Which licensed game systems are still supported/developed?

[Galdor]

Hi,
the FG home-page shows several licensed game systems, but I heard/read that some of them are not more supported/developed (Rolemaster, for example, or Mutants&Masterminds), which means they are not more implemented, their bugs will not have any fix, no related products/modules will be released..

Could you please list which official licensed game system (showed in home-page) is not more supported/developed, hopefully detailing also their status (maybe no related products/modules will be released, but bugs are still fixed)? Please detail also if different editions of the same game system have different status: for example, Savage Worlds "Adventure Edition" (SWADE) is fully supported, whereas Savage Worlds "Deluxe Edition" is not supported any more..

I think this could be very useful also to decide in which game system invest money.. ;)

Here is the list of the official licensed game system showed in home-page (in alphabetical order):
13th Age
Alien
Barbarians of Lemuria
Call of Cthulhu
Castles&Crusades
Deadlands
D&D
D&D Classic
Dungeon Crawl Classic
Fifth Edition Fantasy
Mutants&Masterminds
Pathfinder 1
Pathfinder 2
Rolemaster
Savage Worlds
Starfinder
Symbaroum
Traveller 1
Traveller 2 (Mongoose)
WOIN
Vampire

[LordEntrails]

Everything on the homepage is supported. Meaning it will have any bugs fixed. As for what ones have ongoing improvements, that I don't know. I would check the sub-forum for the rulesets you are interested in and see what is active.

[Trenloe]

...but I heard/read that some of them are not more supported/developed (Rolemaster, for example, or Mutants&Masterminds), which means they are not more implemented, their bugs will not have any fix, no related products/modules will be released..
As mentioned, all sold products are supported. Some products may not currently have an active developer assigned to them (usually part-time commission based developers).

The two you mentioned most definitely have active development ongoing. Look at the activity on the relevant threads. Rolemaster: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?65-Rolemaster-Classic M&M: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?70-Mutants-amp-Masterminds

[Galdor]

Thank you for your replies.

Everything on the homepage is supported. Meaning it will have any bugs fixed.
As mentioned, all sold products are supported.
Not all products on the homepage are supported: for example, as already mentioned, only Savage Worlds "Adventure Edition" is supported, whereas SW "Deluxe Edition" is not any more supported..


Some products may not currently have an active developer assigned to them (usually part-time commission based developers).
Well, is it possible to list which products have an active developer assigned to them (and maybe keep such list updated), without wasting time going into any single sub-forum to find the status of that product?

[Trenloe]

Not all products on the homepage are supported: for example, as already mentioned, only Savage Worlds "Adventure Edition" is supported, whereas SW "Deluxe Edition" is not any more supported..
Savage Worlds Deluxe Edition is still supported. If the product has any major issues it will be fixed.

"Supported" means that you can still use it and that any issues that prevent using it will be addressed.

As for your other questions, SmiteWorks will need to answer/decide if they want to publicly detail which rulesets have currently active developers or not. The issue here is that people could take that the wrong way (like thinking something is dead and not supported by SmiteWorks, for example).

[Galdor]

Savage Worlds Deluxe Edition is still supported. If the product has any major issues it will be fixed.

"Supported" means that you can still use it and that any issues that prevent using it will be addressed.
OK, thank you Trenloe.


As for your other questions, SmiteWorks will need to answer/decide if they want to publicly detail which rulesets have currently active developers or not. The issue here is that people could take that the wrong way (like thinking something is dead and not supported by SmiteWorks, for example).
I believe that an updated list of the products with an active developer, as well as of the releases/improvements on work, could be really useful for the customers.. At the moment, I could take in the wrong way that the last Rolemaster product was released years ago ;)

[Talyn]

There are different definitions of "supported" as well. Ruleset Developers are a much smaller subset of the broader DLC Developer umbrella. RMC and M&M went years with no ruleset developer but now they each have one. That does not necessarily mean they will be receiving new DLC, however. Frequently ruleset devs only work on the ruleset while others produce the actual DLC you play with.

Both Savage Worlds rulesets are handled by the same ruleset developer. The Deluxe (SWD) ruleset was redesigned from a standalone ruleset into smaller ruleset that is layered over the SWADE ruleset to essentially "downgrade" it back to Deluxe. That same ruleset developer is also in charge of the entire Deadlands: Reloaded product line, as well as the upcoming Deadlands: The Weird West. (Which are settings for Savage Worlds, not their own game system as you implied in your list above, by the way). The other Savage Worlds products are handled by a variety of the DLC Developers, including myself.

D&D Classic (2E) is also extremely active in both ruleset and DLC development. D&D 5E, however, has been feature-complete for quite some time ruleset-wise (it's currently in the process of getting a Character Wizard though) and only receives bug fixes from the ruleset side of things, but D&D is the "most popular RPG" so it's always getting new DLC developed.

13th Age also went for a while without a ruleset developer, and even now that @Superteddy57 is overseeing the lineup, I'm not sure if he considers himself the actual "ruleset developer" or not. Will 13th Age ever see any more DLC? Who knows? That'd be up any of the DLC Developers who feel like undertaking anything.

That applies to all DLC across all rulesets, for that matter. There's a large list of licensed publishers but no programmers have stepped up to be the Ruleset Developer. The rest of us can't build DLC until there's a ruleset.

[Trenloe]

I believe that an updated list of the products with an active developer, as well as of the releases/improvements on work, could be really useful for the customers.
It might actually be very bad. To expand on what Talyn says - there are many different people involved with developing a ruleset or DLC - the vast majority of them are not SmiteWorks employees - they are people working part time (outside of their usual jobs) for commission. It has happened quite a few times where one of these developers starts something but never completes it - for any number of reasons, and a lot of the time the development files aren't available for someone to continue the work (or they're not in a good enough state to continue the work). Everyone is disappointed (who was aware of the uncompleted work) and would be very annoyed if they bought into something based on a future product that might never actually happen. Hence why SmiteWorks rarely give a release date for products, even those that they completely own the development for. Buy into Fantasy Grounds for what you can get now, anything you get in the future is icing on the cake.

