The New User Experience

[SneakyPete]

So I've been learning Fantasy Grounds for the last week and I am impressed by it capabilities and features. I can't think of any serious features that it is missing.

However I get past, can't get past how shocking bad the new user experience is.

The forums and in game UI straight out the early 2000s and learning how to use FG reminded me more of learning a CRM database then a game system.

The installer is straight up intimidating for people used to modern software. Of the 5 players I'm running for, 3 gave up half way through installing the demo. I have to walk through with each of them individually with a screen sharing tool to get it up and running.

In a world where my 70 year old parents can setup and running a zoom meeting with no support, it's not really good enough for a commercial retail product to be this difficult.


Fantasy could be a world beater but it scares off casual users, I hope some some of the development resources are being focused on making fixing some of these issues.

[Valyar]

The installer is straight up intimidating for people used to modern software. Of the 5 players I'm running for, 3 gave up half way through installing the demo. I have to walk through with each of them individually with a screen sharing tool to get it up and running.
Really? Sorry but I fail to see how click next-next is intimidating... If having a choice where to install is intimidating, I am not sure what to think for the future of the "modern" software. :D

[Trenloe]

There does seem to be a small number of people who can't get the software installed.

There are steps that have to be done successfully in order to run FG properly, which are documented here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/819212/Installing+Fantasy+Grounds+Unity

It's usually the settings after the base install that seem to challenge people - entering their license key, logging in with their FG account and password, and running an update.

I know there's a new installer being tested, I don't know if this changes the process or not.

[Mytherus]

Port forwarding is the only difficult thing i can understand as a new user setting up fg for the first time. Port forwarding annoyed me when i set it up but in hindsight it wasn't that bad.

Leaving out port forwarding woes i dont see how its difficult to set up at all. Also I've dm'd for many people in the last two years of using fg I've never had anyone struggle beyond a 30 min port forwarding glitch in setting it up....and that was one person.

[JohnD]

In 2020 someone who can't cope with a standard Windows based install may also have trouble with concepts such as double click, right click and drag/drop. In other words, general computer usage.

Does the OP have any suggestions on how to make "click Next" less challenging?

About the only thing I can think of is one question before the install starts and that is "Is this your first time installing FG?" or something like that. If 'yes' then the installer provides step by step instructions somehow. Not sure if something like this is even possible.

[LordEntrails]

Perhaps the first question is "Default or Advanced Installation"? Then if you chose default it just asks for your license key, username and password and installs everything else default. If you chose Advanced then you get the options.

[Eadorin]

I agree that the first steps after install should be: "Enter a license key if you have one, if not, hit next" , entering account information, followed by the system running an update. The part about creating a fantasygrounds.com account should be API'd through the app as well, if that's necessary (I assume it is, I've always had my players do it, but I don't actually know?).

I think what might also be a neat addition would be if the app registered a custom protocol + handler, so you could send friends a link they could click to join your game.

OPs post reminds me of myself when I first started in UX -- I had an idea of what a modern system *should* look like and went from there. After actually relaunching FGU and looking it over, the only thing that feels out of place is the lack of a `File` menu. For some reason the general interface does *feel* dated (? idk why, don't super care either lol), but the only thing really lacking there is a hotkey to pan around images/maps (and the lack of a File/Edit menu; right-clicking to exit is ...neat but is silly and confusing)

[LordEntrails]

I think what might also be a neat addition would be if the app registered a custom protocol + handler, so you could send friends a link they could click to join your game.
Nice idea, you should add it to the wish list!

[damned]

The install does have multiple steps that a straight program install doesnt.
This is mostly because there are different versions of the application - Demo/Standard/Ultimate and then there is the DLC and the DLC approval can come from 2 different sources - Store and Steam.
This does make the install multi step/stage.

[Trenloe]

According to this update the process of entering details during the initial install was updated to walk through the entry settings: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?54466-FGU-Early-Access-Updates&p=500445&viewfull=1#post500445 This is for new installs from April 23rd.

[Black Hammer]

right-clicking to exit is ...neat but is silly and confusing)

And of course, none of us experienced hands ever do that by accident. Or clear the combat tracker by accident.

