Are the 5E rules supposed to be incomplete? [ANGRY RANT]

[JohnSchwartz]

I bet if I searched the forums I'd find a bunch of similar threads, but I don't care.

I paid for the core 5E rulebooks modules, but I still have to handle a ton of rules by hand.

Rogue gets a sneak attack? I'm rolling d6s and adding it to the damage in the combat tracker. There's no visible way for the player to just hit a sneak attack button and have this done automatically.

Player takes the Heavy Armor Mastery feat? I, the DM, have to remember to deduct 3 from non-magical damage dealt to that character. Even though FG knows the character has the feat, it does nothing to implement the rules. So after rolling for enemy damage, I'm going back and fixing the combat tracker to reflect the feat.

Fighter has a Fighting Style? Well luckily I found a video by Philip Greig showing me how I can script that into the system myself. But that should not be necessary. That's why I bought the PHB module.

These core rules are all included in text form, so I can read about fighting styles and sneak attacks, but none of them are actually implemented in the combat system unless I create them myself.

I am furious about this. If FG were freeware I wouldn't trip. I paid hundreds for the license and the rulebooks, and I expected these sorts of rules to be implemented in the system. I love that it's flexible, but I can't believe that DMs to have to put all these things in themselves.

Is this intentional? Or will future updates fix these problems?

[SirGraystone]

Yes effects can be created for those, for example Heavy Armor Master [Feat] RESIST: 3 slashing,bludgeoning,piercing,!magic
you can find a list and help on this wiki https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/5E_Effects

[Zacchaeus]

Not everything is automated but the effects system will pretty much cover most of what isn't.

Apart from the wiki linked above see this series of videos https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?41478-Effects-Videos-for-5E

[Bonkon]

Good Day and Welcome JohnSchwartz :)
For the Rogue Sneak Attack once the character has been made the player or DM need to open the Abilities tab and you will see it there. Now click to open the description. Now open the Abilities tab on the character sheet and drag the skill to the actions tab (Depending on the Theme you use it might be a dragon head, a square, a dot...) That will put it into the characters abilities. Now the character can simply (when appropriate) click the effects button and it will roll the extra damage and turn off the effect. One more thing, when the character levels up and gets additional dice, they will need to modify the Action tab damage by clicking on the magnifying glass icon.
This can be dome with many items in the Abilities tab, so you can just test to see which one work the same. :)

[esmdev]

Hi. I think the key is in expectations.

Fantasy Grounds isn't an MMO it is a Virtual Tabletop. The idea is that you can get together and play various games that would normally require being face to face, most games don't have a ruleset of any kind but you can still play, make a custom character sheet, use the map, roll dice, and the DM does what a DM does at a tabletop and there is no automation of any kind.

Some games, like D&D have extremely advanced pre-developed rulesets that do a lot of DM work automatically, but the DM still needs to be the DM, the rulesets are designed to make the job easier but not to replace the DM.

In the beginning, I found the D&D ruleset to be lacking in this or that, but as I became more familiar with the FG system I found it pretty easy to customize things that weren't automated. It actually can be better this way if you ever use house rules for anything.

My advice to anyone, player or DM, is to learn effects. Effects are a powerful set of systems that are used to assign permanent or temporary changes to the combat tracker. Like a temp bonus to AC, to hit, damage, resist, etc... It is used to reflect magic items, spells, class and race features, etc.

In addition there are a number of community created extensions, some free and some for sale on the DMsguild that increase functionality of the ruleset.

You might check here for the free ones located on this forum: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?27298-Extensions-Modules-Pregens-and-other-5E-resources

[Granamere]

JohnSchwartz I can say when I started I felt exactly like you. Then I started pulling back the layers of the onion.

1 Fantasy Grounds is not a 5e DND game. It does it well but it is a framework to play games with friends on the internet. Step back and really think about it $100 for this frame work is really cheap.

2 The books you buy you really do not have to. With even the demo version of this game you can do it all yourself. (The limit there is you can not play with friends but back to that is were I think $100 to unlock that is cheap.) When I look at Players Handbook the amount of time it would take me to convert it to Fantasy Grounds is worth me spending $30 for the already converted version. Serious how many hours do you think it would take you to do it then you have to convert the rest of the books.

