FG Freezing! Unloading a Module?

[Odeatho]

Hello there. I consider myself still fairly new to FG (Classic). I host a game for 5 players. We are playing D&D 5e. FG has started freezing on my end lately (players are fine). We all use Windows 10. I have to restart FG and have my players reconnect - sometimes it will only last 5 minutes before it freezes again. It's really taking the flow out of our games. We are playing the TFTYP campaign. The plan was to start them with the Sunless Citadel adventure, and then run them through the remaining 6 adventures in sequence. We ran through the Sunless Citadel without a single freeze. Now that we are on to the next adventure, the Forge of Fury, it has started freezing lots. Making it more complicated, is that I switched to a new laptop in between those 2 adventures, so I'm not sure if it's my new laptop causing the issue, or if it's running a second adventure. As far as I know, I'm not running any additional software that I wasn't running on my old laptop, so I don't think the new laptop is the issue.


I've been looking through the forums here, and have found numerous suggestions to fix the freezing. I wanted to start troubleshooting with some of the easier stuff first. I'm concerned that trying to run multiple adventures on the same FG campaign is bogging it down. I see that I did have several images and maps loaded from the 2 adventures I've run so far, including all of the player's maps from both adventures. I've unshared all of the images except for the current map they're using (The Glitterhame). Is it considered good practice to unshare images/maps once the players are done with them? In addition to this, I thought I should maybe unload the Sunless Citadel adventure module, and have just the Forge of Fury adventure module loaded. However, I'm pausing on this, as some of the players have items from the Sunless Citadel adventure, including some important magical items. Would the players still be able to use the items from the Sunless Citadel adventure if I unload it? I've also considered starting a completely new campaign and just loading their player files into it (if that's possible), but again I'm concerned certain items from the Sunless Citadel would not be available/visible to them if that particular adventure module isn't loaded.

Unfortunately I won't know if unsharing the images works until we all jump on for a session in 2 days from now. In the meantime, I would appreciate any advice on the impact of unsharing maps/images, as well as unloading adventure modules. Any advice or suggestions are welcome. Thanks!

[Trenloe]

First things:
1) Are you using a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system?
2) How much memory if FantasyGrounds.exe using when you experience these freezes? Look in the Windows Task Manager to see the memory use of the FantasyGrounds.exe process.

[Odeatho]

First things:
1) Are you using a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system?
2) How much memory if FantasyGrounds.exe using when you experience these freezes? Look in the Windows Task Manager to see the memory use of the FantasyGrounds.exe process.

Hi Trenloe! Thanks for your response! :)

I'm running 64bit. I haven't checked to see the memory usage when that happens. If it happens again then I'll take note of it and reply here.

In the meantime, do you happen to know if unloading a adventure module would potentially help? If so, would the players lose the ability to use their items from that adventure?

[Trenloe]

In the meantime, do you happen to know if unloading a adventure module would potentially help? If so, would the players lose the ability to use their items from that adventure?
Yes, that could help a lot (depending on the size of the module). If the players have added items to their PC sheet inventory, or items have been added to the party sheet inventory, then local copies have been made and the data won't be lost if the original module is closed.

[Odeatho]

You are awesome. Thanks so much.

[Odeatho]

First things:
1) Are you using a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system?
2) How much memory if FantasyGrounds.exe using when you experience these freezes? Look in the Windows Task Manager to see the memory use of the FantasyGrounds.exe process.

We just finished another session that was continually interrupted by screen freezing on my end. Unsharing all of the maps and images, as well as the Sunless Citadel module seemed to do nothing to help. I looked at it's usage when it froze and it was at 579MB. My total memory usage was 57%. CPU was 0%. I'm not sure if that's normal or not. I'd appreciate any suggestions. Thank you.

[Moon Wizard]

Some questions for you:
* Do you switch in and out of the FG application regularly during play?
* Are you the GM?
* How many image files do you have in the FG data folder under images/ and tokens/? And how big are they?
* How many image files do you have in the campaign folder under images/? And how big are they?

Regards,
JPG

[Odeatho]

Some questions for you:
* Do you switch in and out of the FG application regularly during play?
* Are you the GM?
* How many image files do you have in the FG data folder under images/ and tokens/? And how big are they?
* How many image files do you have in the campaign folder under images/? And how big are they?