[Kelrugem]

And of course, none of us experienced hands ever do that by accident.

Yeah, that is indeed very hidden, and was one of two things I didn't find out immediately (the other thing was that I have to drag&drop the dice onto my weapon damage dice windo to add them there :D); I always searched in the menu (the automatic window which pop-ups on start) or in the options for an exit button :) (and so I always closed via the task manager or by right-clicking on the FG icon at the taskbar at the beginning) Adding such a button somewhere visible would be nice :)

[SneakyPete]

In 2020 someone who can't cope with a standard Windows based install may also have trouble with concepts such as double click, right click and drag/drop. In other words, general computer usage.

Does the OP have any suggestions on how to make "click Next" less challenging?

About the only thing I can think of is one question before the install starts and that is "Is this your first time installing FG?" or something like that. If 'yes' then the installer provides step by step instructions somehow. Not sure if something like this is even possible.
I think you are underestimating your own technical skill.

As a test get someone who has a background in DnD but never used a VTT. They should be ok with computer s, but not great ( Can print a word document, but has never installed custom mods for a game.)

Give them a link to the fantasy Grounds website, and tell them to install it. Then create a LVL 5 cleric.

Next just watch them, DO NOT help them in any way. No prompts, no "just right click over here", nothing. It might be even better to leave the room.

I think you will be surprised at how much trouble they have.

[LordEntrails]

I think you are underestimating your own technical skill.

As a test get someone who has a background in DnD but never used a VTT. They should be ok with computer s, but not great ( Can print a word document, but has never installed custom mods for a game.)

Give them a link to the fantasy Grounds website, and tell them to install it. Then create a LVL 5 cleric.

Next just watch them, DO NOT help them in any way. No prompts, no "just right click over here", nothing. It might be even better to leave the room.

I think you will be surprised at how much trouble they have.
Some of them will, others won't. Take my older brother, lots of D&D. I do all his computer support, he calls me when he wants to hook up his USB web cam. I sent him a link to the FG Website. He installed without asking me anything (I was surprised given the web camera experience). I don't know how he learned to create his characters, but he never asked me for help (though he does have my son create his actions/effects).

Look, we get it. FG is not the simplest program to learn to use. What concrete actionable changes that would not decrease functionality would you suggest? Think it through, because when you suggest X, the next question will be how does that affect Y? Saying something like 'oh, it should be easier and it should function just like Roll20' is not concrete or actionable without decreasing functionality.

Finally, if you can't, that's ok, I can't either. It doesn't mean your opinion about usability is being dismissed. It doesn't mean your experience is not valid. They are. It just means their might not be a business wise path to get from here to there.

[celestian]

OPs post reminds me of myself when I first started in UX -- I had an idea of what a modern system *should* look like and went from there. After actually relaunching FGU and looking it over, the only thing that feels out of place is the lack of a `File` menu. For some reason the general interface does *feel* dated (? idk why, don't super care either lol), but the only thing really lacking there is a hotkey to pan around images/maps (and the lack of a File/Edit menu; right-clicking to exit is ...neat but is silly and confusing)

These are two things that have always bothered me. I'm working on a solution for the first one and trying to get API sorted for the second.

[damned]

I think you are underestimating your own technical skill.

As a test get someone who has a background in DnD but never used a VTT. They should be ok with computer s, but not great ( Can print a word document, but has never installed custom mods for a game.)

Give them a link to the fantasy Grounds website, and tell them to install it. Then create a LVL 5 cleric.

Next just watch them, DO NOT help them in any way. No prompts, no "just right click over here", nothing. It might be even better to leave the room.

I think you will be surprised at how much trouble they have.

I guarantee you he couldnt build a 5th level cleric by himself the first time without reading at least 20 or so pages of rules.
Show him how to build a cleric once on fantasy grounds and Id be surprised if he couldnt do it a second time by himself.

[Neovirtus]

Look, we get it. FG is not the simplest program to learn to use. What concrete actionable changes that would not decrease functionality would you suggest?

