Basic Forum Design?

[JGawain]

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I am sorry. I really am, but this is a novice level web design. It is mindblowing that no one has brought this up by now.


Issue 1
Basic Forum Navigation

Short story = Friend asked me something about FG I did not know, so we searched and failed to find. Solution = I told him to post a new thread to find out. He responds with "I can't???" As a former forum manager, I could only ask, "What?" So I attempted to log on only to find a long drawn out battle with the Password Recover protocols and an obsolete format for messageboard layouts. It is no wonder he found it obtuse, there are features directly designed to be counter-intuitive.

Everyone is directed to a stream of non-categorized threads. Fine whatever, it's been done, and normally not an issue.
a) Flaw; no obvious link to the actual categories.
b) Fixed; One redundant issue down.
c) Flaw; No New Thread button??? You usually have to do one or the other. Resolve issue A or C.
d) Epic Flaw; Help on posting a thread instructs users to use bold, italic, etc. Wow, unuseful and it doesn't even answer the question. This is just sloppy.

Suggestions;
a) Good; Place a link under the forum tabs called "Post Threads, Thread Categories," or anything to that effect. Something to lead the user to the forum category section where they can actually post a thread. Refer to suggestion C.
b) Excellent; Reading the words (New Posts) can be interpreted as creating a "new thread." Retitled the page (Recent Posts)
c) Good; Place a "New Thread" button on your streaming page and link it to a "General" category on your forum home page. This will at least get new users started. Never should a new user have to search for this button as it effectively prevents them from resolving a forum issue.
d) Obvious; If you don't take any of the above suggestions, then under [ Help ] where it explains how to post, add the following; Posting a thread may only be done in the thread category section. Some categories are limited to moderators and Devs. In categories where permission is granted a (Post New Thread) button should appear to the top left of the listed threads. For a complete list of categories click here [enter link to catigories].

As a web designer, you have to ask how many users failed to post a thread and just gave up. The whole point of a message board is to aid in communication. If users cannot find the Post a New Thread button, then you have failed at the intended objective.

Issue 2
Password Recovery Protocols.

This is how it currently works.
1) Good; The user has an issue logging in, so they click on password recovery which directs them to enter their e-mail address.
2) Very Bad; Upon pressing submit the protocol sends two e-mails that are effectively junk mail having nothing to do with password recovery.
*) Partially Fixed; The advert e-mail is no longer sent with the recovery. However, the system can still be improved.
3) Worse; A few minutes later (enough time to read the junk mail more than once) the third e-mail in the same format as the first two is sent with actual instructions and a temp password.
*) Partially Fixed. Improved latency between the authentication e-mail and the temp password e-mail, but there is still no need for multiple e-mails.

*Insert twitchy eyebrow here.

Ok sending a temp password is find, however, the extra junk mail is a distraction which only conditions the reader to ignore the useless text and just click the link, because if an administrative service is utilizing this method it should lead to an auto-login which immediately opens the setting section where the user can change their password. So by falsely directing them to the login (that they cannot use) in each junk mail, it leads the user to believe the Password protocols are using a broken link. Literally, I tested this out on my friend without telling him the punchline and he fell into the same trap. We were both paid, web developers. The last thing you want to do while attempting to resolve an issue is to advertise the product. (Partially fixed)

Easiest solution = Change the protocol to send only one letter with strictly information that is pertinent to password recovery.

Again I apologize for being short, but I am not being paid for this. It is free advice from a retired professional web designer.

[Sarteck]

It's really just a basic vBulletin forum. Format seems pretty simple. You go into a forum, you see the threads, and (if you are logged in) bright, shiny blue "Post new thread" button.

[JGawain]

@Sarteck = The forums service itself is not the issue, navigation is, which is completely at the discretion of the web designer. Upon logging in or clicking "New Posts" in the forum drop down, the user is navigated to a stream of uncategorized threats without any direction to the categories. For a new user who wanted to create a new post, this is obviously deceiving. The user has to navigate through these threads to find the categories or search in vain for a link that should be obvious. A lot of this could be resolved with simple relabeling.

