Just got a mail from DMsG telling me they are pulling all extensions for sale out

[SilentRuin]

WOTC is evidently making DMsG take out all extensions for sale in DMsG. Just received a mail about it after I posted my new extensions and it went live for 10 minutes - 3 sales - then POW - deactivated with a mail telling me no more extensions for sale at DMsG.

Evidently smiteworks only has a license to sell .mod files not .ext files there.

From DMsG:


Unfortunately your title has been deactivated as Wizards of the Coast is cracking down on us for allowing the publishing of extensions for Fantasy Grounds.
The only Fantasy Grounds content WotC is allowing DMsGuild to publish is Modules (.mod files).
We are currently in the process of pulling titles that are selling extensions for Fantasy Grounds but that process can take a while so I also have to catch titles that are newly published as well.
Apologies for the inconvenience.

And a further clarification to me:


The partnership that Smiteworks has with Wizards of the Coast only covers Modules for Fantasy Grounds and not extensions.

We have to do what Wizards of the Coast asks of us regarding content on DMsGuild.

So while not all my extensions have disappeared yet - sounds like they are in process of clearing them all out.

[DM_BK]

Ouch but it sounds like a good opportunity for SW to step in make some coin, solve the problem for people on DMsG, and help with the issue of keeping extensions up to date all at once.

Could really turn a bad thing into a win for everyone.

[SilentRuin]

Ouch but it sounds like a good opportunity for SW to step in make some coin, solve the problem for people on DMsG, and help with the issue of keeping extensions up to date all at once.

Could really turn a bad thing into a win for everyone.

Fortunately, it does not effect my use of my extensions for me - that's what I wrote them for after all. I'm just going to wait for the dust to settle and then see what happens. For sure most won't notice until they reach their files :)

[wmljohn]

What the living F?

[deer_buster]

"Dear paying customer, sorry that you purchased something that you no longer have access to. Too bad, so sad."

[deer_buster]

Speaking of, are they no longer available to download from your library?

[SilentRuin]

"Dear paying customer, sorry that you purchased something that you no longer have access to. Too bad, so sad."

I'm sure these type of things will just move some place else. Wait for the dust to settle - as far as I know I'm the ONLY one effected by this policy so far as I just posted a new extension hours ago. My old ones were still out there last I looked. Matter of time according to DMsG though.

[SilentRuin]

Speaking of, are they no longer available to download from your library?

The new one was deactivated after about 10 minutes and 3 sales. Then I got the mail. So if by library - the pages is still there - its just not public - meaning deactivated by DMsG as no public option available for it now.

[Grimlore]

Speaking of, are they no longer available to download from your library?

If you've already purchased an extension on the DMsGuild, you should still be able to access it from your Library - but new sales will not be permitted. However, this is all uncharted territory with no prior warning from WotC or Smiteworks, so no one really knows for sure.

[mattekure]

Ouch, this sucks. thanks for the heads up.

[Remedeez]

I don't write extensions, just mods, but I use DOZENS of exts from DMsGuild.
This is maddening, saddening, disheartening, to say the least!
Because of their exclusivity agreements, doesnt this also mean once DMsGuild cancels all the extensions, that they are no longer allowed to be posted elsewhere, like here on the forums for those who might choose to make them free after this debacle?
Anyway, I'm trying to get folks on the Twitter sphere aware and talking about this issue. Sadly, lots of DMsGuild authors aren't involved much with the FG community, but I'm hoping if we all keep this topic in the mind's eye of the community, hopefully it doesn't just get brushed aside and forgotten about.

I have so much more I want to say. I'm angry and sad and riled up about this y'all!
https://twitter.com/Remedeezy/status/1333510100884000770?s=19

[wmljohn]

I had just added this ext to my wish list to come back and purchase it later. Sooo pissed about it right now. The extension looked awesome.

[SilentRuin]

I don't write extensions, just mods, but I use DOZENS of exts from DMsGuild.
This is maddening, saddening, disheartening, to say the least!
Because of their exclusivity agreements, doesnt this also mean once DMsGuild cancels all the extensions, that they are no longer allowed to be posted elsewhere, like here on the forums for those who might choose to make them free after this debacle?
Anyway, I'm trying to get folks on the Twitter sphere aware and talking about this issue. Sadly, lots of DMsGuild authors aren't involved much with the FG community, but I'm hoping if we all keep this topic in the mind's eye of the community, hopefully it doesn't just get brushed aside and forgotten about.

I have so much more I want to say. I'm angry and sad and riled up about this y'all!
https://twitter.com/Remedeezy/status/1333510100884000770?s=19

There is no way they can prevent anyone from posting them for free IMHO. WOTC does not own FG.

For sure the one free one I maintain for the community will continue to be maintained. And I'm sure something will be figured out for the current paid extensions in DMsG. May take a bit of time - but it will happen I'm sure. Also, IMHO.

[Remedeez]

There is no way they can prevent anyone from posting them for free IMHO. WOTC does not own FG.

For sure the one free one I maintain for the community will continue to be maintained. And I'm sure something will be figured out for the current paid extensions in DMsG. May take a bit of time - but it will happen I'm sure. Also, IMHO.

I'm talking about extensions that get pulled from DMsGuild. Their policy is that once you publish something on DMsGuild, it can NEVER be published anywhere else.

[mattekure]

There is no way they can prevent anyone from posting them for free IMHO. WOTC does not own FG.

For sure the one free one I maintain for the community will continue to be maintained. And I'm sure something will be figured out for the current paid extensions in DMsG. May take a bit of time - but it will happen I'm sure. Also, IMHO.

Please respond to their email and see what they say about releasing products they are banning for free elsewhere. I'd like to know their official stance on it as I have a bunch of extensions there as well. But I have not gotten an email yet.

[celestian]

Really would like to see the extension manager that was discussed in the past implemented in FGU proper. Add a marketplace for such things and call it done and we can stop having to look at forum posts for extension updates as well.


There is no way they can prevent anyone from posting them for free IMHO. WOTC does not own FG.

For sure the one free one I maintain for the community will continue to be maintained. And I'm sure something will be figured out for the current paid extensions in DMsG. May take a bit of time - but it will happen I'm sure. Also, IMHO.

My understanding was they "owned" that content once you posted there and you couldn't post it anywhere else?

[SilentRuin]

Please respond to their email and see what they say about releasing products they are banning for free elsewhere. I'd like to know their official stance on it as I have a bunch of extensions there as well. But I have not gotten an email yet.

I've asked.

[Remedeez]

Really would like to see the extension manager that was discussed in the past implemented in FGU proper. Add a marketplace for such things and call it done and we can stop having to look at forum posts for extension updates as well.



My understanding was they "owned" that content once you posted there and you couldn't post it anywhere else?

This is pretty much correct. WHENEVER a person uploads a product to the DMsGuild, they must click "I agree" to the Community Content Agreement, which spells out DMsGuild's exclusivity policy on the product that person uploads.

Screenshot attached for clarity:
41557

[SilentRuin]

This is pretty much correct. WHENEVER a person uploads a product to the DMsGuild, they must click "I agree" to the Community Content Agreement, which spells out DMsGuild's exclusivity policy on the product that person uploads.

Screenshot attached for clarity:
41557

If that holds legally for them refusing to sell that product - I'd be expecting them to be in some legal trouble. Not really worried about it. They'll clarify for sure.

[LordEntrails]

I'm actually not surprised. I know everyone was trying to play by the rules, but selling extensions was certainly not something the DMsG was ever set up for. There were a lot of licensing issues the CCA just didn't address with software code. But, SmiteWorks and WotC were getting commissions on it so I thought they would have approached this is a different way.


Because of their exclusivity agreements, doesnt this also mean once DMsGuild cancels all the extensions, that they are no longer allowed to be posted elsewhere, like here on the forums for those who might choose to make them free after this debacle?
IANAL, but I don't think such a ruling would be enforceable legally. Of course, who is going to sue WotC so that they can sell their FG extensions elsewhere?

Why I believe this is because their are basically rulings everywhere that state even a contract can not prevent people from making a living (i.e. why non-competes are not enforceable and that gentlemen's agreements not to hire from other companies have actually resulted in lawsuits that were one by the employees.) Since WotC doesn't have IP rights to the extensions, I don't see how they can claim you can't distribute elsewhere.

Now, SmiteWorks does have claim to the IP of the extensions (actually, the xml/LUA formatting) but they allow folks to distribute extensions here on the forums. They also allow Patreon and other monetarization of extensions with prior permission from them. I assume Doug is now aware of this issue. Give him some time to work through it on the backend before helping to come up with a solution moving forward.

[Remedeez]

I hope they will clarify, but they already protected themselves by getting any DMsGuild author to agree to an "exclusive, irrevocable" license to their works. It's all in the words.

[LordEntrails]

I hope they will clarify, but they already protected themselves by getting any DMsGuild author to agree to an "exclusive, irrevocable" license to their works. It's all in the words.
Yes, but doesn't mean it is legally binding. I've entered into contracts I knew were not legally binding, and breached them with no repercussions. Doesn't mean it applies in this case. But it does mean folks should take a few deep breaths and wait. The world is not going to collapse in the next few weeks while this gets resolved. At worse it means that people using extensions might not be able to update FGU until it is resolved.

[Remedeez]

Yes, but doesn't mean it is legally binding. I've entered into contracts I knew were not legally binding, and breached them with no repercussions. Doesn't mean it applies in this case. But it does mean folks should take a few deep breaths and wait. The world is not going to collapse in the next few weeks while this gets resolved. At worse it means that people using extensions might not be able to update FGU until it is resolved.

Right, sorry I replied earlier to SilentRuin then your message came before mine. I'm certainly not saying the world will collapse, just that I'm disappointed, sad, angry. Extension sales on DMsGuild hold the TOP SALES for VTT category. Not adventures, not splat content. Extensions. Its just my opinion that DMsGuild/OBS is losing out an OBVIOUSLY great source of sales by stopping this. And it seems so... out-of-the-blue. They were fine all this time and now suddenly they are not?

Not to mention, what about folks who see this as "now I must put my extension on the forums" and previous purchasers of said extension feel like they got the bad end when they PAID for an extension that is now becoming free on the forums, out of necessity. Its just all such a mess. That's all. I'm just here to state my opinion on this issue. It is an issue. That's all.

