It's my fault, but...

[bkyrlach]

Hey, as a fellow software developer, I know how hard it is to make everyone happy. I'm sure that folks are had at work on the issues I'm about to discuss. And, ultimately, I probably should have done more research on the state of the game before I bought it. All that being said, I'm incredibly disappointed and frustrated with what amounts to the ~$250 I apparently just lit on fire for absolutely no reason.

I've heard so many positive things about Fantasy Grounds from DM's I respect online, so I dropped some cash on the ultimate license so that I could...

1) Convert my group over from Roll20 to FG
2) Convert my group over from D&D 5e to PF 2e

So far, I have to say, my experience with FG has been absolutely miserable.

The UI feels clunky and unintuitive.
Even though I purchased this through Steam, I have to manually refresh my DLC content on the FG website.

Okay, okay, this is a PF 2e forum, so let's talk about the state of 2e in FG.

First, unless there's a UI option I'm missing, I have to manually share every relevant entry in the core rulebook before my players on the demo license can use them in character creation.
Character creation itself is totally broken (and before you reply to this point, I get that FG is not a character creation tool, but...)
* Dragging your heritage on to your character sheet does nothing.
* I can't find a way to manually edit hero points or XP
* Most of the class features and feats don't seem implemented.
** Example: Rangers at level 5 gain weapon expertise. This doesn't update proficiencies correctly. In fact, the character sheet actions tab is only showing the dex mod applying to the weapon. It's not even adding in the trained bonus.
** Example: Fleet (general feat) doesn't increase character sheet move speed.
** Example: No class actions added to the actions tab (Hunt Prey, Hunters Aim, etc...)
* Leveling up means dragging the same class over to the character class section of the book

It feels highly disingenuous to say that FG supports Pathfinder 2E in it's current state. Especially with what's being automatically tracked/updated vs. what's not being automatically tracked/updated making it impossible for anyone to trust what the system is saying. The aforementioned Ranger character's armor looks right, but their Longbow certainly doesn't. Which of those numbers should I trust? Why even bother tracking my character in FG if half the things on my character sheet are going to be flat out wrong? For my playgroup of players who are just now getting comfortable with 5e, dropping them into FG to play Pathfinder seems untenable.

I know this is ranty. I'm sure the answer is, wait for future updates. I'm just really frustrated. I wish I hadn't just lit $250 on fire. :(

[Trenloe]

Welcome to the FG forums bkyrlach. Sorry you feel disappointed with the PF2 implementation.

A few responses to your comments:

First, unless there's a UI option I'm missing, I have to manually share every relevant entry in the core rulebook before my players on the demo license can use them in character creation.
The players have to open any library modules themselves - then they'll have access to all of the data in that module. Info here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/950555/Using+the+Library+and+Activating+Modules#Module-Activation


* Dragging your heritage on to your character sheet does nothing.
The standard way to add a heritage is via the selection window that pops up when you add an ancestry. But, this inability to drag a heritage to the PC sheet was an omission and is fixed in the next release (release 16 which is currently in the test channel).


* I can't find a way to manually edit hero points or XP
Click on the field, the border will highlight to show that you've selected it, then type the value you want. See info here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/688323/Basic+Actions#Number-Fields


* Most of the class features and feats don't seem implemented.
** Example: Rangers at level 5 gain weapon expertise. This doesn't update proficiencies correctly. In fact, the character sheet actions tab is only showing the dex mod applying to the weapon. It's not even adding in the trained bonus.
** Example: Fleet (general feat) doesn't increase character sheet move speed.
** Example: No class actions added to the actions tab (Hunt Prey, Hunters Aim, etc...)
Correct. These have to be implemented manually by the players.



Especially with what's being automatically tracked/updated vs. what's not being automatically tracked/updated making it impossible for anyone to trust what the system is saying. The aforementioned Ranger character's armor looks right, but their Longbow certainly doesn't.
Implementation of automation is ongoing. There have been updates to this, but it will continue to be an ongoing work in progress for the foreseeable future. This unfortunately does mean that you get these areas where for some it works, and for others it doesn't. A good example is the defense and weapon proficiencies that you mention. Defense proficiencies were automated in release 12. Weapon proficiencies will be automated in future, but are a lot more complex than armor proficiencies and so were not just a quick "do them the same way".

I know it can sometimes be confusing. A good way to check is to review the messaging in the chargen tracker - it will say when automation has been applied. Even with that said, it is always worth it for the players (and/or GM) to double check that things have been applied correctly, or what needs updating.

As you say, FG is not a character generator. However, I hope to get it to the point that it does a lot of the work for the players. That is going to take time. This ruleset and accompanying DLC already has more automation than the PF1 product line (which is over 5 years old), and the PF2 product line is all less than 1 year old at this point, with only a few months available prior to release August last year to develop the ruleset and Core Rule DLC.

We've taken the approach of releasing new functionality as it becomes available. This can result in the disingenuous nature you mention, but I believe it is the best way to approach getting new functionality into the product.

As mentioned, there's already a massive amount of information and functionality in the product. And I'm sorry, but yes - I'm going to mention it again, FG is not a character generator. FG is a virtual tabletop that facilitates playing RPGs online with your friends. It's strengths are in campaign management, data organization, the number of official products available, the gaming functionality and operations. I think focusing on your disappointment in FG as a character generator will result in... well, disappointment all round. As I mentioned, I'd like to make character creation better (until recently, with the 5e character guide, the PF2 ruleset was the only FG ruleset with a chargen tracker, for example), and that will happen over time. There is so much, much more to the FG PF2 product line than this.

