Flurry of Blows

[Illyunkas]

I'm curious how other players/DM's have set up flurry of blows. I'm relatively new to FG and so far I have only played using the 5e ruleset. Since I like both 5e and PF 2 I decided to start working on it. I understand that PF2 is still pretty new for FG so a lot of it is still in the works.

[ronlugge]

I'm not sure there's anything that needs to be set up. It's a one-action flourish that gives you two strikes. What is there to set up?

[Trenloe]

The main thing with flurry of blows is that the damage is combined for purposes of resistances and weaknesses. I'm not aware of any ruleset that allows the automatic combination of damage across multiple attacks. However, the simple process outlined below allows this.

To do this, roll your first and second attacks as normal (using the relevant multi-attack penalties) and if both hit, remove targeting before you roll the first damage so that it just rolls into the chat window but doesn't apply. Then drag the result of the first damage roll to the modifier stack so that the damage is logged as a modifier for the next roll and re-add targeting. Then roll the second damage - the amount from the first roll will be added to the second roll - and as you now have targeting the damage will be applied to the target.

Note: you can quickly disable targeting by clicking the small targeting cross-hairs on the modifier stack beneath the chat window.

So, the steps are:

Make attacks as normal - apply MAP (Multi Attack Penalties) as required.
If both attacks hit, click the targeting cross-hairs on the modifier stack so that it's greyed out.
Roll your first damage, this won't be applied as targeting is disabled at this point.
Drag/drop the result of the damage roll to the modifier stack so that the total damage of the first roll is shown as a modifier and click the cross-hairs so that they aren't greyed out anymore.
Roll the second damage.

[ronlugge]

The main thing with flurry of blows is that the damage is combined for purposes of resistances and weaknesses.

And now I feel stupid. I don't think our monk did that when they flurried.

[Illyunkas]

Thanks for the response. While we’re on the subject of Monks, has anyone automated the mountain stance effects. It gives plus 4 to AC but caps dex bonus. I’m not really sure if automating that is possible but if it is I’d love to do that.

[Trenloe]

Thanks for the response. While we’re on the subject of Monks, has anyone automated the mountain stance effects. It gives plus 4 to AC but caps dex bonus. I’m not really sure if automating that is possible but if it is I’d love to do that.
Either manually work it out and apply the correct effect.

https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/372244481/PFRPG2+Effects

Or, use this effect (applied from the PC actions tab): AC:4 status; AC: [-DEX] Then apply that to the PC once they're in the combat tracker. When first applied, the DEX will be substituted for the PC dex bonus at the time - so you may need to adjust that once the effect is in the CT if the DEX bonus changes for any reason.

[Larsenex]

Trenloe,

Can you tell me where in the CT the 'modifier stack' is?

[Trenloe]

Can you tell me where in the CT the 'modifier stack' is?
https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/885022/Applying+Modifiers+to+your+Dice+Rolls

[Illyunkas]

Thanks again

[Larsenex]

Yes, thank you. I did not know you can drag dice values there which is very cool!

[Illyunkas]

Either manually work it out and apply the correct effect.

https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/372244481/PFRPG2+Effects

Or, use this effect (applied from the PC actions tab): AC:4 status; AC: [-DEX] Then apply that to the PC once they're in the combat tracker. When first applied, the DEX will be substituted for the PC dex bonus at the time - so you may need to adjust that once the effect is in the CT if the DEX bonus changes for any reason.

I used this effect that I created in the PC actions tab and it doesn't seem to be actually changing the AC. I must be doing something wrong. Is there any way someone can help me figure out what that is? I have attached a screenshot of how I have set it up. The AC is showing in the combat tracker as 17 and on the Character Sheet. My math says the AC should be 19. 10+5(Unarmored)+4(MS)+0(Dex)=19. Without MS it should be 10+5(Armor)+2(Dex)=17. I have tried applying the effect after adding the PC to the combat tracker.
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[MaxAstro]

Effects don't adjust the displayed AC. Trying rolling an attack roll against the PC - you should see the correct AC is used.

[Illyunkas]

I have tried that and it an attack still hit with a 17. I'm starting a 5e game so I won't be able to double check that I read that correctly until later. Thanks.

[Trenloe]

As mentioned, effects don't change values on the character sheet, they trigger when an action is carried out - in this case an attack against the AC of the creature with the effect. The chat window should report [DEF EFFECTS: -2] (or similar) in the attack string.

If this is not working for you, are you running any extensions? If os, try disabling them. If not, please provide a screenshot showing the combat tracker (with the effects) and the chat window showing the roll result.

[Illyunkas]

I double checked and it is working correctly. Thanks for the help and patience.

[Trenloe]

I double checked and it is working correctly. Thanks for the help and patience.
Cool! :)

[Weissrolf]

Alternatively you can add another weapon action that mimics the original attack, but uses double its damage dice and double the damage modifier. When both attacks hit you use the damage of the alternative weapon action.

https://i.imgur.com/DpgU3Q6.png

When only one of the attacks crit you still need to use the procedure outlined by Trenloe, though.