3 Yes you are completely right it is expensive but the amount of time I get to spend with friends through this program more than makes up for the money. If I met up with everyone once a week at a restaurant and there were 5 of us how much do you think that one bill would be. If we go $20 a person that would be $100 for the meal. After a month or two I bet it would cover you entire investment into Fantasy Grounds. I am just trying to add some perspective. Also asking your players for a book or module for birthday or Xmas does not sound out of place.

To fix the problems you have started there is a a secondary market on DMSGUILD.com. https://www.dmsguild.com/product/314555/Fantasy-Grounds-DM-Starter-Kit-BUNDLE would probably resolve most of your problems.

There are also a ton of free stuff that community has made. Lets start with Zacchaeus.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?27296-Guides-videos-and-other-helpful-information

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and download his Complete package series for which ever class you need effects from (AKA just download them all) :)

There are tons of other free things but DM's guild is where people that have coded extras that want to get paid for their hand work post.

More free addons
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?44001-5E-Random-Treasure-Generator
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?42676-CoreRPG-based-Extention-ReadyCheck
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?40289-5E-Player-Effect-Removal-Extension
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?41034-Universal-Module-Extension
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?59220-Theater-of-the-Mind-(Universal)-Extension
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?46585-CoreRPG-Extension-Has-Initiative-Indicator

Then on top of all of this there a free teachers for the program at https://fantasygroundscollege.net/. Take all of the classes and you can write a book, module or extension yourself and sell it on DMSGUILD and start earning money from your hobby. OK that is my dream at least. :)

[selocon]

You can't expect a program that's fully 100% customizable to do everything for you, can you? It take me literally a minute and a half to hand-code the effect of the sneak attack onto a sheet:

DMG:2d6

Change 2d6 to whatever it is for your level. Target: self. Then, if you hit and want to apply sneak attack, apply the effect. Roll damage from the weapon.

It's literally not that hard. This post makes it seem like you never even looked at the user guide or wiki, linked on the popup that comes up when you start up.

[LordEntrails]

Welcome.

FG can do more you think it can if you try to figure it out yourself. Even going through the basic tutorial will only get you familiar with a small part of what it can do. Checking the forums here will help. Taking free classes at www.fantasygroundscollge.net will help. Watching YouTube videos will help. Reading the wiki will help.

But having a positive attitude and when you can't figure something out asking politely on the forums here or in the Discord channel will get you lots of people helping you out.

[viresanimi]

Since this is a virtual tabletop, and not a computer game I am also wondering if this is based on perception / expectation. I have never found a sneak attack button on a piece of paper, that I could press. So all in all, I would say there is more automation here, than on a normal tabletop.

Chill and take the time to learn. I promise that there are loads of people that will happily take time out of their day to help. This IS a great way to game over the net.

And if you have a problem with Dungeons and Dragons lacking automation, God help you if you find interest in a non-D&D game here, that isn't Savage Worlds.

[JohnSchwartz]

Yes effects can be created for those, for example Heavy Armor Master [Feat] RESIST: 3 slashing,bludgeoning,piercing,!magic
you can find a list and help on this wiki https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/5E_Effects

Yeah, I've been working on that today. Instead of planning for today's session, I'm going on the wiki trying to implement rules that I already paid somebody else to implement. Heavy Armor Mastery, Fighting Styles, Sneak Attack, and now I'm struggling with Elemental Adept. I come back to the forums, and I find a bunch of people basically saying to shut up and RTFM.

I'm looking through the manual and the wiki. Elemental Adept lets you ignore target resistance. I think it should be something like "IFT: RESIST: fire; !RESIST: fire" or "IFT: RESIST: fire; RESIST: !fire", but when I try to apply those it ignore the ! and just turns them into "IFT: RESIST: fire; RESIST: fire". This is just making me more mad, and more frustrated and I'm really starting to regret buying this product.

A five year old thread says that Elemental Adept is impossible to implement. Is this still the case? Is there any chance that it will be made possible in future updates?

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?24642-Elemental-Adept-in-FG

[JohnSchwartz]

You can't expect a program that's fully 100% customizable to do everything for you, can you?