The issue is strictly for new users. Keep in mind you have hindsight and it is hard for some people to acknowledge that. The primary incentive to create a forum account is because you failed to find some information via a web search and now desire to ask for help by posting a question. Communication in general is usually the ladder as we have all signed up to forums we no longer associated with. Association only lasts as long a there is a need or desire to communicate which is why most people limit their forum activity to as few forum services as they need. This is important as it suggests the initial activity of most users and what they will be looking for once they log on.

As the majority of new users are incentified to ask a question or say something and the "New Posts" tab and button can misdirect them to a streaming-based board without an option to create new threads, it is an obvious yet unintentional web trap. There are many styles of forums that are only stream-based. In fact, this style is the most common among Steam-based games, which of course FG is offered on Steam. That said, even Steam includes a way to post new threads using a stream style discussion board. Now new users may stumble into the base forums by accident, others are directed by friends with hindsight, but the third category has to navigate the web page on their own. If it is not well laid out then it can be an annoying challenge just to achieve the primary reason they signed up to the forum.

Here let's make this simpler, Read my suggestions. If the designer implemented them today would it make it easier or harder to navigate the forum page? I think if you are honest the answer is obvious.

In the "New Posts" page, add a large button where the Create New Threads should be and link it to the forum Categories.
Another one in the "Forum" tab dropdowns, this is where redundancy is not bad as not everyone application uses tab titles to navigate.
Eliminate the useless (new posts) button on the streaming forum or simply rename it to reflect its actual function (Refresh).
Clarify the Help menu.

This is simple stuff man. It does not take a rocket scientist, and a lazy developer could do this in 15 to 20 minutes.

[Nylanfs]

Perhaps you should make a proposal and pitch it to the owner?

[JGawain]

I am retired for a reason. Granted I was much more cordial when I was paid, but I cannot fix the world's problems and this is not a hard fix, to say the least. I have seen this covered in 15 different web development books. It is more of an issue of desire on the designer's part than skill because if they crafted this page it shows they know how to manage protocols and basic web layout.

FGU is one of the most complicated VTT in existence. I am fairly confident they have the skill.

[Zacchaeus]

I am retired for a reason. Granted I was much more cordial when I was paid, but I cannot fix the world's problems and this is not a hard fix, to say the least. I have seen this covered in 15 different web development books. It is more of an issue of desire on the designer's part than skill because if they crafted this page it shows they know how to manage protocols or basic web layout. They should not need a third party saying this is how to push a button.

I think the point is that your ire should be directed at vBulletin rather than here.

[JGawain]

Once again [reincert twitchy eyebrow] the issue is not the application but the navigation of this site. You control your bulletin app, you composed the auto-reply e-mails, and you laid out this web page.

So, It is not the forum program causing the issues.

It is a misleading web design and an over-aggressive desire to pitch a product that is already in use.

If there is a more appropriate category within the Fantasy Grounds forums for this subject, then I am open to suggestions.

[LordEntrails]

Everyone has their own priorities. Right now the developers (including the web developer) for FG has FGU as their priority, not revamping the site forums. Taking time to revamp the forums is valuable, but apparently it has not been deemed more important than other things that could be worked on. But, as said, make a proposal and/or add to the Wish List. SmiteWorks is very good about listening to feedback.

If it helps, I tried going through your post and here's what I see.

Obvious Link to Categories - I don't see this myself. Each category link is the bolded category name itself. This is very common on forums I frequent such as EnWorld, GiTPG, and others. Maybe it's not good design, but it certainly seems to be common. Or am I missing what you are saying? (I might be, I'm very familiar with how things are, so might be making assumptions.)

New Posts is different than Refresh. New Posts will show a logged in user posts that are new since their last login/refresh. This will pull posts from all the categories. Refresh simple refreshes the web page of where you are at. This will show posts in the category you are viewing that are new. Does that make sense? This too is common to many forums I visit, but might not be good design either.