[Surge]

Does adding the first damage roll to the modifier stack save the damage types with it? I'm guessing not. This mean if you are using two different weapons (Twin Takedown, for example), combining the two damage rolls this way will mess up the amount of damage for each damage type dealt. I'm not sure how this could be done. Probably has to be manual.

[Weissrolf]

You can also create an action entry for twin takedown weapons. You then combine two dice rolls with corresponding damage types into one action. The only problem remaining is when only one of the two rolls crits, which might be easiest for the GM to just adjust manually.

https://i.imgur.com/7BKJlwq.png

[Weissrolf]

Does adding the first damage roll to the modifier stack save the damage types with it? I'm guessing not. This mean if you are using two different weapons (Twin Takedown, for example), combining the two damage rolls this way will mess up the amount of damage for each damage type dealt. I'm not sure how this could be done. Probably has to be manual.
I checked this. The combined damage gets the damage type of the latter weapon being rolled.

Frankly, I don't even know how this is supposed to work in the book?! One alternative interpretation would be that the whole combined strike gets the combined weapon traits of both weapons. So my earlier screenshot of a "Twin Takedown Example" would have to be corrected to get all weapon traits on all rolls. This would be worse than just attacking twice with the non-resisted weapon or leaving damage type per roll. So the GM has to decide how to do this. Overall it seems like a bad idea to use Twin Takedown against foes with applicable resistances.

As a feature request to Trenloe I would like to have a keyboard modifier for untargeted rolls. Something like CTRL+click to roll attack/damage untargeted, similar to how SHIFT+click rolls critical damage. This would make the modifier roll easier.

[Weissrolf]

One consideration: Stacking damage types leads to less average damage compared to applying damage types to each single damage roll. So 1D6+2 + 1D6+2 slashing, piercing is worse than 1D6+2 slashing + 1D6+2 piercing. The former applies both benefits and drawbacks to Twin Takedown, the latter only applies benefits. This also applies when you mix resistances with weaknesses.

At the table I would likely stack types and numbers, because it is much easier and quicker to calculate and the results are often the same (just not on average, aka some rolls differ, most do not). In FG the calculations are done by the computer, so you are more free to choose what fits your group best.

[Surge]

Different damage typed do not ever add together in Pathfinder. Only the same types do. My group and me spent a good while looking into this (and arguing).

[Weissrolf]

Like I said, the difference is minimal in practice, as it often only applies to roles of 1 or 2 on a damage dice. But the calculations are much easier at the table. There is nothing in the rulebook disallowing the combination of damage types and there are lots of examples where damage types are changed due to some special abilities. And then there is page 451 of the CRB, Damage Types and Traits:

"When an attack deals a type of damage, the attack action gains that trait. For example, the Strikes and attack actions you use wielding a sword when its flaming rune is active gain the fire trait, since the rune gives the weapon the ability to deal fire damage." So if those feats that apply strikes had the "Attack" trait then their corresponding attack action would also gain the other combined traits. Curiously none of these feats have the attack trait, which strikes me very odd for feats that specifically "strike" a target.

All that being said, one could argue that the whole resistance calculation for the combined strike of Twin Takedown might be wrong. According to page 453 CRB, Resistances: "If you have more than one type of resistance that would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable resistance value." Twin Takedown should be "the same instance of damage", that is the whole point of it. And it is a *single* action, thus only the highest applicable resistance value should be used. This is specifically different to the next paragraph that describes "resistance to all damage". So combining a piercing with a slashing weapon as Twin Takedown against a foe with "resistance:5 piercing, resistance:5 slashing" should only apply -5 to the combined damage.

This interpretation even works with Trenloe's suggestion of dropping one roll onto the modifier box, just drop the roll with the lower applicable resistance first, the other higher applicable resistance is used by FG then. Of course the GM has to tell the PC which resistance is higher then, even without a knowledge roll, so it's not exactly perfect.

[Willot]

The main thing with flurry of blows is that the damage is combined for purposes of resistances and weaknesses. I'm not aware of any ruleset that allows the automatic combination of damage across multiple attacks. However, the simple process outlined below allows this.

To do this, roll your first and second attacks as normal (using the relevant multi-attack penalties) and if both hit, remove targeting before you roll the first damage so that it just rolls into the chat window but doesn't apply. Then drag the result of the first damage roll to the modifier stack so that the damage is logged as a modifier for the next roll and re-add targeting. Then roll the second damage - the amount from the first roll will be added to the second roll - and as you now have targeting the damage will be applied to the target.

Note: you can quickly disable targeting by clicking the small targeting cross-hairs on the modifier stack beneath the chat window.