[Sulimo]

Just to add to what others have said, just because there are no new items in the Store does not mean there is no active support for the Ruleset. Content and the Ruleset itself are two different things.

For example, your Savage Worlds Deluxe Edition got an update just last week. Looks like it had to be rolled back, but I am sure once the issues are resolved it will be released again.

See the update here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?63508-Release-Updates-for-November-10th-2020&p=555292&viewfull=1#post555292).


For Rolemaster (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?55141-RolemasterClassic-ruleset-v2-0-(based-on-CoreRPG)), this year the developer has made numerous changes to the ruleset to extend the functionality (it is now based on CoreRPG) along with various bug fixes.

Just last week (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?63508-Release-Updates-for-November-10th-2020&p=555286&viewfull=1#post555286), there were some items fixed and added. The developer has more planned as well.

The Rolemaster developer does plan to get new items out (Companion I), but has to wait for ICE to approve it.

Just last week another user made available a tutorial module (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?63596-The-Maze-of-Tey-Balls-(GM-Trainer-walkthrough)).

[Galdor]

Some of your arguments are reasonable. What I really need to know is the current "level" of coding of a ruleset; it should be better clarified what each ruleset is able to do: which automatons, drag&drop capabilities etc have been built in every specific ruleset..

I believe that such clarifications could be very useful for every customer, allowing to know what that ruleset is able to do. It will avoid unexpected disappointments like this (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?63700-issues-with-drag-and-drop-in-character-creation) (one user bought Castle&Crusade in the false belief that drag&drop character creation was built in it)..

Such detailed description of the ruleset capabilities could be displayed in every ruleset shop page*, or keep updated in an appropriate forum page (like this?)

* For example, D&D Classic ruleset has a lot of automatons built in, but no info about such capabilities is provided in its shop page (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=WOTC2EPHB)

[LordEntrails]

Perhaps, but the chance to misunderstand or to argue about 'oh, but they said it had X, but to me that means Y..." would fill the forums up with such posts. Instead, SmiteWorks does something even better than a list of features and an attempt to detail, they give you 30 days to try any purchase from the FG Store risk free. Buy it, download it, try it out for 30 days. If it doesn't work for you, return it for a full hassle free refund.

Nobody can tell you if something that will meet your needs except you. The best way to do that is to try it and evaluate it for yourself. And get a refund if it isn't.

[damned]

You might also be comparing Apples and Oranges.
Some systems benefit from more automation and others were intended (by the authors of the actual game) to be less so.
Some systems have simple rules that are easy to automate and some have incredibly difficult rules to automate.
Some have simple rules but mess it up with complex exceptions and exceptions to exceptions.

Add to that - some systems might only sell 1-200 copies (and they only get a slice of the revenue not the whole revenue) - its not realistic for a developer to do the same level of work/automation when they will never get paid for that degree of work. The game should function and function well but it may not have all the same degree of features as another system.

2E is a bit of a unicorn.
It has a very capable and dedicated developer.
There is a reason you single it out.

[damned]

Perhaps, but the chance to misunderstand or to argue about 'oh, but they said it had X, but to me that means Y..." would fill the forums up with such posts. Instead, SmiteWorks does something even better than a list of features and an attempt to detail, they give you 30 days to try any purchase from the FG Store risk free. Buy it, download it, try it out for 30 days. If it doesn't work for you, return it for a full hassle free refund.

Nobody can tell you if something that will meet your needs except you. The best way to do that is to try it and evaluate it for yourself. And get a refund if it isn't.

The guarantee is good - but a list of features would also be good!

[Galdor]

Perhaps, but the chance to misunderstand or to argue about 'oh, but they said it had X, but to me that means Y..." would fill the forums up with such posts.
I guess no one could truly misunderstand D&D5 features, which are clearly listed in the product shop page.. If you wish to avoid any misunderstandings (even the ones argued in bad faith), you could also use a common language for features, with a sort of common dictionary (something like "drag&drop character creation means you can drag a class/race/feat from a list, putting it into character sheet, and the ruleset automatically adjust the character sheet accordingly"..)


Buy it, download it, try it out for 30 days. If it doesn't work for you, return it for a full hassle free refund.
Several customers buy FG products on Steam, which does not have such refund policy: you cannot be refunded by Steam if you use the product for a bunch of hours (too few)..


You might also be comparing Apples and Oranges.
Some systems benefit from more automation and others were intended (by the authors of the actual game) to be less so.
Some systems have simple rules that are easy to automate and some have incredibly difficult rules to automate.
Some have simple rules but mess it up with complex exceptions and exceptions to exceptions.
I understand, but from my (and others) point of view FG rulesets should have more automatons/features possible: it's what could make the difference between playing on-line with a supporting platform like FG, which easily manage all the boring bookeeping through automatons/features, and playing on-line without any platform (or a less expensive one)..


Add to that - some systems might only sell 1-200 copies (and they only get a slice of the revenue not the whole revenue) - its not realistic for a developer to do the same level of work/automation when they will never get paid for that degree of work. The game should function and function well but it may not have all the same degree of features as another system.
I don't know, but maybe some systems sell few copies also because they don't have automatons/features like others..


2E is a bit of a unicorn.
It has a very capable and dedicated developer.
There is a reason you single it out.
I wonder if SteamWorks - with the boost of customers it had (due to lockdowns) - could get now some more "very capable and dedicated" developers like the one working on D&DClassic..