News Thread button. Yea, until you are in a category you don't see one. I could see this being available on the home page, but it would have to force you to select a category.

Help on Posting a thread - Not familiar with what you are referring to. Is this something on the FAQ or some help link I'm unaware of? Sounds like something needs to be updated. Can you provide the link and perhaps a suggestion on what it should say?

As for PAssword Reset. I just went throught he process and I didn't get the same experience. Not sure why.

I only got 1 email, and it had good instructions and a link, not a temporary password. No idea why my experience was different than yours.

(Note, please don't take this as disagreeing with you or 'being defensive' just trying to replicate your experience and provide a different view. Which, as you note is from someone familiar with the way things work around here. And acknowledging that how things work now doesn't mean its how they should work best.)

[Trenloe]

Welcome to the FG forums @JGawain.

Thanks for your detailed feedback. So far everyone who's added to the discussion here are community users/moderators. So none of this is controlled by the people who've responded.

Hopefully the people who actually do this will spot your feedback and recommendations. And I'm sure they'll reach out if there's anything you can help with. If you'd like to engage them directly you can email [email protected]

Thanks again for taking the time to provide such detailed feedback.

[ddavison]

I’ve been a member of numerous forums over the decades and we continued the use of vBulletin because it was a pretty straightforward forum software with a good mix of usability and support. Other than configuring human verification questions and choosing the style and forum categories, it’s pretty much out of the box with default options.

Yes, we could rework how certain things work under the covers, but doing so makes the site more brittle. I won’t be able to simply install security updates as they release. The password reset, New Posts and website layout are generic vBulletin components. We are using a responsive theme that uses some updated CSS but it doesn’t really change the navigation.

There is an option to turn off New Posts. I’ve done that in the past and was immediately bombarded by requests for its return. When you first logged in, you ended up in New Posts and not the root of the forum? If so, that is something I wasn’t aware of and there may be a config to change that.

[JGawain]

Alright, we have seen some recent updates, which is a good sign.

First; Let's start with Password Recovery, because for some reason when I logged in a few minutes ago, the site could not retain my password. Not sure what is up with that, but I checked the auto password file and everything is correct. I tried manually to no avail. Unknown.

Anywho, the recovery process has reduced by one e-mail. The one that most represents Junkmail. "Hey check out these features, blaw, blaw, blaw." But they still opted for two e-mail authentication. Not sure what the first e-mail is supposed to prove, but at least they trimmed some of the fat. Additionally, the latency between the first and second e-mails was much better. My first attempt a few days ago had a 13-minute delay.

36723 This is the first letter and they really don't need it. There is really no practical reason to confirm an e-mail a second time, and if you are going to authenticate via an e-mail link then why not just auto-log to a change password setting page? You would be eliminating unnecessary steps for a non-issue.

36719 If you are not going to link an Auto-Login then this is the only letter the user needs. The only possible benefit to a double authentication is to prevent random password changes due to someone incorrectly entering an email address. However, if the protocol is written correctly then the original password should override and cancel a temp password generated by the system. This would prevent random recovery due to human error without affecting accessibility.

Conclusion = This is a step in the correct direction but there is room to improve. These protocols are accessible through the base program, or at least they were 8 years ago, and they were never that difficult to modify.

Second; This is the page that needs work. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2360215

I have already said everything I need to about the vocabulary of "New Posts," and if it is truly the rebranding of "Recent Posts" then I need to have a long talk with Roger P. You could do better by calling it by the original title and you should be able to retitle it without trouble. Doing so would accomplish the desired effect without misleading the user. Update, the redundant button titled "New Posts" on the page also titled "New Posts" has been replaced by just the text. It is no longer a button to refresh the page, so that is one misleading distraction down.