[rob2e]

****. <-- my blocked profanity. Not the word you THINK it is. Has an s, and a t, there's an i and an h in there.

[SilentRuin]

Right, sorry I replied earlier to SilentRuin then your message came before mine. I'm certainly not saying the world will collapse, just that I'm disappointed, sad, angry. Extension sales on DMsGuild hold the TOP SALES for VTT category. Not adventures, not splat content. Extensions. Its just my opinion that DMsGuild/OBS is losing out an OBVIOUSLY great source of sales by stopping this. And it seems so... out-of-the-blue. They were fine all this time and now suddenly they are not?

Not to mention, what about folks who see this as "now I must put my extension on the forums" and previous purchasers of said extension feel like they got the bad end when they PAID for an extension that is now becoming free on the forums, out of necessity. Its just all such a mess. That's all. I'm just here to state my opinion on this issue. It is an issue. That's all.

Well technically the only other option is DTRPG - which I'm also trying to get clarification on. Less money for creator but you can only do what you can do I suppose. Providing it makes past their approval process - so I'm told.

[Remedeez]

Well technically the only other option is DTRPG - which I'm also trying to get clarification on. Less money for creator but you can only do what you can do I suppose. Providing it makes past their approval process - so I'm told.

I believe you have to get a license with Smiteworks to sell FG anything on DTRPG. I could be wrong though.

[LordEntrails]

Yep, its an issue and a mess :(

It might, just might, based on the wording from the email, be in part that WotC feels they do not have the legal right to distribute or benefit from the distribution of FG extensions. And however they became aware of this, they (might) be legally obligated to stop benefiting from it within a certain amount of time of becoming aware of the situation.

Again, IANAL :) but say I was running a pawn shop and had some regular customers who came in and pawned/sold stuff through my store and I got a percentage of that. If, and when, I became aware that those sales were illegal, I would have to put a stop to allowing them to sell those items.

I'm not saying that's the case, we just don't know. But just that a lot of times their are legal reasons companies do things and it's really not their choice either.

[SilentRuin]

I believe you have to get a license with Smiteworks to sell FG anything on DTRPG. I could be wrong though.

Yep as I'm too lazy and have recently had Grim Press do all my video/cover/text stuff - I'll be letting them handle it all if I'm forced to put it all over there. I have no intention of going to all the trouble to be the publisher with a license for something I do as a hobby. Grim Press has an agreement and have been very reasonable in everything I've asked.

[DGM]

Absolute trashy move as Fantasy Grounds is missing vital features that are required to mod into with extensions.
It is unreasonable and tbh crazy.

[SilentRuin]

Based on asking about the "sell" clause everyone is worried about (not me its not legally going to fly if they don't allow it to sell there) here is the latest response from DMsG....


We're still discussing and creating plans on how to move forward with this and the exclusivity agreement is a part of what we are talking about.

Once we have more information we will make that available.

So again, I'm not worried that my extensions will not find a new home. They will. Just a matter of time.

[damned]

The exclusivity is not enforceable if they are not allowing it for sale.
They havent bought the work from you or paid you directly to do the work.

[Laerun]

Ouch but it sounds like a good opportunity for SW to step in make some coin, solve the problem for people on DMsG, and help with the issue of keeping extensions up to date all at once.

Could really turn a bad thing into a win for everyone.

I am not sure what the solution is, but I do not know if Smiteworks wants to take on the liability of functional code outside their own program, otherwise they may as well absorb it. This is a very gray area all the way around now.

[damned]

I think that Steam has a similar marketplace for 3rd Party addons?

[SilentRuin]

I am not sure what the solution is, but I do not know if Smiteworks wants to take on the liability of functional code outside their own program, otherwise they may as well absorb it. This is a very gray area all the way around now.

To true on the liability. As I put in all of my extensions sales pages - EXTENSIONS = RISK - then explain why. Smiteworks would have to have some kind of airtight buyers agreement that they understand and take on the risks of using the extensions. Anyone can write an extension.

And anyone can break the application by doing so carelessly. Or by conflicts that cannot be avoided.

[Willot]

Just dont mention 5E ,D&D, WOTC or any of their products in your extension.

I mean how does WOTC have any rights to tell DMsG to stop selling extensions for Paizo products?

In fact why dont all you talented extension coders head over to Pathfinder 2e forums? I dont think Trenloe would say no to a bit of help over there LOL

[rob2e]

Just dont mention 5E ,D&D, WOTC or any of their products in your extension.

I mean how does WOTC have any rights to tell DMsG to stop selling extensions for Paizo products?

DMs Guild is an EXCLUSIVELY D&D 5E sales site, you cannot sell any other RPG stuff there.

[DM_BK]

Blocking selling of a code extension to a licensed VTT...I find myself thinking in some conspiracy theroies...as to why WOTC would even want to block this. The ext's don't contain copyrighted materials from their products. The why they are suddenly doing this and if they really even can do this have me puzzled. Sure DMsG is going to do what ever WOTC wants, likely with out question. I guess they have no need to give SW a heads up, they don't own DMsG but you would think WOTC or DMsG might have given them a friendly warning. Clearly the relationship between the 3 companies isn't very strong (which is also strange as they all benefit from each other). The timing is also puzzling...making moves like this during the Christmas selling season. Odd!

Is WOTC thinking about breaking away from FG? Can they? --- I know it seems like that wouldn't be something they would do but WOTC ain't always been the most reasonable company over the years.

[rob2e]

Blocking selling of a code extension to a licensed VTT...I find myself thinking in some conspiracy theroies...as to why WOTC would even want to block this. The ext's don't contain copyrighted materials from their products. The why they are suddenly doing this and if they really even can do this have me puzzled. Sure DMsG is going to do what ever WOTC wants, likely with out question. I guess they have no need to give SW a heads up, they don't own DMsG but you would think WOTC or DMsG might have given them a friendly warning. Clearly the relationship between the 3 companies isn't very strong (which is also strange as they all benefit from each other). The timing is also puzzling...making moves like this during the Christmas selling season. Odd!

Is WOTC thinking about breaking away from FG? Can they? --- I know it seems like that wouldn't be something they would do but WOTC ain't always been the most reasonable company over the years.

Part of the thinking amongst those of us talking about this on my Discord (and this is by no means official) is that Foundry VTT has some extensions that scrape D&D Beyond for the info to circumvent licensing, and because those bad actors are doing that, WotC is responding with a sweeping attitude to nerf ALL extensions. Just a guess.

[Willot]

DMs Guild is an EXCLUSIVELY D&D 5E sales site, you cannot sell any other RPG stuff there.

Oh crap thats right, Im thinking of DrivethruRPG

[SilentRuin]

Part of the thinking amongst those of us talking about this on my Discord (and this is by no means official) is that Foundry VTT has some extensions that scrape D&D Beyond for the info to circumvent licensing, and because those bad actors are doing that, WotC is responding with a sweeping attitude to nerf ALL extensions. Just a guess.

Sounds like something that would be put in a .mod file (data that was scraped) not something sold as an .ext - but what do I know.

Nothing! I know Nothing! (Sgt. Shultz - hogan's heroes)

Another excellent reason for me to continue to just stick to pure code architecture changes with no data.

[rob2e]

Nothing! I know Nothing! (Sgt. Shultz - hogan's heroes)

Bwahahahahahahahaha!

[Jiminimonka]

"Dear paying customer, sorry that you purchased something that you no longer have access to. Too bad, so sad."

The stuff you purchased already will still be in your library.

EDIT: No - looks like they are all gone. Just .mod and PDF files left.

EDIT: No - the .ext files are still there! LOL

[ddavison]

Hey folks,

Sorry I didn't have a chance to chime in earlier. I got pulled away for some person items this afternoon and I'm just now getting back to my desk.

What prompted this:
Story Templates Pro was developed by a community developer and it looked quite nice. We (SmiteWorks) started talking with the developer about the potential of us just buying the rights to include this automatically for all FG users. When we found out that it was already published at DMsGuild, we had to back out from the offer due to licensing constraints at DMsG. The STP extension author then reached out to DMG and asked if they could get permission to remove it from DMG in order to renew talks with us about incorporating it within FG. DMG ran it up the flag-pole to WOTC to seek permission for this one product. WOTC asked us what extensions were and we said that they were basically extra code that enhances functionality within Fantasy Grounds, but which are often paired with content or used to empower content. We told them that we would be interested in buying this from the author if WOTC would be willing to waive their rights for it on DMsGuild. WOTC spoke internally about it and decided that that sort of content (i.e. code and not content) should have never been a part of DMG to begin with. They asked DMG to remove that content for the Story Template Pro and said that we would be free to work out whatever deal we had in mind with that author. They further requested the other changes at DMG on other content.

As far as I know, the DMsGuild agreement is terminated and restrictions from that agreement are no longer in force. The bad part is that SmiteWorks as a general rule does not allow anyone to publish content for Fantasy Grounds without either A) a Publisher Agreement or B) DMsGuild agreement. Both of these remain for .mod style content, but .ext files are not typically something we offered in A and they are no longer supported in B. This is likely going to require another solution.

It's all a bit sudden and we haven't had a chance to fully react and plan for a suitable solution. The one thing we've spoken about previously was that we intended to make something called a Fantasy Grounds Forge, where creators could post their own creations (no copyright protected content) and list it for sale, for free, etc. Users could subscribe to those creations and they would get updated alongside normal FG updates. I built an early prototype and the start of a database to do this about a year ago but it's been on the back-burner. John and I spoke just an hour ago about maybe spinning up Steven Melton (our network and installer dev) to finish this out and bring it to production level. If we did that, we would most likely have the same 50% royalty for any content published through that interface.

We would need to divert resources over to this and that means it will cost us to do this. It's something I've kind of wanted to have in place for a while, though, so we are really just moving it up in the schedule to fill a need. It's kind of a crappy way to have it roll out, but on the plus side I think the final result will be a much smoother experience for creators and users.

[Remedeez]

I can't wait to see what you have in store, Doug. Thanks for clarifying what happened.

[LordEntrails]

Thank you for the insight Doug, that was very nice of you to include that level of detail.

Even though I use very few extensions, and pay for fewer, I do see this as a valuable addition to the community. Not my place to say it's higher or lower priority than anything else, but I do agree it's important. Good luck juggling!

[Ulric]

As a paying customer of SW and several Ext creators I too appreciate Doug's openness with the community. I think this unexpected event may turn out to be an improvement to the current end user problem of keeping extensions updated. As a small business owner in an unrelated industry, I greatly sympathize with everyone that will be affected by lost sales and customer confidence that may weaken future sale. I hope SW and FG community creators can find common ground and build a better marketplace GMs to enhance not only WOTC rulesets but other rulesets as well.

