PDA

View Full Version : OSRIC conversion for 2E



Sterno
July 28th, 2020, 22:44
It turns out that legally sharing our homemade adventure modules with each other is difficult if it relies on licensed 2E content (such as PHB spells, MM monsters, etc), so for the purely selfish reasons of hoping I end up seeing some homemade modules posted that I can then shamelessly steal and use in my game, I've decided to convert OSRIC for the 2E ruleset. Note that this is meant to be played in 2E... it's not a separate "OSRIC" ruleset. I have seen that there was some other OSRIC content community mods in the past, but I think they were meant to be used with an OSRIC extension that changes how the 2E ruleset plays. This is not meant to change any of the rules of the 2e ruleset or how the game plays... it's just a different set of data than what you'd get from the 2E Player's Handbook or Monstrous Manual.

I've converted all of the races, classes, weapons, armor, spells, and monsters from the OSRIC core rules into a module. I had planned to do the Monsters of Myth book as well, but after looking at the license on it I'm not entirely sure I can do that legally. So for now I've abandoned that plan.

Note: AlterZwerg has created a module for the OSRIC magic items, available here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?61083-OSRIC-Magic-Items

This is all free for anyone to use, obviously. It follows the same license as OSRIC, and I'm not a lawyer, but I think that basically means you can use it in your published content (free or even for money) so long as you include the license and attribution. If you're going to sell any content you make using spells/monsters/etc from this, though, don't trust my word for it... look into that yourself.

It's worth looking at the "Conversion Notes (a.k.a., "Why did he do it this way?")" Story entry in the module. It explains many of the decisions I had to make when making this compatible with the 2E ruleset (like how to deal with ambiguous rules, calculate XP values, etc).

I am certain that typos and probably some fat-fingered stats ended up in there here and there. For a lot of the typos, they're a result of how copy and pasting from the OSRIC PDF formatted text... it would occasionally inserted extra spaces or have a few other weird problems. I am unlikely to go through and take the time to remove extra white spaces here and there (usually right before a period at the end of a paragraph, or for some reason after the letters "fi"). That said, feel free to drop me a list of them and I'll correct them eventually in a big batch.

If you see more serious problems, like stat or automation errors, I'll handle those and post updates more quickly.

celestian
July 28th, 2020, 22:53
This is a monumental task. After doing the PHB/DMG/MM I know just how much work it is. Thanks for taking it on!

This could legally be used to convert OSRIC adventures (like the Advanced Adventures) for FG.

Sterno
July 28th, 2020, 22:56
One more note... I'm also developing an extension that adds various bits of extra automation and house rules to the 2E ruleset. You might see some text in the "properties" field on armor or weapons that make no sense to you. That's because they're for use by my extension. If you aren't using the extension, they'll have no impact on your game.

readymeal
July 29th, 2020, 10:06
.

Please let me know if you have any feedback or see things to correct, or want to help out (such as converting magic items).

I want to help out as long it does not involve too much effect coding...cause i just don t get it...unfortunately. Happy to do the donkey work though.

BTW Can someone make a program/mod/ext/whatever with drop down menu for making effects that i just need to copy paste or even better a magical item/spell creator with built in effect coding? pretty please...

hawkwind
July 29th, 2020, 12:01
has this not already been done once https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?48988-OSRIC-Classes-part-2 ?

Sterno
July 29th, 2020, 13:57
has this not already been done once https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?48988-OSRIC-Classes-part-2 ?

That only had 5 classes, no items, no spells, and no NPCs. This is meant to cover everything (though I'm still working on the NPCs). It also said it was for use with the 1E extension, so I wasn't sure if that would have an effect on the way the data was input (my guess is, for the classes, it doesn't matter).

The end goal here is to give a DM everything they need for content that can then be shared (because of the licensing differences between OSRIC and 2E) or sold.

This started because I had started converting some Advanced Adventures on my own for use in 2E. Then I heard that FG had the rights to sell some of those, but the sold conversions can't contain any links to the 2E PHB or MM data. I personally am not looking to sell any of those modules, but this might help those who do want to convert and sell them. It also bugged me that if I made a cool adventure, I couldn't actually share it with the community if it contained Monstrous Manual NPCs or PHB spells and items. This gets around that (though the For Gold and Glory conversion will be an even better fit for that case, as it's basically reskinned AD&D 2e, whereas OSRIC is more like AD&D 1e reskinned).

