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TheFabulousIronChef
October 4th, 2020, 21:06
I'm struggling a bit with tokens in the GURPS ruleset. The Size Modifier (SM) generally sets the default size of the tokens when you place them on the map in an encounter. Problem is, they are a bit off. When I have SM +1, that basically treats a 2 hex long creature as fitting within one hex. That obviously doesn't work; I assume Fantasy Grounds figures that "1" means 1 hex. When I use 2, that is better, but...it is larger than the 2 hexes in actuality. Same is true with SM +3. I tried experimenting with decimal points, but that doesn't work. It just creates a monster that is either 1 hex in size (if I use 1.5 or lower) or 2 hexes in size (but oversized) if I use 1.51 or higher. So I have to manually resize...

And there's a weird thing where it will not center properly, but I can work with that, using CTRL or OPTION and moving the token (I forget which allows you to place it in a way that is not snapping to the grid). I think other types of programs have this same problem with two hex creatures (it wants the creature to be centered on a hex, instead of on the line between hexes).

Any ideas? I'd rather not resize each combatant right before combat.

The images below depict the issue. Note: using FGU, Mac OS.

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yako2020
October 4th, 2020, 21:37
I also have problems with that, I don't know if defining the point as an edge instead of a center would help in this? I don't really know if that would be possible.

Gigermann
October 5th, 2020, 03:20
The way I've always handled it as by making the PNG a consistent-oversized square and centering the "image" within it, so it always centers. Doesn't help the SM situation葉hey did away with fixed hex definitions in 4e for the most part, so we usually just wing it.

If you weren't aware of the "auto size to grid" option, make sure you've got that turned off. That one still gets me on new campaigns.

Moon Wizard
October 5th, 2020, 07:48
Hex grids sizing is tough, because FG only supports equidistant "sizes" currently (i.e. square/circle with token at midpoint), as well as the fact that hex grid token "sizes" are not uniform across game systems. This is probably something we'll need to circle back to, if we can get a firm definition of what a token hex grid standard size is as well as add support for sizes that are longer in one dimension than another.

Regards,
JPG

Gigermann
October 5th, 2020, 16:01
This is probably something we'll need to circle back to, if we can get a firm definition of what a token hex grid standard size is as well as add support for sizes that are longer in one dimension than another.GURPS has a trickier concept in that 2-hex creatures are turned from the front hex (usually), not the "center." I've gotten around this as above, but centering the front hex in the oversized PNG.

I don't know how complicated it would be, but it might be useful to be able to manually set the token center—but it would probably need to save that, too?

Baoghal
October 12th, 2020, 21:35
GURPS has a trickier concept in that 2-hex creatures are turned from the front hex (usually), not the "center." I've gotten around this as above, but centering the front hex in the oversized PNG.

This is what I've had to do as well. Make a three hex long transparent counter and offset your counter so that the front hex is centered. Rescale the counter as needed and roll with it. It seems to work pretty well, but after making a few custom tokens I just got to the point where I used more than one token to represent the large creature as / if it becomes important.

It would be a pretty cool feature to be able to offset the token's pivot point, length, and width and then take size as a factor to draw the result on the screen. I have tried to make multi-unit ship tokens on FGC and using Gigermann's methods and the results were okay... but it would have been more fun to set up the token's properties on its owner record (character or npc) once and then have my airships and airplanes just size appropriately when i dragged them out of the combat tracker.

yako2020
October 12th, 2020, 22:42
Sorry for my lack of understanding regarding the application of creating tokens of 2 hexagons or more, but would it be possible for some charitable soul to show the creative process and this process is repeated for the other size variables?

Baoghal
October 12th, 2020, 23:41
Sorry for my lack of understanding regarding the application of creating tokens of 2 hexagons or more, but would it be possible for some charitable soul to show the creative process and this process is repeated for the other size variables?

