Help Needed: Turn Undead

[Hyperventilator]

Our group seems to have trouble automating the Cleric's Turn Undead.

I tried implementing it myself but even though I can force the target to make a saving throw, it doesn't set the effect on the target on a failed save.

We can't find an example of an implementation of Turn Undead anywhere online which seems odd.

There's a screenshot attached. What are we doing wrong?

EDIT: D&D 5E

[LordEntrails]

MOD: moved to 5E forums :)

See https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?27321-Effects-The-Complete-Cleric-Package

In short, take the Channel Divinity feature and drag it to the to the Actions on the Actions Tab. Rename it to Turn Undead and put it in a group called Channel Divinity and set the group to have 2 uses per long rest.

I'm sure one of the many character creation videos also shows this, but no idea which one, sorry :(

[Hyperventilator]

MOD: moved to 5E forums :)

See https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?27321-Effects-The-Complete-Cleric-Package

In short, take the Channel Divinity feature and drag it to the to the Actions on the Actions Tab. Rename it to Turn Undead and put it in a group called Channel Divinity and set the group to have 2 uses per long rest.

I'm sure one of the many character creation videos also shows this, but no idea which one, sorry :(

Sorry, I don't understand. Where do I drag it *from*? Because if you mean the Class Description, it just makes the same thing that I already made, and it doesn't work either. Maybe this is a Unity-related bug? IDK. Can someone try this on their own copy?

There's also a xml file in that thread. How do you use it / open it? What is it for?

[Zacchaeus]

Download the xml file from the thread that LE linked and then start a campaign, click on the PC button and then on the blue import character button and then on the blue import character file button and navigate to where you saved the xml. Select it and then click select and it will load the character into your campaign. Click the character and go to the actions tab to see how all of the effects for the Cleric have been set up.

Some of the videos linked here https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?55797-How-do-I-in-Unity&p=492112#post492112 will also help, particularly video eight and three. Video eight in this series should also help https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?46965-New-Character-Creation-Videos

[Hyperventilator]

Download the xml file from the thread that LE linked and then start a campaign, click on the PC button and then on the blue import character button and then on the blue import character file button and navigate to where you saved the xml. Select it and then click select and it will load the character into your campaign. Click the character and go to the actions tab to see how all of the effects for the Cleric have been set up.

Some of the videos linked here https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?55797-How-do-I-in-Unity&p=492112#post492112 will also help, particularly video eight and three. Video eight in this series should also help https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?46965-New-Character-Creation-Videos

OK, I did just that. But the example cleric's Turn Undead doesn't work properly, either. It does force the saving throw but it doesn't set the Turned condition automatically according to the result of that roll. And if I press the effect button, it sets the Turned condition to the target regardless of if it succeeded in the save or not.

We had 12 zombies in Sunday's game. The cleric targeted 9 of them. He got the zombies to roll but I had to manually check the results and manually set the Turned condition on them accordingly. Is this how it's supposed to work?

[Zacchaeus]

Go into options and make sure that you have remove targets on miss set to multi. Then select all of the targets and make the saving throw and then click on the turned effect. It will place the turned effect only on the targets that failed their save. The turned condition (or any other condition or effect that happens on a failed save) is not automatically placed on the target - you need to click the button to do it.

[Hyperventilator]

Go into options and make sure that you have remove targets on miss set to multi. Then select all of the targets and make the saving throw and then click on the turned effect. It will place the turned effect only on the targets that failed their save. The turned condition (or any other condition or effect that happens on a failed save) is not automatically placed on the target - you need to click the button to do it.

Oh. Ooooohhh! Is this common knowlege? One would assume that the result of a saving throw has a mechanical effect in the automation. We've spent hours trying to figure this out. Anyway, thank you for the clarity.

[LordEntrails]

Is this common knowlege?
I had the knowledge, but I'm uncommon! Just ask my mother :)

In general FG does not automatically apply damage or effects after an attack or save roll. This is because all to often their are exceptions, or someone forgot something or it would make house rules harder to implement.

So, just like you have to roll damage when an attack hits, you have to apply effects after the save fails. The option Mr Z mentions helps make this easy inthe majority of cases.

[Hyperventilator]

I had the knowledge, but I'm uncommon! Just ask my mother :)

In general FG does not automatically apply damage or effects after an attack or save roll. This is because all to often their are exceptions, or someone forgot something or it would make house rules harder to implement.

So, just like you have to roll damage when an attack hits, you have to apply effects after the save fails. The option Mr Z mentions helps make this easy inthe majority of cases.

