SWADE Rule Question: Hindrance suffered as Injury

[Galdor]

Hi,
when a Wild Card gains a Hindrance as a result of the Injury Table, that Hindrance gives to the Wild Card points to spend to raise an attribute, gain one Edge, etc - like when a Hindrance is taken in the Character Creation phase (as for rules stated in the paragraph "Hindrances", at p. 9 of SWADE Rulebook)?

Thank you in advance!

[mac40k]

No, you only get points for Hindrances during character creation. In fact, the prior edition (SWD) noted that you could take more Hindrances during chargen if you thought they helped define your character concept, but you still only received 4 points regardless. In practice, I never saw anyone do this and that verbiage was removed from SWADE. Hindrances received during play like losing a limb or an eye are just things the character has to deal with. Note that if the player does a good job of playing up these Hindrances, the GM can always award them bennies to help mitigate the impact of them (see SWADE pg. 22).

[Galdor]

No, you only get points for Hindrances during character creation. In fact, the prior edition (SWD) noted that you could take more Hindrances during chargen if you thought they helped define your character concept, but you still only received 4 points regardless. In practice, I never saw anyone do this and that verbiage was removed from SWADE. Hindrances received during play like losing a limb or an eye are just things the character has to deal with. Note that if the player does a good job of playing up these Hindrances, the GM can always award them bennies to help mitigate the impact of them (see SWADE pg. 22).

Thank you mac40k. I guess yours is a personal interpretation of the rules, or is there anywhere an official source for what you wrote?

Additional question: could a character spend 1 advance to remove a major Hindrance (even one suffered as Injury)?

[ApesAmongUs]

Theoretically you could remove a hindrance, for some. Like getting a Guts injury that lowers an attribute just lowers that attribute, it doesn't grant you a "-1 trait hindrance", so you can increase that trait, but it's still limited by the number of increases per rank. Likewise, you can buy off a gained hindrance if you would be allowed to buy off the same hindrance if it were purchased from the start. Generally, you would need some in setting reason for doing so.

Now, it is also reasonable that you might hate any of these answers and wish to give characters crippled in this way some kind of compensation. I'm guessing that is a very, very common house rule. I'd probably grant it after waiting some period of time - "you have learned to compensate for your <insert disability here>, your ability to <insert other thing here> has sharpened".

But then, i don't track XP/advances separately for different characters in a campaign, so what do I know.

[Mgrancey]

No, no points generally Speaking because the Healing power has a Mod @ 20 PP to remove crippling injuries.

House rules are of course your choice.

[YggBjorn]

Thank you mac40k. I guess yours is a personal interpretation of the rules, or is there anywhere an official source for what you wrote?

Additional question: could a character spend 1 advance to remove a major Hindrance (even one suffered as Injury)?

From the SWADE book, page 9:

Hindrances are flaws, drawbacks, or dark secrets drawn from a character’s backstory.
You can take up to 4 points of Hindrances. A Major Hindrance is worth 2 points, and a Minor is worth 1. A hero could thus take two Major Hindrances, four Minor, or any combination that adds up to 4 points. (You can take more Hindrances if you want but the maximum benefit is 4 points!)
I believe the stipulation about maximum number of points holds no matter how the hindrance was gained. Personally I would rule if the player didn't take up to a total of 4 Hindrance points during character creation, and in the course of play was injured and gained a Hindrance, they could then have additional Hindrance points not to exceed the 4 total allowed and use them alongside the benefits given during the next Advancement.

To answer your second question, from the SWADE book, page 54:

An Advance lets a character do one of the following. Remember that no Trait may be raised above its racial maximum (usually d12).
• Gain a new Edge.
• Increase a skill that is equal to or greater than its linked attribute one die type.
• Increase two skills that are lower than their linked attributes by one die type each (including new skills the character didn’t have before at d4).
• Increase one attribute by a die type. This option may only be taken once per Rank (see Rank, below). Legendary characters may raise an attribute every other Advance, up to the racial maximum.
• Permanently remove a Minor Hindrance, or reduce a Major Hindrance to a Minor (if possible). With the GM’s permission, and if it makes sense, two Advances may be saved up and spent to remove a Major Hindrance. The player and GM should work out how and when this happens. Perhaps the shocking death of an ally triggers a change in attitude, the hero puts real effort into improving harmful behavior, or might even seek professional help during downtime between missions.
Per Rules As Written (RAW) it would take two Advancements to remove a Major Hindrance.

I hope that helps.

[Galdor]

To answer your second question, from the SWADE book, page 54:

Per Rules As Written (RAW) it would take two Advancements to remove a Major Hindrance.

I hope that helps.

Thank you, it helps: per rules as written you may remove Hindrances spending Advancements without any limitation/condition/specification, therefore also Hindrances caused by Injuries!

Unfortunately it looks like no rule could anwer my initial question:

when a Wild Card gains a Hindrance as a result of the Injury Table, that Hindrance gives to the Wild Card points to spend to raise an attribute, gain one Edge, etc - like when a Hindrance is taken in the Character Creation phase (as for rules stated in the paragraph "Hindrances", at p. 9 of SWADE Rulebook)?

[IceBear]

The only time the rules talk about getting points from Hindrances is in the Character Creation section. It seems logical to me that if an injury gives you a Hindrance no points because it's not character creation.

If you need an official answer you really should ask this question on the PEG forums as this is a Fantasy Grounds forum populated by people using FG to play Savage Worlds whereas the PEG forums actually have people who are official SW rule providers.

