reaction using shield or absorb elements or counterspell before the mage's next turn.

Or Mage can setup round 2 by readying a fireball and moving, maybe using a bonus action for something other than a spell if they have those options.

Round 2 goes:
1. reaction: cast readied fireball
2 - 5 as above

Either way, the enemy being surprised doesn't matter, you can still do it. when you roll initiative doesn't matter, you can still do it. It just is nova on round 1 or nova on round 2 and that is the player's choice.

Most DM's, given my example with the PCs ambushing known enemies who aren't aware of them, would allow either pre-casting or taking an action before the door is opened. But even if not, it still works.

[Milmoor]

Ok, I get it now. I misunderstood your sequencing.

"I'm going to kick it in and you guys ready actions to hit them before they can act" will translate to a ready on the trigger 'the door is kicked in'. The 'before they can act' is a consequence, not a cause.