To me, the now obvious difference in damage and effect functionality regarding saves is that for damage FG takes the result of the saving throw into account. I feel like there should be a toggle to apply linked effect on a failed save in the same place where saving throw info is inserted - just like there's a toggle for half or full damage on a successful save.

[Zacchaeus]

To me, the now obvious difference in damage and effect functionality regarding saves is that for damage FG takes the result of the saving throw into account. I feel like there should be a toggle to apply linked effect on a failed save in the same place where saving throw info is inserted - just like there's a toggle for half or full damage on a successful save.

No, you do not want damage to be applied automatically after a failed saving throw - or anything else. There are many exceptions to the general in 5e and if you automated that then you cause more issues having to undo it. For example a creature with Legendary resistance could decide to pass the save on a failed save; various classes have abilities which allow them to take less damage on failed saving throws, various creatures have other abilities which can have an effect and I'm sure there are a number of spells that can also have an effect.

So, whilst in the very narrow circumstances you are looking at, it seems like a top notch idea - overall it isn't.

[Hyperventilator]

No, you do not want damage to be applied automatically after a failed saving throw - or anything else. There are many exceptions to the general in 5e and if you automated that then you cause more issues having to undo it. For example a creature with Legendary resistance could decide to pass the save on a failed save; various classes have abilities which allow them to take less damage on failed saving throws, various creatures have other abilities which can have an effect and I'm sure there are a number of spells that can also have an effect.

So, whilst in the very narrow circumstances you are looking at, it seems like a top notch idea - overall it isn't.

You misunderstand. What I mean is, you would still have to press the effect button but it would take into account which of your current targets passed and which targets failed their saves. Just like with "apply half damage on your next damage roll with a successful save" but this would be "don't apply effect on your next effect button press with a successful save".

[Zacchaeus]

You misunderstand. What I mean is, you would still have to press the effect button but it would take into account which of your current targets passed and which targets failed their saves. Just like with "apply half damage on your next damage roll with a successful save" but this would be "don't apply effect on your next effect button press with a successful save".

It does that now. As I said above make sure that the option "Target: Remove on Miss" is set to "multi" and when you press the effect it will only apply the effect to those targets that failed their saving throw. This is true for anything that is applied after a failed save. See the attached screenshot. Bob has tried to turn 5 Zombies - 4 of them succeeded on their save and only one failed. When the turned effect was applied it was only placed on the one that failed.

[Hyperventilator]

It does that now. As I said above make sure that the option "Target: Remove on Miss" is set to "multi" and when you press the effect it will only apply the effect to those targets that failed their saving throw. This is true for anything that is applied after a failed save. See the attached screenshot. Bob has tried to turn 5 Zombies - 4 of them succeeded on their save and only one failed. When the turned effect was applied it was only placed on the one that failed.

Yes, I saw it before and I understood how it works. Thank you for that. However, I can't help that it left a me feeling like it's a convoluted solution that's neither user-friendly nor intuitive - even if long-time users had grown accustomed to it. I'm saying that there's room for improvement - a solution that wouldn't require toggling options situationally.

[Zacchaeus]

Yes, I saw it before and I understood how it works. Thank you for that. However, I can't help that it left a me feeling like it's a convoluted solution that's neither user-friendly nor intuitive - even if long-time users had grown accustomed to it. I'm saying that there's room for improvement - a solution that wouldn't require toggling options situationally.

At the risk of just repeating the same thing over and over; that is not a good idea.

As mentioned in several posts above automatically adding an effect or something else following a failed save will cause a lot of problems because of the many exceptions that can mean the effect shouldn't be applied.

[LordEntrails]

. I'm saying that there's room for improvement - a solution that wouldn't require toggling options situationally.
I've never changed that option. I have it set to Multi and have never found a reason to change the setting. When would you ever not want it set to Multi?

I think we just aren't quite getting your use case/steps.

[Hyperventilator]

At the risk of just repeating the same thing over and over; that is not a good idea.

As mentioned in several posts above automatically adding an effect or something else following a failed save will cause a lot of problems because of the many exceptions that can mean the effect shouldn't be applied.

You'd still have to press the effect button in my proposed solution. So luckily that wouldn't be a problem.

[Hyperventilator]

I've never changed that option. I have it set to Multi and have never found a reason to change the setting. When would you ever not want it set to Multi?

I think we just aren't quite getting your use case/steps.

Not everyone uses Fantasy Grounds the same way, however. It's an option, so inherently different people prefer different settings.

