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MadBeardMan
May 1st, 2020, 17:04
Folks,

I've been mulling over this a while and since doing recent work expanding the Worlds data the issue around Trade has been opened up by BackwardOracle and Esmdev.

Esmdev has got his own system working, a hybrid as he puts it and I suspect most of us have our own systems and rarely touch the official rules.

So I've read and re-read the MGT2 chapter on Trade and have some ideas, but what I'd like to do is to build up a system that works well enough (based on MGT2) that we can all use it, and use it easily.

There's a TAB been added to the Worlds data sheet, when you select it, what would you like to see, atm it's an empty sheet as shown here:

34734

My current thinking. Passenger Traffic has a lot of variables for example you want luxury passengers and you've got a junky looking Free Trader modified to have more staterooms, not going to get many people is it.

Therefore I think Freight is something easier at the moment, all of the rolls the DM's can be pulled from the world data, the only unknown is the effect of the Broker check.

On going to the tab for a world how about there's a field where the Effect of the Broker/Streetwise can be entered, and then a button 'Generate Freight'. That makes the 3 rolls (major, minor, incidental) and populates the list below. Purchase/Sell prices need to be generated, for the moment just use the normal random variance listed on pages 212/213.

Allow the referee to add/remove/edit the various prices.

Thoughts please, and I'll get to work on it.
Cheers,
MBM

alfarobl
May 1st, 2020, 19:51
I would like to link the fact of Tech Level and Starport class somehow... for example a Planet like Borite with TL4 and Starport Class E is not going to allow for much traffic. Each planet could have some details but if you do random tables... on that example with Borite they won't be usually trading with Biochemicals or Advanced Weapons for example.

I could not see the TAB added that you said above... I think the image is missing?

MadBeardMan
May 1st, 2020, 20:15
I would like to link the fact of Tech Level and Starport class somehow... for example a Planet like Borite with TL4 and Starport Class E is not going to allow for much traffic. Each planet could have some details but if you do random tables... on that example with Borite they won't be usually trading with Biochemicals or Advanced Weapons for example.

I could not see the TAB added that you said above... I think the image is missing?

The graphic is there now, I forgot to add it as been tinkering with it.

The world type denotes what materials are available, and Tech Level doesn't make much difference, a backward planet like Mithril could have massive reserves of minerals.

The world data sheet has an extras on it, if you want to go into detail about why it's not a commonly visited planet. For example, TL4 was Starport B (Downport) but planet stripped of valuable resources, everyone left, everything is in ruins and people don't visit, so now it's classed as an E.

Cheers,
MBM

backwardoracle
May 2nd, 2020, 00:05
Freight is the easiest to generate (less variables) so start with that, however the problem with freight you'd also need a destination which will impact the choices available.

As freight is a flat fee per parsec is a broker score necessary? if someone is willing to pay over the standard they will negotiate rather than rely on a basic roll.

MadBeardMan
May 2nd, 2020, 00:59
Freight is the easiest to generate (less variables) so start with that, however the problem with freight you'd also need a destination which will impact the choices available.

As freight is a flat fee per parsec is a broker score necessary? if someone is willing to pay over the standard they will negotiate rather than rely on a basic roll.

Hi Chap,

Page 208 lists the DM's for the freight lots.

With entry of the Broker/Streetwise we could roll the list of lots available. As you say, these lots are assumed to have a destination as the Cargo is paid for upon arrival. The destination is upto the Referee.

So for the 1st go at Trade let's do Freight.

On the Trade Tab
Enter the broker/streetwise DM
Click to Roll for Major freight
Click to Roll for Minor freight
Click to Roll for Incidental freight

This gives us the number of lots of each type (for example):

Major, I rolled 3 taking the DM's into account, then I rolled 4 for the total number of lots, so we have 4 x (1D x 10) tons of freight.
We now show 4 lots under the Major lots section, each with 1D x 10, so for example

Major Lot #1 - 30 tons
Major Lot #2 - 30 tons
Major Lot #1 - 50 tons
Major Lot #4 - 10 tons

Minor, I rolled 5 taking into account the DMs. I then rolled 11 with the 2D. So for Minor we have 11 x (1D x 5) tons of freight.
Now under the Major we show the Minor:
Minor Lot #1 - 20 tons
Minor Lot #2 - 15 tons
Minor Lot #3 - 5 tons
...
Minor Lot #11 - 25 tons

Incidental, I rolled 10 giving me 4D of lots, a poor roll with just 7 coming from it. That's 7 lots of 1D tons of freight.
Lastly under the Major then Minor we list the Incidental
Incidental Lot #1 - 1 ton
Incidental Lot #2 - 5 tons
...
Incidental Lot #7 - 2 tons

The price the Travellers will get is based on the Parsecs which is based on the destination. Nothing to do at the moment, unless we think a parsecs number should be entered and then the Freight costs can be calculated.

Get this right, we can look at speculative trading next.

Cheers,
MBM



Now we have the number of lots for each type

esmdev
May 2nd, 2020, 00:59
Broker or streetwise are used to determine how much freight is available but do not factor into how much money is made. The only factor is how much and how far potentially modified by you took to long.

backwardoracle
May 2nd, 2020, 15:09
I do find it interesting that on page 210 of the core rulebook it does refer to the 1E book Merchant Princes.

esmdev
May 2nd, 2020, 15:21
I do find it interesting that on page 210 of the core rulebook it does refer to the 1E book Merchant Princes.

I always assumed that they intended to update Merchant Princes to 2E and never got around to it. I suppose it is possible they were pointing at 1E. Many 1E systems are mostly system independent, minor tweaking to skills and you are generally good to go so maybe that's why they never bothered.