And, eventually, I plan to convert The Halls of of Arden Vul for my own use, and this is a necessary first step for that.

hawkwind
July 29th, 2020, 18:26
monsters spells and items are in post 2 https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?37777-Project-AD-amp-D-Core-Ruleset the remaining classes in post 1

that said the first bunch of classes are done very basically in the pre official days of the rule set but the monster mod is useful source for all those monsters that got dropped from 2e. I'm not even sure the first edition extension even works anymore

Sterno
July 29th, 2020, 20:17
Nice! I just took a look and there was a lot there! I haven't gone over it in a ton of detail but it looked like a lot of spell effects, damage buttons, and monster effects were missing though. Dragons seem to be missing powers like their breath weapons, etc.

I'm a big fan of automation so definitely want that.

I'm not sure whether the best path forward is to somehow merge these efforts or just keep them separate. What are you feelings about it, Hawkwind?

celestian
July 29th, 2020, 20:31
Nice! I just took a look and there was a lot there! I haven't gone over it in a ton of detail but it looked like a lot of spell effects, damage buttons, and monster effects were missing though. Dragons seem to be missing powers like their breath weapons, etc.

I'm a big fan of automation so definitely want that.

I'm not sure whether the best path forward is to somehow merge these efforts or just keep them separate. What are you feelings about it, Hawkwind?

Having all the effects tied to spells, powers, npcs and items will be instrumental in giving it the automation that is currently in the 2E content.

ChrisRevocateur
December 14th, 2020, 23:36
If the idea is to make 2E sharable, why use OSRIC as the base for the data and not For Gold & Glory, since FG&G is the OGL implementation of 2E specifically?

Obviously you've already started the work, so I'm not suggesting a change mid-stream, just curious why you're implementing 1E instead of 2E data.

celestian
December 15th, 2020, 00:27
If the idea is to make 2E sharable, why use OSRIC as the base for the data and not For Gold & Glory, since FG&G is the OGL implementation of 2E specifically?

Obviously you've already started the work, so I'm not suggesting a change mid-stream, just curious why you're implementing 1E instead of 2E data.

Can't speak for Sterno but I can tell you, mechanically,as far as the ruleset is concerned, they are same. OSRIC has far more support than any other "AD&D" OGL style out there.

Sterno
December 15th, 2020, 00:59
If the idea is to make 2E sharable, why use OSRIC as the base for the data and not For Gold & Glory, since FG&G is the OGL implementation of 2E specifically?

Obviously you've already started the work, so I'm not suggesting a change mid-stream, just curious why you're implementing 1E instead of 2E data.

I want to do both, actually, but I started with OSRIC because Fantasy Grounds is publishing content for Advanced Adventures, which is based on OSRIC. I thought it would be helpful for anyone who is working on those adventures, since due to licensing, the 2E monsters can't be included.

I kind of stalled out though because I'd been working on the NPCs, had a hard drive failure, lost my work on them, and haven't had the motivation to restart it yet.

ChrisRevocateur
December 15th, 2020, 01:00
I want to do both, actually, but I started with OSRIC because Fantasy Grounds is publishing content for Advanced Adventures, which is based on OSRIC.

Ah, that's logical. Thank you for the answer.

dimonic
December 31st, 2020, 14:31
Hey, this is great Sterno. I am running a Blackmoor campaign and I was using a number of older community mods for 1E and OSRIC (races, classes). The Monster mod I am using is incomplete and buggy. I understand (more or less) the xml format, so if you want to divvy up some of the npc work I would take it on. I am swapping out the older mods for yours now.

Sterno
December 31st, 2020, 17:06
For what it's worth, your post motivated me to start working on the NPCs again, so I've been working on that all morning and have some spare time for the next few days where I might just be able to crank the whole thing out. I'll keep you posted!

And I'm still waffling a bit on exactly what I want to use for Thac0, XP value, and saving throws of OSRIC monsters. The "truest" OSRIC experience would be me using their attack matrix to determine Thac0, their saves, and their method of calculating XP, but to make it more of a "2E conversion" would be to use 2E's charts for that stuff.

Saves will almost definitely just use the 2E charts because that's coded into the ruleset and going against it is actually kind of a pain (any time you set HD on a NPC, it automatically updates saves based on 2E charts). Overall I don't think it matters much so isn't worth the work of individually overriding all those (and risking they get changed back automatically anyway).