[similarly]

tbh, I looked over the many extensions I've bought over the last few months, and I'm not sure I see what WotC has a problem with ... unless it's that the extensions (at least the ones I have) aren't so much about D&D, and are more about FGU. It seems to me that none of the extensions (that I have anyway) are in any way infringing on ip anywhere. Does WotC really have the right to say what DMsG can and can't have? Is that their agreement?

That said, it would be a LOT easier to have all my extensions and modules in one place, though I'm unlikely to repurchase things I've already bought.

[damned]

DMsGuild is a partnership between WoTC and OBS.
It is setup purely for D&D 5E content.

[similarly]

DMsGuild is a partnership between WoTC and OBS.
It is setup purely for D&D 5E content.

Ah. That's a bit like I suspected. Unfortunate, really. It would be good to have a reliable place for FGU extensions, and there were some good extensions on DMsG.

[MrDDT]

Ah. That's a bit like I suspected. Unfortunate, really. It would be good to have a reliable place for FGU extensions, and there were some good extensions on DMsG.

Well me might end up with the best choice is that SW themselves having it coded into their game like mods are or SW's own site.

[SilentRuin]

Hey folks,

Sorry I didn't have a chance to chime in earlier. I got pulled away for some person items this afternoon and I'm just now getting back to my desk.

What prompted this:
Story Templates Pro was developed by a community developer and it looked quite nice. We (SmiteWorks) started talking with the developer about the potential of us just buying the rights to include this automatically for all FG users. When we found out that it was already published at DMsGuild, we had to back out from the offer due to licensing constraints at DMsG. The STP extension author then reached out to DMG and asked if they could get permission to remove it from DMG in order to renew talks with us about incorporating it within FG. DMG ran it up the flag-pole to WOTC to seek permission for this one product. WOTC asked us what extensions were and we said that they were basically extra code that enhances functionality within Fantasy Grounds, but which are often paired with content or used to empower content. We told them that we would be interested in buying this from the author if WOTC would be willing to waive their rights for it on DMsGuild. WOTC spoke internally about it and decided that that sort of content (i.e. code and not content) should have never been a part of DMG to begin with. They asked DMG to remove that content for the Story Template Pro and said that we would be free to work out whatever deal we had in mind with that author. They further requested the other changes at DMG on other content.

As far as I know, the DMsGuild agreement is terminated and restrictions from that agreement are no longer in force. The bad part is that SmiteWorks as a general rule does not allow anyone to publish content for Fantasy Grounds without either A) a Publisher Agreement or B) DMsGuild agreement. Both of these remain for .mod style content, but .ext files are not typically something we offered in A and they are no longer supported in B. This is likely going to require another solution.

It's all a bit sudden and we haven't had a chance to fully react and plan for a suitable solution. The one thing we've spoken about previously was that we intended to make something called a Fantasy Grounds Forge, where creators could post their own creations (no copyright protected content) and list it for sale, for free, etc. Users could subscribe to those creations and they would get updated alongside normal FG updates. I built an early prototype and the start of a database to do this about a year ago but it's been on the back-burner. John and I spoke just an hour ago about maybe spinning up Steven Melton (our network and installer dev) to finish this out and bring it to production level. If we did that, we would most likely have the same 50% royalty for any content published through that interface.

We would need to divert resources over to this and that means it will cost us to do this. It's something I've kind of wanted to have in place for a while, though, so we are really just moving it up in the schedule to fill a need. It's kind of a crappy way to have it roll out, but on the plus side I think the final result will be a much smoother experience for creators and users.

It seems there is a lot of confusion on the part of creators on what to do next. Do I find out if I have to move everything over to DTRPG in the hopes the comments and reviews can be saved? Do I hold out for some less drastic "kill them all" policy by WOTC? Or do I hold out for this new FG portal and if it has the ability to split royalties and other things supported by DMsG?

Honestly, I still kind of feel my new Combat Groups extension is still the ONLY one effected by all this. As they have yet to deactivate any of my other extensions.

So glad to hear FG is going to move forward on this portal for sure.

Having said that - I can't say I'm pleased with the "unknown" factor on what to do next. For sure I'm not going to punish people who have bought my extensions by putting them out for free now. I'd rather do nothing than screw over people who supported my extensions early on.

So right now - my options appear to be - wait and see if there is any more clarity from FG and DMsG, because I absolutely never expect that sort of thing out of WOTC.

[DM_BK]

Shouldn't we be entitled to a refund from DMsG? I mean I bought something and now it's gone....

[SilentRuin]

Shouldn't we be entitled to a refund from DMsG? I mean I bought something and now it's gone....

Was not aware anything is gone - only deactivated so you can't buy something new.

And if they are gone (not going to know myself) then I'm still not seeing the point as you HAVE the extension you bought. Using mine still for sure. Nothing can take them away from me once I have them.

[Unless I don't use backups. But that would be on me.]

[DM_BK]

Good point.... hard to say if we will eventually no longer be able to download them again. I didn't get a chance to buy your last one...

[SilentRuin]

Good point.... hard to say if we will eventually no longer be able to download them again. I didn't get a chance to buy your last one...

Well the weird thing was it was up only about 15 min till it went down and had 3 sales. Now it has 5. I removed it out of the bundle I had out there because there must be some kind of bug with bundles and things they nuke from under it. For sure price was there and bundle was there with all 5 of my extensions including Combat Groups. Just now deleted it out of there. But makes me wonder what kind of utter hell they are creating over there when they deactivate something and its in a bundle and still shows up listed and part of the bundle price. Seems like they could be seriously messing things up for themselves and buyers. I worry about if they kill off any others and then the bundles still act like they are out there.

This is nuts and not well done.

[Lou Ciphor]

Just posting my humble opinion so they can read all about it...
I don't understand how WoTC can shadow ban extensions to a program they do not author. If the extensions violated content, perhaps, but ones that are designed to enhance functionality of the program (not under authorship, maintenance, or control of WoTC), I just don't see it. Unless SmiteWorks was somehow stupid enough to relinquish control of their product's development to a 3rd party... ???
But I do know this... I've spent thousands of dollars on FG, including additional content, over the years. If they are going to revoke my right to access those products, then they owe me a full refund for depriving my continued use of said product(s). I don't care if 'they' ultimately = SW, DMsGuild, or WoTC. That's between them to fight out. All I know is, I legally bought a product in good faith, and I am entitled to continued use...IMHO. I accept refunds in the form of cash only, NOT "store credit" -- for the record.
This is just one more way WoTC is continuing to drive the enjoyment of the hoby into the dirt. Good luck with that. I hear PF2 is a better product than 5E, anyway...
/end rant

[ColinBuckler]

Adding in a "Forge" functionality to the mix would be a HUGE bonus. Currently it is a real pain to try and locate changes for modules and extensions.

What I would like to see regarding this functionality is:

(1) A game system and a FGC/FGU version compatibility indicator that is easy to read/understand for each entry.

(2) Inclusion of mod/extension and maybe other files in the the system.

(3) A clear/easy method of searching for entries and the ability to link to the entries (URL?) from forums.

(4) Rules covering the submission of entries, in particular what is allowed/disallowed.

(5) The ability to cover content such as D&D propriety information (mind flayers/beholders/storylines) similar in a way the DM Guild website allows. I know there is a licensing issue potentially with this - one can hope though.

(6) The ability for submitters to "gift" paid for content to nominated users. I am thinking here of purchasers of content that will now disallowed on DM Guild to be gifted to some one who has already purchased an item, or for evaluation purposes in a review.

(7) Some controls should be in place for "abandoned" content. The ability for a content developer to transfer one or more of their content to other content developers and maintenance of FGC/FGU releases.

(8) An indicator to state that you have "Forge" content that needs updating. The ability to choose to upgrade one/some/all "Forge" content manually.

A couple of downsides of the inclusion of a "Forge" I can that a lot of the free mods will become paid for entries.... will there be much free content? I can also see this being for FGU only.

[ColinBuckler]

Just posting my humble opinion so they can read all about it...
I've spent thousands of dollars on FG, including additional content, over the years. If they are going to revoke my right to access those products, then they owe me a full refund for depriving my continued use of said product(s). I don't care if 'they' ultimately = SW, DMsGuild, or WoTC. That's between them to fight out. All I know is, I legally bought a product in good faith, and I am entitled to continued use...IMHO. I accept refunds in the form of cash only, NOT "store credit" -- for the record.


I have spent a reasonable amount with DM's Guild - but I suspect that WoTC are not that worried about the content of the FG extensions - but what it could lead to with other VTT systems start using DM's Guild. As their attention has been brought to these types of content they need to nip it in the bud before it turns into something more major than a few disgruntled customers (us) especially as DM's Guild content was never licensed to house this information. Disappointed - yes I am - but better now than another couple of years down the line.


I hear PF2 is a better product than 5E, anyway...


As a owner of both content - I would really entertain a discussion about the pro's and con's between both systems. I extensively run 5E but would consider looking at PF2. I like the simplicity of 5E, but love the way PF2 uses "feats" to create the characters. Unfortunately this thread is not the place for this discussion as I would not want to hijack it from the OP. If you do want to discuss the pros/cons between 5E and PF2 we could always open another thread?

[Trenloe]

As a owner of both content - I would really entertain a discussion about the pro's and con's between both systems. I extensively run 5E but would consider looking at PF2. I like the simplicity of 5E, but love the way PF2 uses "feats" to create the characters. Unfortunately this thread is not the place for this discussion as I would not want to hijack it from the OP. If you do want to discuss the pros/cons between 5E and PF2 we could always open another thread?
Yes, please take such discussions to another thread.

[similarly]

Just posting my humble opinion so they can read all about it...
I don't understand how WoTC can shadow ban extensions to a program they do not author. If the extensions violated content, perhaps, but ones that are designed to enhance functionality of the program (not under authorship, maintenance, or control of WoTC), I just don't see it. Unless SmiteWorks was somehow stupid enough to relinquish control of their product's development to a 3rd party... ???
But I do know this... I've spent thousands of dollars on FG, including additional content, over the years. If they are going to revoke my right to access those products, then they owe me a full refund for depriving my continued use of said product(s). I don't care if 'they' ultimately = SW, DMsGuild, or WoTC. That's between them to fight out. All I know is, I legally bought a product in good faith, and I am entitled to continued use...IMHO. I accept refunds in the form of cash only, NOT "store credit" -- for the record.
This is just one more way WoTC is continuing to drive the enjoyment of the hoby into the dirt. Good luck with that. I hear PF2 is a better product than 5E, anyway...
/end rant

It sounds like maybe the "problem" might be simply that DMsGuild is for 5e content and some of the extensions are really just for fantasy grounds, and not exactly 5e. Maybe? Could be they don't have a problem with the extensions, but just with hosting them on DMsGuild. Again, Maybe?