To me the issue is not that it's difficult to learn. TTRPG's are complicated. A software capable of running 20 different ones is going to be complicated. To me the issues are things where the software works counter to user intuition which makes even the simplest of things harder. I think it's perfectly acceptable for someone to not know how to code an effect without doing some reading. I don't think it's acceptable UI/UX for the user to not understand how to enter text in a text field (and before you say this doesn't happen... I've introduced about 20 people to this software over the last 3+ years, and this is the first question I get 100% of the time).

A list off the top of my head with proposed directions for improvement.


Text fields do not register as "Active". Users expect to see a blinking text cursor when a text entry field is active. I can't tell you how many people I've had to tell how to edit their name or ability scores.
Drag and Drop is great but there is no indication that a field is a valid location for drag and drop functionality. When you drag a link, highlight objects it will interact with upon dropping.
Window functionality. Everyone expects windows to behave in certain ways. Toolbars should use standard icons for minimize, window/fullscreen mode, and close. File, edit, view, etc menus (or other context menus for different OS's) seem obvious to me, but I'm open to other ideas.
Dragging a class onto the character sheet to level it is hugely counter intuitive. It also means de-leveling is problematic. The fact that actually increasing the level # next to your class on your sheet doesn't do anything is also counter intuitive. These should be coupled. if you increase the number it should have the same function as dragging the class onto your sheet.

[Kelrugem]

Window functionality. Everyone expects windows to behave in certain ways. Toolbars should use standard icons for minimize, window/fullscreen mode, and close. File, edit, view, etc menus (or other context menus for different OS's) seem obvious to me, but I'm open to other ideas.


Just to add some things: One can maybe indeed change things similar to Windows behaviour, but I personally have chosen FG especially also because it does not like a generic Windows App; basically I want to play a RPG and not a "texteditor", FG allows a lot to theme which is the reason why I like the sidebar buttons (you can for example change the story button to a closed book (which may have some chaotic sorting of its pages), and it opens when you click on it; I really like such small things, it increases the immersion, especially when the theme fits the setting I play in :) ). But I like some of your ideas, I didn't want to diminish what you say; I only want to add that I personally find it important that FG does not like any generic Windows App :)




Dragging a class onto the character sheet to level it is hugely counter intuitive. It also means de-leveling is problematic. The fact that actually increasing the level # next to your class on your sheet doesn't do anything is also counter intuitive. These should be coupled. if you increase the number it should have the same function as dragging the class onto your sheet.


This I personally would keep as it is. What I also really like of FG is that it succeeds the "tightrope walk" of automation and manual editing. VTT should use the computer to automate as much as possible, that's of course the biggest advantage of VTTs over classical F2F games :) Computer games are fully automated, but with the cost that it restricts what you can do, a VTT though should never restrict or interfere with what you do manually; you should still be possible to change and do everything, then manually if not automated. That you combine the manual editing of the class level with automation would start to complicate manual editing, you have to change the class to avoid that the automation interferes with e.g. your homebrew rules (and there are still people leveling manually but may have used the class drag&drop in the first level or so; so, there can be a mixture of manual editing and automation, not everyone wants to create a new class entry for small manual changes). Therefore De-leveling is also difficult to code, because how you want to tell FG whether someone changes something manually after some automated level process due to some own rules or so? :) Coding de-leveling is only really possible for fully automated sheets which are completely locked for manual editing in my opinion, and I do not want to loose the manual stuff as pointed out :)

(but I am not saying that it is impossible, to have some automated note/spreadsheet could be useful here where at least the last automated level-up things are denoted as it already happens in the chat, that may help a bit because then one has not to look directly at the rules etc.. EDIT: Or a separate character wizard for things like this as LordEntrails mentioned below :) )

Just thinking a bit, nothing elaborated here of course :)

[dragonheels]

Just to add some things: One can maybe indeed change things similar to Windows behaviour, but I personally have chosen FG especially also because it does not like a generic Windows App; basically I want to play a RPG and not a "texteditor", FG allows a lot to theme which is the reason why I like the sidebar buttons (you can for example change the story button to a closed book (which may have some chaotic sorting of its pages), and it opens when you click on it; I really like such small things, it increases the immersion, especially when the theme fits the setting I play in :) ). But I like some of your ideas, I didn't want to diminish what you say; I only want to add that I personally find it important that FG does not like any generic Windows App :)

I couldn't have said better!