Sure!
1. Using a PC with Windows...
2. Download Paint.NET or some other program that lets you edit png files while maintaining the transparency layer.
3. Get a blank, white png file with large dimensions and load that into FG as a map.
4. Open up the white map, set your hex grid size to whatever you typically use, ensuring that the top and bottom edges of the hex are horizontally aligned.
5. Use Snipping Tool (windows key, start typing "snipping tool" and it should show up) to capture the hex grid. You're doing this because not every program is guaranteed to make hexes the same way FG makes hexes.
6. Open paint.NET and paste that in there as a layer.
7. Resize the canvas so that, no matter what, you have a hex in the center of the image. You can easily do this by never having the number of hexes long, or the number of hexes wide, be an even number. So if you want a two hex token, you need a base image that is 3 hexes high and 1 hex wide. This is because the pivot point for the token is always in the middle.
8. In paint.NET, create a new layer. This layer will be transparent.
9. Paste the image you want as the token into this new layer.
10. For a token that is, say, 2 hexes long, you would want your token layer to have its head over the center hex and its butt hanging out in the bottom hex. The top hex would not have anything in it.
11. Hide your hex layer. You should just have a token image that looks off center.
12. Since you've gone through all this trouble, you can save this as a .pdn file and use it as a template for making 2 and 3 hex tokens.
13. Now save this again as your new token png file. For other tokens, you just need to reopen your pdn file from step 12 and replace the image in the layer and resave as other png files.

When you load the token into the map, it is going to be the wrong size. Just put your mouse over the token, press CTRL and use your scroll wheel to resize the token until it looks right. If youve done everything right, it will look like you have a two hex token that pivots about the token's head. What you really have is a three hex token that happens to have one of its hexes invisible.

I am not sure if there is an upper bounds on the size of a token, but I imagine you could make some pretty cool tokens this way.

Maybe someday someone will make a VTT where you can have large tokens that you can attach child tokens to. After all... making tokens in a VTT is a lot cheaper than buying Warhammer figures and takes a lot less room. ;)

Gigermann
October 13th, 2020, 01:39
Sorry for my lack of understanding regarding the application of creating tokens of 2 hexagons or more, but would it be possible for some charitable soul to show the creative process and this process is repeated for the other size variables?Attached an (old) example of a 2-hex creature, centered on the (rear) pivot hex. Also, an example of a character token with an actual "center" offset from the center of the character image by itself—the "oversize PNG" I mentioned.

TheFabulousIronChef
October 13th, 2020, 03:03
Sure!
1. Using a PC with Windows...
2. Download Paint.NET or some other program that lets you edit png files while maintaining the transparency layer.
3. Get a blank, white png file with large dimensions and load that into FG as a map.
4. Open up the white map, set your hex grid size to whatever you typically use, ensuring that the top and bottom edges of the hex are horizontally aligned.
5. Use Snipping Tool (windows key, start typing "snipping tool" and it should show up) to capture the hex grid. You're doing this because not every program is guaranteed to make hexes the same way FG makes hexes.
6. Open paint.NET and paste that in there as a layer.
7. Resize the canvas so that, no matter what, you have a hex in the center of the image. You can easily do this by never having the number of hexes long, or the number of hexes wide, be an even number. So if you want a two hex token, you need a base image that is 3 hexes high and 1 hex wide. This is because the pivot point for the token is always in the middle.
8. In paint.NET, create a new layer. This layer will be transparent.
9. Paste the image you want as the token into this new layer.
10. For a token that is, say, 2 hexes long, you would want your token layer to have its head over the center hex and its butt hanging out in the bottom hex. The top hex would not have anything in it.
11. Hide your hex layer. You should just have a token image that looks off center.
12. Since you've gone through all this trouble, you can save this as a .pdn file and use it as a template for making 2 and 3 hex tokens.
13. Now save this again as your new token png file. For other tokens, you just need to reopen your pdn file from step 12 and replace the image in the layer and resave as other png files.

When you load the token into the map, it is going to be the wrong size. Just put your mouse over the token, press CTRL and use your scroll wheel to resize the token until it looks right. If youve done everything right, it will look like you have a two hex token that pivots about the token's head. What you really have is a three hex token that happens to have one of its hexes invisible.