So, the steps are:

Make attacks as normal - apply MAP (Multi Attack Penalties) as required.
If both attacks hit, click the targeting cross-hairs on the modifier stack so that it's greyed out.
Roll your first damage, this won't be applied as targeting is disabled at this point.
Drag/drop the result of the damage roll to the modifier stack so that the total damage of the first roll is shown as a modifier and click the cross-hairs so that they aren't greyed out anymore.
Roll the second damage.


I dont think its preserving the damage type from the first damage roll. Seems to if you do it by itself but not if combined with another.
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[Trenloe]

I dont think its preserving the damage type from the first damage roll. Seems to if you do it by itself but not if combined with another.
That process assumes that the second damage roll has a single damage type and is the same as the first.

[Weissrolf]

I checked this. The combined damage gets the damage type of the latter weapon being rolled.

I specifically tested this and reported back some time ago (see above quote). Depending on how you interpret Flurry in practice this may not be so problematic.


... And it is a *single* action, thus only the highest applicable resistance value should be used. ...

This interpretation even works with Trenloe's suggestion of dropping one roll onto the modifier box, just drop the roll with the lower applicable resistance first, the other higher applicable resistance is used by FG then. Of course the GM has to tell the PC which resistance is higher then, even without a knowledge roll, so it's not exactly perfect.

[Willot]

That process assumes that the second damage roll has a single damage type and is the same as the first.

Ahh

[Weissrolf]

That process assumes that the second damage roll has a single damage type and is the same as the first.
In my test multiple damage types do apply for the second roll. Both rolls still need at least one damage type to overlap for the process to work.

That being said: Is it correct that FG applies all resistance even for single rolls? Like I quoted before, Aacording to page 453 CRB, Resistances: "If you have more than one type of resistance that would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable resistance value."

This is not the same as having "resistance to all damage"! Currently FG seems to apply multiple resistances even when a foe does not have "resistance to all damage".

[MaxAstro]

There's some question on the Paizo forums about whether, for example, a flaming rune counts as the same or a separate instance of damage. So if you are using a slashing weapon with a flaming rune against a creature with both slashing and fire resistance does it get both? I don't think there has been an official ruling yet.

The rule about "more than one type of resistance" could easily be talking about the more straightfoward example of a cold iron slashing weapon - in that case it's definitely a single instance of damage, so you'd take the higher of cold iron and slashing resistance.

My personal ruling so far has been elemental runes count as a separate instance of damage - which would mean that Fantasy Grounds is handling it correctly.

[Weissrolf]

I doubt that there will be an "official" ruling. Paizo likes to keep these things vague and thus in the hand of players, even more so in PF2. That being said, what other instance of multiple damage types do you get except for maybe a very few spells? A slashing weapon with a flaming rune is a prototype of "multiple damage types" in the "same instance of damage".

The example of slashing + flaming is even used for the next paragraph about "resistance to all damage" to demonstrate that this is the only instance where you apply all resistances to each damage type separately. Resistances are not meant to negate all damage that easily unless a creature specifically has "resistance to all damage". That's why that paragraph even exists.

[MaxAstro]

I provided an example - a cold iron longsword deals both "cold iron" and "slashing" damage in what is incontrovertibly a single instance of damage.

I see what you are angling at with the paragraph about resistance to all, but it does use slightly different terminology - "an effect deals damage" instead of "instance of damage". I can still see either interpretation being valid.

[Weissrolf]

And a flaming longsword deals both "slashing" and "fire" damage. Yes, the fire damage uses its own dice on top of the slashing dice, but the damage is still done by the sword (original wording in the CRB). Both interpretations can be used, but FG only supports one of them. So in practice we have little choice anyway.

After all these years Paizo still did not learn how to improve this kind of wording. If you write a rule, make it clear. If you want ambiguity then don't write the rule.

[Weissrolf]

Just to mention it: FG/PFRPG2 applies resistances via weapon traits. So a slashing silver weapon is treated the very same as a slashing + fire rune weapon, both are resisted by *all* resistances of an opponent. So effectively FG/PFRPG2 applies the "resistance to all damage" rules to normal multiple resistances as well, regardless of interpretation.

[Trenloe]

Just to mention it: FG/PFRPG2 applies resistances via weapon traits.
FG uses damage types, not weapon traits, for damage resistance, immunity and weakness calculations.

Traits are different. The item page in the Wiki details which weapon traits are used in FG, and none of these are damage types: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/338919425/PFRPG2+Items#Traits

[Weissrolf]

Precious materials don't seem to add item traits, but magical runes use item traits, like "Conjuration, FIRE, magical" for a Flaming rune. These are CRB item traits, not the weapon traits used by FG, though. So there is an understandable confusion of wording. So let's stay with damage type like you suggested

FG uses damage types, FG subtracts all resistances when damage types are present. This is true for a low-grade silver mace just the same as for a mace + flaming rune. I does not seem that FG ever makes use of the "only the highest applicable resistance value should be used" rule!?

[Trenloe]

I'm tracking the issue with weakness and resistance stacking under RS2.097.

[Weissrolf]

Great, thanks. :)