Resource Frustration

[Pogybait]

Like many DMs I run the ultimate license for FG and FGU. A couple of Christmas ago, my wife bought me every book I could want and recently I even purchased the new Eberron and Theros expansions.

I HATE that I cannot sit downstairs in my favorite chair and just read through the references.

We were discussing another member of the group hosting a campaign, and wanted to discuss the rule set; but we couldn't. Where other providers with a Master Tier subscription can share all books among players in a campaign regardless of who purchases, and on a simple web interface... my players cannot access anything unless I'm sitting at my computer desk with the software launched.

It seems like a triviality; go pay $30 everyone.. but people hate paying for the same product across platforms.

If FG is going to remain competitive moving forward; they need to think outside of the Virtual Table Top.. (which I find to be one of the best) and consider the impact of resource access.

Members of my group are starting to branch out into hosting their own games but are hesitant against the large investment. They foresee a future where your competitors are going to include a VTT.

Access to the products you pay for is a core functionality and I feel FG needs to look at bringing those licensed resources to their customers. Accessing any purchased reference reader via an account bound web interface would be a step in the right direction.

Thoughts?

[Moon Wizard]

It's something we want to do; but it's all about priorities. With a small staff, there are only so many projects we can support; and FGU and it's infrastructure alone has us full on all cylinders. In fact, I've worked literally every day since Christmas.

Having a companion tool to read a reference manual from a tablet is something we've talked about quite a bit (along with a host of other projects we'd like to do as well as demanded features (lighting/vision)); but we've got to get FGU to release before we prioritize.

Regards,
JPG

[LordEntrails]

There has been talk before about a reader app. And the devs are interested. Perhaps the move to Unity will make this feasible, it was not on the classic architecture.

It's also a matter of developer resources and licensing agreements. There are many valuable things the devs can work on, they have to determine which are the right ones for their business. Licensing agreements are not something we are privy to, and just because other companies have agreements that allow them to do something, doesn't mean SmiteWorks does.

[GavinRuneblade]

One thing people have figured out is how to load the campaign on your computer then connect with a tablet and you can then read the content anywhere you like.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?44105-Fantasy-Grounds-works-pretty-good-on-an-Android-Tablet

[DM_BK]

I've long thought this is more of an issue with many (not all) game publishers being slow to adjust their business models to match current consumer habits. Forcing people into buying PDFs, hardbound books, and VTT content as separate purchases is something that should have ended years ago.

Can SW make it easier for us access this content? Yes. But it doesn't seem like something they should have to do.

[GavinRuneblade]

I've long thought this is more of an issue with many (not all) game publishers being slow to adjust their business models to match current consumer habits. Forcing people into buying PDFs, hardbound books, and VTT content as separate purchases is something that should have ended years ago.

Can SW make it easier for us access this content? Yes. But it doesn't seem like something they should have to do.

The first VTT that designs their software to use epub format natively inside the VTT itself will own the community. Already publishers can easily give codes for an epub book with a physical sale (and the reverse) and it is the dominant format for tablets and other devices. But making it work with a VTT's UI would not be trivial.

[Lonewolf]

Once upon a time you could get a D&D book in a PDF and share it. Then they where banned and content pulled from all distributors. The two best things that every happen in the hobby was:

1. The open gaming license that reinvigorated and substained the hobby. Long enough for the internet to catch up.
2. Smiteworks pitch to allow electronic distribution in a VTT. Which changed things all over again.

I can understand that people feel entitled to get books on mutiple platforms. Without considering how that content actually gets produced and licensed. We will always get the argument that physical book will not load into D&D beyond and be visible on Roll20. Then see a demand for Smitworks to fix the issue. What was Amazon thinking in creating this mess !!! I suggest Apple should fix the Android store now to allow access to RPG gaming content :p

[OverCriticalHit]

I've suggested it in another thread, but some kind of relationship with Beyond would be great. I know that Beyond isn't run by WotC, but I am much more likely to buy material from Beyond if I get some consideration for the fact that I've already bought it via FG, and I would think vice versa. The net effect could be positive for both entities. I'm sure it's something that's already been thought of, but just putting it out there as +1.