Only you can decide if the implementation and data isn't enough for you. I would recommend you give it a chance - get to know the product, the data and how it all hangs together. Ask on the forums if you have issues and we'll do our best to guide you. However, if you're truly not satisfied, then SmiteWorks have a 30 day no questions asked refund policy.

However, I know I'm biased, but if you want to play PF2 online with your friends I recommend sticking with FG...

[bkyrlach]

I appreciate your calm response to what I'm sure is a frustrating post. I think the hardest part is just that the automation is partially implemented. Before I can even evaluate the other features of FG, I have to first successfully create a character. My players currently use D&D Beyond + roll20, so this will be a tough adjustment if I want to go down this route.

I notice the documentation you linked to mentions FG Unity. Since I purchased FG off of Steam, it's unclear to me if I'm running FG classic or FG Unity. However, clicking on the XP or HP fields didn't seem to make them editable in any way. Do I just need to download FG Unity? Can demo users also use FG Unity?

[Trenloe]

I notice the documentation you linked to mentions FG Unity. Since I purchased FG off of Steam, it's unclear to me if I'm running FG classic or FG Unity. However, clicking on the XP or HP fields didn't seem to make them editable in any way. Do I just need to download FG Unity? Can demo users also use FG Unity?
You'll have FG classic. However, the functionality for everything except images is the same.

Make sure you click on the field (a small frame around the number box will highlight to show you've selected it) and then type. Number fields don't show a cursor.

[MagiusAlpha]

There's a pretty nasty learning curve to the system, sure - but if you want a crash course on building a character in Pathfinder 2e, just do what I did and download the Community Use Pregenerated Characters from Paizo to load in yourself. You'll already know what the numbers are supposed to be when the characters are loaded in, so you'll be able to figure out what is automated and what needs to be done manually very quickly. Once you know that, it's very easy to walk the players through the character creation process and get them into the game within a reasonable amount of time (for example, last Monday, I had a new player for my Monday night game who had no experience with Pathfinder 2e fully up and playing through a quick encounter in under an hour). The big thing to remember is that the players need to load the options into their system before they can see anything that you did not manually share - but you can set things up so that they only see what you want to allow into your game, so there's a lot less of a chance of them sneaking something in you don't want to see.

There's a definite learning curve, no doubt about it. But now that I've gotten through that learning curve (at least with Pathfinder 2e, though I feel comfortable that I'll be able to apply what I've learned to other systems as well), I'm very happy with my purchase, and am looking at how to integrate it in with my in person playing (both running and as a player). Not sure there will be a viable way to do that until an Android or Apple version are released (maybe with the Unity release) allowing it to be run effectively on relatively cheap tablets, but that's definitely a different topic. What I'm saying is give it some time and take a systematic approach to learning the system (since you're on Steam, take a look at the "Where to start?" threat that Annaisha started in the discussion forum there), and you'll see why those who love the system love it how they do.

[ddavison]

Almost everything in FG is customizable. Once you build your character sheet, you will want to review it and adjust if necessary and then start actually using it in combats. Once you start using the finished character in the combat tracker and start adding in some of the more advanced automation features, it will really start to shine for you.

I wanted to correct something Trenloe incorrectly stated above, though. SmiteWorks has a 30-day money back guarantee on all purchases made at fantasygrounds.com. We have full control of our own refunds and can run the policy that way. Any purchases made on Steam or through other storefronts we have partnered with are up to those platforms on how they manage refunds. We have no ability to refund anything on Steam, so it is their standard policy that is limited to 2 hours of play IIRC.

[bkyrlach]

Almost everything in FG is customizable. Once you build your character sheet, you will want to review it and adjust if necessary and then start actually using it in combats. Once you start using the finished character in the combat tracker and start adding in some of the more advanced automation features, it will really start to shine for you.

I wanted to correct something Trenloe incorrectly stated above, though. SmiteWorks has a 30-day money back guarantee on all purchases made at fantasygrounds.com. We have full control of our own refunds and can run the policy that way. Any purchases made on Steam or through other storefronts we have partnered with are up to those platforms on how they manage refunds. We have no ability to refund anything on Steam, so it is their standard policy that is limited to 2 hours of play IIRC.

That is unfortunate. After spending a little more time with FG, I don't think I can make it work for my use case. I was about to e-mail support for a refund. Unfortunately, I think I left my game logged in for a bit today while I was reading up on things, so I'm now probably past the two hour refund window.

[Larsenex]

Bkyrlach,

Are you playing Pathfinder 2E? Come join as a spectator and 'npc' in my next session. The 5 people we have connected all know FG fairly well and there is nothing better than getting help with someone in voice and explaining things. Shoot me a PM and I will give you discord and server information. Our next game is this coming Friday evening at 730 PM pacific Daylight time.

[Willot]

Yeah, FG can seem somewhat clunky, but once your in full swing you wont even think about some of this stuff as ya do it.
In a month and a half you will be adding in special effects to your player's characters sheets and they will be triggering extra damage on undead (IFT: type(undead); DMG: 2d6) and all sorts of things.
Your players will say "WOW!" how'd ya do that?" and YOU will say "Do what?, oh nah, that was easy.."

Main problem that this is still a pretty new ruleset and there is still alot to go.
Also Paizo seems to gone out of it way to make life hard for VTT'ers. Every single condition, feat or skill seems to have it own way of doing stuff. Which is GREAT I love it! But from a computer stand point its a bloody nightmare.

I guarantee if you plays were playing 5E you would have a much different experience, Its been around longer and it also gets alot of love (By far the Biggest percentage of users on FG use 5e and thertefore more people creating extensions for the ruleset)

LINK: EXTENSIONS BABY! (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MomWRYjqAsFpHuUPavlgv6u81ruz6Npi)

[bkyrlach]

I totally get and appreciate how hard it must be to code. I just don't think I can manage it in the current state. I need to somehow sell my players on a new system, a tool that, at least at first glance looks less feature rich than our current toolset, and requires a ton of manual intervention on their part (manual intervention they aren't prepared to give yet, as they would be complete neophytes to the system at large).