That said, new users can easily be directed to this page so having a "Post New Thread" at the top left of this list only seems prudent. It could easily be linked to one category in the forum list. To give you an example, I asked my friend's wife to show her husband up by posting a thread. Without help, she created an account and got stuck on the same exact page. She did eventually figure it out but it took her some time. So it is not as intuitive as you might assume. The text "New Posts" is deceptive.

Third; This is what you get from Google when you type "How to post a thread in fantasy grounds forums?" https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_reading_posting#:~:text=As%20a%20r egistered%20user%20you,the%20end%20of%20the%20thre ad.

Granted this is not the only help menu, but the following one took a little more effort to find. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage

Alright, here is two issues I found;

a) The board home page has a list of categories and forums = No it doesn't! The home page lists the Officially Licensed Systems along with links to the store page. The "Forums Tab" acts as the board home page, but the new user does not see "Board Home Page" anywhere on the site. There is however a "Home" button. See how poor vocabulary can lead to misinformation?

b) To start a new thread simply click on the + Post New Thread button (you may need the right permissions to do this). But, where could this button be located on the "New Posts" page? That trap that seems superbly written to confuse new users.

As many of these issues can be chalked up to poor vocabulary, I am led to believe that the first language of the author who wrote these pages might not be English. Regardless, the instructions on how and where to find the Post New Thread buttons should be listed on both help menus, or better yet they should be combined to condense the information.

[Trenloe]

As you obviously want to spend time giving good feedback on this I recommend you email [email protected] - point them to this thread. This will make sure the correct people get to review the information, rather than it getting lost within a busy public forum. If the SmiteWorks folks who can make changes to the forums aren’t aware of this, then you’re wasting your time as everyone else reading this thread can’t make changes.

[damned]

First; Let's start with Password Recovery, because for some reason when I logged in a few minutes ago, the site could not retain my password. Not sure what is up with that, but I checked the auto password file and everything is correct. I tried manually to no avail. Unknown.



Passwords are not saved for you on the site. They are saved for you locally either by way of browser, browser plugin or browser cookie. Either way, it is something that occurs locally.



Anywho, the recovery process has reduced by one e-mail. The one that most represents Junkmail. "Hey check out these features, blaw, blaw, blaw." But they still opted for two e-mail authentication. Not sure what the first e-mail is supposed to prove, but at least they trimmed some of the fat. Additionally, the latency between the first and second e-mails was much better. My first attempt a few days ago had a 13-minute delay.


As others posted, I did not receive this other first (third) email on doing a PW reset. Perhaps it was completely unrelated to the password request change?



36723 This is the first letter and they really don't need it. There is really no practical reason to confirm an e-mail a second time, and if you are going to authenticate via an e-mail link then why not just auto-log to a change password setting page? You would be eliminating unnecessary steps for a non-issue.

36719 If you are not going to link an Auto-Login then this is the only letter the user needs. The only possible benefit to a double authentication is to prevent random password changes due to someone incorrectly entering an email address. However, if the protocol is written correctly then the original password should override and cancel a temp password generated by the system. This would prevent random recovery due to human error without affecting accessibility.

Conclusion = This is a step in the correct direction but there is room to improve. These protocols are accessible through the base program, or at least they were 8 years ago, and they were never that difficult to modify.



This is very much standard, and desired practice. You request a password reset and the system emails you for confirmation. You reset the password and you get a confirmation that it has happened. You dont have to wait to receive the second email, it is for your reference only. I may be misinterpreting what you are saying as the behavior looks normal to me.




Second; This is the page that needs work. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2360215



Yes. vBulletin searches are awful. Use Site Search.





I have already said everything I need to about the vocabulary of "New Posts," and if it is truly the rebranding of "Recent Posts" then I need to have a long talk with Roger P. You could do better by calling it by the original title and you should be able to retitle it without trouble. Doing so would accomplish the desired effect without misleading the user. Update, the redundant button titled "New Posts" on the page also titled "New Posts" has been replaced by just the text. It is no longer a button to refresh the page, so that is one misleading distraction down.

