Feature Request: Sound

[DM_BK]

I know you get this request from time to time and I know you had to pull the sound features due to early in issues. Great, I understand how that can happen. But I am going to ask again anyway.

I am not asking for sounds of dice rolling or anything like that. I want the host(GM) to be able to send sound clips out to clients(players).

FG2 is great, having met most needs fully... but I really miss being able to send sound effects out.

I could accept that this request isn't practical as I understand how the business of software works....BUT I also happen to know exactly how easy it would be for this feature to be added in... thus its hard for me to ignore this request as being impractical.

Don't try anything fancy, just transmit the file and play it back. Limit it to .wav and .wma files.... its easy, it would take me three days.

So 3 days x 20 [speed at which you guys release things], we should get this by next year.... mean joke, I am sorry..... FG2 is great! :)

BK

[Dachannien]

Personally, I would suggest .ogg, since you can do that for free and it'll be smaller than .wav. But there may be filesharing issues to take into account here. With map images, it's pretty easy to justify FG sending those images to other players, because there are packages like Dundjinni that allow the player to create and share maps. It would be an obvious and legitimate use that doesn't create any copyright concerns. On the other hand, very few people have both the access to software and the expertise required to make their own sound effects, and it's likely that FG would end up being used to share music instead of custom content. Enter the RIAA, chaos ensues.

In reality, I don't think it would be a problem, but SmiteWorks has leaned toward the safe side in the past with things like OGL, so it wouldn't surprise me if they did the same thing here.

[Archmage]

Well, if Smiteworks is too scared of the big bad RIAA somebody else could always write a little app just for streaming sound effects. There are other table top RPG apps that do sound effects, so using the RIAA as an excuse is kind of lame. I bet it's more likely they just don't think it would be used enough to justify the development time.

Personally I would use it to play background music and ambient sound more than anything else. Having some appropriate ambient sound helps immerse the player in the game. For example, the sounds of crickets and tree frogs during a night scene really sells the darkness much better than just changing the UI colors.

[Tokuriku]

Yes a mod could be nice for that :)

[Astinus]

There are other table top RPG apps that do sound effects, so using the RIAA as an excuse is kind of lame. I bet it's more likely they just don't think it would be used enough to justify the development time.

Personally I would use it to play background music and ambient sound more than anything else. Having some appropriate ambient sound helps immerse the player in the game. For example, the sounds of crickets and tree frogs during a night scene really sells the darkness much better than just changing the UI colors.

Exactly. It's all about immersion. And sound is one of the best ways to do that. It's one of the few things that competitors do better than FG. Maybe a poll to see who would use sound?

[TarynWinterblade]

My two cents on this...

First and foremost: streaming music of any form to my players would end up getting me shot for multiple reasons - they like to have their own music playing while we play, and at least one of them is on a dialup connection.

Second: As has been said in the past, FG doesn't entirely need the feature when you can use an app like Ventrilo for full voice communications and any sound streaming you may need. They've already put the work in and they did it rather well. The developers at SmiteWorks would have to put in a rather large chunk of programming time towards that to get anywhere near as good.

As an analogy: we already have a wheel, we don't need an FG-stylized wheel that would probably be subpar anyway.

Just a quick edit: I don't mean any disrespect to the Smiteworks team by this, it's just that FG is a VGT, not a voice chat / sound streaming program. Adding in the functionality would be difficult to do on a level that everybody would be content with (in the end, we're all somewhat picky, y'know...)

[sunbeam60]

we already have a wheel, we don't need an FG-stylized wheel that would probably be subpar anyway.
Hear hear!

[Oberoten]

Hear hear!

We can't We can't. :)

... On a more serious note though, there is a bit of a bandwidth problem with sound. Sounds, even at a low quality takes a lot of space and time to transfer.

I'd LOVE to be able to playback small soundbites etc, but as mentioned there is a copyright problem here. Maybe if the sounds were limited to a maximum size / lenth that'd satisfy the RIAA and others.

[mr_h]

There are programs that can handle that. Ventrillo can play sound files. Someone also pointed out an RPG Sound program a while back, a sort of bank of sounds. I'll be darned if I can remember the name...

Edit: Found it: https://www.rpgsoundmixer.com/
Haven't used it myself though.

[heruca]

There are many websites that let you download royalty free audio clips for personal use, so copyright needn't be a concern when considering adding sound support to FG.

[VenomousFiligree]

There are many websites that let you download royalty free audio clips for personal use, so copyright needn't be a concern when considering adding sound support to FG.