[Surge]

I've recently been able to get some of my real life friends to play using Fantasy Grounds (due to obvious requirement of a VTT), and I asked them to just make their characters in Hero Lab Online (free for level 1 characters). I then created a 'campaign' in Hero Lab and they joined it with their characters, allowing me to see how they made them (what decisions they made at every step of character creation), and I built all of their characters in Fantasy Grounds ahead of the first session (with the help of another rl friend who was familiar).

Then session 1 started with me showing them around the software - how to navigate their character sheets, and some other high level stuff like the chat, rolling dice, actions, the hot key bar, and combat tracker. Then I shared an image and away we went. Sure it was a little clunky at first as they were completely new to it, but we all sped up over the sessions. We've had about 5 sessions now, and today one of my friends who has never used Fantasy Grounds before decided to try and make a new action in his character sheet, to give himself some new options. I never told them how to do it originally, I just gave them the completed characters. Sure he had to ask me for help, but he kind of knew what he wanted to do and made a start. Now I've shown him, he probably won't need to ask again and will be able to sort out all of his future actions as they level.

[bkyrlach]

I've recently been able to get some of my real life friends to play using Fantasy Grounds (due to obvious requirement of a VTT), and I asked them to just make their characters in Hero Lab Online (free for level 1 characters). I then created a 'campaign' in Hero Lab and they joined it with their characters, allowing me to see how they made them (what decisions they made at every step of character creation), and I built all of their characters in Fantasy Grounds ahead of the first session (with the help of another rl friend who was familiar).

Then session 1 started with me showing them around the software - how to navigate their character sheets, and some other high level stuff like the chat, rolling dice, actions, the hot key bar, and combat tracker. Then I shared an image and away we went. Sure it was a little clunky at first as they were completely new to it, but we all sped up over the sessions. We've had about 5 sessions now, and today one of my friends who has never used Fantasy Grounds before decided to try and make a new action in his character sheet, to give himself some new options. I never told them how to do it originally, I just gave them the completed characters. Sure he had to ask me for help, but he kind of knew what he wanted to do and made a start. Now I've shown him, he probably won't need to ask again and will be able to sort out all of his future actions as they level.

The only option I see for adding actions requires it to be either a weapon attack (which doesn't track proficiency), a spell, or a focus spell. If you know of a way to add something as basic as Hunt Prey, then you're smarter than I am.

[damned]

The only option I see for adding actions requires it to be either a weapon attack (which doesn't track proficiency), a spell, or a focus spell. If you know of a way to add something as basic as Hunt Prey, then you're smarter than I am.

When you say "as basic as Hunt Prey" I wonder if you really mean "as basic"?

You designate a single creature as your prey and focus your attacks against that creature. You must be able to see or hear the prey, or you must be tracking the prey during exploration.

You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your prey and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your prey. You also ignore the penalty for making ranged attacks within your second range increment against the prey you’re hunting.

You can have only one creature designated as your prey at a time. If you use Hunt Prey against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new prey gains the designation. Your designation lasts until your next daily preparations.


So first the system needs to know whom you have applied this to.
Then it needs to know that you get +2 for Perception but only when you Seek
Then it needs to know that you get +2 for Survival but only when you Track
Then it needs to know that there is no range penalty but only for ranges up to two increments

And its tied to concentration.
And its tied to being able to see or hear the target.

That is easy for you and I to understand - our brains are incredibly capable of such things - and completely non trivial to code.
And you have to do that for all the Actions.
Its doable. But it does not fall into "as basic as".

[bkyrlach]

Sorry, I was speaking a little too loosely. As is abundantly clear right now, there are many limits to the automation in place. I just wanted to be able to add something to the characters action tab that would let them know that...

A) Hunt Prey is something they can do, and that it costs them one action.
B) The textual description that we both know is attached to that action, so they can easily understand how it impacts what they want to do next.

In our game today, we use D&DBeyond. It has zero automation around things like this in D&D 5e (obviously Hunt Prey is specific to Pathfinder). However, my players can at least easily look at their D&DBeyond character sheet and understand what sorts of things they can do, and it explains how it impacts whatever dice they might roll next.

So, in short, automating all of that, totally hard (I also write software for a living) :D
But being able to add something to my players character sheet that lets them know this is a thing they can do, and what it does (with zero automation), should be something easy for me.

Again, my biggest issue is that it's half automated, but won't let me edit the things that are wrong. I don't care that it's not calculating my wifes longbow proficiency correctly. But it's both wrong enough to be useless, and completely un-editable. Here's an example I used in a PM with another kind forum user who's trying to help out.

Currently, for my wifes ranger, FG...

Does add her DEX bonus
Doesn't add her proficiency bonus
Does add (subtract?) MAP
Doesn't take into account Hunter's Edge - Flurry

To explain to her what she has to do in order to use the action on her character sheet to actually produce the right number in Fantasy Grounds, if this is her second attack against her hunted prey as a level 2 ranger.

She has to add +2 for TRAINED
She has to add +2 for her level
She has to add +1 to compensate for the incorrectly calculated MAP

Obviously, without FG, she has to do all of the number crunching herself. However, she doesn't have to balance the mental gymnastics of what stuff FG is or isn't doing correctly, and how correctly it is or isn't doing it.