[damned]

Several customers buy FG products on Steam, which does not have such refund policy: you cannot be refunded by Steam if you use the product for a bunch of hours (too few)..

Dont take this the wrong way... but the dev gets substantially less revenue from the sale on Steam. Firstly there is Steams cut and secondly a good chunk of the sales are on localised rates which mean the value is sometimes cut by more than half again.



I understand, but from my (and others) point of view FG rulesets should have more automatons/features possible: it's what could make the difference between playing on-line with a supporting platform like FG, which easily manage all the boring bookeeping through automatons/features, and playing on-line without any platform (or a less expensive one)..

Your call.



I don't know, but maybe some systems sell few copies also because they don't have automatons/features like others..

If you say so.
Let me leave you with this.
Approx 60-65% of every RPG dollar spent is on 5E.
Thats across the industry.
Physical, digital, online.
Paizo has the next biggest chunk with PF2e, PF1E and StarFinder.
WoTC get several more bites at the pie with 3.5E, 4E, 2E, 1E and Basic variants.

You have a handful of other big names including - Legend of the Five Rings, Call of Cthulhu, WoD/CoD/VtM, Warhammer and Savage Worlds.

Whats left is between 8-15% of the entire market is then split between about 8,000 other systems.
So yeah... automation is the reason...


I wonder if SteamWorks - with the boost of customers it had (due to lockdowns) - could get now some more "very capable and dedicated" developers like the one working on D&DClassic..

As stated the 2E dev is a Unicorn.
How many Unicorns do you know?
Now how many of them are coding RPGs?

And refer to the point above.
After 5E and Pathfinder - every one else is fighting over table scaps.

[Trenloe]

I wonder if SteamWorks - with the boost of customers it had (due to lockdowns) - could get now some more "very capable and dedicated" developers like the one working on D&DClassic..
SmiteWorks is always looking for these types of people. But they can't just go and "get" them - because they can't possibly afford to pay even minimum wage based off the hours such a developer works. These developers primarily work on the products because they're fans of the RPG system and FG and they want to get more products that they like into peoples hands. But you cannot possibly make it your full time job, unless you're converting D&D 5E mainstream products - and then the commission would work out at a below average IT salary, when the user expectations requires someone who would demand an above average salary (detailed design, coding, release management, support, tight timescales, etc., etc.).

As @damned eluded to - the less than mainstream products don't sell thousands of copies because they're less than mainstream. Maybe more features and functionality would sell a few more copies, but it wouldn't make the difference between lots of people buying a FG ruleset and DLC because of the automation. Users primarily buy the ruleset and DLC because they want to play with that RPG system. And then sometimes their expectation when paying $10 for a ruleset and core rules product (Castles & crusades, as an example) is way off what the product was originally designed to do.

Fantasy Grounds is a VTT that is providing a niche within a niche hobby - especially for anything less than the RPG heavyweights. Yes, it would be great if every ruleset and DLC had 100's of hours dedicated to development and documentation. But the reality is that those developers getting paid less than minimum wage and doing this as a labour of love aren't going to spend that amount of time for little recompense. Or, they'll do it for a very short term, burn out and move on or cut back their time devoted to development - which we see again and again with even the best ruleset developers - including the unicorn mentioned. And SmiteWorks would soon go out of business (and we all lose out) if they try to take this work in house.

[Galdor]

If you say so.
Let me leave you with this.
Approx 60-65% of every RPG dollar spent is on 5E.
Thats across the industry.
Physical, digital, online.
Paizo has the next biggest chunk with PF2e, PF1E and StarFinder.
WoTC get several more bites at the pie with 3.5E, 4E, 2E, 1E and Basic variants.

You have a handful of other big names including - Legend of the Five Rings, Call of Cthulhu, WoD/CoD/VtM, Warhammer and Savage Worlds.

Whats left is between 8-15% of the entire market is then split between about 8,000 other systems.
So yeah... automation is the reason...
You are talking about rpg market in general (including systems like Warhammer and LotFR, which are not official licensed in FG), I was talking about FG market; you are talking about rpg dollars, I am including also rpg euro, pounds, yen etc


Dont take this the wrong way... but the dev gets substantially less revenue from the sale on Steam. Firstly there is Steams cut and secondly a good chunk of the sales are on localised rates which mean the value is sometimes cut by more than half again.
Your (legitimate) perspective is from the developer point of view, I was looking at the issue from the customer point of view.. The refund policy addressed by LordEntrail is not an argument for the (several?) Steam buyers..


SmiteWorks is always looking for these types of people. But they can't just go and "get" them - because they can't possibly afford to pay even minimum wage based off the hours such a developer works. These developers primarily work on the products because they're fans of the RPG system and FG and they want to get more products that they like into peoples hands. But you cannot possibly make it your full time job, unless you're converting D&D 5E mainstream products - and then the commission would work out at a below average IT salary, when the user expectations requires someone who would demand an above average salary (detailed design, coding, release management, support, tight timescales, etc., etc.).

As @damned eluded to - the less than mainstream products don't sell thousands of copies because they're less than mainstream. Maybe more features and functionality would sell a few more copies, but it wouldn't make the difference between lots of people buying a FG ruleset and DLC because of the automation. Users primarily buy the ruleset and DLC because they want to play with that RPG system. And then sometimes their expectation when paying $10 for a ruleset and core rules product (Castles & crusades, as an example) is way off what the product was originally designed to do.