Regards,
JPG

I have Discord and Google Chrome open. I sometimes will use them. I have an additional monitor hooked up that I view them on.

I am the GM.

I don't have an images folder. In my tokens folder I have empty shared and empty host folders.

In this particular campaign folder's images folder there is 1 image of a map that is 7.33 MB

Thanks! :)

[Moon Wizard]

I was theorizing that it might be related to asset refresh on task switch; but from the data you provided, it seems unlikely.

Some more questions to try to narrow down what is happening:
* Does the freeze happen to coincide with task switching on the OS?
* Or are there particular actions in FG that tend to trigger the issue?
* Where is your FG data folder located? What kind of drive?
* What are the specs and OS for your machine?
* Can I get a copy of the log files? (Type /console when in tabletop mode; and click the Compile Logs button.)

Regards,
JPG

Thanks,
JPG

[Odeatho]

I was theorizing that it might be related to asset refresh on task switch; but from the data you provided, it seems unlikely.

Some more questions to try to narrow down what is happening:
* Does the freeze happen to coincide with task switching on the OS? No, I don't think so. It just seems to happen when I'm trying to do something in FG
* Or are there particular actions in FG that tend to trigger the issue? It just seems to freeze while using it in general. Sometimes it will go 45-60 minutes without a freeze, and sometimes it freezes constantly, like every few minutes.
* Where is your FG data folder located? What kind of drive? It's just on my C drive. I just left it where it installed to by default.
* What are the specs and OS for your machine? Windows 10 - 64bit - HP laptop
* Can I get a copy of the log files? (Type /console when in tabletop mode; and click the Compile Logs button.) When I do this a blank screen pops up. There is no option to 'Compile logs'. There is only an option to copy to clipboard, and it's blank.

Regards,
JPG

Thanks,
JPG

Please see my responses in bold.

[Moon Wizard]

What version (number and date) is being reported on the FGU launch screen?
If the Compile Logs button is not in the console, you may be on a very old version.

Regards,
JPG

[Odeatho]

What version (number and date) is being reported on the FGU launch screen?
If the Compile Logs button is not in the console, you may be on a very old version.

Regards,
JPG

I always update when I see an update is available. It's version 3.3.11 ULTIMATE.

I came across another thread where the GMs campaign file was corrupted. I'm wondering if that could be the problem with mine as well. This all started happening after I switched laptops.

[Trenloe]

What version (number and date) is being reported on the FGU launch screen?
The OP is using FGC.

[Trenloe]

Can you describe the freezes? FG can be doing background processes that appear to freeze FG for a few seconds, or longer, depending on what's being done and how powerful the computer is. Things like players joining (or reconnecting if they've lost connection), adding an encounter (or a complex NPC) to the combat tracker, and other intensive tasks.

It would be good if you can try to identify a specific process you do that causes a freeze.

[Trenloe]

I came across another thread where the GMs campaign file was corrupted. I'm wondering if that could be the problem with mine as well.
Corrupt campaign data will tend to give you errors, not freezes.

How big is your db.xml file in <FG app data>\campaigns\<your campaign name>

[Odeatho]

Corrupt campaign data will tend to give you errors, not freezes.

How big is your db.xml file in <FG app data>\campaigns\<your campaign name>

The db.xml file for this particular campaign is 599KB. I'm not sure if this means anything, but I have maybe a couple dozen different db.session.**** files in there as well.

In regards to the freezing, I can't isolate it to a specific action. It freezes when I right click on it to bring up some options, when I accept a player's movement, when I click on a pin to bring up the notes on the room, when I adjust the map in any way. It really seems like anything and everything is making it freeze.

I'm really not good with computers. Could it be a graphics or drivers issue with my new laptop?

I just had another thought. I have several campaigns on my FG. I've been preparing many large maps and preloading them in a different campaign. I assumed that those maps/images wouldn't impact this separate campaign, but perhaps it is? Is that a possibility?

[Moon Wizard]

Apologies, that I didn't notice this was FGC first. Given the information so far, it doesn't seem like a data or asset overload scenario. Also, images from other campaigns shouldn't have any impact, because they would never be looked at.

* Do you have any other machines you can try on?
* Can you post the zipped up campaign folder to see if anybody else is seeing the same issues?

If it seems to be tied to this specific machine, I'm wondering if it's either a driver issue (disk/graphics), or possibly security software interrupting to scan (such as disk writing).