Use case / steps:

1. Prefer to have option "Target: Remove on miss" on "Off"
2. Decide to use the Turn Undead feature
3. Open Options
4. Switch option "Target: Remove on miss" to "Multi" [which you learn to do for Turn Undead's sake only by making forum posts about why Turn Undead doesn't seem to work (not being bitter/snarky, I'm merely talking about user experience here)]
5. Press "Cast"
6. Press "Effect"
7. Switch option "Target: Remove on miss" back to "Off"
8. Close Options

In my solution, the steps would be:

1. Prefer to have option "Target: Remove on miss" on "Off"
2. Decide to use the Turn Undead feature
3. Press "Cast"
4. Press "Effect"

[LordEntrails]

Not everyone uses Fantasy Grounds the same way, however. It's an option, so inherently different people prefer different settings.

Use case / steps:

1. Prefer to have option "Target: Remove on miss" on "Off"
2. Decide to use the Turn Undead feature
3. Open Options
4. Switch option "Target: Remove on miss" to "Multi" [which you learn to do for Turn Undead's sake only by making forum posts about why Turn Undead doesn't seem to work (not being bitter/snarky, I'm merely talking about user experience here)]
5. Press "Cast"
6. Press "Effect"
7. Switch option "Target: Remove on miss" back to "Off"
8. Close Options

In my solution, the steps would be:

1. Prefer to have option "Target: Remove on miss" on "Off"
2. Decide to use the Turn Undead feature
3. Press "Cast"
4. Press "Effect"
Absolutely different people use FG differently. My point wasn't that I could see why you would want to turn it on for the Turn Undead (or fireball, or web, or...) spell, but I've never seen (my use case) a reason to have the option "Off" or "On". Once I learned about "Multi" I've set that on all my campaigns and it's what I always use.

So the question is more, and this is just for my understanding (again, not saying you are doing anything wrong), why would you want it "Off" in the first place?

[Hyperventilator]

Absolutely different people use FG differently. My point wasn't that I could see why you would want to turn it on for the Turn Undead (or fireball, or web, or...) spell, but I've never seen (my use case) a reason to have the option "Off" or "On". Once I learned about "Multi" I've set that on all my campaigns and it's what I always use.

So the question is more, and this is just for my understanding (again, not saying you are doing anything wrong), why would you want it "Off" in the first place?

If you want your character to retain its target after a missed attack, you would want it Off. Everybody in my group has it on "Off" so that they don't have to re-target their target every round if they miss. It's a player preference.

If there was no reason whatsoever to have it Off (or On), it wouldn't have been implemented as an option.

[Zacchaeus]

If you have Remove Target on Miss set to Multi it only fires if you have multiple targets. If you are targetting a single enemy and you miss it doesn't do anything with the targetting. Setting the option to Multi will only remove targets on a miss when multiple targets are selected so that things like effects or saving throws can automatically function. I'm actually not really sure why this option exists TBH; it seems to me that the only logical one is to set it to multi; and so the other two are superfluous.

[Hyperventilator]

If you have Remove Target on Miss set to Multi it only fires if you have multiple targets. If you are targetting a single enemy and you miss it doesn't do anything with the targetting. Setting the option to Multi will only remove targets on a miss when multiple targets are selected so that things like effects or saving throws can automatically function. I'm actually not really sure why this option exists TBH; it seems to me that the only logical one is to set it to multi; and so the other two are superfluous.

Wow, I had no idea it worked that way. Maybe it should be on Multi by default in that case?

[Zacchaeus]

Wow, I had no idea it worked that way. Maybe it should be on Multi by default in that case?

Multi is the default.

[Hyperventilator]

Multi is the default.

Is it? I've only ever started one campaign and that was months ago. Perhaps default isn't enough then because everone in our group has set it to off without realizing the full effects.

Reading the wiki for that section, perhaps this is what might have thrown us off: It only discusses the effects of missed attacks but there's nothing about it affecting saving throw results.

https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/786723/5E+Campaign+Options

I still think my proposed method of handling the save and effect would be better, though. Less chances of the wrong setting in options messing up anything, and one could retain all target selections regardless of the saving throw results.

[LordEntrails]

Is it?
Yes it is. Create a new campaign, you will see the option is set to "Multi". I just did, it is the default.

As always, you can certainly add your suggestion to the Wish List.

[Zacchaeus]

Ok, we'll need to agree to disagree then.

[Hyperventilator]

Ok, we'll need to agree to disagree then.

That's fair.