[IceBear]

Nm...I see someone (I assume you) has asked the question there. I have never read a rule that said you get points from a Hindrance gained by Injury so I (and my players) have played like mac40k

[Mgrancey]

Thank you, it helps: per rules as written you may remove Hindrances spending Advancements without any limitation/condition/specification, therefore also Hindrances caused by Injuries!

Unfortunately it looks like no rule could anwer my initial question:

I am confused, the official answer is no as several of us have posted. PEG is good about being straightforward with their writing and at no pointing when talking about gaining permanent injuries do they mention about gaining more points.

That being said, like others have stated if you want to house rule that it is okay. I have given players edges and hindrances as rewards, just recently gave a player the Enemy hindrance. He was playing his character and badly meshed with an NPC. So boom, that guy hates him now. Another is on verge of getting Connections

[mac40k]

Nm...I see someone (I assume you) has asked the question there. I have never read a rule that said you get points from a Hindrance gained by Injury so I (and my players) have played like mac40k

It just doesn't make narrative sense that a character receives a grievous injury to the head resulting in a Hideous Scar (game effects= Ugly Hindrance), but somehow also just became better at Electronics and Repair as a result. Also, unless they fail the Incapacitation roll, the injury will eventually go away, so presumably the associated gains would magically vanish as well, which makes them even harder to rationalize.

[ApesAmongUs]

It just doesn't make narrative sense that a character receives a grievous injury to the head resulting in a Hideous Scar (game effects= Ugly Hindrance), but somehow also just became better at Electronics and Repair as a result.

As a reaction to becoming scarred, the character becomes more withdrawn, allowing more time to devote to his pursuit of Electronics and Repair.

Seems easy enough. If that doesn't work for you, then what is your justification that a player selecting Hideous Scar as a starting Hindrance would have bonus points to spend on Electronics and Repair? Point building characters already has weird associations built into it.

[IceBear]

Sure...but that would take time. That's why it makes sense during character creation as up until the game starts he or she have lived with that Hindrance.

I understand the point and if there was sufficient downtime I could be swayed by that argument from a player. I just don't think that was the intent of the rules...especially with the ways available to overcome them depending on the setting

[mac40k]

PEG as a general practice tends to write the rules to explain what you can or should do, not what you can't. The rules only reference getting points for taking Hindrances during chargen (up to a max of 4 points regardless of the number of Hindrances taken). The Hindrances themselves don't grant those points, the process of chargen does. The Injury table contains results that (most often) temporarily assigns Hindrances as a consequence. Just because it doesn't explicitly state that you do not get points from these Hindrances that can be spent in the same way as Hindrances taken as part of chargen in no way implies that therefore they do convey those points. PEG just doesn't write rules that way. If they intended for you to get some type of reward to offset the Injury result, they would have stated it.

[kronovan]

Thank you, it helps: per rules as written you may remove Hindrances spending Advancements without any limitation/condition/specification, therefore also Hindrances caused by Injuries!

Unfortunately it looks like no rule could anwer my initial question:

The rules make it very clear on page 9, as YggBorn already quoted, that you can only ever gain a maximum of 4 points from hindrances - the 4 point limit doesn't just apply to PC creation. I've seen this question posted a number of time at the Peginc.com forums over the past decade and the answer has always been the same; a PC doesn't get additional advancement points for hindrances taken after creation. The rules are finely tuned around the number of points PCs get as they advance through the ranks, so allowing players loopholes to gain more risks ending up with highly unbalanced PCs by Heroic rank, and even worse by Legendary.


...Personally I would rule if the player didn't take up to a total of 4 Hindrance points during character creation, and in the course of play was injured and gained a Hindrance, they could then have additional Hindrance points not to exceed the 4 total allowed and use them alongside the benefits given during the next Advancement.

While I'll agree that's a terrific idea and one I've personally houseruled it into some of my campaigns, it is none the less a houserule.

[YggBjorn]

While I'll agree that's a terrific idea and one I've personally houseruled it into some of my campaigns, it is none the less a houserule.

I agree. I intended it as a houserule however I probably wasn't clear enough. From experience though, my players take all 4 Hindrance points at character creation so I haven't had to use the previously mentioned houserule. Thanks for the compliment on it being a terrific rule! Great minds think alike!

[kronovan]

I agree. I intended it as a houserule however I probably wasn't clear enough.
NP I figured as much. I just commented more for clarity, as one of the SWADE rules has appeared to be put under a magnifying glass in this thread - with a glass that isn't particularly clear or non-tinted.


From experience though, my players take all 4 Hindrance points at character creation so I haven't had to use the previously mentioned houserule.
Yep, almost always the case in my campaigns saw well. I highly encourage my players to take at least 4 points of Hindrance, but that's mostly because I GM around them a bit like FATE Aspects. In that if a player roleplays to them they earn bennies as per the rules, and if the Adventure deck is in use and it's a major enough of a hindrance, they can draw a card. I also at times use major hindrances as hooks that PC-centric adventures are written around.

I'm very pleased that Pinnacle Ent. decided to expand the number of hindrances with SWADE and that many that they added are top quality.

[mac40k]

For those still curious, question asked and answered on the official PEG forums. https://www.pegforum.com/forum/savage-worlds/official-answers-on-core-rules/43212-hindrance-suffered-as-injury

Hindrances gained in play do not provide points.

[YggBjorn]

Very good! That settles that then. I think I will adjust my thoughts on the matter to follow along with the official answer. I try to keep with RAW and Official errata as much as possible, for every rpg, boardgame, ccg, etc., that I play.