[danman71]

I like how Paizo handles it with Pathfinder2e. Buy the FG content and get the PDF at Paizo for free. Or buy the PDF from Paizo and get the price as a discount off FG Content. Even better if you buy the print copy subscription from Paizo as you get the PDF for free and still get the discount at FG. Makes getting it much more affordable.

[bmos]

I like how Paizo handles it with Pathfinder2e. Buy the FG content and get the PDF at Paizo for free. Or buy the PDF from Paizo and get the price as a discount off FG Content. Even better if you buy the print copy subscription from Paizo as you get the PDF for free and still get the discount at FG. Makes getting it much more affordable.The only thing holding this back from working this way with other publishers is their lack of support. Wizard of the Coast could do a fairly easy integration like Paizo does and add any purchased books to the user's DnDBeyond account, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I would assume the agreement with Fandom Games (the company that made/runs DNDBeyond) precludes such a tie-in.

[GavinRuneblade]

The only thing holding this back from working this way with other publishers is their lack of support. Wizard of the Coast could do a fairly easy integration like Paizo does and add any purchased books to the user's DnDBeyond account, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I would assume the agreements with Fandom Games preclude such a tie-in.

Wizards cant add anything to Beyond because Wizards don't own Beyond it is a third party. They could cut a deal with Beyond for Beyond to do it though. but this would alienate the community that doesn't use Beyond. So Wizards would also have to split their profits 4 ways, keeping some for themselves and giving the rest to roll20, beyond, and FG.

The problem is we have 5 competing non-interchangeable formats (physical book, pdf, beyond, roll20, FG) and people only want to pay 1 time. Everyone wants their slice of the pie and no one is going to abandon their format. Television has been wrestling with this problem for 60 years without solving it. Netflix almost became a 1-stop shop, but then Amazon and then everyone else and now we're fractured again. Just like streaming video, consumers are screwed and will have to get used to paying multiple places if they want it all, or pay just one and accept the limits that come with that.

Or someone can figure out a truly interchangeable format (my vote is on epub). I'm not holding my breath on this.

[LordEntrails]

Or someone can figure out a truly interchangeable format (my vote is on epub). I'm not holding my breath on this.
There are Content Management Systems such as Arbortext that could resolve this problem. But that would require millions of dollars be invested by WotC (the software and needed implementation services are not cheap) and substantial amounts by FG, DDB, Roll20 etc. AND would require a major cultural shift by the content creators. They would have to learn new way of working. And creatives are usually very adverse to such.

A CMS system allows content to be created once, and like XML Style Sheets, allows the output into multiple formats. The simple part of structured content translation is actually fairly easy. The details, and incorporating various cultures, is not. CMS works for large corporations and government organizations because their often is one high level person with a vision who can say "thou shalt do it this way or you can go find a new job/new customer/etc". It doesn't work in a small industries (RPGs are a small industry) where many people don't feel they are getting paid enough to follow some dictate from elsewhere from someone "who doesn't know what it takes to do my job".

Someday, when CMS systems are less expensive and have a smaller learning curve and cultural shift to overcome, the RPG industry will adopt them and then multiple formats will be much less expensive to create and maintain, but I see that as probably 20 years off, maybe more. I would be surprised if any the mid or high level managers/executives in the RPG industry even were aware of the capabilities of CMS systems. So they simply are not on the radar so to speak. It won't be until industry outsiders or writers with experience in CMS systems start to trickle into the industry can start to raise awareness and change culture.

[bmos]

Wizards cant add anything to Beyond because Wizards don't own Beyond it is a third party. They could cut a deal with Beyond for Beyond to do it though. but this would alienate the community that doesn't use Beyond. So Wizards would also have to split their profits 4 ways, keeping some for themselves and giving the rest to roll20, beyond, and FG.