Regards,
JPG

[Odeatho]

Apologies, that I didn't notice this was FGC first. Given the information so far, it doesn't seem like a data or asset overload scenario. Also, images from other campaigns shouldn't have any impact, because they would never be looked at.

* Do you have any other machines you can try on?
* Can you post the zipped up campaign folder to see if anybody else is seeing the same issues?

If it seems to be tied to this specific machine, I'm wondering if it's either a driver issue (disk/graphics), or possibly security software interrupting to scan (such as disk writing).

Regards,
JPG

No need to apologize. I appreciate any assistance I can get. I was running this on my old HP laptop, and never once did it freeze on me.

Please see the attached zipped campaign folder.

[Moon Wizard]

Thanks for the campaign. I reviewed, and I don't see anything too busy (a theme and decal extension; and 5 modules); so I don't think that's it.

Some questions to help me see if I can replicate:
* Do you notice the freezing when just running the campaign? Or only with players connected?
* When you say it was freezing, what do you mean exactly? (i.e. Spinning circle indicating Windows process was busy, windows didn't move when you tried to move, etc.)

Also, did you find any security software on the laptop?

Regards,
JPG

[Odeatho]

Thanks for the campaign. I reviewed, and I don't see anything too busy (a theme and decal extension; and 5 modules); so I don't think that's it.

Some questions to help me see if I can replicate:
* Do you notice the freezing when just running the campaign? Or only with players connected?
* When you say it was freezing, what do you mean exactly? (i.e. Spinning circle indicating Windows process was busy, windows didn't move when you tried to move, etc.)

Also, did you find any security software on the laptop?

Regards,
JPG

I've only noticed it when players are connected. I don't do much in the campaign unless the players are connected, so I really couldn't say if the freezing happens when they aren't connected. By 'freezing' I mean it just crashes. FG just becomes unresponsive....at least on my end. I have noticed that when I'm in mask mode that I unintentionally uncover some of the map while trying to get FG to respond with my mouse. The players are reporting parts of the map being revealed on their end, but it seems unresponsive on my end.

Do you think I might fix this issue by just starting a new campaign? Should I try updating my drivers?

[Moon Wizard]

When a program becomes "unresponsive" according to Windows, that means that it's not accepting input messages because it's busy doing some other processing. A "crash" would be if the program disappeared completely, and Windows displayed a crash report. The difference is good to figure out to know if the program is busy, or closing unexpectedly.

The maps that you're working with in TYP are fairly large for FGC, but should be okay. However, what kind of laptop and graphics card are you using? Does the laptop have a discrete graphics card (NVidia, Radeon, etc.)? If so, can you try going to the NVidia/Radeon control panel and specify that FG should use the discrete card?

It seems like something on the machine is unable to handle the normal load. If it's happening while masking/unmasking, that would lead me to graphics card. Then, I would look at graphics card selection (above), graphics card drivers, and how strong the GPU is for the laptop.

Regards,
JPG

[LordEntrails]

Did we ever figure out the process size of FG? Also, how much physical RAM is in the computer? Going into swap could cause long delays while swapping memory.

[Odeatho]

When a program becomes "unresponsive" according to Windows, that means that it's not accepting input messages because it's busy doing some other processing. A "crash" would be if the program disappeared completely, and Windows displayed a crash report. The difference is good to figure out to know if the program is busy, or closing unexpectedly.

The maps that you're working with in TYP are fairly large for FGC, but should be okay. However, what kind of laptop and graphics card are you using? Does the laptop have a discrete graphics card (NVidia, Radeon, etc.)? If so, can you try going to the NVidia/Radeon control panel and specify that FG should use the discrete card?

It seems like something on the machine is unable to handle the normal load. If it's happening while masking/unmasking, that would lead me to graphics card. Then, I would look at graphics card selection (above), graphics card drivers, and how strong the GPU is for the laptop.

Regards,
JPG


My processor is: AMD Athlon Gold 3150U with Radeon Graphics 2.40GHz

The graphics card is AMD Radeon. I found the settings for the graphics card, but I'm unable to find anywhere that I would 'specify FG should use the discrete card'. Below is a copy of the graphics card system info. Under 'Display' in my graphics card, I see that 'GPU Scaling' and 'Virtual Super Resolution' are both set to 'off'. I'm honestly not sure what that means, but thought maybe that could be the culprit?