[kaernunnos]

There is a box that you click on the weapon to set both proficiency and stat to use for attack rolls, as well as 3 different boxes to click for each MAP score. You can even make copies of said weapon that one has flurry MAP and one is normal very easily. There are several videos showing how these things can be done for PF2. There is also a wiki full of documentation.

[bkyrlach]

There is a box that you click on the weapon to set both proficiency and stat to use for attack rolls, as well as 3 different boxes to click for each MAP score. You can even make copies of said weapon that one has flurry MAP and one is normal very easily. There are several videos showing how these things can be done for PF2. There is also a wiki full of documentation.

Perhaps I misunderstood an earlier reply in this post (where it was said that players have to manually do that). I feel like I clicked every d*mn part of the UI earlier in an attempt to set the proficiency bonus. If you're saying there's a way, then perhaps I missed a pixel or two. :)

Since Steam refused my refund request (although they did refund my core rulebook), I guess I can experiment tomorrow and see if I can find which pixels to click on. After buying yet another copy of the CRB... :(

[damned]

Perhaps I misunderstood an earlier reply in this post (where it was said that players have to manually do that). I feel like I clicked every d*mn part of the UI earlier in an attempt to set the proficiency bonus. If you're saying there's a way, then perhaps I missed a pixel or two. :)

Since Steam refused my refund request (although they did refund my core rulebook), I guess I can experiment tomorrow and see if I can find which pixels to click on. After buying yet another copy of the CRB... :(

Hi bkyrlach,

Hopefully you bought the second copy from the store here and then you can refund it anytime in the next 30 days if you still cant get to a point you are happy with.

I dont play PF2E so I cant really comment on the specifics but others will if you post specific questions/issues.

I also know that the dev behind this is both pretty good at it, and continuously improving it.

Some of your issues are probably solvable with more familiarity/experience or a nudge in teh right direction, others will be being worked on right now and others will probably still be further down the track.

Keep posting feedback - constructive ideally - and the experience will improve - Im confident of that.

[bkyrlach]

Hi bkyrlach,

Hopefully you bought the second copy from the store here and then you can refund it anytime in the next 30 days if you still cant get to a point you are happy with.

I dont play PF2E so I cant really comment on the specifics but others will if you post specific questions/issues.

I also know that the dev behind this is both pretty good at it, and continuously improving it.

Some of your issues are probably solvable with more familiarity/experience or a nudge in teh right direction, others will be being worked on right now and others will probably still be further down the track.

Keep posting feedback - constructive ideally - and the experience will improve - Im confident of that.

Definitely intended for my feedback to be cordial, and I'm sure I fell short of being constructive. Been a rough day. :(

[kaernunnos]

On mobile so can't give pictures, but on the actions tab click the magnifying glass on the right side of a weapon to modify things. Most things that can be modified are accessed there. I highly recommend the wiki and those videos, as a software dev the wiki should be fairly useful to you, especially the PF2 effects script page.

[bkyrlach]

On mobile so can't give pictures, but on the actions tab click the magnifying glass on the right side of a weapon to modify things. Most things that can be modified are accessed there. I highly recommend the wiki and those videos, as a software dev the wiki should be fairly useful to you, especially the PF2 effects script page.

I'll take a look tomorrow when I'm more awake. Been replying from bed and annoying my wife. Thanks for all the kind replies.

Sincerely,

Ben.

[theMaXX]

The only option I see for adding actions requires it to be either a weapon attack (which doesn't track proficiency), a spell, or a focus spell. If you know of a way to add something as basic as Hunt Prey, then you're smarter than I am.

Seems to me that everything you're trying to achieve, ppl has already done in a way.

I suggest you take a look at (SR) Bestiary and (SR) Drag 'n Drop modules. Both have a lot of automation already set... Hunt prey is only one of it. It has all classes powers and abilities (that can be automated somehow) done.
I has sneak attack damage rolling everytime the enemy is flat-footed, multiattack bonus for hunter's flurry... etc.
Even without those modules, you can search wiki and apply your own custom effects.

I'm not sure, but i think no vtt has the power to select multiple targets of a spell (like fireball), roll all saves and apply the effects (or damage) at once, just like FG.

[Trenloe]

Again, my biggest issue is that it's half automated, but won't let me edit the things that are wrong. I don't care that it's not calculating my wifes longbow proficiency correctly. But it's both wrong enough to be useless, and completely un-editable. Here's an example I used in a PM with another kind forum user who's trying to help out.

Currently, for my wifes ranger, FG...

Does add her DEX bonus
Doesn't add her proficiency bonus
Does add (subtract?) MAP
Doesn't take into account Hunter's Edge - Flurry

To explain to her what she has to do in order to use the action on her character sheet to actually produce the right number in Fantasy Grounds, if this is her second attack against her hunted prey as a level 2 ranger.

She has to add +2 for TRAINED
She has to add +2 for her level
She has to add +1 to compensate for the incorrectly calculated MAP

Obviously, without FG, she has to do all of the number crunching herself. However, she doesn't have to balance the mental gymnastics of what stuff FG is or isn't doing correctly, and how correctly it is or isn't doing it.
This is how you do it:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36180


Click the magnifying glass icon to open the details/edit window
Click on the proficiency button to cycle through untrained, Trained, etc.. Hover over the button to get instructions.
Modify the MAP as required.


Oh, and it's not +2 per level, it's +1 per level. FG will keep you right with that! ;)

When I said that weapon proficiencies will be automated in the future, I was talking about automatically working out what proficiency level to apply when a weapon is added to a PC. I wasn't saying that there isn't a way to apply a proficiency level (and auto calculate the correct proficiency bonus). But you do have to apply that proficiency level by manually clicking the button (#2 in the screenshot above).