YES! That is exactly what I expect when I buy a professionally made product. This isn't freeware. It's not an early access beta. And a rogue's sneak attack is both easy to implement (we agree!) and absolutely core to the class. Neither you nor I should have to do anything to make it happen. There should already be something like "Sneak Attack; DMG: ([ROGUE]+1)/2d6" or something like that as soon as you use create a Rogue is 5E. You shouldn't even have to modify it as you level up, that's what software is supposed to handle for you.

Remember, the VTT is one thing you pay for, and the PHB module is something else you pay for. They should both be complete and functional. The point of a program like this should be to lift trivial burdens off the DM.

[Willot]

Mmm ok its a paid product, more time is put into fully automating the ruleset. So in a couple months time its fully featured. Okis the ruleset/module is now $180

[Zacchaeus]

Yeah, I've been working on that today. Instead of planning for today's session, I'm going on the wiki trying to implement rules that I already paid somebody else to implement. Heavy Armor Mastery, Fighting Styles, Sneak Attack, and now I'm struggling with Elemental Adept. I come back to the forums, and I find a bunch of people basically saying to shut up and RTFM.

I'm looking through the manual and the wiki. Elemental Adept lets you ignore target resistance. I think it should be something like "IFT: RESIST: fire; !RESIST: fire" or "IFT: RESIST: fire; RESIST: !fire", but when I try to apply those it ignore the ! and just turns them into "IFT: RESIST: fire; RESIST: fire". This is just making me more mad, and more frustrated and I'm really starting to regret buying this product.

A five year old thread says that Elemental Adept is impossible to implement. Is this still the case? Is there any chance that it will be made possible in future updates?

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?24642-Elemental-Adept-in-FG

Yes, there's no change to the elemental adept. You'll need to do it manually. It's no problem if there are no resistant creatures but if there are then the easiest thing to do is drag the damage from chat back ionto the resistant creatures which will apply another half damage bringing it up to full damage.

[TMO]

Yeah, I've been working on that today. Instead of planning for today's session, I'm going on the wiki trying to implement rules that I already paid somebody else to implement. Heavy Armor Mastery, Fighting Styles, Sneak Attack, and now I'm struggling with Elemental Adept. I come back to the forums, and I find a bunch of people basically saying to shut up and RTFM.

I agree that this is how some of the comments appear to have come across. I normally give this community a huge benefit of the doubt because they are always willing to help whenever possible.

That said, I don't think your expectations are unrealistic from a certain point of view (and, no, I'm not trying to obfuscate the truth like Obi Wan Kenobi...) That is, I too wish Fantasy Grounds was optimised to fully automate D&D 5E whenever possible. However, I have come to accept the premise that Fantasy Grounds is a gaming paltform first that provides a very flexible rules engine. It cannot be expected to do everything that we might want...although clearly it could do more since we know there are ways to create effects and mods to fill in the gaps.

[dmbrown]

Don’t know if this will do everything you want and it is $2, but you can check it out and see.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/312867/Fantasy-Grounds-Automatic-Elemental-AdeptFantasy

[TXCBoy36]

YES! That is exactly what I expect when I buy a professionally made product. This isn't freeware. It's not an early access beta. And a rogue's sneak attack is both easy to implement (we agree!) and absolutely core to the class. Neither you nor I should have to do anything to make it happen. There should already be something like "Sneak Attack; DMG: ([ROGUE]+1)/2d6" or something like that as soon as you use create a Rogue is 5E. You shouldn't even have to modify it as you level up, that's what software is supposed to handle for you.

Remember, the VTT is one thing you pay for, and the PHB module is something else you pay for. They should both be complete and functional. The point of a program like this should be to lift trivial burdens off the DM.

Lift trivial burdens off of the DM? I am not sure that I am understanding that statement. The motivation of FG was that I could take old modules that I played 30 years ago and through this VTT, re-create these old modules and play them with my kids, or create my own module and FG gives ALL of tools needed to do this. I have enjoyed learning how to code the effects into these PC character sheets and show the players how to apply these effects....which includes the effect for Sneak Attack which works great and allows the specific player playing the Rogue to apply the effect and then see it work on their attack role.

I purchased all of the source books, modules, Rob Twohy's effects, FGC and FGU Ultimate Licenses, etc., and really enjoy the opportunity to learn more.