Graphics Card Manufacturer - Powered by AMD
Graphics Chipset - AMD Radeon(TM) Graphics
Device ID - 15D8
Vendor ID - 1002
SubSystem ID - 8706
SubSystem Vendor ID - 103C
Revision ID - CE
Bus Type - PCI
Current Bus Settings - PCI
BIOS Version - 016.002.000.011
BIOS Part Number - 113-RAVEN2-117
BIOS Date - 2019/09/02 02:56
Memory Size - 2048 MB
Memory Type - DDR4
Memory Clock - 1200 MHz
Core Clock - 1000 MHz
Total Memory Bandwidth - 19 GByte/s
Memory Bit Rate - 2.40 Gbps
2D Driver File Path - /REGISTRY/MACHINE/SYSTEM/CurrentControlSet/Control/Class/{4d36e968-e325-11ce-bfc1-08002be10318}/0001
OpenGL® API Version - 4.6
OpenCL™ API Version - 2.0

[Odeatho]

Did we ever figure out the process size of FG? Also, how much physical RAM is in the computer? Going into swap could cause long delays while swapping memory.

When it froze on me I think the process size was 599KB. The laptop has 8.00 GB of RAM (5.92 GB usable).

[Moon Wizard]

It looks like you have an AMD Raven 2 GPU in your laptop. It doesn't look like a very strong graphics card; and might just not be strong enough for processing all the graphics that FG throws at it (especially for larger maps).

The RAM looks fine. This seems to be more of a GPU bottleneck scenario.

Regards,
JPG

[Odeatho]

It looks like you have an AMD Raven 2 GPU in your laptop. It doesn't look like a very strong graphics card; and might just not be strong enough for processing all the graphics that FG throws at it (especially for larger maps).

The RAM looks fine. This seems to be more of a GPU bottleneck scenario.

Regards,
JPG

Oh boy, that’s not good news. I purchased the laptop specifically for using FG. Is there a recommend minimum specs or graphics card for FG.

[Trenloe]

As Moon Wizard mentions - Fantasy Grounds "Not Responding" is not the same as a "Crash". We need to work out why FG is taking a while to process tasks.

When running FG, open the Windows Task Manager and look at the "GPU" entry on the "Performance" tab. If there are more than one GPU entries (e.g. "GPU 0" and "GPU 1") have a look at the "Processes" tab and see which "GPU Engine" us being used by FantasyGrounds.exe

[LordEntrails]

Oh boy, that’s not good news. I purchased the laptop specifically for using FG. Is there a recommend minimum specs or graphics card for FG.
Current estimated system requirements for FGU are here and say;
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50373-FGU-Early-Access-Overview-and-Download

System Requirements


OS: Windows 8+ (64-bit only), macOS 10.13+ (64-bit only), Ubuntu 16.04+ (64-bit only)
Memory: 4GB min, 8GB recommended
Disk: 2GB-20GB (depending on DLC purchases)
Graphics: DX10 support, Video memory (2GB min, 4GB recommended)

[Odeatho]

Thank you all for your assistance. I’m getting a better laptop.

[Trenloe]

I’m getting a better laptop.
I'd recommend at least having a look at what I mentioned in post #27 above. We haven't identified exactly what the issue is. A laptop with 8GB of memory and a CPU/GPU pairing released in 2020 should be able to run FG Classic.

[Odeatho]

I'd recommend at least having a look at what I mentioned in post #27 above. We haven't identified exactly what the issue is. A laptop with 8GB of memory and a CPU/GPU pairing released in 2020 should be able to run FG Classic.

When I checked the last time it froze there was only 1 entry under CPU. I did return my laptop this afternoon. I’m going to try and get something better.

[Odeatho]

It looks like you have an AMD Raven 2 GPU in your laptop. It doesn't look like a very strong graphics card; and might just not be strong enough for processing all the graphics that FG throws at it (especially for larger maps).

The RAM looks fine. This seems to be more of a GPU bottleneck scenario.