[LordEntrails]

A list off the top of my head with proposed directions for improvement.


Text fields do not register as "Active". Users expect to see a blinking text cursor when a text entry field is active. I can't tell you how many people I've had to tell how to edit their name or ability scores.

Agreed, that would be good.




Drag and Drop is great but there is no indication that a field is a valid location for drag and drop functionality. When you drag a link, highlight objects it will interact with upon dropping.

This too would be very helpful




Window functionality. Everyone expects windows to behave in certain ways. Toolbars should use standard icons for minimize, window/fullscreen mode, and close. File, edit, view, etc menus (or other context menus for different OS's) seem obvious to me, but I'm open to other ideas.

Minimize in FGC interesting. I believe if you saw last week's FG Friday their is different window management coming for FGU. But that's from memory, maybe not?

I'm not a fan of File/View etc menus. But Celestian is working on that as is. To me, having such a set of menus would simple eat up screen space that would not often be used. But, I get that not having is a deviation from expectations.




Dragging a class onto the character sheet to level it is hugely counter intuitive. It also means de-leveling is problematic. The fact that actually increasing the level # next to your class on your sheet doesn't do anything is also counter intuitive. These should be coupled. if you increase the number it should have the same function as dragging the class onto your sheet.


You do know a new character wizard is in the works right?

Personally I think it would be nice if dice fields (such as 5E hit dice) would allow typing die strings as well. But for me its not such an issue that I have made a wish list item for it and hence I don't worry about it not being implemented.

For these and other issues, who has gone in and voted on the ideas in the wish list? And for any that don't have wish list items, who has bothered to go and add the idea? And then put links here in this thread (or other threads) with links to the items so people can easily find and vote on them?

Finally, just in case anyone is not aware, just because "we" (or any set of users) want some enhancement, doesn't mean it would be a good business decision to implement, or even if it is where it fits in the list of priorities, or that it is going to be done in any given time frame.

The best "we" can do as users it to outline our wants and the reasons for them in meaningful ways. Voice our support for them using the tools SW has provided (the Wish List), and understand that they are going to weigh not only our wants, but their own goals, intentions and their own limited resources. And of course understanding the implications of each and every change (which we users often forget about when we want something). And not be upset when we don't get the validation for our ideas that we think they deserve.

[Neovirtus]

For these and other issues, who has gone in and voted on the ideas in the wish list? And for any that don't have wish list items, who has bothered to go and add the idea? And then put links here in this thread (or other threads) with links to the items so people can easily find and vote on them?


I think the reason I haven't put in feature requests for things like this is that it is so subjective and will be subject to so many technical and business limitations. I'm not a professional UI/UX designer. If I go make 10 requests on the wishlist, I'm fully aware that half of them are problematic in one or more ways. I trust Smiteworks to design the software, and as you say, I am also aware they are already working on a number of things like the character creator interface and toolbar buttons. So I don't feel the need to say "I want a text cursor"... I think they're already aware that these things are an issue, I just want to throw my support behind the idea that the New User Experience needs some work.



...That you combine the manual editing of the class level with automation would start to complicate manual editing, you have to change the class to avoid that the automation interferes with e.g. your homebrew rules...


This is a good point that I hadn't considered. Perhaps there's an intermediate option. I know there's a new character builder getting put together, maybe in addition to the current Character Class & Advancement or XP window (I forget what it's called, when you look at the details of that portion of the sheet), you could open the Character Builder and within that framework check a box to RAW simply level and de-level in a fully automated way using the current ruleset (i.e. add/remove class features, hit points, spell slots, etc). But when not in that window everything would work as it currently does.

[Magnimost]

Glad this is getting traction.

It's not (just) that there are so many rulesets, it's the inconsistency within and between rulesets, and the insistence on the UI being different for its own sake. It's not that many of the idiosyncracies are better than the standard way of doing things in every computer single mouse-driven UI since Windows 3.1, as most of the time they're not.