Fantasy Grounds is a VTT that is providing a niche within a niche hobby - especially for anything less than the RPG heavyweights. Yes, it would be great if every ruleset and DLC had 100's of hours dedicated to development and documentation. But the reality is that those developers getting paid less than minimum wage and doing this as a labour of love aren't going to spend that amount of time for little recompense. Or, they'll do it for a very short term, burn out and move on or cut back their time devoted to development - which we see again and again with even the best ruleset developers - including the unicorn mentioned. And SmiteWorks would soon go out of business (and we all lose out) if they try to take this work in house.
Understood. Are your reasonings true also with the recent boost of customers FG had due to lockdowns?

Lastly, about Castles&Crusades (that you took as an example): I wished to buy the ruleset (and maybe some more dlc), but I did not buy it/them because its deficiency on automatons/features..

[Trenloe]

Are your reasonings true also with the recent boost of customers FG had due to lockdowns?
Yes, I was taking that into account. Keep in mind that any increase in purchases due to the once in a lifetime event we've experienced this year is not sustainable. I saw a big blip in purchases for products I'm involved in from April - August (three-four times the usual level), but since then it's dropped off drastically - to only a little above pre-coronavirus levels. No company involved in the niche online RPG gaming industry can afford to assume they have an ongoing increased income and can spend more, it's a one off that won't be repeated.

[Nylanfs]

Actually I think we should be due for a new stat dump from Doug. The last one was right at the beginning of the pandemic in the US.

[Galdor]

Thank you everyone for this interesting discussion. What about the idea I proposed in this thread?

Some of your arguments are reasonable. What I really need to know is the current "level" of coding of a ruleset; it should be better clarified what each ruleset is able to do: which automatons, drag&drop capabilities etc have been built in every specific ruleset..

I believe that such clarifications could be very useful for every customer, allowing to know what that ruleset is able to do. It will avoid unexpected disappointments like this (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?63700-issues-with-drag-and-drop-in-character-creation) (one user bought Castle&Crusade in the false belief that drag&drop character creation was built in it)..

Such detailed description of the ruleset capabilities could be displayed in every ruleset shop page*, or keep updated in an appropriate forum page (like this?)

* For example, D&D Classic ruleset has a lot of automatons built in, but no info about such capabilities is provided in its shop page (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=WOTC2EPHB)

Perhaps, but the chance to misunderstand or to argue about 'oh, but they said it had X, but to me that means Y..." would fill the forums up with such posts.

I guess no one could truly misunderstand D&D5 features, which are clearly listed in the product shop page.. If you wish to avoid any misunderstandings (even the ones argued in bad faith), you could also use a common language for features, with a sort of common dictionary (something like "drag&drop character creation means you can drag a class/race/feat from a list, putting it into character sheet, and the ruleset automatically adjust the character sheet accordingly"..)

[LordEntrails]

So, how much are you willing to pay for one of the niche systems to have a fully automated ruleset?

Because if you look at any given one, it is easy to estimate 300-400 hours of a developer's time to do such a thing (and some might go into the thousands of hours). Now, If the developer where doing this professionally and had US or western European wages, the cost would be somewhere around $100/hour (ballpark, depending upon country, currency conversion, etc) (not just in direct wages, but in employment taxes and overhead etc). So you are looking at an vestment of at least $30,000. Plus you have to worry about licensing fees, marketing, overhead etc. So for a ruleset to be commercially viable it probably needs to bring in at least $50,000 of sales in the first 18 months to break even. (To say to get a developer from a different world region who is good enough, great, except they know they are good enough and since geography doesn't impact the ability to develop, they too know they can get international rates, so they too demand the same rates).

Now take a look at the actual usage numbers; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?390-Fantasy-Grounds-Game-Sessions-through-May-2020
Castle & Crusades is again fairly typical and it had 3,540 sessions in a year's time. Given that only the GM needs to buy the ruleset, and lets say a single GM runs 25 sessions a year, that means there are about 141 GM's who have bought the C&C ruleset that are currently using it. Say only 20% of those who have ever bought the ruleset are still using it, that means 705 sales of the ruleset. At $10 each that is $7,050 revenue for an investment of $50,000.

Or a loss of $43,000.

Now, many of those numbers are ballpark and very rough, but you can see that it's no where even close to being financially viable to do what you (and many of us) would love to see.

Also, since I brought up the refund policy and you brought up Steam. Steam has a 2 hour of play and 14 day refund policy. Since you can buy via Steam and then install and not launch through Steam, if you know what you are doing, then only the 14 day refund policy applies. And, to tie that back to the financial discussion, since Steam usually takes a 30% cut and Regional Pricing can cut revenue further, that $10 for C&C ruleset is probably less than $5 to Smiteworks, and the financial viability of a niche ruleset gets even worse.

Look, we all get it, we all understand the desire to have an awesome system and a great VTT to play on and to do so at an affordable cost. And we all do know that if a ruleset had the best automation and features there are to offer that it would increase sales. But do you expect it to increase sales by %750? Or would you be willing to pay $75 for a C&C ruleset and not have that decrease sales?

Run the numbers. Believe me, the folks who have the actual numbers have, and if they could make money doing what you want, they would have done it long ago.

[LordEntrails]

Thank you everyone for this interesting discussion. What about the idea I proposed in this thread?

I guess no one could truly misunderstand D&D5 features,
Except people do all the time. People who expect character creation to be 100% automated. Such as the recent question on Warlock pacts. Or expect their be a way to code an effect for an NPC so they get an AC boost. Or the people who want to be able to remove a level from a character and have FG remove the traits and adjust everything correctly. Or the want FG to know if a token has moved too far, and if FG can account for difficult terrain. Or...

Not to try and be a downer here. And yes, a feature list like you suggest would be good and valuable. But, it would still have to be 'generic' or broad. And that means that it's not going to answer everyone's questions all the time. But, what would be a good format for such a list? What would be beneficial to list?