Regards,
JPG

Can I ask how you determined it’s an ‘AMD Raven 2 GPU’? I’m absolutely clueless with computers. I’d like to avoid buying another PC/laptop that’s insufficient for Fantasy Grounds, as I use it mostly for running FG. As far as I could tell, the last laptop I purchased met the recommended requirements, but I had no way of knowing a Raven graphics card might not cut it. Is there anything in particular I should be asking for when I go shopping for a new PC/laptop? I’d like to hopefully avoid going through this again. I’d appreciate any advice. Thanks.

[Moon Wizard]

I guessed that it was a Raven 2 GPU by the graphics chipset and BIOS part number in the information you posted earlier. Also, when I searched on the BIOS part number the Raven 2 came up. There's not a lot of information, so some of it is guesswork. That's why Trenloe was suggesting getting to the bottom of the issue. Plus, the system specifications are not an exact science, and issues can vary by machine. However, in general, we have not been receiving specific reports of hangs like you originally reported (except for in cases of too many assets or too much data, which is not the issue in your case).

In general, laptops that are targeted as thin-and-light options will vary quite a bit on their ability to handle demanding applications. I have a 3.5 year old Dell XPS 15 that does okay; but I know some of the really lightweight ones tend to have lower end graphics to reduce power consumption/heat/noise and/or will share system memory with CPU. The named NVidia GeForce and AMD Radeon chips tend to do pretty well in general (as opposed to integrated graphics options).

Regards,
JPG

[Odeatho]

I guessed that it was a Raven 2 GPU by the graphics chipset and BIOS part number in the information you posted earlier. Also, when I searched on the BIOS part number the Raven 2 came up. There's not a lot of information, so some of it is guesswork. That's why Trenloe was suggesting getting to the bottom of the issue. Plus, the system specifications are not an exact science, and issues can vary by machine. However, in general, we have not been receiving specific reports of hangs like you originally reported (except for in cases of too many assets or too much data, which is not the issue in your case).

In general, laptops that are targeted as thin-and-light options will vary quite a bit on their ability to handle demanding applications. I have a 3.5 year old Dell XPS 15 that does okay; but I know some of the really lightweight ones tend to have lower end graphics to reduce power consumption/heat/noise and/or will share system memory with CPU. The named NVidia GeForce and AMD Radeon chips tend to do pretty well in general (as opposed to integrated graphics options).

Regards,
JPG

I’m not opposed to getting a desktop PC. Would that likely perform better with FG, as long as it meets the recommended requirements? I’m not sure exactly what you mean by integrated graphics options. Thanks.

[Sulimo]

Integrated vs discrete graphics.

Basically think of it this way, integrated graphics are integrated (a part of) the chipset. The chipset is the part of the system that handles communications from the CPU to the rest of the system (RAM, hard drives, USB ports, keyboards, mice, touch screens, etc.).

A discrete GPU is a discrete (separate) chip on the motherboard that is usually something like an Nvidia or AMD Radeon chip (I mention Radeon specifically because AMD also makes CPUs(Ryzen)).

Integrated would mean something like Intel IRIS (forget all the names Intel has used over the years), which are typically lower performing graphics chips. They are low power (like Moon Wizard mentioned) and are designed for battery life, not necessarily performance. Integrated GPUs typically are good for things like web browsing, office apps, and streaming, but may not necessarily do well with games (depends on the chip). Depends on the game though, something like Candy Crush may run fine, but you would not play something like Doom on it.

Typically integrated graphucs chips will use some of the RAM for graphics memory, taking that away from the total. So if for instance, a computer had 4GB of RAM, and an integrated graphics chip, it might use 512MB (1/2GB) of the RAM for the Graphics chip, leaving the computer with 3.5GB left over for applications. This could cause issues if you barely meet the min spec called for by an app. Say an app says it needs 4GB RAM, technically the computer has 4GB, but 1/2GB is being used for Video memory, so it actually does not meet the minimum spec any more. This is one of the reasons Moon Wizard mentioned that it is not an exact science, there are a lot of variables that could change things.


To throw a wrench into it all, AMD does integrate Radeon graphics directly onto the CPU (instead of the chipset) package as well, and those are very good chips, still not the caliber of a desktop card, but they work very well for laptops and most games (they probably won't play the latest high end games). Intel just never had a great GPU team (that may have turned around with the new Tiger Lake CPUs, but time will tell).

It's not an easy thing to say what will work for you, there are a lot of factors that play into how a computer performs.

[Odeatho]

Thank you for that explanation and taking the time to do so.