I've been urging SW to hire a UI/UX designer for years, as the UI is just that... challenging. As that's clearly not happening, here my suggestions. Excuse the color commentary (take them in jest, please), but this UI just needs so much work - hopefully there's some actionable tips there:
- Yes, text boxes need a cursor. Now. Seriously.
- Exit button or menu. Basics. Good.
- Window resizing by dragging borders, not just the corner which is invariably off screen. Especially images. I just learned about CTRL dragging (after using the software for what five years), but that shouldn't be necessary since there's a perfectly working alternative everyone is familiar with since the very first time they used any computer UI: dragging those sweet sweet borders.
- Images scaled to the viewing window by default. Now everyone is zoomed at 100%, so when I plop an Epic Map to the screen everyone is looking at a giant nail. And on Mumble saying I can only see a giant nail. What's the meaning of this giant nail? Ok, seriously, how do you resize the map? Let me take you on a ride. You drag and drag and drag until you find the bottom right corner. Then you drag and drag and drag until you have a window which fits into your viewing window. Then you right click, click on sub-menu entry to align vertical. AND THEN YOU END UP WITH A MAP WHICH IS ELONGATED ON ONE AXIS WITH THE CORNER OFF THE SCREEN again AND YOU HAVE TO START THE WHOLE DAMN THING again. Aaaaaaaaarrrgggghhh. Yes I could pre-scale the maps, but I run on 4K screen and some of my players run on tiny laptop screens, so that doesn't fly. And it shouldn't be necessary.
- Easier annotation of maps. Pinging maps, different ways to draw, not just the one-pixel-wide black text which is difficult or impossible to see.
- Infuriating behaviour of arrows on maps. You drag the arrow, whole arrow moves. Fine. You drag the end, only the end moves. Fine. You drag the start, the whole arrow moves. WTF?
- Completely arbitrary single- or double-click behavior with different rolls. Sometimes you need to single click there to throw a die. In another place you need to double-click. So you end up with double-attribute or skill rolls, and you're never sure which way is the correct way to do it.
- Deletion of empty lines requiring mouse acrobatics. Right clicking and deleting from the sub-menu, or even worse, figuring out that you first have to click on that plus sign in the corner, which opens the edit mode, and then you can delete it. Really?
- Inconsistent highlighting of text. For example, when I copy-paste monster skills from a PDF, and return to FG from the other window, FG has decided to highlight a previously entered skill. When I space or paste, it will overwrite said skill, having to start all over again. Every frigging time.
- Saved the best for last - even worse than image scaling: the incredibly frustrating module management streamlined. Why can't Johnny see the Elven Composite Bow in his item list? After fifteen minutes of bringing the game to a standstill and wasting everyone's time we figure out he didn't have the goddamn module loaded. GM has to load a module, then enable player viewing, with cute but obtuse icons which don't tell you anything about what they actually do. Then players have to be told to load them themselves, rather than GM pushing it all to the players - why on earth would each player have a different list of modules loaded in the same game? So much more to say about this feature, I better not as my blood pressure can't take this anymore. Frankly don't have suggestions here as I've no idea how to fix all that, that's where the UX designer would come in, that's how badly borked this feature is.

I love the fact that FG has brought my game group together, but boy, is it a tough software to use, or even to get along with. Unfortunately FGU isn't any better despite my pleads and hopes (image management is actually made even worse), but at least it won't require the use of a VPN. That alone is worth the cost of entry, as we've spent hundreds of man-hours (edit: ok, fine, two hundred tops) setting up and managing VPNs to get around FG's networking limitations over the years. It's stuff like that which makes me yearn for the days of setting IRQs, as that was easier and more consistent.

[damned]

- Yes, text boxes need a cursor. Now. Seriously.
??? text boxes do have cursors

- Images scaled to the viewing window...
Most applications that view photos seem to view them at 100% or full screensize - which ever is smaller. this is pretty much default behaviour.

- Easier annotation of maps. Pinging maps, different ways to draw, not just the one-pixel-wide black text which is difficult or impossible to see.
this is not the case in FGU

- Infuriating behaviour of arrows on maps. You drag the arrow, whole arrow moves. Fine. You drag the end, only the end moves. Fine. You drag the start, the whole arrow moves. WTF?
grabbing the arrow point allows you to reorient the arrow and adjust its length.