Too true, try a google search - free sound effects.

I'm not after playing music, or voice chat. Just the ability to play short sound clips - a wolf howling, a gun shot, this can add immensely to the atmosphere of the game.

:) MB

[DM_BK]

Responding to different posts here...

First: I picked the sound formats because they are native and easy to use in the framework FG was built on. OGG and MP3 would be GREAT but it complicates things. My point was to make the devs consider how little it would really take to add limited sound in (3 days was a lot long then they should need).

Second: I break copywrite every time I scan something in with out permission.... I don't even know why were talking about the RIAA here... FG isnt including any sound files in the app so they aren't at any risk. And on top of that other VTTs do this already.

Third: If you have a modem user you would be WISE to not use sound in YOUR game. Why you and your user gotta limit my game?

Fourth: I do use Ventrilo. It cant send sound or I would already be using it. The file has to be on the drive of the user in order to trigger it.

Finally: when used correctedly proper use of sound files really add to a session.

Why the heck would anyone argue against adding features that are completely opitional if you use it in your game?!?!?!

Again, this is simple and easy to add...

[Astinus]

To follow up on Dm_BK's rebuttal, the other main argument posited here - against sound - is the "don't reinvent the wheel", "don't divert developer resources" argument.

But adding the ability to send sound effects or ambient sounds isn't reinventing the wheel. We shouldn't have to install, learn and run a specific voice program just to have the copyright-free sound of swords clashing or a door closing.

Besides, Ventrillo is primarily a voice chat program, not a sound effects program. If Smiteworks tried to add voice chat, then I'd say, "don't reinvent the wheel".

But adding sound effects - a feature already present in other VTTs - is a natural progression for a VTT, something that will, within a few years, be considered a standard feature, and is, for other VTTs, already considered standard. It's part of the core function of providing an immersive online gaming experience. It's not an unnecessary add on already done well by a range of other programs (like, for example, voice is).

So why the resistance? It would be optional for those with bandwidth/copyright concerns, and isn't technically insurmountable so it shouldn't overly sap developer resources.

[Sigurd]

Sound affects are neat for precisely 3 listens and then they become trite. Besides a DM would have to spend a lot of attention getting his 'timing' right so that they would make sense. His players, all reading at their own speed, going to the fridge etc.... would not have an optimal experience anyway. Speaking for just me, I can't imagine building a varied and satisfying sound library when I'm scrambling all over just to make good graphics.

The only way I could see sounds used is if you could tie them to pins in the map and they would activate from local files passed to the player with the module. I can't imagine any other way to do it.

Even this has problems because, in game time, sound is probably the most shared experience. A wolf howl attached to a portion of the dungeon would be scary, perhaps once. Then the game conversation would get interrupted by the first discoverer saying "Hey double click on the tree with the owl!"

I'd rather write better and tell stories that are more illustrative, then rely on gimmicks.


S



RE voice and steaming music - This is an often recurring question. It would be nice if they duplicated the efforts of other people just so it would say Fantasy Grounds on the splashscreen.

My thoughts are:

1. Why? Does Teamspeak not work for you?

2. You realise that it wouldn't be a money making feature for them when a) their competition is free b) If they charged a dollar for it users could say "I'd rather use teamspeak!" There are already people harping about the very reasonable (IMHO) price of the software.

3. Why do you want to complicate the networking? If FG goes down because of something it already does, its worth fixing. If Teamspeak goes down, at least you know its teamspeak - and someone else can worry about that. Having a seperate sound server that is not the DM shares bandwidth far better than saddling the DM's connection with everything.
Music\sound bandwidth is a concern for program design. I hope they never waste programmer time on this unless every other bug is fixed.

4 Increasing the expected bandwidth of the program means fewer users can use all the features. I personally wouldn't use this program with dial up but I wouldn't want to build features that absolutely preclude a phone modem. Rather, try and make every communication as efficient as possible and hope people have fun\buy the software.


If you want to all be listening to the same music - send each player a bunch of MP3s or stream the music yourself. IMHO sound should not be a high priority because it doesn't help Smiteworks when there are other free options. It helps smiteworks to have more time to concentrate on core features.

/rant

[Ram Tyr]

I want to note that I would much rather Smiteworks spends its development time on functions that are currently unavailable or sorely in need of improvement, rather than replacing functionality available via a third party application.