For XP value, I was originally planning on using 2E's formulas, but after working on monsters for a bit I'm leaning towards using OSRIC's formulas, because there's less subjectivity involved on my end when trying to convert to 2E, and in the long run, I don't think this one matters much either.

Thac0 for monsters is the toughest decision. In general, the Thac0 for a monster in OSRIC is 1 to 2 points better than it would be in AD&D 2E. I'll probably end up going with OSRIC Thac0s though since I already used those for the OSRIC classes, and having the classes use one progression and the NPCs use a different one feels wrong. Even then, there's some subjectivity on exactly what the Thac0 should be, when you've got things like a Merchant which I guess is technically a 1 HD monster but only has a 1d6 hit die and, if actually using monster attack matrix tables, would be the equivalent of a 2nd level fighter. That doesn't feel right, so I'm making some calls when it comes to human-type "monsters". Probably won't make everyone happy, but people can always edit it themselves (all 4 people who end up using this!)

Looking forward to moving on to a For Gold & Glory conversion where I don't have to make any decisions or interpretations!

dimonic
January 1st, 2021, 15:35
Well this is great news. I just fixed all the class attack matrices for character advancement using 1E extensions (they were all set at 20 across the board). Is there somewhere I can up load the fixed mod?

Also - I am good with the OSRIC choice - just as long as it is explicitly noted somewhere. It will impact adventure module designers mostly in terms of providing balanced encounters.

Here is the modded file https://drive.google.com/file/d/16oR71r5e26mSclP52ED-LUicEcY1A6yi/view?usp=sharing

I normally use git for stuff like this. I am a professional developer (C++) if that helps.

Sterno
January 1st, 2021, 17:01
Fixed them where? Just double-checked my module and they're definitely not 20 across the board. Below I'm showing what the level 4 Fighter Thac0 would be (17).

https://i.imgur.com/gkibZC6.png

Edit: I did just notice that Thief/Assassin/Magic-User/Illusionist are set to start at Thac0 21 and not 20 in the module. I had decided to extrapolate what a real "Thac0" might be since it uses an attack matrix and not a Thac0 in OSRIC (because 20 can hit 6 different ACs in OSRIC, and the 2E ruleset doesn't support that). Is that what you're talking about? A problem that occurs if I change, say, a Magic-User Thac0 to be 20 instead of 21 is that it means they now only need a 19 to hit AC 1 instead of a 20, because the ruleset uses Thac0 math instead of attack matrixes.

dimonic
January 1st, 2021, 18:08
I am using the 1E extension, and if you peek at the code, you will see that all the attack matrices are 20s across the board. I replace them all with the appropriate numbers (since as you say, in 1E the 20 can hit 6 different ACs). They work for me now. That is what I posted. You can do a "diff" to see exactly what I changed.

The 1E extension utilises the matrix, which 2E does not.

42428

As opposed to

42429

Edit:
Here is the combat matrix from the advancement table:

42433

Here is your original mod code:

42434

Here is the same section modified:

42435

Sterno
January 1st, 2021, 20:23
Okay, I see what you mean now. Yeah, I didn't load that extension and then fill that stuff out because this was specifically meant to be an "OSRIC for 2E" conversion, not a recreation of the actual OSRIC ruleset. I've never actually tried that extension out before.

I could see about merging in the XML that sets those tables so those that do use the extension don't need to do it manually, though, assuming there's no conflict when the extension is unloaded. You did it for all the levels for all the classes?

Is this the extension you're using? https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50757-1st-Edition-Extensions-for-D-amp-D-Classic

I already can see that we'll have another conflict because the NPC records in my module already include the XP value for hit points (assuming max hit points, though), and that extension is probably going to be adding them on again.

Ultimately it comes down to the intention of this mod being to allow the use of OSRIC content in 2E games, rather than fully reproducing the 1E experience. What might make sense in the long run is if someone is interested in the true "1e" version of this module, taking it, editing it (such as inputting the attack matrixes for classes, and redoing the XP to just have the base "without HP added in" values so that the extension can do it properly.

By the way, over the last 3 days I've done about 30 pages of monsters and have 100 to go, so hopefully I'll have a "finished" product soon. Dragons have been slow going because I've been creating entries for every HD and age category. I do want to get the Monsters of Myth book done too (which I might do as a separate module) since it has a lot of creatures in it that don't have equivalents in the currently-released 2E content for FG.

dimonic
January 1st, 2021, 21:36
Yes, I did all levels of all the classes present in the mod.