That said, new users can easily be directed to this page so having a "Post New Thread" at the top left of this list only seems prudent. It could easily be linked to one category in the forum list. To give you an example, I asked my friend's wife to show her husband up by posting a thread. Without help, she created an account and got stuck on the same exact page. She did eventually figure it out but it took her some time. So it is not as intuitive as you might assume. The text "New Posts" is deceptive.



It may well be that New Posts is not intuitive but the dearth of posts stating such a thing suggests it is not something many people either find challenging, or find annoying enough to post about.

The New Posts button is extremely useful and important. Removing this would reduce the ability/willingness of users to contribute responses back on posts where they can offer assistance/advice/tips/answers to others. Example, a member posting in Rolemaster Classic would otherwise be exposed only to other readers of Rolemaster Classic whereas her issue might be answerable and answered by others who never use that system.

Posting New Threads is not anywhere near the most common action/activity.




Third; This is what you get from Google when you type "How to post a thread in fantasy grounds forums?" https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_reading_posting#:~:text=As%20a%20r egistered%20user%20you,the%20end%20of%20the%20thre ad.

Granted this is not the only help menu, but the following one took a little more effort to find. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage

Alright, here is two issues I found;

a) The board home page has a list of categories and forums = No it doesn't! The home page lists the Officially Licensed Systems along with links to the store page. The "Forums Tab" acts as the board home page, but the new user does not see "Board Home Page" anywhere on the site. There is however a "Home" button. See how poor vocabulary can lead to misinformation?

b) To start a new thread simply click on the + Post New Thread button (you may need the right permissions to do this). But, where could this button be located on the "New Posts" page? That trap that seems superbly written to confuse new users.

Yes, posting a new thread does require you to make several more clicks than is required for reading new posts.
If you have a single product that requires only a single category of posts then a simple Add New Thread button is easy to have always available.
When there are many products and many associated activities then it is best to put the new post in the correct location so that it is more easily found by later readers who might be having a similar question.

Yes - the Home button could be misleading when you are in the Forum and only thinking of the Forum. There is also a Forum menu link which is pretty self explanatory and a Home Icon which is likewise fairly universally recognized.


As many of these issues can be chalked up to poor vocabulary, I am led to believe that the first language of the author who wrote these pages might not be English. Regardless, the instructions on how and where to find the Post New Thread buttons should be listed on both help menus, or better yet they should be combined to condense the information.

The content on these pages is supplied with the vBulletin software. The same text is in use on hundreds of thousands of websites.

[JGawain]

@Damned

Skimming never helped anyone, so I will address your reply one issue at time.

1a) Passwords are not saved for you on the site = Well in fact they are just not in the way you are thinking, but the passage was not suggesting that. Of course, they are saved client-side. The fact is I have used the same password for all my RPG stuff (for decades.) I want to say, at this point, I have changed it back to that password four times now. Copy pasting the whole way, yet here we are. I have had to reset my password way too many times to be a local issue. The text illustrated that, nothing more.

1b) If you are receiving the temp password prior to requesting it, then there is something seriously wrong with the protocols. If you would have bothered to read the enclosed images, (E-mail One) states that you have to click on the link to reset your password. They don't send the temp password if you do not complete that extra (arguably needless) step and they send the Temp Password in a second e-mail. So, yes you have to wait for it. As for the third e-mail, (aka the one that arrived in my inbox before anything partially useful) - I find it very improbable that they redundantly send an advertisement e-mail that magically coincided with my four or so Password Recovery attempts. The odds don't favor it. More likely it was a remanent of code or setting they forgot to turn off after a promotion. I can't say, as I did not keep any of the e-mails because there were pointless. I have also confirmed vBulletin Protocols are still accessible and there are mountains of web resources to set up all of them, in a cornucopia of ways.

2a) Searches suck? That is kind of dependant on your parameters but I won't argue it.