I have made the mistake of getting Freeware for platforms that I wanted to play and have never seen one that had such a large source of resources, such as this forum, the discord channels, FG College, etc...there are tons of sources to learn what you need to run a good game.

I also feel that I am contributing to Smiteworks for all of the time they spent in developing this platform which means they had play testers, developers, programmers, etc., and there is always a cost to that. I do not regret anything that I have seen since joining this gaming community.

If you need some help on how to make this run smoother, then let me know. I am no expert, but I have learned enough to explain to a group of teenagers and they love the platform and keep coming back to play every week with alot of enthusiasm....

[TXCBoy36]

They have effects and mods to fill the pages, but that does not equate to complete automation. To allow for this type of flexibility that FG offers, it would be very difficult to just focus in on 1 ruleset like 5e. FG is not a 5e platform, but a VTT that allows for a wide range of gaming systems which involves many different rulesets so common sense suggests that it would be difficult to just apply automation to 1 particular rule set....

[Ludd_G]

I'm sorry, I'm a huge supporter of FG, but I really think the original poster has a valid point. FG is not cheap, and that's fine, but its main selling point is the ability of its automation to reduce the DMs workload, and in this I think it's starting to let us down. There has been a recent upsurge in amazing 3rd party coding being produced to plug the many gaps in basic automation. So we know that this automation is possible and these 3rd party producers are really pushing the envelope in what they can get FG to do, it's really quite inspiring. But it comes at a cost on top of FG. Now for what they are doing I think the pricing is more than fair, but I'm not sure we should have to be paying anyone more for automation of basic class/race/items/effect/abilities than the cost of FG. The more esoteric stuff, yeah totally, but 'Sneak Attack', 'Pack Tactics', 'Wild Shape'? Come on, really?

I am so glad there are people plugging the gap, but I'm really not sure I think we should need them to. And once you start adding the cost of these amazing 3rd party products suddenly that $180 for a fully automated ruleset/module isn't looking so fantastical.

Cheers,

Simon

[LordEntrails]

IMO its about expectations.

The developers have always stated that their intent in 5E is for the ruleset to automate somewhere around 80% of the game mechanics. Part of this is flexibility (i.e. the same reason that damage is triggered separately from attacks being a hit), because when you automate too much, exception and house rules are ignored or more difficult to catch. The second is diminishing returns; yes many things that are not being automated can be automated, but doing so requires resources that can not be used for something AND everything that is automated requires ongoing maintenance. So, the more you automate, the more overhead the devs have to spend just maintaining that automation for every update and implementation of a new feature.

Look, we get it. Every now and then we get folks who express this opinion. And they are right. But they are also wrong. Because it's all about expectations and perspectives. And SmiteWorks will say this too, if FG is not the right tool for you, they wish you well and hope you find the tool that works better for you. They are always happy to hear the opinions of the community, but they can't give everyone everything they want. They are only human.

[Neovirtus]

I'm sorry, I'm a huge supporter of FG, but I really think the original poster has a valid point. FG is not cheap, and that's fine, but its main selling point is the ability of its automation to reduce the DMs workload, and in this I think it's starting to let us down. There has been a recent upsurge in amazing 3rd party coding being produced to plug the many gaps in basic automation. So we know that this automation is possible and these 3rd party producers are really pushing the envelope in what they can get FG to do, it's really quite inspiring. But it comes at a cost on top of FG. Now for what they are doing I think the pricing is more than fair, but I'm not sure we should have to be paying anyone more for automation of basic class/race/items/effect/abilities than the cost of FG. The more esoteric stuff, yeah totally, but 'Sneak Attack', 'Pack Tactics', 'Wild Shape'? Come on, really?

I am so glad there are people plugging the gap, but I'm really not sure I think we should need them to. And once you start adding the cost of these amazing 3rd party products suddenly that $180 for a fully automated ruleset/module isn't looking so fantastical.

Cheers,

Simon

I agree with this statement completely.