[damned]

Just posting my humble opinion so they can read all about it...
I don't understand how WoTC can shadow ban extensions to a program they do not author. If the extensions violated content, perhaps, but ones that are designed to enhance functionality of the program (not under authorship, maintenance, or control of WoTC), I just don't see it. Unless SmiteWorks was somehow stupid enough to relinquish control of their product's development to a 3rd party... ???
But I do know this... I've spent thousands of dollars on FG, including additional content, over the years. If they are going to revoke my right to access those products, then they owe me a full refund for depriving my continued use of said product(s). I don't care if 'they' ultimately = SW, DMsGuild, or WoTC. That's between them to fight out. All I know is, I legally bought a product in good faith, and I am entitled to continued use...IMHO. I accept refunds in the form of cash only, NOT "store credit" -- for the record.
This is just one more way WoTC is continuing to drive the enjoyment of the hoby into the dirt. Good luck with that. I hear PF2 is a better product than 5E, anyway...
/end rant

Everything you bought was made available to you to download.
Most likely everything you bought can still be downloaded.
No one has taken away your rights to use anything you have bought.
They just wont sell you any new products that are primarily code vs content.

[Roach]

As I understand it, DMsG essentially is a joint initiative between WOTC and OneBookShelf to have a platform dedicated exclusively for 5E content. This does include FG modules that contain 5E specific material such as third-party adventures, tips and tricks to official adventures, map packs and similar for official adventures, new character classes and so on. Extensions for FG not only could be used for other game systems but also effectively are content specific for Fantasy Grounds, and therefore do not fall under the data that DMs Guild is supposed/allowed to offer. Therefore, DMsG, when asked by Smite Works to release the mentioned extension [because it was not 5E exclusive] could not pretend not to know that this content did not fall under the provisos of the site. By asking WOTC, the Guild passed on the buck as to whether to allow extensions, and Wizards, as one of the owners and completely unwilling to offer a platform for their competition, told them to remove the extension in question – and probably hinting that these extensions were non grata, which in turn forced the Guild to start acting the way they are now. I can understand Wizards' stance on competition using infrastructure that Wizards pays for, I can understand the Guild not wanting to poke the bear any more, all in all I am not willing to point fingers but have to say this definitely is what the Armed Forces so colorfully call a snafu. With no one really to blame :(

[ddavison]

tbh, I looked over the many extensions I've bought over the last few months, and I'm not sure I see what WotC has a problem with ... unless it's that the extensions (at least the ones I have) aren't so much about D&D, and are more about FGU. It seems to me that none of the extensions (that I have anyway) are in any way infringing on ip anywhere. Does WotC really have the right to say what DMsG can and can't have? Is that their agreement?

That said, it would be a LOT easier to have all my extensions and modules in one place, though I'm unlikely to repurchase things I've already bought.

Good point. Our solution will probably need to allow creators to gift copies to buyers who already bought it.

[damned]

Good point. Our solution will probably need to allow creators to gift copies to buyers who already bought it.

You will need OBS to share that data with you and they may not be able to (privacy) as the creators do not get access to this.
I dont even think creators on DMsGuild (unless you are on the top tier) can even send buyers a message say with a discount code.

[mattekure]

You will need OBS to share that data with you and they may not be able to (privacy) as the creators do not get access to this.
I dont even think creators on DMsGuild (unless you are on the top tier) can even send buyers a message say with a discount code.

I know that DMsGuild does not have the ability for a publisher to contact customers, but I believe thats not true across all OneBookshelf sites. DTRPG allows a publisher to contact customers, and each customer can elect which publishers they will allow messages from. DTRPG also emails you when a product is updated.

[ddavison]

You will need OBS to share that data with you and they may not be able to (privacy) as the creators do not get access to this.
I dont even think creators on DMsGuild (unless you are on the top tier) can even send buyers a message say with a discount code.

Interesting. I didn't realize this either since we get access to our sales info from our Publisher account over at OBS. Well, that is less useful but the customer may need to have some ability to send the receipt to the extension author so they know that they've already purchased it.

[Milmoor]

If DMSGuild only allows mods, sell just the mod there and make the extension dependent on the availability of that mod. Offer the extension elsewhere, for example at FG. Either the mod or the extension could even be free, since they rely on each other. Preferably they both should be able to function as stand alone product, to avoid bad blood for circumventing the rules.

Source references:
Diablobob suggested something similar on the Rob2e Discord server. Quote available on request ;).

[ssides]

Absolute trashy move as Fantasy Grounds is missing vital features that are required to mod into with extensions.
It is unreasonable and tbh crazy.

I would suggest in response to this that DMs Guild is not the only way extensions have ever been available. The community had a thriving extension component in the forums long before any of them was ever monetized...

[DGM]

It's all a bit sudden and we haven't had a chance to fully react and plan for a suitable solution. The one thing we've spoken about previously was that we intended to make something called a Fantasy Grounds Forge, where creators could post their own creations (no copyright protected content) and list it for sale, for free, etc. Users could subscribe to those creations and they would get updated alongside normal FG updates. I built an early prototype and the start of a database to do this about a year ago but it's been on the back-burner. John and I spoke just an hour ago about maybe spinning up Steven Melton (our network and installer dev) to finish this out and bring it to production level. If we did that, we would most likely have the same 50% royalty for any content published through that interface.

We would need to divert resources over to this and that means it will cost us to do this. It's something I've kind of wanted to have in place for a while, though, so we are really just moving it up in the schedule to fill a need. It's kind of a crappy way to have it roll out, but on the plus side I think the final result will be a much smoother experience for creators and users.

Thank you for clarifying, this situation is very shocking and suddenly.
I'm an avid supporter and promoter of Fantasy Grounds as the platform to use to host D&D online.

But DMsGuild extensions are of vital importance to this, there are core features and quality of life aspects missing to running with just SmiteWorks platform provided content.
There are some extremely creative and talented people out there making high quality content, I think about everyone who uses Fantasy Grounds frequently has either Grimm Press team or Rob2e's Team.
These folks and many others I've not mentioned, deserve respect, love, recognition and compensation.

We have hosted 1116 sessions between January 2018 and November 2019 on Sleeper Island.
Every session being at least 4 hours long some going up to 18 hours means that we have hosted a minimum of 4464 hours of D&D sessions on Fantasy Grounds
With 6 players per session that comes to a total of 26,784 hours committed to D&D sessions from players on Sleeper Island.

Without extension that add necessary quality of life improvements we would have looked at other platforms.

[mshall]

If WOTC doesn't want .ext on dmsguild, could they be moved to drivethrurpg? There is other compatible content there that is specifically there because it doesn't meet the criteria for dmsguild, so if the issue is keeping a clean branding of what content should reside dmsguild, perhaps the sister-site would be acceptable? The move would still be confusing but maybe there is a mechanism that exists for the migration from one OBS subsite to another that might be easier and faster than spinning up a new Smiteworks solution (still may want to do that as well, but will take time to implement and also need to resolve how to deal with those of us who have purchased a lot of extensions via dmsguild.)

[SilentRuin]

I have to wonder if Combat Groups Extension is the only thing that's been deactivated so far. Old extensions still out there for the moment. Has anyone seen anything else deactivated in DMsG? Or is it just the new stuff (mine).

Honestly, its still confusing to me and still seems like nobody (FG, DMsG, WOTC) really understand what they are going to do about all this. For sure my past post noted that bundles are a major concern to me having found the deactivated Combat Groups was still in there affecting the price and actually appeared to sell a couple. I've taken it out of that bundle - but that makes me wonder when they start deactivating other things in a bundle - what then? Am I responsible to remove them out of the bundle?

Seems rather an insane way to handle all this. Hoping for clarity from someone as I can see getting sent to DTRPG - then being told FG portal is finally out and its the place to be - and then forbidden to move due to some "Can't move once there" kind of thing as DMsG had. Hope the parties take that sort of thing into account.

They might all say not worth our time to address, your just out of luck. I can see that happening for sure.

But really, what did I do wrong? I followed the rules - was told DMsG is where sales for .ext things were done - only for 5E extensions - and none of mine actually deal with data - only software architecture changes in FGU. For sure I'm not going to do anything shady like mask my .ext as something else as I've heard being suggested. That's not me. I'll wait till the legal correct path is defined then take that one. I just have to hope I'm not screwed over for being honest. But that happens sometimes.

Price you pay. Willing to pay it.

[ddavison]

If WOTC doesn't want .ext on dmsguild, could they be moved to drivethrurpg? There is other compatible content there that is specifically there because it doesn't meet the criteria for dmsguild, so if the issue is keeping a clean branding of what content should reside dmsguild, perhaps the sister-site would be acceptable? The move would still be confusing but maybe there is a mechanism that exists for the migration from one OBS subsite to another that might be easier and faster than spinning up a new Smiteworks solution (still may want to do that as well, but will take time to implement and also need to resolve how to deal with those of us who have purchased a lot of extensions via dmsguild.)

Not without a Publisher Agreement in place between SmiteWorks and the author of the extension.

Past customers should still have access to the extensions. It is affecting sales and revenue for these extension authors, though, so we are working on a solution for this. We've diverted a resource over to the Forge project and will probably know more in a week about how long it will take to get that ready. Once we have a projected ETA, we can determine if we need to come up with any other work-arounds for people. Setting up Publisher Agreements is also a resource intensive step and it takes time to work through that if we decided to go that route. I'm leery of doing that since it also adds to my work-load and costs each quarter for payments to publishers and indie devs.

[BaneTBC]

Good point. Our solution will probably need to allow creators to gift copies to buyers who already bought it.

Very glad to see that this is already being included in the thought process. I very much appreciate what the extension developers have created and feel they definitely need to be compensated for their efforts, I would prefer to not have to pay for things multiple times (bad enough I have to do this with the WotC books).