I really feel that 90% of the issues you're having are lack of familiarity with FG, and you're not the first one to experience this! You've obviously got to a point of frustration where you say things like "But it's both wrong enough to be useless, and completely un-editable." - whereas the info above shows that this is not the case. Lots of people have replied to this thread to try to help you - even after you said you were asking for a refund. Please don't take this being patronizing, but I think a lot of your frustration and disappointment is coming from not knowing how to do something and then automatically assuming it can't be done. As you've seen, the community is very friendly and willing to help. Maybe a quick post asking "Hey, I can't work out how to edit a weapon and adjust the proficiency and MAP. Any pointers please?" would help to reduce the frustration you're experiencing. Just a friendly recommendation...

There are currently close to 5,000 sessions a month being ran on FG using the PF2 ruleset (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?56183-Fantasy-Grounds-usage-stats-through-2020-03) - and very few complaints that I see. The numbers wouldn't be at this level, and the complaints would be high, if the ruleset and DLC was as bad as you appear to think. Like has been said a few times in this thread, give FG some time. There's a lot to it and a lot to learn. But, if you're wanting to play PF2 games online with your friends, most people find spending time to learn FG and the ruleset time well spent...

[Trenloe]

There's lots of info about adding actions to the PC sheet in this thread: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50802-Pathfinder-2-Drag-and-Drop-Actions-Powers-and-Spells See the "Guide to Spell Tab Use" link in post #1.

The "(SR)Drag_N_Drop.mod" (a FG data module, not a video file - install it in your <FG app data>\modules directory) attached to post #1 gives lots of examples of how to set up powers and abilities. The Ranger Hunt Prey and Hunter's Edge: Flurry abilities are in there.

[bkyrlach]

I didn't see that magnifying glass. That was really helpful. I can look into that addon at some point.

[bkyrlach]

So, I've made a little progress. I ran a sample combat last night. Here are two things that came up last night.

1) How can I track status effects on monsters and player characters?
2) I randomly added an Ettin to the encounter last night. According to the PF2E Bestiary, it should have had two entries in the initiative tracker, one for each head. I'm sure this is an issue where the automation isn't quite there yet, but how would I go about managing that scenario?
3) Where would you track things like alchemical formulas and snare schematics?

[Trenloe]

1) How can I track status effects on monsters and player characters?
2) I randomly added an Ettin to the encounter last night. According to the PF2E Bestiary, it should have had two entries in the initiative tracker, one for each head. I'm sure this is an issue where the automation isn't quite there yet, but how would I go about managing that scenario?
3) Where would you track things like alchemical formulas and snare schematics?
1) Use effects in the CT. Information here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/372244481/PFRPG2+Effects You can add effects to an action/ability/spell on the PC or NPC actions/spells tab via the right-click menu -> add action -> add effect. Also, if a condition, you can drag/click the effect button in the left side of the Effects window (click on the Elvis icon in the top right of the desktop to open the global effects window.
2) I doubt anything this niche will ever be automated. Just add a dummy entry into the CT (via the right-click menu) for the second init slot.
3) Track them either in the inventory, or setup a "spell" class and add them to there. I do have plans for better tracking of formulas but that won't be out for a while.

[MaxAstro]

One of the things that was most helpful to me in learning to take full advantage of the program is realizing that "spell classes" are kind of poorly named (I see this confusion come up a lot, Trenloe; is it worth changing?). Think of them instead as "action packages". Each "spell class" contains a group of actions, which don't have to be spells.

If a character has an at-will ability, that is a "cantrip". If a character has an ability that can be used 3 times per day, give it to them as a 1st-level spell, prepared 3 times. Since in 2e DCs are not affected by spell level, what "level" you assign it to doesn't actually matter. The system will let you make the default DC for a spell class based on anything (click the magnifying glass), so for a Barbarian you can give them a class that has DCs based on Strength and put all of their abilities that use their class DC into that "spell class".

For alchemist formula, by far the best way I have found is to treat it exactly like Wizard spells, except all of their spells are "level 1". Make it a prepared spell class (you can click the book/star symbol to switch between prepared and spontaneous), add all of the formula they know, and then prepare the ones they make at the start of the day. Have a separate ability - maybe in level 2 "spells" - for Quick Alchemy with the correct number of daily uses there.

Alternatively, you could create a separate spontaneous "spell class" for quick alchemy and mark abilities as "cast" when the items are created.

Having been myself in the position of having a bunch of players who were very leery about switching to Fantasy Grounds, I will agree with another poster here and say what worked best for me was to do everything I could for my players - create their characters, get their actions set up in advance, etc - and then slowly introduce them to customizing things themselves as they become comfortable with it.

[bkyrlach]

Maybe this is where that addon helps, but just creating a spell casting class in the actions tab doesn't let me drag formulae and other various things over. I guess I could manually create entries for things...

[MagiusAlpha]

To get that to work, you need to Target the creature that you're going to apply the effect to before casting the spell. If it's an AoE spell, just target everything it would affect, click on the Save or Attack button (the d20) and the system will automatically untarget everything that wouldn't be affected, then click the icon next to the spell effect to actually apply it to the remaining targets. There are still a few things that aren't fully automated yet (like Magic Weapon), but the program does handle a lot of the heavy lifting for you overall.

[MaxAstro]

Maybe this is where that addon helps, but just creating a spell casting class in the actions tab doesn't let me drag formulae and other various things over. I guess I could manually create entries for things...

This is definitely where ShadeRaven's work shines, yeah. He created "spell" entries for all those things so that you can drag n drop them over (hence the name of the module). Otherwise, you do have to manually create entries. But with him having already done the work for free, why do it over? :)

[rhammer2]

You really should look into taking some classes at the Fantasy Grounds College, https://fantasygroundscollege.net/

They offer classes and online videos to run FG, they primarily show case D&D5E, but do have GMs of many different systems.