- Completely arbitrary single- or double-click behavior with different rolls. Sometimes you need to single click there to throw a die. In another place you need to double-click. So you end up with double-attribute or skill rolls, and you're never sure which way is the correct way to do it.
Buttons are single click
Fields are double click

- Deletion of empty lines requiring mouse acrobatics. Right clicking and deleting from the sub-menu, or even worse, figuring out that you first have to click on that plus sign in the corner, which opens the edit mode, and then you can delete it. Really?
really? like so many applications you select a row and then go to the menu to choose delete. how is this so different? and it is different because hiding those controls gives you back so much space for the 97% of the time that you are actually playing vs editing. and right click works.

- Inconsistent highlighting of text. For example, when I copy-paste monster skills from a PDF, and return to FG from the other window, FG has decided to highlight a previously entered skill. When I space or paste, it will overwrite said skill, having to start all over again. Every frigging time.
???

- Saved the best for last - even worse than image scaling: the incredibly frustrating module management streamlined. Why can't Johnny see the Elven Composite Bow in his item list? After fifteen minutes of bringing the game to a standstill and wasting everyone's time we figure out he didn't have the goddamn module loaded. GM has to load a module, then enable player viewing, with cute but obtuse icons which don't tell you anything about what they actually do. Then players have to be told to load them themselves, rather than GM pushing it all to the players - why on earth would each player have a different list of modules loaded in the same game? So much more to say about this feature, I better not as my blood pressure can't take this anymore. Frankly don't have suggestions here as I've no idea how to fix all that, that's where the UX designer would come in, that's how badly borked this feature is.
??? you are playing a character class from Xanathars Guide to Everything and a specialisation from the Sword Coasts adventurers guide. Im only using the Players Handbook and I have some memory constraints on my PC. I dont want to, nor is there any benefit in, load the books that Im not using.

I love the fact that FG has brought my game group together, but boy, is it a tough software to use, or even to get along with. Unfortunately FGU isn't any better despite my pleads and hopes (image management is actually made even worse), but at least it won't require the use of a VPN. That alone is worth the cost of entry, as we've spent hundreds of man-hours (edit: ok, fine, two hundred tops) setting up and managing VPNs to get around FG's networking limitations over the years. It's stuff like that which makes me yearn for the days of setting IRQs, as that was easier and more consistent.
?? what VPNs do you use? Hamachi takes 10mins to get 5 people going. from scratch.

[Magnimost]

- Easier annotation of maps. Pinging maps, different ways to draw, not just the one-pixel-wide black text which is difficult or impossible to see.
this is not the case in FGU

Great. Hopefully pinging maps will become a feature, so much easier than having to bring up an arrow or box every time you have to refer to something on the map.



- Infuriating behaviour of arrows on maps. You drag the arrow, whole arrow moves. Fine. You drag the end, only the end moves. Fine. You drag the start, the whole arrow moves. WTF?
grabbing the arrow point allows you to reorient the arrow and adjust its length.

Right. But when you grab the stem of the arrow, it moves the entire arrow, not just the end of the arrow like you'd expect.


?? what VPNs do you use? Hamachi takes 10mins to get 5 people going. from scratch.

We've gone through this over the years, but here I go again: we tried Hamachi and every other solution and guide offered on the forums (generously and for free), none of them worked with my ISP/modem/router config which I can't change. We cooked up our own using OpenVPN. Hence the hundred+ hours of rage-inducing setup, tweaking and maintenance. And we have a networking professional who sets up cloud servers for work, and another IT programmer in our group, so it's not us. I played internet multiplayer games in the 90s with less hassle.

[Eadorin]

I think there's some good discussion here. I've been a web/app developer for ... well longer than I care to admit (more than 20 years) and specifically focused on UI/UX for several. Someone said it earlier, and I wish I wasn't too lazy to scroll for it: the UI should follow convention when users expect it to, and when there's something unique or new, it should show them how. That's where things like highlighting a field when you mouseover/click on it come into play, or altering that pesky Right-Click Exit button. Once I learned that almost *everything* can be dragged and dropped onto something else, a lot of things became much easier to understand.

