PDA

View Full Version : Vacc Suits and Armour for the min max players



deejaay1018
October 13th, 2020, 17:43
Hi all,
I have some players that want to min max everything, especially armour soaking items. I have interpreted the Core Rulebook to allow a specific number of energy absorbing armour items stacked with kinetic armour pieces. No problems there.
However, when donning a vacc suit, I caught them trying to wear armour under the suit. They argued that the suit was baggy enough to wear armour underneath.

As a GM, I don't want to break a combat system with players stacked up to 20 kinetic armour. Just does not make for an adventurous play.

I am asking other GM's if they have encountered this same attempt. The rules state within some armour items they are stackable. I cannot find a ruling in the book about stacking with a vacc suit.

Thanks for your input

Deej

Pharoid
October 13th, 2020, 19:53
If they insist, I'd let them with a Dex penalty and occasional vacc suit functionality checks depending on what they are doing. Like if they were attempting an intricate repair outside the ship then they'd suffer a neg. check. etc...

adzling
October 14th, 2020, 16:52
We permit only one armor item to stack, and only if it says it's possible.

The only explicitly stackable armor is TL12 cloth iirc.

So the rules are on you side.

Also don't forget stacking armor inside a vacc suit won't stop the vac suit from failing/ being holed.

esmdev
October 14th, 2020, 18:30
While a vacc suit is baggy, it is not loose. All that baggy is actually layers of protective and radiation absorbing materials. The suit itself is generally fairly snug and also has internal waste management resources that would preclude having anything between the suit and the waste exhaust ports of the human body. Just something to consider.

deejaay1018
October 15th, 2020, 23:30
Thank you for your input! Good common sense solutions.

deejaay1018
October 17th, 2020, 12:53
We had our session last night. They, the min/maxing PCs, grumbled but saw the logic with no armour under a Vacc Suit. Unfortunately, the 'Only Cloth TL12 is stackable' rule was contested.
Coming from the CSC book:
Page 11 states that Cloth TL12 is thin and can be worn under other types of armour.
Page 16 states that the Anti-Energy section of items can be worn over other types of armour...And among those Anti-Energy items, ABLAT is the only one excluded from being worn over other types of armour.

So as you might think, it has been posed that with a given piece of armour, you can stack one under and one over said piece of armour...thus creating a rather bulky human tank that would ruin any sense of danger during an altercation.
Cloth TL12 (under) + Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11 + Dispersion (over) would add up to:: (+4 kinetic) + (+10) + (+2 Kinetic +10 laser and energy) == +16 Kinetic and +20 laser and energy. That's quite a buzz-kill when you want a risky battle.

While this is absurd, implied application is there in the rules. Yes, a GM can impose limitations but a clearer understanding of what the CSC really means is what I need.

And one more thing! About that Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11...it states that it is "...good against all forms of weapons". That explains the +20 laser and energy in the absurd stacking example earlier.
Is that correct? If so, wow what piece of armour! Yeah you can't wear it everywhere but out on a planet being stalked by some nomadic Aslan tribe, stacking that armour with cloth can make you rather immune to damage.

rcruk
October 17th, 2020, 15:12
I’ve been playing the general rule that in a stressful situation such as a combat zone or moving through a vacuum after half Endurance characteristic rounded up hours + vacc suit skill DM, when suited up, fatigue sets in creating a bane to all actions until a proper rest is taken. Otherwise if simply sitting around in the ship, walking slowly with the helmet off etc. it is End characteristic + vacc suit DM in hours so even the toughest characters rarely go more than 12 hours without needing to take a rest which generally requires the suit coming off.

It’s a bit of a guideline though, of course some activities and environments are much more demanding than others. The better sessions we have are the ones where we don’t get bogged down in rules so maybe it just takes a little time for players to realise what is a good session and what isn’t. Making it more of an effort than it needs to be for the GM doesn’t help the game.

Xargun
October 17th, 2020, 15:51
We had our session last night. They, the min/maxing PCs, grumbled but saw the logic with no armour under a Vacc Suit. Unfortunately, the 'Only Cloth TL12 is stackable' rule was contested.
Coming from the CSC book:
Page 11 states that Cloth TL12 is thin and can be worn under other types of armour.
Page 16 states that the Anti-Energy section of items can be worn over other types of armour...And among those Anti-Energy items, ABLAT is the only one excluded from being worn over other types of armour.