[Galdor]

Many thanks LordEntrails for your analysis. Only a few comments:

At $10 each that is $7,050 revenue for an investment of $50,000.
Or a loss of $43,000.
It could be also seen as a long-term investment, hoping to raise the customers numbers (also thanks to the several features/automatons added) and recovering the expenses in a long period. If the cost would be 30.000$ (as you also suggested) such long-term investment could be better faced.
Obviously it's a matter of risk, but risk is the basis of economy..
Maybe you are right and it's a risk too.. hazardous.


since I brought up the refund policy and you brought up Steam. Steam has a 2 hour of play and 14 day refund policy. Since you can buy via Steam and then install and not launch through Steam, if you know what you are doing, then only the 14 day refund policy applies.
The point is that most people (including myself) don't know exactly "what we are doing": for example, I bought on Steam, launched with Steam, and after only a few hours I lost my chance to refund.. You must also consider (naive) players like me.

Anyway the numbers you showed, even if "rough", are quite discouraging. I just hope these lockdowns could suggest players to invest some more money on this platform.

What about my idea of better detailing the features of a rulesets?

What I really need to know is the current "level" of coding of a ruleset; it should be better clarified what each ruleset is able to do: which automatons, drag&drop capabilities etc have been built in every specific ruleset..

I believe that such clarifications could be very useful for every customer, allowing to know what that ruleset is able to do. It will avoid unexpected disappointments like this (one user bought Castle&Crusade in the false belief that drag&drop character creation was built in it)..

Such detailed description of the ruleset capabilities could be displayed in every ruleset shop page*, or keep updated in an appropriate forum page (like this?)

* For example, D&D Classic ruleset has a lot of automatons built in, but no info about such capabilities is provided in its shop page

[Talyn]

I can also vouch for sales numbers pretty much matching what both Trenloe and LordEntrails have already mentioned, and I have projects in Savage Worlds, Pathfinder (1E), D&D Classic, and Castles & Crusades.

I'll go off on a slight tangent here, since C&C has been mentioned a few times. I am currently (emphasis on currently) the primary DLC Developer for the C&C product line on FG and while I am not the primary Ruleset Developer, I do have ruleset access for hotfixes and to learn from. In fact as I write this I'm alpha-testing a new function I'll be adding to the ruleset once I'm happy with it. The Ruleset Developer has been resistant to adding too much automation because a lot of the "OSR" folks get into C&C and they like to houserule a lot of things. Automation takes away the ability to houserule. It currently has partial drag/drop character creation (I/we will be adding more Soon™ primarily the leveling stuff rather than dropping all abilities at once) but only for single class characters. C&C has something like 11 variant methods of multi-classing which is a nightmare to attempt to code, hence it's (so far) been left as a manual process. The ruleset (and DLC) does have development support but as mentioned, it's a fraction of 1% of the total sales here on FG (and in the tabletop industry at large) and we all have real jobs and real lives. Not all of are Celestian who can happily devote 3 years to building and supporting the 2E ruleset totally for free.

Ok, back to the topic at hand. Would it be nice to have certain automation features listed on the Store page? Sure. The customer has to know what the heck that feature is, of course, if they're not already familiar with Fantasy Grounds. Does the Store page have to be updated every time a feature is added? If you look right now across the Store there is a massive, massive inconsistency just within the naming schemes for products of every ruleset. Some projects list who the DLC Developer was, some don't. I've been asked to take over projects from DLC Developers who have burned out and left the FG scene, but the Store page still has the original person's name (if any name at all). Since I'm not an employee I'm only privy to certain information, but I've gleaned that every update to any Store page, no matter how small, causes some sort of reset on the backend and the Store thinks that product is now a brand-new release, so someone has to manually go back in and correct a bunch of things, which takes time away from the job they're supposed to be doing. Now do that every week for rulesets like 2E and Savage Worlds that have extremely active developers who are always adding new features and automation, and it quickly becomes unmanageable.

Separate example: 13th Age is a newer ruleset which also does not support full 100% drag/drop character creation because it does not have Class and Race data types. Why not? Because 13A is layered over the D&D 4E ruleset, which does not have Class or Race data types. Why not? Who knows, but SmiteWorks have stated multiple times that unless WotC licenses official 4E content, their resources are better spent on getting the Unity client out the door and adding/fixing features to that. If 4E goes official then they'll take the time to add more features to the ruleset. As the end users we don't have to like that, but from the business side of things, money talks, BS walks.

[Imagix]

Many thanks LordEntrails for your analysis. Only a few comments:

It could be also seen as a long-term investment, hoping to raise the customers numbers (also thanks to the several features/automatons added) and recovering the expenses in a long period. If the cost would be 30.000$ (as you also suggested) such long-term investment could be better faced.
Obviously it's a matter of risk, but risk is the basis of economy..
Maybe you are right and it's a risk too.. hazardous.


Just how long-term of an investment are you thinking is viable? And where is that initial seed money going to come from? Assuming we play with the $50k/$7k numbers above, that would mean that they'd have to front $50k to develop the ruleset, with no prospects of recouping that investment for nearly 8 years. And that's assuming that the ruleset continues to attract the same number of new purchasers over that 8 year span. Also assuming that the ruleset requires no investment in maintenance (bugs fixed and/or adapting to new features in the base FG program. Such as the addition of dynamic lighting.)

[LordEntrails]

Seems like the store page is not the best place to have a "list of features" because of what Talyn mentioned, plus it would make the product page(s) too long. So I see 3 other possible places;
- A web page dedicated to each ruleset. Created and managed by SmiteWorks
- A wiki page, similar to above, but a few more moderators have access
- Forum pages, here that the community can build and maintain

They each have their pros and cons, but imo they all would start with a list of possible features and descriptions/definitions of what each of those features entails. Such as, what does a "drag & Drop" class actually do? Does it add hit points, does it add class features gained to the feature list? Does it add actions to the character sheet actions tab?