I too love the sidebar. Wouldn't change it. (There's a rabbit hole to run down here I'm specifically avoiding).

The network setup is a bit tricky but I feel like the Game Lobby really does a lot to alleviate that. I also know performance in FGU hasn't been tweaked but I can always tell when a player is connecting because my game freezes for upwards of 30 seconds lol. I'm sure that will be addressed.

Blind user testing is really the best option. Sit a user down who has never seen the software, and give them a set of tasks. Ask them to try to complete them as best they can without assistance and watch. Track what they click on (and what they don't!). For software as complex as this, it completely makes sense to have a "beginning Fantasy Grounds" tutorial video. I basically do this with any new player I bring on anyway. An OPTIONAL tutorial when users first log in isn't a bad idea either, though I get how that could be confusing based on GM/PC and ruleset. I can't tell you how many players never notice the hotbar until I point it out to them...Then when you tell them about mod keys they LOSE THEIR MINDS lol.

Most of what we've offered has been anecdotal, but good UX testing may reveal some definite areas for improvement. I also appreciate how difficult that is when you're a company trying to support two separate code bases...

<3 you, SmiteWorks Team. Keep up the great work.

[JohnD]

I think you are underestimating your own technical skill.

As a test get someone who has a background in DnD but never used a VTT. They should be ok with computer s, but not great ( Can print a word document, but has never installed custom mods for a game.)

Give them a link to the fantasy Grounds website, and tell them to install it. Then create a LVL 5 cleric.

Next just watch them, DO NOT help them in any way. No prompts, no "just right click over here", nothing. It might be even better to leave the room.

I think you will be surprised at how much trouble they have.

So, go back to myself a little over 8 years ago?

[kevdog45]

When I first started using Fantasy Grounds I had never used a VTT before in my life. I knew nothing about how they worked or were set up. I had basic computer knowledge and knew internet protocols. The only thing I really ever had to learn was how to set up my router when I wanted to join a game. I admit for the most part I've used Fantasy Grounds for solo play, which in my opinion it is great for. (I hesitate to say it because I know many folks shun solo play) but I have had no real problems when playing in a group either.

I think the improvements that Unity has made to the system are great. I haven't used many other VTTs before but I've heard some of the innovations are overdue for this software but I could be mistaken. I love making maps and tiles and the tools that the software gives you use and manipulate those items aren't that hard to figure out. I believe that new map and image features in Unity are probably the hardest thing a new user would have to learn but there are plenty of instructions on the Unity Wiki that help with that. Overall I can't really identify with the original users post. I think Fantasy Grounds takes an average amount of computer know how to use.

[Magnimost]

- Yes, text boxes need a cursor. Now. Seriously.
??? text boxes do have cursors

They don't always and it's inconsistent. For example in Traveller, clicking on a text field doesn't give a cursor until you start typing something. This is super confusing, as reported by others. I think this is the case in all rulesets we use.

[Neovirtus]

They don't always and it's inconsistent. For example in Traveller, clicking on a text field doesn't give a cursor until you start typing something. This is super confusing, as reported by others. I think this is the case in all rulesets we use.

Agreed, there are many fields on a 5e character sheet that do not have a text cursor. Looking at it now, I see that there is a slight darkening of the outline to indicate it is active, but it's not clear to new user. Ability Scores and HP fields in particular cause a lot of confusion in my experience.

That is just one example of a problematic area. It seems like SW now has a few more hands on deck, and as FGU comes toward release a number of people who have been working on that for years (?!?) will get to refocus on improving the software, and adding feature! Hopefully the spirit of the thread is not lost. I know it started off a bit contentious with a frustrated new user, but some of us who are not quite so new see many places where it could be made more accessible, even though the core of the software continues to be fantastic. I don't doubt that many suggestions are too difficult to implement, or the current method is found to be better than any alternative for a multitude of reasons; my hope is that threads like these give inspiration to the developers for areas to question the modus operandi and at least consider what an improvement might look like.