This is just my opinion and others may disagree, but in terms of priorities, I would rank this fairly low. I am much more enthusiastic about seeing support for continued improvement in dice rolling, the combat tracker, map functionality, masking, drawing, etc.

Again, it is not that I think this idea is bad so much as there are other functions I would rather see before Smiteworks turns to this one. There are many outstanding requests that have merit and prioritizing them is key.

I am looking forward to the day when FG does what everyone wants, just the way they want it done! Sadly, that day is not here. (Consider that development time is so squashed documentation requests continue!)

Later.

[Oberoten]

Well, honestly. I want sound. It'd be the final spice on it all.
Especially if I could script some of it's behaviour as well.

[DM_BK]

I think what this is coming down to is people whom have experianced sound effects used effectively to enhance a game and those that have not but imagine what it would be like.


Sound affects are neat for precisely 3 listens and then they become trite. Besides a DM would have to spend a lot of attention getting his 'timing' right so that they would make sense. His players, all reading at their own speed, going to the fridge etc.... would not have an optimal experience anyway. Speaking for just me, I can't imagine building a varied and satisfying sound library when I'm scrambling all over just to make good graphics.

Your right, if your rely on text wholely then its a bad idea. In order for it all to work a voice client is required...if your typing/players are reading text the sound doesn't work for the reasons you stated. I use a voice client.

Clearly you don't want to annoy people...use of good judgement is required when you use sound. Playing the same sound over and over (even a sword hit noise) will cause an open rebellion very quickly.

Playing full blown music files isn't a good idea either.... bottle line is use your best judgement so it enhances the game. Isnt that what you always try to do?

I pray that, if sound is added, SW doesnt try to add in automatic hit sounds or anything like that as that would be a bad idea. Thats one reason why I stress not to over engineer this.


IMHO sound should not be a high priority because it doesn't help Smiteworks when there are other free options.

I wish there were good options...


I want to note that I would much rather Smiteworks spends its development time on functions that are currently unavailable or sorely in need of improvement, rather than replacing functionality available via a third party application.


I can think of a lot of things that would be nice for FG but really Id rather not see to much more added to this. Part of the magic of FG is how simple and easy it is to use. New features complicate things... where as sounds could be treated like an image file.


1. Why? Does Teamspeak not work for you?

I dont use TS, I use Ventrilo, but TS doesnt list that as a feature. Are you sure? I'd try it if it did just to get by despite the fact that I bought a ventrilo server for a year.


2. You realise that it wouldn't be a money making feature ...

No more (or less) a money making feature then FG2 update has been. Goes into making a product more feature rich which ultimately helps sales.


4 Increasing the expected bandwidth of the program means fewer users can use all the features.

Use all the features? I am not sure what features you lose.... but anyway, this is a feature your GM should not use if they(or anyway in the game) doesnt have the bandwidth. Again, common sense on when/if to use this feature or any other.

[DM_BK]

I checked out https://www.rpgsoundmixer.com/soundmixer/features.php doesn't transmit to people across a network. Bummer. Pretty cool app though otherwise.

It would rock if Ventrilo would transmit sound files. I know it doesnt but whom ever said it does please show me cause I'd like to have just missed that feature somehow. I always have the option to hold the mic up to a sound source but that really sounds bad.

BK

[TarynWinterblade]

I checked out https://www.rpgsoundmixer.com/soundmixer/features.php doesn't transmit to people across a network. Bummer. Pretty cool app though otherwise.

It would rock if Ventrilo would transmit sound files. I know it doesnt but whom ever said it does please show me cause I'd like to have just missed that feature somehow. I always have the option to hold the mic up to a sound source but that really sounds bad.

BK

I actually could have been wrong on that point. If you bind a wav file to a key (using the bindings -> wave file option), doesn't that end up getting transmitted over the network?

I thought it did... perhaps my players just lied to me when they said they had heard it... or maybe they didn't say it at all... (*sigh* Trying to remember things from about 7 months back isn't working right now).

*checks a bit on the features*

Bleh. Nevermind, sorry. You are correct in that they'd have to have the file already on their computer. That's... well... kinda stupid. I take back that particular point. :o

[Cantstanzya]

Why the heck would anyone argue against adding features that are completely optional if you use it in your game?!?!?!Because it takes development time away from other features that could be implemented. I agree, some day it would be nice to have sound, but it is near the bottom of my list as well as many other people.