So as you might think, it has been posed that with a given piece of armour, you can stack one under and one over said piece of armour...thus creating a rather bulky human tank that would ruin any sense of danger during an altercation.
Cloth TL12 (under) + Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11 + Dispersion (over) would add up to:: (+4 kinetic) + (+10) + (+2 Kinetic +10 laser and energy) == +16 Kinetic and +20 laser and energy. That's quite a buzz-kill when you want a risky battle.

While this is absurd, implied application is there in the rules. Yes, a GM can impose limitations but a clearer understanding of what the CSC really means is what I need.

And one more thing! About that Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11...it states that it is "...good against all forms of weapons". That explains the +20 laser and energy in the absurd stacking example earlier.
Is that correct? If so, wow what piece of armour! Yeah you can't wear it everywhere but out on a planet being stalked by some nomadic Aslan tribe, stacking that armour with cloth can make you rather immune to damage.

I have had this sort of conversation with many groups over many games and I have come to the same conclusion everytime - but make sure you explain it to them before implementing it. The more armor they buy/wear the bigger guns the bad guys get. Explain this power curve to them and if they still want to min/max the armor let them.. Then the next big fight there will be a guy with a heavy machine gun (heavy weapons), or a Gauss Rifle with AP rounds. A gauss rifle with AP rounds has a total AP of 9 and will do some good damage to even those with armor in the low 20s. Its all about escalation. Make sure they understand it. And then make sure you carry through with it. Not saying you should kill the party, but make sure they understand the relationship between bigger armor and bigger guns... Guns always win.

Xargun

adzling
October 17th, 2020, 16:00
We had our session last night. They, the min/maxing PCs, grumbled but saw the logic with no armour under a Vacc Suit. Unfortunately, the 'Only Cloth TL12 is stackable' rule was contested.
Coming from the CSC book:
Page 11 states that Cloth TL12 is thin and can be worn under other types of armour.
Page 16 states that the Anti-Energy section of items can be worn over other types of armour...And among those Anti-Energy items, ABLAT is the only one excluded from being worn over other types of armour.

So as you might think, it has been posed that with a given piece of armour, you can stack one under and one over said piece of armour...thus creating a rather bulky human tank that would ruin any sense of danger during an altercation.
Cloth TL12 (under) + Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11 + Dispersion (over) would add up to:: (+4 kinetic) + (+10) + (+2 Kinetic +10 laser and energy) == +16 Kinetic and +20 laser and energy. That's quite a buzz-kill when you want a risky battle.

While this is absurd, implied application is there in the rules. Yes, a GM can impose limitations but a clearer understanding of what the CSC really means is what I need.

And one more thing! About that Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11...it states that it is "...good against all forms of weapons". That explains the +20 laser and energy in the absurd stacking example earlier.
Is that correct? If so, wow what piece of armour! Yeah you can't wear it everywhere but out on a planet being stalked by some nomadic Aslan tribe, stacking that armour with cloth can make you rather immune to damage.

The section on energy armors states that you can only stack one type of armor, period.
So that implies that you cannot stack BOTH energy armor on top AND tl12 cloth under.
That's how we read it.
Otherwise, as you said, things get cray-cray real quick.
If they moan and bitch show them how their triple layer armor bounces all light weapons.
Then discuss the problems of all those layers of clothes.
If they still resist after all that beat them on the head with the rulebook until they submit.

rcruk
October 17th, 2020, 16:34
I have had this sort of conversation with many groups over many games and I have come to the same conclusion everytime - but make sure you explain it to them before implementing it. The more armor they buy/wear the bigger guns the bad guys get. Explain this power curve to them and if they still want to min/max the armor let them.. Then the next big fight there will be a guy with a heavy machine gun (heavy weapons), or a Gauss Rifle with AP rounds. A gauss rifle with AP rounds has a total AP of 9 and will do some good damage to even those with armor in the low 20s. Its all about escalation. Make sure they understand it. And then make sure you carry through with it. Not saying you should kill the party, but make sure they understand the relationship between bigger armor and bigger guns... Guns always win.

Xargun

...and there are MANY things much worse than guns. We’re currently playing the Deepnight Endeavour scenario...

Xargun
October 17th, 2020, 17:37
...and there are MANY things much worse than guns. We’re currently playing the Deepnight Endeavour scenario...

I am not familiar with that scenario.