2b) This is a clear case of skimming information. If you would have been following along, I suggested that a button, "not the page," be taken away and they did that. The page I suggest they retitle. I have emailed a few people about this, but what I found is - One of the Devs associated with vBulletin got it in his head to rebrand a few things so he could pretend like he was working. So yes "vBulletin" pulled a stupid, but that does not prevent FG from simply retitling it. Many older sites have, and literally vBulletin did not bother to change most of the references for the feature on their own site.

3a) Web Navigation is not part of the wheelhouse that vBulletin provides. They simply provide the platform and options to establish the desired format. That format is entirely up to the web designer to input into their page design. So, the issue is not that they have categorized forums or one streaming forum, navigation is about how they present that webpage. vBulletin does most of the work but they still have to populate the pages. To give you an example, a web designer can take the id for any feature on their site (Let's say the Log Out Button) and populate an entire page with 100 copies of that button. They would all work. The whole point of web design is that it is limited "only" by your ability to input parameters.

3b) Let me pose this question, FGU will be the most advanced VTT currently available anywhere. Effectively they are setting the benchmark based solely on the love of playing games. Why would you want them to be needlessly generic on an application that is well beneath their skill set, and one of the primary methods by which we organize these games and learn about FG? Honestly, I consider this board an intrinsic part of Fantasy Grounds, and as such, I would want it to reflect that quality.

Well, that is all I have for tonight. See you all in four or so hours.

[Sarteck]

Just a note, passwords are not, in fact, saved in vBulletin software. As a 6-year admin of the software (2007-2012, both vB3 and vB4), I can attest to this fact. The password you enter is hashed (not "encrypted" mind you, which implies it can be "decrypted," but "hashed," meaning it cannot be recovered). That hash is then combined with a salt and hashed again. That hashed-salted-hashed string is stored in the MySQL database that the forum operates on. There is no way you, the admins, or anyone else can retrieve your password short of you using that string by logging in (and again going through the hashed-salted-hashed method).

EDIT: Also Note, this method is used in ANY and EVERY modern website.

EDIT 2: Actually, 6-year. It's been so long, I got my years screwed up. :P

[JGawain]

@Sarteck

The problem is explaining it in layman terms. Not to insult anyone but most users on a forum are not skilled coders or database specialists. Finding that happy medium that nutshells it without dropping so much text that they don't read it can be a challenge. @damned obviously skimmed and assumed rather than actually comprehending. Now that is not entirely his fault because when you address a complicated issue (does not matter what) in an open platform it is kind of like having your mechanic backseat advise your doctor on a medical procedure.

So Passwords kept on the net? Yes but not in the way most think, and more important "not the point of the OP." The point was recovery protocols. The distraction apparently is = I did all the steps to ensure that the password was entered correctly and something still went wrong. A completely separate issue.

Now I do apologize to everyone. I am attempting to word this in a way so that everyone can understand, but I can't force people to read it. If someone is the type to read just the headlines and comment on a subject, that is their choice. However, to those who extend the courtesy to read between the lines then I will do the same for them.

I am also not going to do the work for FG. I have spent decades being asked to fix novice level issues both paid and unpaid. A large majority of the time, the client had the ability but they just did not want to spend the time to figure it out. That is not my cup of tea anymore. I have helped program satellites and formula 1 race cars. I have taught classes on this stuff years and I have no interest in being a teacher anymore. Retired means retired, but I will point out sloppiness, inefficiency, unnecessary redundancies, and logistical issues. I leave it to them to fix it.

[LordEntrails]

The President of SmiteWorks has commented on this thread. I believe the issues have been raised in detail. SmiteWorks is aware of them and have made their response. The support email address has been given to the OP if he would like to discuss further directly with SmiteWorks.

I don't see significant increased value by continuing the discussion here. But I do see mounting frustration. Why don't we let this thread lie. Please.

[Moon Wizard]

Closing thread. Any further feedback on the website can be sent to [email protected]; and will be forwarded to ddavison.

Regards,
JPG