[LordEntrails]

Some feedback on the Extension Forge. None of this are required for Minimal Viable Product, but would be high value and if considered during initial architecture may make deployment later easier.
- Ability to send complimentary copies; for reviewers and for those who previously bought elsewhere
- Ability to bundle multiple products
- Ability for extension author to set/adjust price
- Ability for extension author to set coupon/discount codes based upon quantity redeemed and/or time
- Ability for author to contact customers
- Author controlled description page for extension, or link to forum thread.
- FG compatibility (initial version, latest version)

[SilentRuin]

Some feedback on the Extension Forge. None of this are required for Minimal Viable Product, but would be high value and if considered during initial architecture may make deployment later easier.
- Ability to send complimentary copies; for reviewers and for those who previously bought elsewhere
- Ability to bundle multiple products
- Ability for extension author to set/adjust price
- Ability for extension author to set coupon/discount codes based upon quantity redeemed and/or time
- Ability for author to contact customers
- Author controlled description page for extension, or link to forum thread.
- FG compatibility (initial version, latest version)

- Ability to split the royalties.

[mattekure]

Some feedback on the Extension Forge. None of this are required for Minimal Viable Product, but would be high value and if considered during initial architecture may make deployment later easier.
- Ability to send complimentary copies; for reviewers and for those who previously bought elsewhere
- Ability to bundle multiple products
- Ability for extension author to set/adjust price
- Ability for extension author to set coupon/discount codes based upon quantity redeemed and/or time
- Ability for author to contact customers
- Author controlled description page for extension, or link to forum thread.
- FG compatibility (initial version, latest version)

Ability to bundle items together for a discount

[Jiminimonka]

Just posting my humble opinion so they can read all about it...
I don't understand how WoTC can shadow ban extensions to a program they do not author. If the extensions violated content, perhaps, but ones that are designed to enhance functionality of the program (not under authorship, maintenance, or control of WoTC), I just don't see it. Unless SmiteWorks was somehow stupid enough to relinquish control of their product's development to a 3rd party... ???
But I do know this... I've spent thousands of dollars on FG, including additional content, over the years. If they are going to revoke my right to access those products, then they owe me a full refund for depriving my continued use of said product(s). I don't care if 'they' ultimately = SW, DMsGuild, or WoTC. That's between them to fight out. All I know is, I legally bought a product in good faith, and I am entitled to continued use...IMHO. I accept refunds in the form of cash only, NOT "store credit" -- for the record.
This is just one more way WoTC is continuing to drive the enjoyment of the hoby into the dirt. Good luck with that. I hear PF2 is a better product than 5E, anyway...
/end rant

The original Unearthed Arcana for FG got pulled from sales a few years ago, and I can still access it in my DMsGuild library. So I don't think it affects what you already purchased, just stops further sales.

[Jiminimonka]

Good point. Our solution will probably need to allow creators to gift copies to buyers who already bought it.

Those that have purchased the extension via DMsGuild or elsewhere can contact the authors (most of them are on Rob2e's discord and the rest are on these forums) with some proof and get a one time link that shows they purchased,to the Forge system.

[Myrdin Potter]

Those that have purchased the extension via DMsGuild or elsewhere can contact the authors (most of them are on Rob2e's discord and the rest are on these forums) with some proof and get a one time link that shows they purchased,to the Forge system.

That would be important to me as someone that purchased a lot of extensions.

[SilentRuin]

Actually one of my 5 buyers notified me of an issue in Combat Groups Extension (one that triggered all this by being deactivated with mail from DMsG about it) and I found that uploading the fixed .ext file to my non public DMsG page for it actually let the buyer download the fix. So that is a relief somewhat. So no matter where I end up with my .ext - I can still keep DMsG buyers up to date with fixes. At least for now. Super weird all this stuff.

[similarly]

I have to wonder if Combat Groups Extension is the only thing that's been deactivated so far.

I know you're not the only one. Grim Press had announced a new extension on twitter, but by the time I clicked on it, it had already been removed from dmsguild.

[SilentRuin]

I know you're not the only one. Grim Press had announced a new extension on twitter, but by the time I clicked on it, it had already been removed from dmsguild.

I can't tell if your joking or not.

The name they announced... ah never mind. It does seem its only me after all :(

[seycyrus]

I know you're not the only one. Grim Press had announced a new extension on twitter, but by the time I clicked on it, it had already been removed from dmsguild.

That IS him.

[DragonBetween]

It seems there is a lot of confusion on the part of creators on what to do next. Do I find out if I have to move everything over to DTRPG in the hopes the comments and reviews can be saved? Do I hold out for some less drastic "kill them all" policy by WOTC? Or do I hold out for this new FG portal and if it has the ability to split royalties and other things supported by DMsG?

Honestly, I still kind of feel my new Combat Groups extension is still the ONLY one effected by all this. As they have yet to deactivate any of my other extensions.

So glad to hear FG is going to move forward on this portal for sure.

Having said that - I can't say I'm pleased with the "unknown" factor on what to do next. For sure I'm not going to punish people who have bought my extensions by putting them out for free now. I'd rather do nothing than screw over people who supported my extensions early on.

So right now - my options appear to be - wait and see if there is any more clarity from FG and DMsG, because I absolutely never expect that sort of thing out of WOTC.

Is there a way I can buy your combat group ext. privately? DragonBetween(UTC-7)#9389 Is my discord Id

[Myrdin Potter]

This is not the first time that WoTC has had previously allowed content pulled. Character sheet automation was banned once they had a license with Curse that became D&D Beyond. D&D Beyond is now being used to power play on Roll20 (they are licensed but don't sell books in their system) and Foundry (no license). Content is being scraped from D&D Beyond as well.

Doug has a good relationship with WoTC (he was the first VTT to get the 5e license and managed to get AD&D licensed which I never thought would happen). He has already said that he had a solution to sell extensions started and is advanced in considering turning it on. I would assume that DMsGuild will be slow in taking other action until Doug has something ready. He has always done better for the community than I have seen almost any other business leader do, so if he says he is trying to get a good solution turned on, I trust him.

I don't like that WoTC "owns" the code on DMS Guild as I always thought that Smiteworks would have easy access to it if they wanted to work with the programmer to incorporate it into the ruleset.

[i3ullseye]

Seems there are some who think Hasbro is cleaning up house in order to shop/sell WOTC? The two licensing lawsuits seem to indicate they want to tie up any loose ends to package things nicely. Maybe this is a result of an in house audit of licensing and such?

[Myrdin Potter]

Seems there are some who think Hasbro is cleaning up house in order to shop/sell WOTC? The two licensing lawsuits seem to indicate they want to tie up any loose ends to package things nicely. Maybe this is a result of an in house audit of licensing and such?

That was an article with terrible reasoning. MtG is the jewel in WoTC, not D&D.

[SilentRuin]

Is there a way I can buy your combat group ext. privately? DragonBetween(UTC-7)#9389 Is my discord Id

Not at this time I'll let you know when it has a home though. Grim Press will likely be doing something in the near future for this one.

[similarly]

I can't tell if your joking or not.

The name they announced... ah never mind. It does seem its only me after all :(

((slaps forehead)) Oh. Now I got it. You're "Grim Press"? I'm sorry. I didn't know that. That said: I LOVE Grim Press stuff and was really looking forward to that new one.

[SilentRuin]

((slaps forehead)) Oh. Now I got it. You're "Grim Press"? I'm sorry. I didn't know that. That said: I LOVE Grim Press stuff and was really looking forward to that new one.

I'm not grim press :) They handle my extension marketing now though as I'm simply to lazy to do it. I don't know where they post stuff but evidently twitter is one place - I don't even have a twitter account :)

[JohnD]

I don't even have a twitter account :)

Good choice.

[similarly]

I'm not grim press :) They handle my extension marketing now though as I'm simply to lazy to do it. I don't know where they post stuff but evidently twitter is one place - I don't even have a twitter account :)

Yup. Saw it on twitter. Shame. Really looking forward to that one. Hope this gets worked out soon.

[Nylanfs]

Note on Hasbro selling WotC, AFAIK Hasbro has NEVER sold an IP. They will let it sit on a shelf for years or decades before bringing it back out.

[SilentRuin]

Yup. Saw it on twitter. Shame. Really looking forward to that one. Hope this gets worked out soon.

I feel I should point out - Extensions = RISK - as per my paragraph in all my extension page 1's. Read the .txt file that comes with them BEFORE you buy as it covers any additional risk on compatibility with other extensions that may use the code I reference that is "copied" not "overriden, while calling the original code still". I don't know of incompatibilities but I do know there are so many extensions out there - they will be there if we share the same "there can be only one" code. At that point the loadorder will determine who's code actually gets run.

Sorry to be on a soapbox there - but its a "thing" with me and warning about extensions :)

[ddavison]

Actually one of my 5 buyers notified me of an issue in Combat Groups Extension (one that triggered all this by being deactivated with mail from DMsG about it) and I found that uploading the fixed .ext file to my non public DMsG page for it actually let the buyer download the fix. So that is a relief somewhat. So no matter where I end up with my .ext - I can still keep DMsG buyers up to date with fixes. At least for now. Super weird all this stuff.

Thanks for letting us know about this. That is nice.

[rob2e]

Thanks for letting us know about this. That is nice.

My guess based on 5 years of experience with DMs Guild (AND THIS IS BY NO MEANS OFFICIAL, it's just a guess) is that DMs Guild will implement a rule and disallow any FUTURE .ext publications, but they will forego the EXTREME nightmare of nerfing anything already published.

Although it is bonkers (IMO) for WotC to shoot themselves in the foot (financially and PR-wise) to not allow sales of .ext files (for whatever reason), I don't think they want to upset a strong subset of the community by taking away files already on the server. I would imagine that would cause even a GREATER uproar than the small one happening now. Imagine a corporation receiving complaint after complaint from people who purchased an item and it no longer receives support or access to download it. I mean it COULD happen, but I would think they wouldn't want the trouble.

Again, I must stress, this is just my GUESS as to what they will (not?) do...

[DM_BK]

Based on what ddavison said (thank you for those details!), it sounds like a "we don't understand this, shoot it!" type of knee jerk out of WOTC.

Side note: I hope the new Forge isn't built off of the current FG Store framework. I'm sure it's just me but I find the FG store a bit painful to find things and to browse compare to just about any online store on the internet. It feels like there is more packed into that store then it was originally intended to hold.

[Valyar]

I doubt Hasbro/WotC care for the .ext .mod under DMG. It is something hard to control from end to end. They already went the slippery slope without way back with the removal of races and other things...