I am using an extension by Celestian https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-37986.html

Here is a link to my github to make an easy merge https://github.com/dimonic/OsricFor2e

Sterno
January 2nd, 2021, 14:50
Updated the OP so that it now includes monsters up through "Class B Demon". Work continues. Feedback welcome. Hope you like dragons, because I think that's 2 of the 4 pages worth of NPC records.

Did not include dimonic's addition of attack matrixes for use by the 1e extension (yet).

Added a story entry titled "Conversion notes (a.k.a "Why did he do it this way?")" that explains choices I made when deciding how to convert certain things.

dimonic
January 2nd, 2021, 15:10
Excellent. I will download, merge my changes and take it for a spin!

Hmmm. The structure/version changes have made it hard for an automatic merge (not to mention changing the name of the file itself). It looks like I can simply delete all the <category...> </category> tags? I will try that and see if it simplifies the merge.

dimonic
January 2nd, 2021, 17:01
So... whatever tool you use to create this has "reorganized" each attack matrix block in a new sorting order. This has stymied attempts to automatically merge my tables into your work, as the "patch" tool can't find the same text in your target to replace it.

I instead stripped out some surplus tags (<category>...</category> pairs) in the earlier code to match yours, matched CR/LF (you use DOS style) and then copy/pasted your <npc> section into my code for testing purposes.

This kind of stuff is why git is such an essential tool for this kind of work.

Sterno
January 2nd, 2021, 18:11
I'm doing all my data input via Fantasy Grounds. I have not been editing the XML manually. The process I used is basically
1. Create campaign in FG
2. Create new classes/spells/items/npcs/whatever in that campaign via FG.
3. /export everything
4. Take the resulting .mod file and post it to the forums.

I use git for my extension development but don't plan to start using it for the module development, since it basically amounts to one XML file that I'm managing entirely through FG rather than an external application (thus, line endings are irrelevant to me so long as FG is happy with them... in fact, worrying about if changing the line ending type will make FG unhappy is not something I even want to have to think about!).

There may have been a big change though since a hard drive crash a few months ago lost the original "source" campaign I was building the .mod file from, so I had to recreate the database in a new campaign from the .mod file here on the forums. Maybe that process rearranged something. From there, I just do a new export of my campaign when I want to publish the .mod. It might also just be a result of the fact that those attack matrices come from an extension I don't have loaded. I'm honestly kind of surprised it even had an "all 20s" node in there rather than being completely blank, since the 2E ruleset doesn't use that at all as far as I know.

As for the class merge, chances are that if you haven't made any changes other than adding attack matrices, I can just load your corrected module from my campaign, copy the classes over, and delete my existing ones. Then I don't have to mess around with XML merge conflicts. I've broken things too many times in the DB xml files while editing them manually to want to go that route unless I absolutely have to. A github link with the XML seems useful in theory if this were a community project where people can submit pull requests for additions/changes to the XML, but frankly I don't trust it enough to "just work" in Fantasy Grounds after merging XML changes, and have no desire to troubleshoot it when things go wrong. Maybe my initial bad experiences with manually editing/merging records from the XML tainted me against it though and it wouldn't be as bad as I think, but I'm not eager to find out right now.

dimonic
January 2nd, 2021, 18:22
That makes sense. It seems like FG maintains it's xml internally in some kind of map or tree, and it's natural sorting order has changed (hence the change in the data file). I just cobbled it together manually for my own use.

Yes, I agree that strategy for using the "corrected" classes should work just fine. The only changes I made were the attack matrices.

As for editing xml, normally I would agree, but there was so much repetitive cut copy and paste work in the attack tables that it saved a lot of time using VS code editor instead of going through FG.

Sterno
January 2nd, 2021, 18:37
I've just uploaded a new .mod in the OP which should contain the attack matrices you added (and we're up to "Succubus" now in the monster entries!). Please let me know if it works... not sure if something is going to get lost in translation of export since I don't have the 1E extension installed, but glancing at the XML, it looked like it preserved the changes.

And yeah, I have edited the XML manually sometimes... usually something like "Crap, I accidentally typed 'Draegon' in these 200 monster entries instead of 'Dragon', let me fix that". But when it's come time to fully add/remove nodes or try to merge some changes, it's led to some janky results sometimes.

dimonic
January 2nd, 2021, 19:19
Looks great. Giant two headed trolls! Way to exceed expectations!