In the same way, I am a big fan of this software and have no intention of switching, but the fact that many of the class features are not (or even worse, CANNOT) be automated is a problem. I understand the arguments made by many: that any automation is a bonus and compared to where it was in the past what we have now is a huge improvement... but I simply disagree with that logic. The very fact that many third party effects packages are considered essential, whether Zacchaeus' Class Effects or Rob2E's DMs Guild packages, is a symptom of the issue that cannot be ignored.

I will say to the OP, once you get over the initial frustration of needing to work around some of the rough edges, you barely even notice these deficiencies. I find that Fantasy Grounds is a fantastic software that simplifies running a game to the point where I even use it for in-person games. BUT, there are things that aren't ideal and this is definitely one of them. Hopefully it will improve with time. I'd say to be aware that there is a 30 day money back guarantee if you're really dissatisfied, but I don't think any of the competitors really come close to even the current state of FG. I hope you stick with the software, continue to contribute to the community and hopefully they'll hear us asking for better automation and make improvements.

[The High Druid]

I think expecting all the automation to be built-in is expecting an awful lot from your $30 PHB (which is frequently cheaper on sale). The (not amazon) price for the book is a lot higher, and that's just the text, your fantasy ground module already does a lot more for a lower price. (it also does a lot more than the PHB available on dndbeyond or roll20 - so well done you, you already got it from the best place). The modules are very much digital books with quite a few extras thrown in, and very much not software to play the game for you.

While I understand some of the frustration of "buying the books twice" (in my case I never bothered buying the physical books for 5E and have done everything through Fantasy Grounds) it's important to realise you are paying for time here. You can happily play 5E on fantasy grounds without them, if you are willing to devote the time to copying all the necessary data from the books yourself. But are the hours it would take to do that worth more to you spent on other activities, and if they are, the modules are very good investment.

Edit: this post from Zacc will be very useful getting character abilities working:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?27296-Guides-videos-and-other-helpful-information&p=432115&viewfull=1#post432115

[Ludd_G]

{Sorry, just read this post back and I think it came over very much more belligerently than I intended, so I've deleted it}

[Trenloe]

It's an interesting discussion and you can see where people are coming from. Please keep this in mind - SmiteWorks provide a good framework and toolkit to allow all of the community/DMs Guild products you see out there. All of that is possible with the open ruleset (for some, but not all rulesets) and published API. Does it then mean that SmiteWorks should suddenly spend a lot of their limited developer resource on coding up what others have spent a lot of time coding? Or spend lots of money buying those developed products, and spending even more time making them work with the coding level expected of a Smiteworks product (there is a very wide range of coding ability out there and so it's not just a case of buying some code and using it as is). And also, what if people don't want to sell their code and want to keep selling it on DMs Guild - should SmiteWorks push them out by developing the same code? All of the DMs Guild products are possible because of the open aspect of the 5E ruleset and FGs API, is it right to effectively take away someone's revenue stream for their hard work if SmiteWorks decide to spend time developing "stuff" people see on DMs Guild but expect it in the base FG product/s?

There are a lot of things to consider here - the development environment, especially as DMs Guild has muddied the waters as to what SmiteWorks are expected to do, what they should do, and what they can do; and some people release code under licenses that mean SmiteWorks can't use their code in their products.

I know the SmiteWorks internal developers are looking at improving some coding as they come out of the developer sink that FGU has been so far (and will continue to be). But as I have outlined above - it's not just a case of spending hundreds of hours doing stuff that's been done by community developers (or something similar) - there are a lot of things to consider. Not least what these high expectations do for the official product converters - the people who convert products for you to use. A lot of these converters never get more than beer and pizza money from their many hours of work (frequently in excess of 100 hours per product). If SmiteWorks introduce a tighter expectation that these converters (frequently not very technical) have to do a lot more pseudo coding, or whatever, when SmiteWorks add a new feature; then I can guarantee that you'll see less and less converted products - especially for the non-mainstream publishers and products. And that would be a huge shame.

SmiteWorks is not a massive company with million of dollars to throw at dozens of developers. They rely heavily on external converters who get paid a small commission for their work - significantly increasing a community developer's work without increasing their recompense would mean much less converted products - and for the big publishers SmiteWorks don't have much wiggle room to give those converters more money because the publisher takes a big chunk of it. Just as an example - it will be interesting to see how many converters go back and add LoS to their already released products. SmiteWorks have to balance all of their development tasks along with their budget, their licenses, the DMs Guild/community environment, ongoing conversion of existing products and upcoming conversion of new products, etc., etc.. If the product base was completely static then it would be a lot easier, but it isn't.