[Jiminimonka]

Sounds to me like they only want 5e D&D stuff on DMSGuild and so have put an end to sales of FG extensions. Simple enough and it gives the control and sales of extensions to Smiteworks (eventually) where they should be. Then Smiteworks gets a cut and we get a better product with the extra money they have. Win win.

[Neovirtus]

Sounds to me like they only want 5e D&D stuff on DMSGuild and so have put an end to sales of FG extensions. Simple enough and it gives the control and sales of extensions to Smiteworks (eventually) where they should be. Then Smiteworks gets a cut and we get a better product with the extra money they have. Win win.

Exactly. It is no more complicated (or nefarious) than this.

It was never intended to be a marketplace for "All things digital /VTT" and this is a correction back to that intended purpose. I was always surprised SW *ALLOWED* extensions to be sold period. But that's a separate conversation. It makes complete sense to me that WotC is not interested in providing a marketplace for third party "expansions" for a software they don't own, and that does not related to their IP.

[Valyar]

This is what happens when modders in Foundry violate in very brutal way every copyright. I am surprised that Hasbro waited so long and didn't send the big guns already.

[Jiminimonka]

This is what happens when modders in Foundry violate in very brutal way every copyright. I am surprised that Hasbro waited so long and didn't send the big guns already.

Don't know anything about Foundry modders and their ways. FGU is better than that thing anyway.

[LordEntrails]

I don't think it's not that WotC doesn't want the extensions or the community sales, but rather that they never planned for it. That makes lawyers jumpy/cautious.

If you actually read the Community Content Agreement which is what authors agree to when they post something, it is wholly inadequate to license software. It just doesn't address software code in any effective way. And, if you were to apply what it says about creative content other than images, it would mean that all the code written by one extension author can be used by any other extension author on the Guild. Not sure all the extension authors understand that. There are other things too, such as harm to your computer etc.

But, anyway, think of it like a machine built to dispense little toys. And that anyone can upload a toy and the machine will sell the toy for anyone who comes by the train station etc. But then someone goes and starts putting sandwiches and food in the machine for it to sell. The machine owners come buy and see that food is being sold and think to themselves "Uh oh, what happens if someone buys one of these sandwiches and gets sick? We're not license by the health department to sell food. We need to not allow people to sell food! (Not that we don't want to make money from them, but if we allow food to be sold, we are liable for things we didn't plan for.)"

Not that a machine can't be made to sell food (software code), but this one was not made or licensed to do that.

[Kelrugem]

I don't think it's not that WotC doesn't want the extensions or the community sales, but rather that they never planned for it. That makes lawyers jumpy/cautious.

If you actually read the Community Content Agreement which is what authors agree to when they post something, it is wholly inadequate to license software. It just doesn't address software code in any effective way. And, if you were to apply what it says about creative content other than images, it would mean that all the code written by one extension author can be used by any other extension author on the Guild. Not sure all the extension authors understand that. There are other things too, such as harm to your computer etc.

But, anyway, think of it like a machine built to dispense little toys. And that anyone can upload a toy and the machine will sell the toy for anyone who comes by the train station etc. But then someone goes and starts putting sandwiches and food in the machine for it to sell. The machine owners come buy and see that food is being sold and think to themselves "Uh oh, what happens if someone buys one of these sandwiches and gets sick? We're not license by the health department to sell food. We need to not allow people to sell food! (Not that we don't want to make money from them, but if we allow food to be sold, we are liable for things we didn't plan for.)"

Not that a machine can't be made to sell food (software code), but this one was not made or licensed to do that.

Yeah, I completely agree :) I think it is wrong now to say that WotC acts with an "evil purpose" or that Foundry has to do something with that (EDIT: as some others said, not you, LordEntrails :D). As one sees in Doug's answer, WotC was simply not aware of what extensions are and that they actually exist (on Dmsguild). That shows that they put up the agreement just with modules in mind, which makes sense as others said, because code stuff has not really something to do with 5e, it is then about a VTT on which you can play 5e but which is strictly speaking a programme and not related to the IP of D&D in a sense like adventure modules etc. :) Maybe one could even argue that the agreement between SmiteWorks and WotC/Dmsguild is strictly speaking not allowing extensions (but I do not know how it is formulated). At least the agreement does not fit for such things, especially the exclusivity agreement which just causes problems then. As it happened here: SmiteWorks needed to ask Dmsguild whether they are allowed to integrate a code based on their programme. And WotC suddenly has "responsibility" for that. I can understand when WotC does not want to be connected to that, or that they at least now take a step back first. (A step they never willingly did as for modules)

As others mentioned, with the FG forge things can just be better, especially with respect to licenses and it is easier for SmiteWorks to approach developers about integrating their code :)

[Myrdin Potter]

There is some direct link to 5e. Anything that adds spell effects and uses all the spells that are not in the SRD need to be sold at a place like DMsGuild.com. Any extension that just works on the 5e ruleset also has a link. They specifically don't want you to create your own world, but do accept generic modules that don't have additional world info are OK. The license carves out art from being grabbed by WoTC but everything else is.

[SilentRuin]

There is some direct link to 5e. Anything that adds spell effects and uses all the spells that are not in the SRD need to be sold at a place like DMsGuild.com. Any extension that just works on the 5e ruleset also has a link. They specifically don't want you to create your own world, but do accept generic modules that don't have additional world info are OK. The license carves out art from being grabbed by WoTC but everything else is.

I can vouch that this is no longer true in DMsG. My extensions are written for 5E rulesets and have no connection to data - just FGU 5E(based on CoreRPG) ruleset code. And it was whacked. First. So its any extension at all now that is not allowed.

[Kelrugem]

There is some direct link to 5e. Anything that adds spell effects and uses all the spells that are not in the SRD need to be sold at a place like DMsGuild.com. Any extension that just works on the 5e ruleset also has a link. They specifically don't want you to create your own world, but do accept generic modules that don't have additional world info are OK. The license carves out art from being grabbed by WoTC but everything else is.

From a user perspective, yes. But such agreements are heavily based on terminology, modules faciliate 5e data and add new things, while the code adds automation for such data to some programme. I would not wonder when that actually makes a difference in licenses and agreements. I cannot simply upload a module for 5e using their adventure modules, but I can always upload an extension or my own VTT automating effects and stuff from the 5e rules arising in certain modules and that has then nothing to do with WotC (then only with SmiteWorks when it is about extensions for FG) :) So, there is certainly a difference in agreements when it is about modules and extensions :) Data is not the same as automating rules from that point of view :) The copyright is distributed differently etc.

[SilentRuin]

I'm not sure where this puts my purely FGU 5e (which is based on CoreRPG) ruleset code architecture (no data) extensions. Asking them for clarification - but also figured I'd ask here based on this mail DMsG just sent me.


Wizards of the Coast has given us more clarification regarding Fantasy Grounds file types. As a result, we have decided that it isn’t the file type itself that goes against our site guidelines, but the function of the extension that could potentially be in breach of the community content guidelines.
If the extension combines content that is supplemental to a product specifically designed with Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition rules and/or uses Wizards of the Coast IP that is licensed for use on DMsGuild, then it is approved to stay on our platform.
If an extension is designed in a way that it could be used by another game system or is a general update or alteration to the Fantasy Grounds platform itself, then it is better suited for DriveThruRPG.
If you can provide a list of your titles that you believe would be better suited for publication on DriveThruRPG, we can migrate those titles over to DriveThruRPG for you. For us to get started, all you would need is a publisher account on DriveThruRPG.
I apologize for any inconvenience. I know this came as a surprise, for you and for us as well.

[celestian]

This is what happens when modders in Foundry violate in very brutal way every copyright. I am surprised that Hasbro waited so long and didn't send the big guns already.

I've seen folks suggest this more than once but seen no evidence of it.

[SilentRuin]

I'm not sure where this puts my purely FGU 5e (which is based on CoreRPG) ruleset code architecture (no data) extensions. Asking them for clarification - but also figured I'd ask here based on this mail DMsG just sent me.

Wizards of the Coast has given us more clarification regarding Fantasy Grounds file types. As a result, we have decided that it isn’t the file type itself that goes against our site guidelines, but the function of the extension that could potentially be in breach of the community content guidelines.
If the extension combines content that is supplemental to a product specifically designed with Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition rules and/or uses Wizards of the Coast IP that is licensed for use on DMsGuild, then it is approved to stay on our platform.
If an extension is designed in a way that it could be used by another game system or is a general update or alteration to the Fantasy Grounds platform itself, then it is better suited for DriveThruRPG.
If you can provide a list of your titles that you believe would be better suited for publication on DriveThruRPG, we can migrate those titles over to DriveThruRPG for you. For us to get started, all you would need is a publisher account on DriveThruRPG.
I apologize for any inconvenience. I know this came as a surprise, for you and for us as well.
I am totally confused - now they are telling me this...


So in the case of the title in this thread, Combat Groups Extension, it could be used with Savage Worlds or Dungeon World, it alters the way FG works, but isn't a part of an adventure module for Dungeons & Dragons.

Looking at another of your titles for an example is https://www.dmsguild.com/product/324556/Polymorphism-Extension-Fantasy-Grounds-Unity. This uses D&D 5e mechanics to work. "Damage is carried back to your true form (as per RAW), and you revert to your true form automatically." This title would be ok on DMsGuild as it is specifically for and uses Dungeons and Dragons rules.

Your Combat Groups Extension would be better suited for DTRPG and we can migrate it there if you have a publisher account set up.

But combat extensions is limited in ruleset use to 5E only - how can this not be still ok if the others are ok? I'm utterly confused.

[DM_BK]

I'm not sure where this puts my purely FGU 5e (which is based on CoreRPG) ruleset code architecture (no data) extensions. Asking them for clarification - but also figured I'd ask here based on this mail DMsG just sent me.

That sounds like they might be reconsidering. But I don't think DriveThruRPG can work (for the stuff not tied to 5e)...isn't that stopped through a different agreement?

[SilentRuin]

That sounds like they might be reconsidering. But I don't think DriveThruRPG can work (for the stuff not tied to 5e)...isn't that stopped through a different agreement?

I'm still trying to get clarity. That's all I want to understand what is and what is not good for DMsG. I can read the current responses like all my stuff are applicable but am being told one is not. Its getting kind of frustrating. Ruleset 5E is in all my extensions - its a thing. Even Combat Groups is 5E.