- Robert

[bkyrlach]

It just still feels like so much is not implemented right now. Worse yet, there's almost never a good manual option for doing what I need to do when I can't figure out (or Fantasy Grounds can't do) what I need to do.

Case in point, I ran a sample combat for my group to prepare for tonight's session. Several cases came up where even basic spells weren't automated. I'd love to have a way to just say "I'm rolling some damage die here", or "I'm rolling a healing die here". So, I realize that "heal" is probably one of the more complicated spells to provide automation for, but it feels almost useless in its current state.

1) It's not properly applying any of the Cleric's feats.
2) There doesn't appear to be a button to use the damage version of the spell.

Using the wiki, I am able to set up some effects, and when it works, the automation is actually pretty neat. I don't know how to handle the fact that you never know what's going to work and what isn't, and without an ability to just tag a roll as a damage roll or an attack roll, when the automation fails, it reverts to a _really_ manual process.

The other thing I couldn't find last night is how to cast spells from monsters. I ended up pitting the party against a pack of Barghest'. Halfway through the fight, I realized they could be casting spells like "Confusion". While spells for PCs at least seem to partially work, I couldn't find any way to cast these spells from the monster?

[kaernunnos]

My understanding is the FG engine trys to create the spell effects by parsing the text when it is added to the sheet, and doesn't always get it right. There is the SR community module you can grab though, it adds characters you can import with all the spells individually entered on their sheets you can drag over to your character's sheets. Ive not messed with npc casting so not much help there, but there are still aspects of the PF2 rules being worked on, adding more automation, so that could be fixed soon, I dunno.

[bkyrlach]

Yeah, I totally get that. And honestly, NLP is a really hard problem, so I get why it doesn't get every spell right. Like I said, I wish I just had a button I could click before I did a manual roll that let me say "this is damage" or "this is healing" or "this is an attack roll". Right now, it's like every other action (or like every one out of three actions) works perfectly, and then the next thing a player tries grinds us back to a halt as we realize the spell didn't do the right thing, and we need to manually fix a bunch of numbers.

[Trenloe]

Like I've said before you need to look at any actions, spells, etc. and verify that the actions you want to do are setup correctly. As mentioned by @kaernunnos above (and me before), the data is not hard coded to have everything there - the ruleset makes an effort to get somewhere close, but you (or the players) need to verify that the actions on your character sheet are setup correctly. If not, you can edit them or create them. All of the things you mention (damage, heal, attack) can all be done via actions in a spell (or use a "spell" for an ability or feat).

If there isn't a little "A" next to a feat in the campaign data list then there isn't any automation when a feat is applied. There's only a handful of feats that have automation. So, make an assumption - there's no automation with a feat, after I add it I need to go and setup any actions or abilities if I want/need them.

The ruleset framework is there, you need to work with it and not expect everything to have automation attached to it - because it doesn't. Fantasy Grounds is a VTT that allows you to play online RPGs with your friends. It is a framework, with publisher data provided for quick access. How you use that framework is up to you.

And, monster spells work the same as PCs - on the spells tab of the NPC record. You need to unlock the record to get similar editing to a PC.


I don't know how to handle the fact that you never know what's going to work and what isn't, and without an ability to just tag a roll as a damage roll or an attack roll, when the automation fails, it reverts to a _really_ manual process.
I'm confused by this statement. Damage, attack, save, heal actions aren't hidden behind the scenes. If they are there on a PC sheet or an a NPC sheet, click the magnifying glass to see what is setup and then you'll know what will happen when you click the button.

90% of the comments you've made on this thread are saying "The ruleset doesn't do this", when it actually does. This comes down to lack of knowledge of the system. It's been recommended by others that you should look into Fantasy Grounds College, and I'll add to that recommendation.

[theMaXX]

Repeating myself... but using (SR) Bestiary and (SR)Drag and drop works.

[bkyrlach]

Like I've said before you need to look at any actions, spells, etc. and verify that the actions you want to do are setup correctly. As mentioned by @kaernunnos above (and me before), the data is not hard coded to have everything there - the ruleset makes an effort to get somewhere close, but you (or the players) need to verify that the actions on your character sheet are setup correctly. If not, you can edit them or create them. All of the things you mention (damage, heal, attack) can all be done via actions in a spell (or use a "spell" for an ability or feat).

It's far from obvious how to accomplish that, even after pouring through the wiki multiple times and playing around with the UI. I attempted to make a copy of the heal spell to add in the ability to also cast it as a damage spell against undead, and so far the way to do that has completely eluded me.


If there isn't a little "A" next to a feat in the campaign data list then there isn't any automation when a feat is applied. There's only a handful of feats that have automation. So, make an assumption - there's no automation with a feat, after I add it I need to go and setup any actions or abilities if I want/need them

Sure, and this is where it would be nice instead of having to dig down into the guts of the spell system (which, as I stated above, are still eluding me), it would be nice if my players could use use `/die [formula] HEAL` or somesuch to just roll the right thing for their spell. I'm not even sure where to begin to set up the three different actions that heal can perform, modified appropriately for all of the feats my cleric has taken, that will also take into account heightening. Particularly for heal, when used as a three action cast, and will damage any undead/fiends in the area (due, again, to a feat my cleric took) and heal all the allies in the area.


The ruleset framework is there, you need to work with it and not expect everything to have automation attached to it - because it doesn't. Fantasy Grounds is a VTT that allows you to play online RPGs with your friends. It is a framework, with publisher data provided for quick access. How you use that framework is up to you.