IMO, if you want a friendly and useful product feature list, you have to start with a common set of features and definitions.

[JohnD]

Lastly, about Castles&Crusades (that you took as an example): I wished to buy the ruleset (and maybe some more dlc), but I did not buy it/them because its deficiency on automatons/features..

That's a shame because, although it doesn't have all the bells and whistles (yet), you can still run a very robust C&C game with it. Also, at the price, you have to be kidding me... it's seriously the best value for your dollar on the FG store. Not even close.

[damned]

It is a good game system and Talyn has done an excellent job with the Reference materials.
And $10? Seriously good value.

[Trenloe]

Lastly, about Castles&Crusades (that you took as an example): I wished to buy the ruleset (and maybe some more dlc), but I did not buy it/them because its deficiency on automatons/features..

That's a shame because, although it doesn't have all the bells and whistles (yet), you can still run a very robust C&C game with it. Also, at the price, you have to be kidding me... it's seriously the best value for your dollar on the FG store. Not even close.
This is actually the biggest argument to not have a table of features. Most of the non-mainstream rulesets other than D&D 5E (and to a lesser extent D&D 2E and Pathfinder Second Edition) wouldn't compare favourably in a purely artificial "FG ruleset automation" features table and that would make people think these rulesets are deficient in automation/features so they won't use it. Whereas the rulesets are great to use to play that RPG system online.

In the end it all depends what you're looking for in a Fantasy Grounds ruleset. Do you want it to allow you to run a specific RPG system online with friends (old and new)? Or are you looking for a pen-and-paper RPG experience with MMO like automation? If you want the latter, then even D&D 5E will disappoint you - we get people complaining about the lack of automation/features in D&D 5E too!

@Galdor - a question for you: if you considered buying the Castles & Crusades ruleset (and maybe some DLC), what was your goal? To play a very cool and unique OSR system with some great adventures and atmospheric setting? If so, you can do *exactly that* for $10 - which includes the ruleset code, data from two products (The Player's Handbook and Monsters & Treasures) and an adventure - for $10!

Personally, I'd buy it because I want to play a very cool and unique OSR system with some great adventures and atmospheric setting online with friends (and I have bought it and I'm very happy with my purchase). Maybe I wouldn't have bought it if I'd seen a table of 5E related automation features where there were a few "X" marks for C&C because it doesn't have that level of automation. If I'd done that, I'd have missed out on a good FG conversion of a cool RPG system, with lots of DLC - at an amazing price point. As @JohnD say - that would be a shame - a big shame.

[Galdor]

That's a shame because, although it doesn't have all the bells and whistles (yet), you can still run a very robust C&C game with it. Also, at the price, you have to be kidding me... it's seriously the best value for your dollar on the FG store. Not even close.
In my humble opinion the best value in the FG store is Savage Worlds Adventure Edition, which has several more features/automatons than C&C, at the same price of C&C!

[Trenloe]

The Savage Worlds ruleset is indeed good value, including the SWADE rulebook DLC: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/261539/Savage-Worlds-Adventure-Edition?term=Savage+Worlds+Adventure+Edition+Core+ Rules Total cost $9.99 (same as the FG ruleset).

The Castles & Crusades FG ruleset package ($9.99) contains the following products (total current cost $47):
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/105322/Castles--Crusades-Players-Handbook-7th-Printing?filters=0_0_10126_0_0
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/65657/Castles--Crusades-Monsters--Treasure?filters=0_0_10126_0_0
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/84040/Castles--Crusades-A0-The-Rising-Knight?filters=0_0_10126_0_0

[Galdor]

The Savage Worlds ruleset is indeed good value, including the SWADE rulebook DLC: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/261539/Savage-Worlds-Adventure-Edition?term=Savage+Worlds+Adventure+Edition+Core+ Rules Total cost $9.99 (same as the FG ruleset).

The Castles & Crusades FG ruleset package ($9.99) contains the following products (total current cost $47):
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/105322/Castles--Crusades-Players-Handbook-7th-Printing?filters=0_0_10126_0_0
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/65657/Castles--Crusades-Monsters--Treasure?filters=0_0_10126_0_0
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/84040/Castles--Crusades-A0-The-Rising-Knight?filters=0_0_10126_0_0
Unfortunately all C&C products you mentioned have almost no automatons/features (and this is really impairing for me, for example in the character creation phase of C&C - see below), whereas SWADE has a high level of automatons/features (at the same price)..


@Galdor - a question for you: if you considered buying the Castles & Crusades ruleset (and maybe some DLC), what was your goal? To play a very cool and unique OSR system with some great adventures and atmospheric setting? If so, you can do *exactly that* for $10 - which includes the ruleset code, data from two products (The Player's Handbook and Monsters & Treasures) and an adventure - for $10!
It's a matter of what you expect from FG, and from FG products.
Please consider what follows:
- In more than 30 years of rpg activities I fortunately collected a huge number of rpgs (pdf or paperback version), including most of rpgs playable on FG.
- I have gaming groups to play them pen&paper (at the table), or online.
- I could play online without any platform, with just an audio-video programme, each player with its character sheet printed on paper, rolling dice in front of the camera (my players are also friends of mine, we trust each other).

Why I do play on FG?
Just because of automatons/features: I adore that all the boring bookeeping activities are managed by FG! This cuts off downtime, prevents mistakes, speeds up the game, enhances role-play etc
No more "oops, I forgot the goblin was Shaken, I needed to make a Vigor roll before playing its turn" (SWADE automatically makes Vigor rolls for Shaken guys)
No more "wait! I am a level 2 figher now, let's go to the player handbook looking for all my new feats/skills/abilities/hp and copy all of them in my character sheet"
etc etc
This is the reason I play on FG what I could also play at the table.. In my opinion, these automatons/features could give to FG a 'plus' compared to other ways to play rpgs..