A lot of the automation in the 5E ruleset is possible because WotC use very repeatable phrases that the 5E ruleset is programmed to recognise and extract relevant actions and effects. A small number of these in the base product don't work correctly, and have been programmed into the 5E ruleset - but such an approach isn't viable for all of the products out there. It will need a new automation subsystem (for lack of a better phrase) that less technical people could use, but would allow converters to build higher levels of automation/power recognition in the product they're converting - but, like I mention, this will increase the converter's workload. I know that SmiteWorks have tasked one of their internal devs to look at options for this.

On a side note, I'm the main community developer for the Pathfinder Second Edition ruleset (PFRPG2). I don't work for SmiteWorks and rely on converting Paizo products to get my beer and pizza money - I get a very small amount of commission for being the main ruleset developer, it's not much all things considered. I spend over 100 hours each month (on top of my day job) coding new features, fixing bugs, helping other developers get up-to-speed, supporting people on the forums and discord, etc.. We've had similar expectations/complaints about the PFRPG2 ruleset - mostly exposed because Paizo don't use the same level of reproducible phrases like WotC do, so the ruleset can't do best guess parsing to the same level as the 5E ruleset. It's interesting that some of the complaints are that PFRPG2 is not as good as 5E and it's the poor stepson by comparison - the perception being that more time has been spent on the 5E ruleset and products to get to the level of automation 5E has (ironically, the level that some people in this thread feel is not good enough). I recognise that things can be better, and have started implementing an automation subsystem to allow more coding of abilities and actions - but, as mentioned above, this still requires people to do it - be it a converter or a GM doing their own stuff. If anyone's interested, there's some details of the first steps, with PFRPG2 NPC automation in this thread (especially post #3): https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?59857-PFRPG2-ruleset-Release-17-now-quot-live-quot

So, TL;DR - SmiteWorks, and other devs, do recognise that things could be better, and are working to improve things. But, it won't happen overnight, and (this is very important) due to the forever changing nature of RPG systems (new products coming out, etc.) it will never, ever, be possible to have 100% automation of everything. In the 5E ruleset, SmiteWorks already have a high level (80% or more), but the remaining 20% can cause angst for some people - and this has bred a cottage industry of developers who sell the results of their efforts on DMs Guild. The situation, and how to move forwards from here, is not simple - due to the emergence of this cottage industry, SmiteWorks current commitments to their licensed products and their community developers, and the simple fact that they don't have inexhaustible resources. But there are plans being discussed and things afoot (more than just games, Watson)...

[TMO]

A lot of the automation in the 5E ruleset is possible because WotC use very repeatable phrases that the 5E ruleset is programmed to recognise and extract relevant actions and effects. A small number of these in the base product don't work correctly, and have been programmed into the 5E ruleset - but such an approach isn't viable for all of the products out there. It will need a new automation subsystem (for lack of a better phrase) that less technical people could use, but would allow converters to build higher levels of automation/power recognition in the product they're converting - but, like I mention, this will increase the converter's workload. I know that SmiteWorks have tasked one of their internal devs to look at options for this.

IMO, this alone says it best. I was trying to say the same thing, but not nearly as clearly or competently.

Software development is my day job and our company uses a tookit that is very flexible and extensible...not unlike what Fantasy Grounds is for VTT. Our community often discusses "what we think the tookit should do out of the box" but we also realize the tookit vendor, like SmitWorks, is a relatively small company with limited resources. They are busy keeping their tookit compatible with the rapidly changing environment of operating systems. Knowing that, it helps keep our expectations in check yet it also incentives companies like ours to develop 3rd party add-ons. Compared to our primary software development and consulting revenue, the money we get from selling our 3rd party add-ons (which includes a huge library of freeware) is barely "beer and pizza money". We sometimes begrudge the vendor for not providing the same tools we feel forced to write, but at the same time we've also benefited greatly from the reputation we've received from our contributions to the developer comunity. As such, this has generated new software development work. So, it's a win for us either way.