[Kelrugem]

I think they are in the process of figuring out what is correct in the moment, too; but, when I understood correctly, a shift to DriveThrough is not simply allowed, see https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?61018-Rules-for-advertising-Read-First! :) (also the posts afterwards, one needs a separate agreement).

[Ludd_G]

SilentRuin, if your ext is coded to only work in 5e and won't run for Savage Worlds or Dungeon World, then it would appear they've been mis-informed somehow? I'd let them know that your ext will exclusively only run in 5e?

[LordEntrails]

Give them time. And until Doug says otherwise, FG code can not be sold on DriveThru.

Sounds to me like people are trying to figure it out, and trying to keep authors informed, but I don't think they have consensus yet that they need.

[SilentRuin]

Give them time. And until Doug says otherwise, FG code can not be sold on DriveThru.

Sounds to me like people are trying to figure it out, and trying to keep authors informed, but I don't think they have consensus yet that they need.

Really? Because the last mail I got has me even more confused. Almost contradicts the previous one.


The specification we have is that for a Fantasy Grounds title to be allowed on DMsGuild it must be supplemental material for Dungeons & Dragons, like an adventure, not something that updates the general use of the Fantasy Grounds program.

We state this in our FAQs on Content and Format as well as our FAQs on Fantasy Grounds.

We are not singling you or your title out and are offering you the option to move this title, and others like it, to DriveThruRPG, which we can do for you as long as you have a publisher account there.

I've CC'd some of OneBookShelf team on this email as well.

And now your saying FG extensions can't be sold in DrivethruRPG?

I am utterly. Completely. Lost.

No idea what is going on anymore with FG/DMsG/WotC.

[Kelrugem]

Really? Because the last mail I got has me even more confused. Almost contradicts the previous one.



And now your saying FG extensions can't be sold in DrivethruRPG?

I am utterly. Completely. Lost.

No idea what is going on anymore with FG/DMsG/WotC.

About DriveThorugh: Yes, not simply allowed from SmiteWorks' side, see my link in the answer above :)

As LordEntrails said, we should wait until everything got figured out :)

[LordEntrails]

Read Doug's earlier post in this thread. There are two ways prior to this week that FG extensions could be legally sold;
1) with a license agreement with SmiteWorks
2) Via the DMsGuild.

#2 now has been removed (permanently or not)

Note that DriveThru is not on his list. SmiteWorks does not have an agreement with DriveThru. Yes DriveThru and DMSG are both operated by OBS, but that doesn't mean that OBS/DriveThru has an agreement with SmiteWorks to sell FG extensions on DriveThru.

I suspect the support person who works for OBS doesn't know this and is trying to be as helpful and responsive to you as they can be. But they don't know that FG XML code is protected by copyright. I'm sure they assume you own the intellectual property rights to everything in your code, but you don't. Hence the problem with just moving it to DriveThru.

A solution might be for SmiteWorks to sign a contract with DriveThru to allow such, but that too is going to take time. And it looks like Doug was trying to see if he could get the FG extension Forge up and running in a reasonable amount of time. But if I remember correctly he said that would take them a week or so to figure out.

Hence why I keep suggesting patience.

[SilentRuin]

Read Doug's earlier post in this thread. There are two ways prior to this week that FG extensions could be legally sold;
1) with a license agreement with SmiteWorks
2) Via the DMsGuild.

#2 now has been removed (permanently or not)

Note that DriveThru is not on his list. SmiteWorks does not have an agreement with DriveThru. Yes DriveThru and DMSG are both operated by OBS, but that doesn't mean that OBS/DriveThru has an agreement with SmiteWorks to sell FG extensions on DriveThru.

I suspect the support person who works for OBS doesn't know this and is trying to be as helpful and responsive to you as they can be. But they don't know that FG XML code is protected by copyright. I'm sure they assume you own the intellectual property rights to everything in your code, but you don't. Hence the problem with just moving it to DriveThru.

A solution might be for SmiteWorks to sign a contract with DriveThru to allow such, but that too is going to take time. And it looks like Doug was trying to see if he could get the FG extension Forge up and running in a reasonable amount of time. But if I remember correctly he said that would take them a week or so to figure out.

Hence why I keep suggesting patience.

I am coming to the conclusion that nobody knows what they are talking about. Skipping the mails I've been receiving I'll simply give my last response as it applies to FG/DMsG/WOTC.


See if you can understand my frustration from my point of view.

I was told WOTC had clarified it was not all .ext files.
I was told not two responses ago that one of my extensions was good to stay.
I said there was no difference between that one and any of my others, all were for 5E D&D ruleset in Fantasy Grounds Unity.
I was then told the complete opposite from the last messages.
I was then reaffirmed that no .ext are allowed and they've been very clear about that.
I was told that I should move all my stuff to DrivethruRPG.
I'm now told by Fantasy Grounds that, no that is not allowed.

I do believe any rational person would see my point of view about the need for clarity. And trust me - I don't have it.


Anyone. Anyone at all, that tries to explain to me that people are telling me things with clear clarity is simply not seeing what I'm seeing.

I've been given contradictory information by all parties.

But I suppose only I have that opinion.

[Jiminimonka]

I am totally confused - now they are telling me this...



But combat extensions is limited in ruleset use to 5E only - how can this not be still ok if the others are ok? I'm utterly confused.

Tell them that the Combat Groups Extension only works for 5E.

Also as LordEntrails said, patience. See how it pans out and try not to worry.

[SilentRuin]

Tell them that the Combat Groups Extension only works for 5E.

You're late. The ground has already shifted under my feet yet again.

[damned]

I am coming to the conclusion that nobody knows what they are talking about. Skipping the mails I've been receiving I'll simply give my last response as it applies to FG/DMsG/WOTC.



Anyone. Anyone at all, that tries to explain to me that people are telling me things with clear clarity is simply not seeing what I'm seeing.

I've been given contradictory information by all parties.

But I suppose only I have that opinion.

It is too soon for there to be real clarity at this time.
It might take some time.

[Jiminimonka]

I edited my post... and its the whole planet moving, all the time, at an immense velocity around the sun.

[SilentRuin]

It is too soon for there to be real clarity at this time.
It might take some time.

Then I wish the powers that be in FG/DMsG/WOTC would actually just say that. We don't know yet, we are all talking it over.

Instead I get "WOTC says not to .ext", "FG says new portal in the works", "WOTC says not all .ext", "Some of your .ext are good", "none of your .ext are good", "No .ext is good", "Move to DriveThruRPG", "You can't move to DriveThruRPG"...

If I went by all the stuff that is said it could be distilled down to one simple phrase.

You're screwed. Deal with it.

Fair enough.

[Kelrugem]

I am coming to the conclusion that nobody knows what they are talking about. Skipping the mails I've been receiving I'll simply give my last response as it applies to FG/DMsG/WOTC.



Anyone. Anyone at all, that tries to explain to me that people are telling me things with clear clarity is simply not seeing what I'm seeing.

I've been given contradictory information by all parties.

But I suppose only I have that opinion.

We can only speculate in many aspects at that point :) (sorry, when I made it not clear somewhere that I was just speculating; basically everything was speculation from me besides that one posted link to an answer of SmiteWorks about DriveThroughRPG :) )

[SilentRuin]

DMsG latest...


If Fantasy Grounds is telling you that you can't move your title because of our exclusivity agreement we are waiving that in this case.

Your title may use the 5e rule set, but that does not make it strictly game content of Dungeons & Dragons. There are many 5E-related titles on DriveThruRPG that are specifically designed for 5E but that still aren't allowed on DMsGuild.

I apologize for the confusion, we were still working on clarification of what is and isn't allowed.

Extension files are allowed on DMsGuild, but only if they are very specifically supplemental to a D&D adventure module or resource.

So as we've stated, we are happy to help move your titles to DriveThruRPG if you would like.

My response...

That actually made sense. I’ll pass this on - hopefully you guys actually talk to FG soon so I don’t move and find out it was something else that prevents it.
Thank you for putting up with all this I know you were caught in between. Nice when nobody goes crazy in this sort of situation.

So now of course, back in FG's court. I feel like a ping pong ball.

[bmos]

I think they are in the process of figuring out what is correct in the moment, too; but, when I understood correctly, a shift to DriveThrough is not simply allowed, see https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?61018-Rules-for-advertising-Read-First! :) (also the posts afterwards, one needs a separate agreement).yes, even patreon and such (where you are just taking donations for your work and giving away the extensions regardless of donation) is not allowed (i asked in that same thread).

[SilentRuin]

yes, even patreon and such (where you are just taking donations for your work and giving away the extensions regardless of donation) is not allowed (i asked in that same thread).

Well hopefully someone in FG is reading these mails I'm posting because while I have no issues in moving - I have no intention of doing so until all parties agree - yes you can.

[damned]

Well hopefully someone in FG is reading these mails I'm posting because while I have no issues in moving - I have no intention of doing so until all parties agree - yes you can.

There are 3 companies and dozens of individuals involved.
I would be surprised if this is resolved in less than a week and not at all surprised if its not resolved within a month.

[SilentRuin]

There are 3 companies and dozens of individuals involved.
I would be surprised if this is resolved in less than a week and not at all surprised if its not resolved within a month.

That statement would make more sense if I was not told to move to DriveThruRPG - let us help you. Then told no you can't. Now yes, maybe you can?

See, had I been a wide eyed innocent, or an incoherent angry nut job, I could have already been shifted someplace else (DTRPG) and immediately dumped to the curb.

For all I know - someone else was made this offer and jumped only to find out to their lament that "too bad we were wrong".

So really, I think someone can clarify if DTRPG is valid place for these extensions. Because being told "Don't GO!" and "GO!" at same time is NOT sitting around taking time to make a decision. That's actively directing me to do things.

[mattekure]

from One Bookshelf's prespective, its easy to move to DTRPG as they own/manage both products, but they are not taking Smiteworks licensing requirements into consideration for those statements.

[bmos]

Well hopefully someone in FG is reading these mails I'm posting because while I have no issues in moving - I have no intention of doing so until all parties agree - yes you can.
It doesn't get any more official than ddavison saying it's not allowed.

On the internet you will rarely if ever get total consensus, so it's important to consider the source of your information.

[damned]

That statement would make more sense if I was not told to move to DriveThruRPG - let us help you. Then told no you can't. Now yes, maybe you can?

See, had I been a wide eyed innocent, or an incoherent angry nut job, I could have already been shifted someplace else (DTRPG) and immediately dumped to the curb.