The problem is we have 5 competing non-interchangeable formats (physical book, pdf, beyond, roll20, FG) and people only want to pay 1 time. Everyone wants their slice of the pie and no one is going to abandon their format. Television has been wrestling with this problem for 60 years without solving it. Netflix almost became a 1-stop shop, but then Amazon and then everyone else and now we're fractured again. Just like streaming video, consumers are screwed and will have to get used to paying multiple places if they want it all, or pay just one and accept the limits that come with that.

Or someone can figure out a truly interchangeable format (my vote is on epub). I'm not holding my breath on this.To be fair though, Paizo did demonstrate that it can be done. The approach of "buy on paizo and get a discount at FG" is a pretty decent compromise so SmiteWorks gets paid, too.

[GavinRuneblade]

To be fair though, Paizo did demonstrate that it can be done. The approach of "buy on paizo and get a discount at FG" is a pretty decent compromise so SmiteWorks gets paid, too.

Agreed. It can be done.

[GavinRuneblade]

CMS works for large corporations and government organizations because their often is one high level person with a vision who can say "thou shalt do it this way or you can go find a new job/new customer/etc". It doesn't work in a small industries (RPGs are a small industry) where many people don't feel they are getting paid enough to follow some dictate from elsewhere from someone "who doesn't know what it takes to do my job".

Yup, exactly this.

[OverCriticalHit]

So Wizards would also have to split their profits 4 ways, keeping some for themselves and giving the rest to roll20, beyond, and FG.

I obviously don't have the data, but I reckon they could all still come out ahead. I am pretty unlikely to rebuy everything I have already bought on FG on Beyond, but if there was a discount I would be much more likely to go for it. Scale that up by however many are in the same boat as me, and it could turn out to be a net positive.

[LordEntrails]

I obviously don't have the data, but I reckon they could all still come out ahead. I am pretty unlikely to rebuy everything I have already bought on FG on Beyond, but if there was a discount I would be much more likely to go for it. Scale that up by however many are in the same boat as me, and it could turn out to be a net positive.
Maybe. But it's such an obvious strategy that I imagine Wizards has already considered it and with a lot more information than we will ever be privy to and they have decided not to. So it seems unlikely that they feel it would be a more profitable approach.

[OverCriticalHit]

Maybe. But it's such an obvious strategy that I imagine Wizards has already considered it and with a lot more information than we will ever be privy to and they have decided not to. So it seems unlikely that they feel it would be a more profitable approach.

Yeah, that's the thing. Going by efficient market theory (sort of), if it should exist it would. Probably the next best hope would be a reader with hooks of some sort into FG as discussed up the thread. Here's hoping.

[Griogre]

The problem can also be there can also be a high level person, ie Hasbro - who can say "thou shalt do it this way or you can go find a new job/new customer/etc" - who doesn't like CMS. WotC feels they were badly burned by early PDF piracy and there could be legacy reasons for a slow adoption. They are obviously changing with the creation of the DM's Guild and the licensing arrangements with VTTs but I wouldn't expect them to be early adopters.

[gmask1]

It's something we want to do; but it's all about priorities. With a small staff, there are only so many projects we can support; and FGU and it's infrastructure alone has us full on all cylinders. In fact, I've worked literally every day since Christmas.

Having a companion tool to read a reference manual from a tablet is something we've talked about quite a bit (along with a host of other projects we'd like to do as well as demanded features (lighting/vision)); but we've got to get FGU to release before we prioritize.

Regards,
JPG

I don't want to disrupt the other conversations in the thread, I just had no idea that a companion tool was on the roadmap even if it is a ways off. It's great to know that it's something that might appear down the track. :)

[DM_BK]

Paizo is definitely leading the way here...it's a far cry better then what WoTC is doing. But I also think a lot of this comes down to the fact that WoTC doesn't feel the need to change, they are outselling everyone else and likely feel very little pressure to make hard changes.