Xargun

deejaay1018
October 18th, 2020, 00:56
Thank you all for the excellent information! I will probably pose this as a solution which grabs several applications suggested.
1. Only up to 2 types of armor can be stacked. (adzling)
2. Stacked armor has to be stated in the CSC as allowable. (Which currently looks like: Cloth TL12, Conduit-Bleed, Dispersion, Fireproof Suit, Reflec, Nueral Sheath)
3. When wearing stacked armor, fatigue will set upon them quicker than usual (rcruk)
4. When wearing stacked armor, don't be surprised if the attackers notice the glancing blows and take a few minor actions reaching for something that can hurt. (Xargun)
5. For both NPC and PC, rolling double 6's on the attack will allow them to role on a body hit location table (Traveller Companion pg. 51). This way, if that awesome stacked armor has limited body coverage, a lucky shot may still get through.
6. If the PCs object, beat them over the head with the rule book...then disinfect for COVID. Resume play. (adzling)


I know Mad Beard, (Thank you so much for all your hard work!) has the FGU armor tagged with Kinetic, Laser, Energy. I am not sure how the code works for soaking damage within FGU using those tags.
Obviously I can see that if an armor protects Kinetic, FGU is soaking it...as well as if Laser. But some armor, like the Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11 (CSC pg. 13) has no tag.
So, if FGU does not see a tag, then the protection applies to any type of weapon? Kinetic, Laser, Energy?

I need to know this as currently (10/17/2020) I don't think FGU discerns stacked armor with different tags, meaning if you have a Kinetic piece with a Laser piece, FGU currently applies a soak at whatever it sees first regardless of the multi protection.
I currently am improvising a work around when players are stacking armor and getting FGU to apply the proper soak. Lets say a person had a Kinetic +4 layer with another Laser +4 layer. I make my own composite custom armor that states protection as "kinetic +4, laser +4". I have the player 'not carry' the individual pieces and add the composite piece to their inventory and have them wear that instead.
FGU, I have found, will then be able to discern the multi weapon protection and apply only the soak value that applies.

Any thoughts on this? And again thank you all for your information and ideas!

Deej.

rcruk
October 19th, 2020, 00:06
I am not familiar with that scenario.

Xargun

Can’t say much for fear of spoilers, safe to say it’s a tough one to shoot your way out of.

MadBeardMan
October 19th, 2020, 20:06
Thank you all for the excellent information! I will probably pose this as a solution which grabs several applications suggested.
1. Only up to 2 types of armor can be stacked. (adzling)
2. Stacked armor has to be stated in the CSC as allowable. (Which currently looks like: Cloth TL12, Conduit-Bleed, Dispersion, Fireproof Suit, Reflec, Nueral Sheath)
3. When wearing stacked armor, fatigue will set upon them quicker than usual (rcruk)
4. When wearing stacked armor, don't be surprised if the attackers notice the glancing blows and take a few minor actions reaching for something that can hurt. (Xargun)
5. For both NPC and PC, rolling double 6's on the attack will allow them to role on a body hit location table (Traveller Companion pg. 51). This way, if that awesome stacked armor has limited body coverage, a lucky shot may still get through.
6. If the PCs object, beat them over the head with the rule book...then disinfect for COVID. Resume play. (adzling)


I know Mad Beard, (Thank you so much for all your hard work!) has the FGU armor tagged with Kinetic, Laser, Energy. I am not sure how the code works for soaking damage within FGU using those tags.
Obviously I can see that if an armor protects Kinetic, FGU is soaking it...as well as if Laser. But some armor, like the Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11 (CSC pg. 13) has no tag.
So, if FGU does not see a tag, then the protection applies to any type of weapon? Kinetic, Laser, Energy?

I need to know this as currently (10/17/2020) I don't think FGU discerns stacked armor with different tags, meaning if you have a Kinetic piece with a Laser piece, FGU currently applies a soak at whatever it sees first regardless of the multi protection.
I currently am improvising a work around when players are stacking armor and getting FGU to apply the proper soak. Lets say a person had a Kinetic +4 layer with another Laser +4 layer. I make my own composite custom armor that states protection as "kinetic +4, laser +4". I have the player 'not carry' the individual pieces and add the composite piece to their inventory and have them wear that instead.
FGU, I have found, will then be able to discern the multi weapon protection and apply only the soak value that applies.

Any thoughts on this? And again thank you all for your information and ideas!

Deej.

Hi Deej,

Very quickly. If armour has no protection type, ie just a number, say '6' then it has an Armour value of 6 against Kinetic, Laser, Fire etc but not against Radiation. v1.1.5 which is about to go to TEST allows you to stack all armours and it adds up the various defence values if they're worn. It's now for the Referee to control what can stack.

Cheers,
MBM