I am not sure if there is an upper bounds on the size of a token, but I imagine you could make some pretty cool tokens this way.

Maybe someday someone will make a VTT where you can have large tokens that you can attach child tokens to. After all... making tokens in a VTT is a lot cheaper than buying Warhammer figures and takes a lot less room. ;)

Great idea! This looks a lot better now, and the creature rotates around the head. The only downside is that even if I go back to autosizing the tokens (either 80% of the grid or 100% of the grid), I somehow cannot get them to automatically be larger than one hex, so I have to resize all of them. Not the end of the world.
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Gigermann
October 13th, 2020, 04:18
The only downside is that even if I go back to autosizing the tokens (either 80% of the grid or 100% of the grid), I somehow cannot get them to automatically be larger than one hex, so I have to resize all of them. Not the end of the world. All the tokens I've ever made have been based on the same pixel:hex ratio so they are always scaled appropriately to each other (including things like vehicles).

TheFabulousIronChef
October 13th, 2020, 13:23
All the tokens I've ever made have been based on the same pixel:hex ratio so they are always scaled appropriately to each other (including things like vehicles).

I知 kind of new to the manipulation of/creation of images, so I知 not quite sure what you mean by this. I *think* I知 doing that also, but perhaps not. My hex grid is 70px. Not sure the size of my tokens. But I *think* the 2 hex and 3 hex tokens are bigger than the one hex tokens.

yako2020
October 13th, 2020, 14:32
Gigermann What are the measurements of the file in pixels and hexagons?

Baoghal
October 13th, 2020, 16:34
I知 kind of new to the manipulation of/creation of images, so I知 not quite sure what you mean by this. I *think* I知 doing that also, but perhaps not. My hex grid is 70px. Not sure the size of my tokens. But I *think* the 2 hex and 3 hex tokens are bigger than the one hex tokens.

When you set the hex grid, if you always set it to the same size, you can also make sure your tokens are scaled at the same standard size. If you do this, you can turn scaling off and when you place your token, it will just automagically be the right size.

For example, lets say you decide that a hex is both 1 yard and 50 pixels. When you make a map for your game, you are mindful of this and scale your map such that 50 pixels == 1 yard. Then you make tokens and you have a 50x50 1-hex token. You can also make a 3x1 "three hex" token (or the aforementioned 3-hex-but-looks-like-2-hex-token) This token image would be 150 x 50 pixels.

If you take this 3x1 token on your 50 pixel per yard map and set your hex grid to 50 px and don't use token scaling at all, then your token will take up exactly 3x1 hexes.

This is how I did Spelljammer ship tokens. I looked up how long and wide the ship was, converted it to pixel size, resized my deck plan token image to be exactly that many pixels wide and high. Then I opened my map, set the dimensions for the hex grid to the same px, and turned off the token scaling. When I dropped the token on the map -- poof - my token was exactly the right size for the map.

Gigermann
October 13th, 2020, 17:47
Gigermann What are the measurements of the file in pixels and hexagons?

The overall dimensions are 300ラ300px. Hex width (flat-sides) is 110px.

yako2020
October 13th, 2020, 17:59
100x110 on hexagon?

TheFabulousIronChef
October 13th, 2020, 21:43
Ah, ok. My hex size is 1 yard and 70 pixels. The image size I have for the three hex high/one hex wide token is 598 x 1352 pixels, at 144 dpi. Not quite sure that I can resize that without massive resolution loss, no?

A lot of my one hex images are 280 x 280, at 72 dpi, while others are at 512 x 512 at 72 dpi. There is no rhyme or reason to this; I never paid much attention to the pixel size, as they would often resize in Roll20 (which is what I originally created them for).

Here's a sample--a screenshot from Skyrim then edited and put onto a hex base, which is 512 x 512 at 72 dpi:
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Gigermann
October 14th, 2020, 01:55
There's not one resolution that's best. It's just if all the tokens you use are the same resolution (pixels:hex) then they will all scale correctly to each other without additional fiddling (and you can turn off auto-scale).