[Trenloe]

FG as a VTT gives way more than just the automation you mention over playing online with just an audio-video program. Sharing of maps, images, items, story, etc., etc.. tracking of characters and rolling from the character sheet, tracking of damage, whispering, XP tracking, access to the material for the players - every play who joins a C&C game, for example, has access to all of the details from the Players Handbook - no need for them to buy a PDF, plus the GM can share individual entries, encounter setup and auto token placement on the map, the list goes on and on and and on... There are already a massive list of pluses to use FG over audio-video programs.

We obviously have massively different ideas of what FG brings to the party. And massively different ideas of what is a reasonable price to pay for getting a bunch of products that would cost you $47 in PDF form into FG - with a ruleset structure, the contents of those PDFs in FG (legally share to all players while they're in your game).

Yes, Savage Worlds gives a massive amount for the $10 purchase price of that ruleset, and is one of the small number of exceptions to the rule. Castles & Crusades also gives a lot, in some different ways.

Like I've said - it would be great if every single ruleset had hundreds and hundreds of extra hours spent on it to give a decent level of automation (you'll never, *ever* get 100% automation - keep that in mind). But, if that was the requirement for every ruleset released on FG then you'd have less than 20% of the current rulesets released on FG, and many people wouldn't be able to play any of the current non-mainstream games in FG. Providing a detailed comparison of features would, in my opinion, portray some of these systems as "unplayable" on FG because they don't have all the bells and whistles that D&D 5E has, when the truth is completely different - many thousands of people use these rulesets every week to play enjoyable games with less common RPG systems. Like I said, I wouldn't let the lack of 5E bells-and-whistles stop me using Fantasy Grounds to play less common RPG systems with my friends online, because it doesn't! Sure, it's a minor perception shift in what you can and can't do, but stopping you playing that game? With all the advantages over using an audio-video app FG brings? Sorry, I must be missing something...

[Galdor]

I personally value the 'advantages' you listed to a lesser extent:

FG as a VTT gives way more than just the automation you mention over playing online with just an audio-video program. Sharing of maps, images, items, story, etc., etc..
When I play at the table I have a tablet, maps, etc to share everything I want. If I play online with just an audio-video program, well, every audio-video program let you share images etc

whispering,
Every audio-video program let you post a private message to someone else..

tracking of characters
What do you mean? If you mean you may write on your character sheet, well, you may also do it at the table or with an audio-video program..

XP tracking
See above.

access to the material for the players - every play who joins a C&C game, for example, has access to all of the details from the Players Handbook
See above (when I play at the table - or if I play with an audio-video program - all the material is shareable)


In short, from my personal point of view your "list of pluses to use FG over audio-video programs", or over playing at the table, is limited to:

rolling from the character sheet, tracking of damage

The most valuable "plus", in my humble opinion, are features/automatons. I am happy we agree on this:

it would be great if every single ruleset had [...] a decent level of automation
I hope that Smiteworks walks foward such goal, improving also further the rulesets that already have a high level of automation, just because - as I mentioned:

I adore that all the boring bookeeping activities are managed by FG! This cuts off downtime, prevents mistakes, speeds up the game, enhances role-play etc
No more "oops, I forgot the goblin was Shaken, I needed to make a Vigor roll before playing its turn" (SWADE automatically makes Vigor rolls for Shaken guys)
No more "wait! I am a level 2 figher now, let's go to the player handbook looking for all my new feats/skills/abilities/hp and copy all of them in my character sheet"
etc etc
This is the reason I play on FG what I could also play at the table.. In my opinion, these automatons/features could give to FG a 'plus' compared to other ways to play rpgs..

[Talyn]

I hope that Smiteworks walks foward [sic] such goal, improving also further the rulesets that already have a high level of automation, just because - as I mentioned:

This is the point you continue to miss: SmiteWorks only handles the rulesets that ship free with Fantasy Grounds (2E once again being the exception). Everything else that is in the store (Castles & Crusades, Savage Worlds, Rolemaster, Call of Cthulhu, Traveller, Conan 2d20, and many others) are all handled by other developers. All of SmiteWorks' rulesets have been feature-complete for years now and only receive bug fixes (the currently-in-beta Character Wizard for 5E is the only new feature in a long time). Trust me, SmiteWorks would love to see every ruleset have the latest and greatest shiny toys to play with, but since it isn't "theirs" they can't force anyone to do it. Refer to my comment way up there about all of us having real jobs and lives and those come first. VTTs (all of them) are a small niche of an already niche hobby.

[Trenloe]

OK, those responses really explain one of the reasons for our differing opinions - you really aren't using Fantasy Grounds standard functionality to any level other than basic. If you think sharing images via an audio-video app is the same as Fantasy Grounds, and if you think that "tracking of characters" and XP is the same as recording on a character sheet and using an audio-video app, then - yes, I can see how you're missing out on a lot of Fantasy Grounds basic functionality and therefore demeaning the wide range of functionality that you get with a base ruleset and associated data - and concentrating purely on the mechanical automation aspect, thinking this is all that FG brings to the (virtual) table.

Anyway, I'm going to step back from this discussion, as I have better things to do with my time, and the OP is obviously not going to change their mind even given the evidence. You completely ignore the rest of my paragraph about rulesets not being released until they have a parity of automation with existing "top end" ruleset, and cherry pick my before the but comment and say we agree - when we obviously don't, and you "agree" with 5% of the paragraph taken completely out of context.