Sterno
January 4th, 2021, 18:45
Now includes all monsters up to and including the "Undead" section of the OSRIC core book. Which means it's only about 50% done. 448 NPC records so far!

dimonic
January 4th, 2021, 19:32
Awesome. This is fantastic work, Sterno. I am going to start polishing up my adventures so I can share them.

prometheus13
January 5th, 2021, 14:19
Awesome! Will update the extension and check it out.

dimonic
January 6th, 2021, 00:02
If you want bug reports, where do you want them?

Sterno
January 7th, 2021, 04:14
Here works fine. Discord is fine too. You can find me in the Fantasy Grounds discord server's #advanced-dungeons-and-dragons channel.

If it's mostly typos, fat-fingered numbers, etc, I'd rather see them all batched up. I'll probably do a pass after the full thing is released to fix that sort of thing.

If you see a systemic problem, like I keep calculating Thac0 wrong or something, I'll take that info ASAP. I'm currently in the "Other" section of the monsters (the last section!) and up through the letter C. I think I have about 40 pages to go.

Sterno
January 10th, 2021, 06:15
First draft is completed and the OP is updated. All monsters are in. At this point all that should be left is fixing errors as they are spotted.

Sterno
January 22nd, 2021, 19:23
A month or two ago Celestian posted an update to the 2E ruleset that lets you add keywords to spells, and use those keywords in effects to give someone immunity or save bonuses/penalties against those keywords. I just uploaded a new version which has added keywords for all spells. I have not yet updated monster powers to have them yet, or gone through the spell list and created new effects which make use of these keywords (such as, for example, giving someone a +4 to saves vs fear).

Here are the spells that had keywords added
Animal Friendship: charm, mind
Blindness: blind
Burning Hands: fire
Call Lightning: lightning
Cause Blindness: blind
Cause Critical Wounds: necrotic
Cause Light Wounds: necrotic
Cause Serious Wounds: necrotic
Cause Fear: fear, mind
Chariot of Fire: fire
Chaos: mind
Charm Monster: charm, mind
Charm Person: charm, mind
Charm Person or Mammal: charm, mind
Charm Plants: charm
Chill Metal: cold
Cloudkill: poison
Colour Spray: mind, sleep or blind or mind, stun (depending on effect)
Cone of Cold: cold
Confuse Languages: mind
Confusion: mind
Continual Darkness: dark
Continual Light: light
Darkness: dark
Darkness 15' radius: dark
Death Spell: necrotic
Delay Blast Fireball: fire
Destruction: necrotic
Emotion: mind, fear
Energy Drain: necrotic
ESP: mind
Explosive Runes: fire
Fear: fear, mind
Feeblemind: mind
Finger of Death: necrotic
Fire Charm: charm, mind
Fire Seeds: fire
Fire Storm: fire
Fire Trap: fire
Fireball: fire
Flame Arrow: fire
Flame Strike: fire
Forget: mind
Freezing Sphere: cold
Friends: mind, charm
Geas: mind
Harm: necrotic
Heat Metal: fire
Hold Animal: mind
Hold Monster: mind
Hold Person: mind
Hypnotic Pattern: mind
Hypnotism: mind
Improved Phantasmal Force: mind
Incendiary Cloud: fire
Irresistable Dance: mind
Light: light
Lightning BOlt: lightning
Mass Charm: charm, mind
Mass Suggestion: charm, mind
Meteor Swarm: fire
Paralysation: mind
Phantasmal Force: mind
Phantasmal Killer: mind
Power Word, Blind: blind
Power Word, Stun: stun
Prismatic Sphere: blind, fire (red), poison (green), mind (indigo)
Prismatic Spray: fire (red), poison (green), mind (indigo)
Produce Fire: fire
Produce Flame: fire
Programmed Illusion: mind
Quest: mind
Scare: mind, fear
Shocking Grasp: lightning
Slay Living: necrotic
Sleep: mind, sleep
Snake Charm: mind, charm
Spectral Force: mind
Stinking Cloud: poison
Suggestion: charm, mind
Symbol: depending on symbol: mind, fear, sleep, stun
Wall of Fire: fire

JohnD
January 26th, 2021, 18:12
Thanks for doing all this work so the rest of us can simply benefit. :)