For all I know - someone else was made this offer and jumped only to find out to their lament that "too bad we were wrong".

So really, I think someone can clarify if DTRPG is valid place for these extensions. Because being told "Don't GO!" and "GO!" at same time is NOT sitting around taking time to make a decision. That's actively directing me to do things.

DrivethruRPG are not involved with or concerned with any licensing requirements that your products might have with Fantasy Grounds.
The person you are dealing with might not even know what Fantasy Grounds is.
As far as they are concerned - you as a publisher can publish RPG material under the DMsGuild license - if it qualifies - or on the DrivethruRPG platform - if it qualifies.
its like if you included artwork in your adventure module that you didnt have the appropriate license for - DTRPG dont have a system for validating that you have a commercial license for that artwork - thats your responsibility.
Doug has said - if you want to sell products that are designed for FG/FGU then you need a licensing agreement.

[SilentRuin]

DrivethruRPG are not involved with or concerned with any licensing requirements that your products might have with Fantasy Grounds.
The person you are dealing with might not even know what Fantasy Grounds is.
As far as they are concerned - you as a publisher can publish RPG material under the DMsGuild license - if it qualifies - or on the DrivethruRPG platform - if it qualifies.
its like if you included artwork in your adventure module that you didnt have the appropriate license for - DTRPG dont have a system for validating that you have a commercial license for that artwork - thats your responsibility.
Doug has said - if you want to sell products that are designed for FG/FGU then you need a licensing agreement.

So as you seem to be taking the "I know approach" let me ask you for some clarity. I was told if you had a publishing agreement this was all good. I was told that if you had a license agreement it was all good.

I was told that some parties do have this and can publish to DriveThuRPG.

Now, again I'm getting clarity from people reading other peoples responses and documents and not getting any direct input from those who understand it all. So again. I feel - and I could be wrong - that I'm once again getting misinformation based on partial understandings of the situation. I mean I can be wrong for sure.

If nothing else, I've proven I don't know squat.

As I said multiple times in this thread already. If I go - it will be Grim Press doing the going.

[ddavison]

Anything you publish has to be wholly owned by you and/or adhere to any copyright restrictions or licensing requirements that would otherwise apply.

The response from DTRPG is incorrect. Anything published for Fantasy Grounds requires that you comply with our requirements to do so in addition to whatever requirements DTRPG has. That requires either a Publisher Agreement between you and us or it can fit into DMs Guild as part of that separate agreement between us, OBS and WOTC. DriveThruRPG is not in that list. If you had a Publisher Agreement with us, that could allow publishing to DTRPG and it would establish what percentage would need to be sent to Smiteworks, how frequently and how sales would need to be reported. We only allow this for a very small number of publishers.

We have no plans to spin up a bunch of new Publisher Agreements at this time.

[SilentRuin]

Anything you publish has to be wholly owned by you and/or adhere to any copyright restrictions or licensing requirements that would otherwise apply.

The response from DTRPG is incorrect. Anything published for Fantasy Grounds requires that you comply with our requirements to do so in addition to whatever requirements DTRPG has. That requires either a Publisher Agreement between you and us or it can fit into DMs Guild as part of that separate agreement between us, OBS and WOTC. DriveThruRPG is not in that list. If you had a Publisher Agreement with us, that could allow publishing to DTRPG and it would establish what percentage would need to be sent to Smiteworks, how frequently and how sales would need to be reported. We only allow this for a very small number of publishers.

We have no plans to spin up a bunch of new Publisher Agreements at this time.

I know you probably missed the context of most of this - but this is a yes or no question.

Do you have a publisher agreement with Grim Press.

Contextually - that has been the entire DTRPG conversation to date.

[This is the source of my frustration from being told different things constantly.]

[LordEntrails]

Edit: ninja'd by Doug himself.


So as you seem to be taking the "I know approach" let me ask you for some clarity. I was told if you had a publishing agreement this was all good. I was told that if you had a license agreement it was all good.

I was told that some parties do have this and can publish to DriveThuRPG.

Now, again I'm getting clarity from people reading other peoples responses and documents and not getting any direct input from those who understand it all. So again. I feel - and I could be wrong - that I'm once again getting misinformation based on partial understandings of the situation. I mean I can be wrong for sure.

If nothing else, I've proven I don't know squat.

As I said multiple times in this thread already. If I go - it will be Grim Press doing the going.
Patience Grasshopper :)

This is what you need to know from the person who matters, the President of SmiteWorks;


...
As far as I know, the DMsGuild agreement is terminated and restrictions from that agreement are no longer in force. The bad part is that SmiteWorks as a general rule does not allow anyone to publish content for Fantasy Grounds without either A) a Publisher Agreement or B) DMsGuild agreement. Both of these remain for .mod style content, but .ext files are not typically something we offered in A and they are no longer supported in B. This is likely going to require another solution.

It's all a bit sudden and we haven't had a chance to fully react and plan for a suitable solution. ...

When asked if extensions could be published elsewhere (like DriveThruRPG);


Not without a Publisher Agreement in place between SmiteWorks and the author of the extension.
...
We've diverted a resource over to the Forge project and will probably know more in a week about how long it will take to get that ready.

I know you want a solution. But the decisions are not being made by the people you or I have access to at OBS or WotC. Emailing with OBS Support really is just muddying the waters for yourself, because they can not give you an informed decision until they are told what that decision is. And that will only happen when among others, Doug reaches agreements with OBS and WotC. Have faith that as soon as Doug reaches agreement or arrives at a solution and the decision can be made public, he will make it public on the forums here.

All of the splashing we do down here lets those folks know the issue is important, but it doesn't help them work through the issues they have to work through.

Don't forget, not only do you need to worry about any license agreement with OBS when you publish an extension (or whatever publisher you may use), you also need to comply with the Fantasy Grounds license. Specifically this part right here (emphasis mine);


5. AUTHORIZED CONTENT DISTRIBUTION. You agree not to use the SOFTWARE in any way to create unauthorized content for distribution to other users. This includes any content which violates any copyrights of any persons or for which you own the copyright but you have not obtained a LICENSE AGREEMENT with SMITEWORKS for authorized content distribution. You may create and distribute content in a strictly non-commercial capacity without a LICENSE AGREEMENT as if it were authorized content as long as that content does not violate any copyrights of any person. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/faq.php?faq=fantasy_grounds_faq#faq_eula

[SilentRuin]

Patience Grasshopper :)

This is what you need to know from the person who matters, the President of SmiteWorks;



When asked if extensions could be published elsewhere (like DriveThruRPG);



I know you want a solution. But the decisions are not being made by the people you or I have access to at OBS or WotC. Emailing with OBS Support really is just muddying the waters for yourself, because they can not give you an informed decision until they are told what that decision is. And that will only happen when among others, Doug reaches agreements with OBS and WotC. Have faith that as soon as Doug reaches agreement or arrives at a solution and the decision can be made public, he will make it public on the forums here.

All of the splashing we do down here lets those folks know the issue is important, but it doesn't help them work through the issues they have to work through.

Don't forget, not only do you need to worry about any license agreement with OBS when you publish an extension (or whatever publisher you may use), you also need to comply with the Fantasy Grounds license. Specifically this part right here (emphasis mine);

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/faq.php?faq=fantasy_grounds_faq#faq_eula

If it turns out Grim Press has a publishing agreement and I've been fire hosed with misinformation from the get go - having mentioned even at the very beginning that they would be doing this for me if it happened - I will be...

Less than pleased.

But really - its the forums. I don't know what I was thinking that context could be preserved more than a few posts (sigh)

And who knows? As I said - so many people telling me different stories out of context - even I am no longer sure what I've been told and by whom.

[LordEntrails]

*lol*
Yes, if Grim Press has an agreement and it allows them to publish for sub-contractors (or however you are classified with them), then I would think you would be fine. But that's something Grim Press should be dealing with. Isn't that why you let them publish your stuff? To avoid having to deal with this ?:)

[ddavison]

I know you probably missed the context of most of this - but this is a yes or no question.

Do you have a publisher agreement with Grim Press.

Contextually - that has been the entire DTRPG conversation to date.

If you aren't the publisher, then you should let your publisher deal with where it is allowed to be published. It's not appropriate for us to discuss agreements we have with any publishers publicly and answering yes or no questions for someone who doesn't have access to the contract in its entirety is a recipe for further miscommunication. If you have a separate agreement with Grim Press, you should reach out to them to see if their agreement allows them to publish on DTRPG. As a general rule, only a few of our contracts allow for that and they explicitly state it if they do.

[ddavison]

*lol*
Yes, if Grim Press has an agreement and it allows them to publish for sub-contractors (or however you are classified with them), then I would think you would be fine. But that's something Grim Press should be dealing with. Isn't that why you let them publish your stuff? To avoid having to deal with this ?:)

Let's avoid making assumptions on contracts. Every person who signed a Publisher Agreement with us has the entirety of the contract where everything is spelled out legally on what can be done.

*edit
I want to add that not every Publisher Agreement is exactly the same either. They are all very similar but they evolved over time and accounted for specifics that may have arisen based on back and forth discussions between the parties. Hence, people should only look at their own contract.

[LordEntrails]

Let's avoid making assumptions on contracts. Every person who signed a Publisher Agreement with us has the entirety of the contract where everything is spelled out legally on what can be done.
Absolutely!

[SilentRuin]

If you aren't the publisher, then you should let your publisher deal with where it is allowed to be published. It's not appropriate for us to discuss agreements we have with any publishers publicly and answering yes or no questions for someone who doesn't have access to the contract in its entirety is a recipe for further miscommunication. If you have a separate agreement with Grim Press, you should reach out to them to see if their agreement allows them to publish on DTRPG. As a general rule, only a few of our contracts allow for that and they explicitly state it if they do.

What I was doing till I was point blank told - move your stuff we'll help - which was the plan with Grim Press doing it for me. Then having people tell me point blank that I could not do it. Grim was not around to consult.

So that would have been nice had I not been actively pulled in two directions at once. I suppose I could have remained quiet and waited while I was told to do two contradictory things - but hey. I like clarity. Even if its "I don't know yet". But the statements were pretty much not that.

I'll wait till grim gets back and definitely let him handle it from now on. As I said at the VERY beginning of this thread until I started receiving so many contradictory pieces of information.

[ddavison]

That's the best plan. I'm locking this thread to prevent further miscommunication.