[Casamordius]

we programmed a system similar to thementioned rpgsoundmixer with the ability to share sound with others over the internet.
- to reduce bandwith you have to download the complete sound-lib before you start the game, in game there will be sent only schort lo-bandwith commands to activate specific sounds
- the software has the ability to compose soundeffects together.. fade some effects out set others to random etc.

I can tell you: IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE!! hearing the wolves in the night.. or the crowd at the marketplace.. or the birds in the trees... combined with a wind blowing or the sea crushing at the cliffs :-)

The GM prapare the soundeffects (writing them to a xml file with a lot of optional properties) and give names to teh combined effects.
In game he has a list of checkboxes with which he can start the sounds for all players.

very nice.. the software is in beta for half a year now (still experimental frontend and you have to edit the sound-properties manually to the xml file), because we hoped that it would be possible to write plugins for FG2.
This would allow us to integrate it right into FG just like you choose lightning...
But this seems not possible... :-(

I think it would be real cool from smiteworks to open the software for 3rd party plugins!

[Astinus]

very nice.. the software is in beta for half a year now (still experimental frontend and you have to edit the sound-properties manually to the xml file), because we hoped that it would be possible to write plugins for FG2.
This would allow us to integrate it right into FG just like you choose lightning...
But this seems not possible... :-(

Sounds very nice indeed. Sounds awesome. Any idea when this might come out of beta?

[Casamordius]

we stopped development to wait for FG2 and see what will be possible.
I misunderstood some of the discussions in this forum in that way that FG2 will be open for plugins.
A technically working solution would be ready for use very soon - the bigger task is a comfortable editor to mix different soundeffects together. Without it is annoying XML hacking..
I will talk about it with my team - too bad that it's just a hobby product and we have customers with commercial projects to satisfy.
Are there many people in that community who would buy a product like this?
This would improve workspeed ;-)

[Astinus]

Are there many people in that community who would buy a product like this?
This would improve workspeed ;-)
I certainly would buy it. I imagine there'd be a fair amount of FG users interested.

[nezzir]

I checked out https://www.rpgsoundmixer.com/soundmixer/features.php doesn't transmit to people across a network. Bummer. Pretty cool app though otherwise.

It would rock if Ventrilo would transmit sound files. I know it doesnt but whom ever said it does please show me cause I'd like to have just missed that feature somehow. I always have the option to hold the mic up to a sound source but that really sounds bad.

BK

I use RPGSoundMixer in conjunction with Ventrilo

I detailed the proceedure in a post I made here:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4979&highlight=ventrilo
It explains how Ventrilo can be used for not only voice, but to pump ambiance and music to players (through a closed system - not over an open air mic).

I have 2 machines (though they are not needed for this). On one of them I run Ventrilo and RPGSoundMixer (which I helped translate for the creator from the original German for US release) and use it to supply a soundtrack for my games. All the software I use is detailed in the original post.

I don't allow voice (I like everything to take place in the client so it is logged - plus voice spoils the point of FG2 imo). I mute the players. I only use Ventrilo for music.

Keep in mind that a Ventrilo server, 9 users or less, is free. So is the client.

[Tokuriku]

I have tried RPG Sound Mixer and it is THE Fantasy Grounds of audio.
Both these marvelous pieces of software used together are a Blast!
I tried Ventrilo for this and it works great.
All those suggestions where good for me.
But I use voice for my games and disagree with nezzir on the fact that voice kills the purpose of FG.
In fact, I take FG to my table top games even if I'm the only one using it; it keeps the information neat and clean, up to date and the combat tracker is a must for big melees.
Setting Ventrilo for sound AND voice on the same machine with 1 sound card is feasable but not as easy as it sounds.
Contrary to the belief that 2 instances of Ventrilo are required to pull it off, one should do the trick if well tuned.

[nezzir]

I have tried RPG Sound Mixer and it is THE Fantasy Grounds of audio.


I know, right? It's an incredible tool. I've pulled off some amazing soundscapes with it. I just wish I could figure out a way to export one of my sound scenarios and have it archive the script and the .wav (et al), so I could share them. It would create a community of people sharing sound scenarios. You may be able to do this, I need to dig into it again and try it out.

Still, as it stands, it's the best sound effect/music mixer for RPGs that I've ever seen.

[DM_BK]

I detailed the proceedure in a post I made here:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums...light=ventrilo
It explains how Ventrilo can be used for not only voice, but to pump ambiance and music to players (through a closed system - not over an open air mic).

Thanks Nezzir! That actually works out better then having the simple stuff I wanted in FG.

BK