[Milmoor]

I am reading my books on the couch. I read the Reference Manual on my laptop, or on my iPad via RDP to a desktop PC. Both work reasonably well. It's not paper, but the conversion is decent. Those resources are linked to your forum account, not your Ultimate licence, which gives some problems and some wiggle room.

[Fear Grounds]

Modiphius gives you a free PDF copy of any of their books you buy, whether you buy it from them or anywhere else. You just send them a picture of your receipt and the book(s) purchased.

This discussion has me wondering if they could/would provide the free PDF, with a proof of purchase of the fantasy grounds converted content???

[OverCriticalHit]

if they could/would provide the free PDF

AFAIK WotC don't do PDFs for their premium content and probably never will. To consume the material digitally, you need to do it via Beyond, FG or Roll20.

[OverCriticalHit]

I read the Reference Manual on my laptop

Do you have any tips for doing so? I find it pretty cumbersome, and the scrolling can be slow. I doubt there's much secret tech, but just wondering if you have any advice.

[Fear Grounds]

AFAIK WotC don't do PDFs for their premium content and probably never will. To consume the material digitally, you need to do it via Beyond, FG or Roll20.

Hasbro/WotC would loose too much profit due to sharing.

Paizo, does.
Modiphius does.
Onyx Path does.
Along with plenty others...

[damned]

Wizards of the Coast saw sales of digital and physical books fall off a cliff when they sold PDFs of their current product.
Now there is more than one side to that story, but the rampant sharing of those PDFs was a clear cut message to them - there are too many people who firmly believe if you can download it you can download it.

I dont think we will see a cross-platform agreement anytime soon. SW, R20, DnDB all need to make their cut too.
There is pretty much no incentive for WotC other than generating some goodwill.
The Wizards created pretty substantial free content with their Basic Rules and did that right out of the gate.
They also worked with SW to lower the price of digital content on Fantasy Grounds.

For every analogy that you show of where people do give you access in multiple formats you can also show one where you have to pay full price every time.

[Fear Grounds]

Not to mention all the free stuff that has been given away during this whole quarantine process. There's absolutely no way for a company to make everyone happy. So each one does the best that they can.

[Milmoor]

Do you have any tips for doing so? I find it pretty cumbersome, and the scrolling can be slow. I doubt there's much secret tech, but just wondering if you have any advice.
Unfortunately FG can be slow on some machines when drawing lots of text. More info and some tips here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?43743-Graphical-performance-hit-when-drawing-text&p=515046&viewfull=1#post515046). In the end, I bought a new PC. That one does work fast, even via RDP. RDP itself has a niggle (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?58713-FG-screen-not-updating-anymore-in-RDP) though. A restart of FG solves this.
For the reading itself: I make my Reference Manual windows fill the entire FG Window. I move the dice to the side. I read by clicking the arrows at the bottom. It's touchscreen so scrolling is a bit cumbersome, but it works.

Does this help?

[OverCriticalHit]

Unfortunately FG can be slow on some machines when drawing lots of text. More info and some tips here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?43743-Graphical-performance-hit-when-drawing-text&p=515046&viewfull=1#post515046)Does this help?

Definitely. My machine is pretty wimpy, so that probably explains it.

[Lonewolf]

Wizards of the Coast saw sales of digital and physical books fall off a cliff when they sold PDFs of their current product.
Now there is more than one side to that story, but the rampant sharing of those PDFs was a clear cut message to them - there are too many people who firmly believe if you can download it you can download it.

Yes indeed WOTC have been here before and tried doing it another way. People are forgetting gaming history here. Apart from withdrawal of all PDFs. Partnership with Piazo and OneBooks ended overnight. All online free content for previous editions was also removed. The D20 trademark license was also suspended in favour of a more restrictive version. Lucky for Piazo the OGL which covered the rules was irrevocable.

Given the state of affairs surrounding 4th Edition. I still find it amazing that SW got a deal for the 5th Edition books. They really melted the ice.