I obviously completely disagree with what you think is acceptable expectations for a non-mainstream ruleset. A prime example being that $47 worth of electronic content, and the ruleset framework to use that content, is not worth $10 - because it doesn't have the top level of automation that the heavyweight 5E ruleset has. I know that's just an example, but it illustrates how we completely differ in our expectations. Especially with everything that has been presented in this thread about how products are developed, who develops them, how they get paid, the time sink required for even a basic ruleset or DLC product, etc., etc.. and then states "I hope that Smiteworks walks foward such goal" - which basically means you've ignored everything said in this thread about the economics involved with these rulesets - or you're just interested in FG with a handful of rulesets available. On the other hand, I want FG to have many RPG systems that can be played - they don't need or require lots of automation to allow people to play them online with FG (yes, it would be nice, but not a requirement), otherwise Fantasy Grounds would end up being a D&D 5E, 2E, Savage Worlds and Pathfinder Second Edition playing VTT - and that would be a complete disaster.

[Trenloe]

This is the point you continue to miss: SmiteWorks only handles the rulesets that ship free with Fantasy Grounds (2E once again being the exception).
Yup - points getting missed all over the place.

Oh, and PF2 is also handled by a work-for-hire part-time developer.


SmiteWorks would love to see every ruleset have the latest and greatest shiny toys to play with, but since it isn't "theirs" they can't force anyone to do it.
And if they did take it in house they wouldn't spend much time on the lower selling products - it simply wouldn't be financially viable for them.

[Talyn]

Oh, and PF2 is also handled by a work-for-hire part-time developer.

D'oh! My bad, totally forgot your ruleset also ships free!

So there ya go @Galdor, the only two "ships free" rulesets that are under continuous active development are not handled by SmiteWorks either. :)

On that note, I will take a cue from Trenloe and bow out of the conversation as well. It's circling the drain at this point.

[Galdor]

A necessary specification: I absolutely don't want to "win" anything, just clarify my point of view on the "plus" of FG. Automations/features are the real "plus", from my humble point of view, for all the reasons mentioned: they cut off downtime, prevent mistakes, speed up the game, enhances role-play etc..


A prime example being that $47 worth of electronic content, and the ruleset framework to use that content, is not worth $10 - because it doesn't have the top level of automation that the heavyweight 5E ruleset has.
I didn't write that. Just to clarify, I compared (twice) C&C to SWADE: same price, a very different level of automatons/features..

Unfortunately all C&C products you mentioned have almost no automatons/features (and this is really impairing for me, for example in the character creation phase of C&C - see below), whereas SWADE has a high level of automatons/features (at the same price)..


I know that's just an example, but it illustrates how we completely differ in our expectations.
Yes, it is just what I wrote some posts ago:

It's a matter of what you expect from FG, and from FG products.
Please consider what follows:
- In more than 30 years of rpg activities I fortunately collected a huge number of rpgs (pdf or paperback version), including most of rpgs playable on FG.
- I have gaming groups to play them pen&paper (at the table), or online.
- I could play online without any platform, with just an audio-video programme, each player with its character sheet printed on paper, rolling dice in front of the camera (my players are also friends of mine, we trust each other).

Why I do play on FG?
Just because of automatons/features: I adore that all the boring bookeeping activities are managed by FG! This cuts off downtime, prevents mistakes, speeds up the game, enhances role-play etc
No more "oops, I forgot the goblin was Shaken, I needed to make a Vigor roll before playing its turn" (SWADE automatically makes Vigor rolls for Shaken guys)
No more "wait! I am a level 2 figher now, let's go to the player handbook looking for all my new feats/skills/abilities/hp and copy all of them in my character sheet"
etc etc
This is the reason I play on FG what I could also play at the table.. In my opinion, these automatons/features could give to FG a 'plus' compared to other ways to play rpgs..

I understood the economics behind rulesets/dlc, I just hope (it's not an argument, it's just a naive hope) things may change in some way. For example, I just hope that more "unicorns" (citing damned) developers like the ones behind SWADE or 2E could work on other rulesets/dlc..

Coming back in topic:

Seems like the store page is not the best place to have a "list of features" because of what Talyn mentioned, plus it would make the product page(s) too long. So I see 3 other possible places;
- A web page dedicated to each ruleset. Created and managed by SmiteWorks
- A wiki page, similar to above, but a few more moderators have access
- Forum pages, here that the community can build and maintain

They each have their pros and cons, but imo they all would start with a list of possible features and descriptions/definitions of what each of those features entails. Such as, what does a "drag & Drop" class actually do? Does it add hit points, does it add class features gained to the feature list? Does it add actions to the character sheet actions tab?

IMO, if you want a friendly and useful product feature list, you have to start with a common set of features and definitions.
Maybe the first option you addressed - A web page dedicated to each ruleset, Created and managed by SmiteWorks - could be the one with more pros:
- Steamworks could guarantee a uniform and centralized management, with a common vocabulary (maybe wiki pages with moderators or forum pages could not guarantee the same level of uniformity);
- we are talking about FG products, therefore Steamworks could offer a good level of commitment (compared to moderators or externals);
- every ruleset shop page could have a link to the page with the features detailed, so the features page could be continuously updated without impairing the shop page.

[Moon Wizard]

While we require a basic level of functionality for all rulesets officially released on Fantasy Grounds, we do not have any requirement for ruleset developers to document and compare their ruleset to other more seasoned rulesets; nor any requirement for specific-levels of automation in order to be released. We do not have any plans to change this approach at this point.

As always, we offer a 30-day no questions asked refund on any purchases through our web store, so users can form their own opinions about the usefulness of the main application and any DLC.

I think this discussion has reached it's conclusion for now; so I'm closing the thread.

Regards,
JPG