And, monster spells work the same as PCs - on the spells tab of the NPC record. You need to unlock the record to get similar editing to a PC.

I'm not talking about editing a spell. I just expected the combat tracker to let me cast a monster spell from it. The bestiary entry lists the spells, but there doesn't appear to be a UI that lets me cast the spell from the monster. Googling leads me to suggestions of setting up a dummy PC and adding the spells the monsters have to that dummy PC and casting from there.


I'm confused by this statement. Damage, attack, save, heal actions aren't hidden behind the scenes. If they are there on a PC sheet or an a NPC sheet, click the magnifying glass to see what is setup and then you'll know what will happen when you click the button.

I don't think it's at all obvious, but yes, now that I'm using the UI more, I see where you can get some of this information at least.


90% of the comments you've made on this thread are saying "The ruleset doesn't do this", when it actually does. This comes down to lack of knowledge of the system. It's been recommended by others that you should look into Fantasy Grounds College, and I'll add to that recommendation.

I don't think that's entirely fair at all. Several things I've said it doesn't do, you have agreed, it doesn't do. Some other things are supported with, what at least feels like, extreme amounts of effort on my part. I did finally set up an effect to mimic rage, and another to mimic `Inspire Courage`. When it works, there are things I like about Fantasy Grounds. So far though, it feels like a lot of pain at every step. :(

[theMaXX]

Repeating myself... but using (SR) Bestiary and (SR)Drag and drop works.

one more time

[bkyrlach]

one more time

This feels a little unnecessarily antagonistic. I'm not trying to ignore your advice. If you think some addons are going to magically fix things, I'll give them a try.

[theMaXX]

This feels a little unnecessarily antagonistic. I'm not trying to ignore your advice. If you think some addons are going to magically fix things, I'll give them a try.

Of course not, but will solve your "trying to set an effect to mimic rage, another to mimic Inspire Courage" problem. It's all solved by the community in the best way possible and you're just trying to re-discover the wheel. (SR) Bestiary, I.E is better than the actual official Bestiary regarding automation. Also, you will learn what you CAN and what you CAN'T automate based on it's examples.
Last thing, if your PC's need something specific, you can just EDIT the values.

[Trenloe]

I know that you're frustrated. But I'm frustrated also - your posts seem more like venting than actually asking for help - you throw around "useless" and other negative terms, and generalize at a very high level. When looking from the outside it seems that a lot of your issues are because you don't know how to do things, or have an unrealistic expectation (again, due to lack of knowledge of the system). And it gets even more frustrating when you post the same type of stuff, despite many people giving you recommendations and pointing you to examples of how to do things. I don't want to put words in @theMaXX's mouth, but I'm guessing that's where some of their frustration comes from too.

I made a suggestion before, and I'll say it again - if you're asking for help, please be very specific with what you're looking for. Ask "how do I" (and be specific) so that people can be specific in their help back. Your post earlier today came across more as a vent/rant than an actual request for help. OK, there were a couple of items in there, but you were so general that it meant neither I, nor theMaXX, could you give specific help - hence we just essentially repeated what has been said before.

Now that you've detailed a good example, your issues with heal, we can hopefully point you in the right direction. Thanks for that! :)

Unfortunately, I don't have time right now. But I'd recommend you look at how ShadeRaven implemented heal in his module. Also, a tip, you do realise you can have multiple action button attached to each spell? You don't have to try to make everything possible happen with one button. I'm guessing this might be part of your issue?

Re NPC spells. It would be impossible to put everything that an NPC can do within the combat tracker itself. Click the link button to the right of the NPC line in the combat tracker to open the NPC record sheet - then go to the Spells tab to access the spell info and actions. This is what I meant when I said "monster spells work the same as PCs - on the spells tab of the NPC record"

Hope those couple of pointers help you move forwards.

Please come back with any questions. And, please, be very specific about what you're asking and try to phrase your questions along the lines of "How do I?". Thanks!

[Trenloe]

Sorry if my posts today have come across as patronising or overly blunt. We want to help you, we really want to help you. And we know that the vast majority of what you want to do can be done - but you have to learn how to do it, it won't magically do it for you. That's where our frustration comes from - many people have given you great advice in this thread, but 5 pages in and we don't see a large amount of that advice being taken. Sorry if you have taken the advice on board (you mention using the Wiki effects, which is great), but it doesn't look like you've looked in any depth at the ShadeRaven module - which is one of the main things that will help you see what's possible with effects and actions (sorry to beat on about this). Ultimately, you're an adult and can do what you want. But any help will soon dry up if people are seeing the conversation being pretty much one way. This of course, assumes you've come to the forums asking for the community to try to help you. Which I assume you have, otherwise I wouldn't be spending my free time trying to help. :)

[MaxAstro]

If it helps, let me walk you through step-by-step how the Divine Font Heal spell would be set up if you wanted to do it from scratch, without any modules or extension.


Go to the Actions page of the character sheet.
Click the brown circle-with-a-slash in the lower right.
Click the blue star to create a new spell class.
Name the spell class something like "Special Abilities" or just "Divine Font"
Click the book symbol next to the name to turn it into a star - this switches from prepared caster to spontaneous caster. Clerics are prepared casters in general, of course, but for abilities that are a set number of uses per day like Divine Font, setting it to spontaneous will make it easier to track daily uses.
Click the grey box below "Ability" until it says Wis, since Clerics use Wisdom for the save DC of their abilities.
Click the grey box below "Proficiency" until it matches the proficiency of the Cleric's spellcasting.
Click the grey box below "Tradition" until it says "Divine"
In the list of spells per day (C 1 2 3...), leave most of them at 0 but click on the box for 1st level spells and type the number of uses per day of Divine Font the cleric has. Divine Font won't always be 1st level of course, but since spell level doesn't affect save DC in 2e it doesn't actually matter what level you use.
Optional - set the caster level (CL) in the upper right to the cleric's level.
In the new "level 1" grey bar that has appeared, click the green + button to add a new spell.
Name the spell "Divine Font Heal" or something like that.