MadBeardMan
May 2nd, 2020, 15:41
Having spoken with Matt on many occasions, one of my comments to him has always been 'what can I convert for 1E as I feel a lot of it is still very useful to 2E players' and I get the stock answer "Nothing it's all going to be updated".

The truth of the matter is that the time (layout, new art, rules updates, etc) it takes to update something that needs nothing more than tweaking is very costly, and if the 1E book works so well, there's less 'need' to do it, because sales would probably be low.

I've got Book 7, Merchant Prince, it's a very hard read and it's pehaps one of the reasons I've steered clear of heavy merchant interest (beyond Freight/Passengers) in my games. We work far too much with spreadsheets at work, I don't want to do it in my hobby time!

So what do you folks think to the proposed ideas for Trade in v1.1.1.?

Cheers,
MBM

esmdev
May 2nd, 2020, 15:43
When I did freight I decided it was cleaner to group the freight into bundles of similar tons than a giant distributed individual list. So I passed it all through a loop and counted how much of what ton was available by size. Then I just listed 5 x 60 tons, 3 x 50 tons, etc... If I had made one further leap of logic with that I'd probably have eliminated output for the three types of freight and just listed by # x tons. Major, minor and incidental matter to generation but have no actual purpose after that.

esmdev
May 2nd, 2020, 15:49
Having spoken with Matt on many occasions, one of my comments to him has always been 'what can I convert for 1E as I feel a lot of it is still very useful to 2E players' and I get the stock answer "Nothing it's all going to be updated".

The truth of the matter is that the time (layout, new art, rules updates, etc) it takes to update something that needs nothing more than tweaking is very costly, and if the 1E book works so well, there's less 'need' to do it, because sales would probably be low.

I've got Book 7, Merchant Prince, it's a very hard read and it's pehaps one of the reasons I've steered clear of heavy merchant interest (beyond Freight/Passengers) in my games. We work far too much with spreadsheets at work, I don't want to do it in my hobby time!

So what do you folks think to the proposed ideas for Trade in v1.1.1.?

Cheers,
MBM

You keep posting when I am posting. hehe

Okay, as far as Merchant Princes is concerned, it was overly complicated and unnecessarily so. I also recall thinking that it wasn't written very well or clearly.

As far as 1.1.1, I think if you could get freight in that would be great. If you could get passengers and mail that would be even better.

The chart for distance is enough to determine how much gets paid for whatever trip, that doesn't really need to be automated (imho, others may disagree).

MadBeardMan
May 2nd, 2020, 16:25
When I did freight I decided it was cleaner to group the freight into bundles of similar tons than a giant distributed individual list. So I passed it all through a loop and counted how much of what ton was available by size. Then I just listed 5 x 60 tons, 3 x 50 tons, etc... If I had made one further leap of logic with that I'd probably have eliminated output for the three types of freight and just listed by # x tons. Major, minor and incidental matter to generation but have no actual purpose after that.

It's true that once the lists are generated the actual listing of what they are, Major, Minor etc is moot.

The rule in place is that you must be able to take the full lot (so you can't split).

I think what would then be cool, is to drag that onto the PC's ship, or on the Party Sheet under a 'Cargo' tab, something like that.

Cheers,
MBM

esmdev
May 2nd, 2020, 16:47
It's true that once the lists are generated the actual listing of what they are, Major, Minor etc is moot.

The rule in place is that you must be able to take the full lot (so you can't split).

I think what would then be cool, is to drag that onto the PC's ship, or on the Party Sheet under a 'Cargo' tab, something like that.

Cheers,
MBM

Yeah, that's why I group the bundles by ton like: 5 x 60 tons, 10 x 50 tons, 2 x 40 tons, 3 x 30 tons, 7 x 25 tons, etc...

Drag and drop would be cool... could probably just drop the tons, passengers, mail into a parcel like window for the results and then they can take what they take based on the capacity of the ship.

MadBeardMan
May 2nd, 2020, 16:58
This is what I want to automate in the long run.

Say on Marduk you pick up some 30 tons of ore, it's destination is 2 parsecs away and you have 2 weeks, that's Cr1600 per ton = Cr48000. However you also pick up 10 tons of basic machinery destined for 3 parsecs away and due in 4 weeks, that's Cr3000 x 10 = Cr30000. You've got a Free Trader so that fits easily into your Cargo Hold.

When you arrive at your 2 parsec destination, you then get paid for the ore, and pick up more basic machinery (49 tons) for a 1 parsec destination, so that's Cr49000.

It's the swapping and updating, be nice to know when it's due etc

All my current thinking in my head this!

Cheers,
MBM

esmdev
May 2nd, 2020, 17:06
Freight doesn't usually have an associated type of item. It would be a cool extra, but generally you just get a box here that is going from here to there.

Speculative Trade is very different in that you buy it wherever you are and sell it wherever you want. Speculative Trade does have specific item types.

MadBeardMan
May 2nd, 2020, 17:08
Yea it's just an example that you have 40 tons of this going there by that time, earning that much. Cos if you're over a week late it's reduced.

backwardoracle
May 2nd, 2020, 17:10
yep, sounds good, possibly passengers would work the same way as is a fixed income per parsec in 4 categories. going to save a lot of extra paperwork, NPC Passenger module in the making, just to spice up that time in Jump and interupt PC's.

esmdev
May 2nd, 2020, 17:12
Yea it's just an example that you have 40 tons of this going there by that time, earning that much. Cos if you're over a week late it's reduced.

I think it would be cool to have named freight for the rare Traveller that absolutely need to know what they are carrying on their ship. (I have one of those in my game... hehe)