[SneakyPete]

Sorry if I came across as hostile, I definitely think that the core product is great. It's just missing a lot of the polish that you might expect for something that requires both a subscription + < $100 buy in. ( Buy the time you rebut, PH, DMG, MM, VGTM, XGTE and an adventure)

Ive been having a quick think about that actually suggestions I can make to help improve this. There are a few mentioned above, but here are some other ones which might be easier to implement. (Caviate, I have little knowledge of the history or Dev side of this software, so these might not be perfect solutions)

Have a look at reskinning, the launcher. The Brown and Red on Brown background, the fonts and artwork feel quite dated.

Similarly add a new default/skin that uses a more modern UI color style (not grey on grey, or brown on Brown)

Let people run the demo/free user install and join a game without needing to register a forum account.

Add, basic windows hotkey functionality (Alt +f4, Alt +enter, etc)

Allow resizing of windows, by dragging top and left boarder. Also a small.

Have some auto snap functionality when arranging windows so that are easier to align with the edge of the page and with other windows.

Having to open a second window when I want to add stuff to a character sheets or encounters feels clunky. If I click add class/item/language level, then it should be obvious I want to add a class/item/language. Don't make me manually go and open a second window with that list so I can go and drag the class in (Maybe a drop down box for something)

If possible link multiple windows as tabs. (Something like Chrome's tab functionality, with dragging tabbs together/apart) in a single window.

One more as a quality of life thing. If I click and drag an NPC or PC on to a map, auto add it to the combat tracker. It to me way too long why some the the things on the map where just tokens and others where actually characters.

I know this feels like a rant, but honestly do think this userablity stuff needs to be a very high priority for the Devs, if they want to take advantage of the current market for VTTs.

[TXCBoy36]

There does seem to be a small number of people who can't get the software installed.

There are steps that have to be done successfully in order to run FG properly, which are documented here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/pages/819212/Installing+Fantasy+Grounds+Unity

It's usually the settings after the base install that seem to challenge people - entering their license key, logging in with their FG account and password, and running an update.

I know there's a new installer being tested, I don't know if this changes the process or not.

I was able to load the demo version with no issues. Am considering getting the FGC license. Still working through the system but so far I am pleased with its capabilities. There are alot of videos out there on youtube which helps with running FG along with FG College with available classes on how to use this platform.

[Aiddar]

New (ish) user here.

Was looking for a VTT as a result of the Great Lockdown, to keep our group in contact and hopefully continue to play games (I - and the rest of the group!! - had never even looked at VTTs before).

I started on FG about a month ago - checked some external reviews, and pretty much all said the same thing - FG is generally the best potential platform out there for RPGs, but there is a significant learning curve to get the best out of it. I can only agree 100% :-)

Loving the system NOW, but had a number of problems getting myself (and the players!) up to speed. Even now, I am convinced there are huge elements I am not using, as so far not had a need for them. I would never tell anyone to get FG as a DM, unless I *also* told them be prepared to spend a couple of days to get the best out of the system. It is not (and as far as I can see, is not designed to be) a totally automated solution where you can run games at the drop of a hat. It is a tool set that allows games to be run, but requires someone who knows the system to do that effectively.

On the plus side (and there is a HUGE plus side) - a) there is a VERY supportive community on the boards - any questions I have raised have normally been answered within 30 mins, b) there is a series of YouTube videos showing pretty much everything you need, c) there is the college/briefing that gives good coverage of the basics.

Overall, my purely personal view is that there is a significant overhead to getting the best out of the system, and I think there always will be - considering the sheer number of options and platforms supported, it was (to my mind) always going to be a tool kit approach, and for any tool kit, it is a case of getting to know the tools. That takes time and effort, but is worth the effort - BUT - as noted above, some standardisation of the UI (for me - dragging maps is a pain using the golden compass at the bottom of the screen and the lack of cursor when over typing something) really really should be done. Even with that though, it will remain a complex toolset...

Cheers

Paul

[Bonkon]

Good Day Aiddar :)
You are, in my opinion, correct. It is a powerful tool but you need to take time to learn it. As far as map resizing, the golden compass is there, but there is a short cut CTR:+Left click and drag to adjust map size :)