Now you need to figure out the spell actions you need. Heal has several things it can do to a target: It can heal for Xd8 damage, it can heal for Xd8+8X damage, or it can damage for Xd8 damage with a basic Will save. Since targeting (other than target self) isn't handled in spell actions, we don't need to worry about how many targets are needed, so we'll just create each of those actions.


Right click on the spell, click "add spell action", and then click "add heal"
Click the magnifying glass next to the new spell action.
Drag a d8 from your dice into the "heal" window.
There are two ways you can do this. You can either drag additional d8s until you have the right number, or if you set the caster level above you can click on the grey box below "dice multiplier" until it says "odd CLs". This will give the action one die for each odd caster level (1, 3, 5, 7, etc) the spell class has. Since odd levels are the levels at which Heal heightens, that's perfect.
Close the "heal" window.
Right click on the spell again and add another heal action. Give it the same d8 dice, but this time in the grey box right after the + symbol (fourth grey box, starting from the left) type in the amount of extra healing that the 2-action version of heal grants. If you did the caster level, then instead type 8 and set the next box also to "odd CLs", since that will again make the math work out.


Now, for the damage action, this is actually two actions - first a saving throw (which is called a "cast" action), and then damage. So:


Right click on the spell, "add spell action", and then "add cast".
Click the magnifying glass next to the new action.
Under "Save", click the left grey box until it says "Will". The other box says "Spell DC" which is correct - Heal uses the cleric's own spell DC for the save.
Click the "damage" box under "On Save" so that it says "half on success". This sets the save to be a basic save.
Close the "cast" window.
Right click -> add spell action -> add damage.
Create the damage exactly the same way you did for the first heal action. This time, however, you also need to type in a damage type underneath the dice. Type "positive", without quotes, there.


And that's it, you are all set up. Click the brown circle-with-a-slash again to get out of edit mode, click the magnifying glass next to the spell itself to hide the spell actions, and then at the bottom of the actions page click the grey box that says "summary" to change it to "actions" so you can see shortcuts to the actions you created.

To actually use the spell, here are some examples:

One action heal: Drag the Xd8 heal action on to the character (either token or combat tracker entry) that is being healed.
Two action heal: Drag the Xd8+X heal action on to the character that is being healed.
Three action heal: Set the targets for the person casting the spell so that they are targeting everyone being healed. Click (not drag) the Xd8 heal action to heal them all.
Damaging a single undead creature: Drag the "cast" action on to the creature (either token or combat tracker entry). Then, once the save has been rolled, drag the damage action on to the same creature; it will automatically adjust the damage based on the save.
Damaging a group of undead creatures: Set the targets for the person casting the spell so that they are targeting every creature being damaged. Click (not drag) the "cast" action, wait for the rolls, and then click the damage action. The damage will be applied correctly to each target.


If the caster is doing a three-action heal that is both healing allies AND damaging undead, you have to resolve the healing and the damage as separate steps (the "negative healing" ability doesn't have automation yet). First target allies and click the Xd8 heal action. Then clear targets, target enemies, click the cast action, and then click the damage action.

And of course, each time the cleric casts heal, you or they click one of the bubbles that indicates uses per day to mark it off.

Heal is one of the more complicated spells to set up but is totally possible to automate, as you see above. Working through this should hopefully give you a good handle on automating other spells.

[Duke of Shao]

This tutorial was super helpful MaxAstro for setting up my dwarf cleric. I created a "Divine Font" spellcasting class and dragged Heal into the 1st level slot, set to spontaneous (agreed, seems an easier way to track these bonus spell slots!), added in the additional abilities based on the number of actions used to cast, etc. Now, my question is, how do I get this new "spellcasting class" to stay visible when I switch to "Combat" view? Because right now, from Standard and Preparation its fine, but when I switch to Combat, my Divine Font class disappears. Do I need to select something, or is it because its a "custom" class?

Many thanks!
Charles

[MaxAstro]

A spellcasting class will typically disappear from Combat view if none of the spells associated with it have any uses per day left. Try doing a Rest from the right click menu and see if it comes back. If not, double check that you have a non-zero number of castings per day for that spell level.

[Duke of Shao]

Will do. I just created the character so I doubt rest is an issue, and I have the two bonus "slots" (castings) for Heal I set up when in Preparation view. But, yeah, I must be missing something. I'll check and report back. Many thanks.

[Duke of Shao]

I think everything checks out. Here are two screen shots that show what I'm talking about.
36770
36771

[Trenloe]

I think everything checks out.
I'm unclear - are you saying the issue is still there, or that you're OK now?

[MagiusAlpha]

I see the problem. When using spontaneous casting, you don't need to mark the spells as prepared. Instead, when you click on the circle, you indicate that you've already cast the spell, which is why it doesn't show up when you switch over to combat mode. Just unclick the circles and you'll be good to go.

[Trenloe]

The circles have three possible graphics indicating the available/used state of the spell:

Greyed out, means that they haven't been prepared, this won't show for a spontaneous spell class.
Dark, but not checked/ticket - this means they've been prepared (if relevant) and are available to use.
Checked/ticked - this means they've been used.


Only available spells, spells with at least one circle in the available state (the middle bullet above), will show when in Combat mode.

[Duke of Shao]

LOL @Trenloe and @MagiusAlpha Of course, that totally makes sense!!! Weeellll, I feel like a noob! Many thanks everyone!