Pathfinder Second Edition - Bestiary - Inquiries, Issues, Development, and Updates

[ShadeRaven]

With the Pathfinder Second Edition Bestiary now available in the store, I am starting this thread for people to come to looking for a consolidation of known issues and bugs, ongoing development, and product updates. If you are looking for a quick link to find the Bestiary, you can find it here: PF2 Bestiary for Fantasy Ground (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=PZOSMWPZO2102FG)

Foremost, if you find any inaccurate data or information, please report it here and I will address it ASAP so that it can be rectified in the next available update. The more information the better (which creature, what aspect is a problem, etc). I appreciate even the smallest details I might have missed in the creation of the product, including simple typos or formatting errors.

Beyond that, there is a lot of automation that'll be developed over time, and I'll keep that information updated, too, so you know what to expect, what's in the works, and what's still on a wish-list. Trenloe is amazing at what he does, but there are complexities involved in setting it up and I'll aid in the process as much as possible, but the key component is going to be time.

Because it will take time getting the automation to where we will want it, I am more than happy to give examples and help people use the available resources to accomplish just about anything you'd like to have in some working form from the Bestiary. Anyone familiar with my (SR) Bestiary knows that there are ways to get things like Dragon's Breath, Diseases and Poisons, Saving Throws, and similar effects working through use of the Spell Tab available on each creature.

As a final word, if you are reporting something, please include which version of Fantasy Grounds you are using. There are aspects of Unity that are still under development that work perfectly fine within Classic, so it's important to know which virtual tabletop you are referring to. If it's an error message, please include what you were doing at the time of the error report and include the error message as well.

Thank You and Enjoy!
ShadeRaven

[ShadeRaven]

(Reserved for Updates)

[Weissrolf]

FGC 3.3.11

Usually I run bought adventure paths so there is little need for the Bestiary, but I bought it anyway and gave it a quick test for automation. So here is some critical feedback. ;)

Unfortunately the current implementation of saves + effects seems less useful than I hoped for. Double-clicking on a saving-throw in the automation does not automatically apply its effects. Here is an example of what I have to do to apply the saves + effects of a Cloaker's "Infrasonic Moan" (30" emanation) to a party of 5 people.

1. Target everyone within the 30" emanation.
2. Double-click on the automation "Save: Will[DC:22]" to let everyone automatically roll their saves.
3. Clear targets.
4. Target everyone who failed their save.
5. Double-click on the automation "Effect: Frightened: 1" to apply the fail effect.
5. Clear targets.
6. Target everyone who critically failed their save.
7. Double-click on the automation "Effect: Frightened: 2" to apply the 1st critical fail effect.
8. Double-click on the automation "Effect: Fleeing[D:2][End]" to apply the 2nd critical fail effect.
9. Clear targets.

Instead of this rather inconvenient way I would like the save and corresponding effects to be linked into a single double-click and then be applied accordingly (success/fail/crit fail).

It would also be useful if automation save/effects could be dragged & dropped on single characters instead of having to target them first, this is possible with attack rolls. I know of the workaround to first double-click and then drag the result from chat to single characters, but that is obviously an extra step and more mouse-movement.

Here is how I currently do it without automation:

1. Ask everyone to do a Will save.
2. Either target everyone who failed their save or hit ALT-3 to open the Effects window and drag the effect to the one or two affected PCs.
3. Either target everyone who critically failed their save or just drag the effect to one or two affected PCs.
4. Either clear targets or just be done with it.

[Trenloe]

Instead of this rather inconvenient way I would like the save and corresponding effects to be linked into a single double-click and then be applied accordingly (success/fail/crit fail).
This is standard operation throughout Fantasy Grounds, not just the PF2 ruleset - one action does one action only. I doubt I'll change that.


It would also be useful if automation save/effects could be dragged & dropped on single characters instead of having to target them first, this is possible with attack rolls.
This will come in a future release.

Thanks for the feedback. The automation actions are provided to allow triggering of standard PF2 actions. The GM determines how they're going to use them. For example, having players roll saves is a common occurrence, as many players don't like the system doing the roll and prefer to do it themselves. But then the effect actions can be used to apply as needed.

[Weissrolf]

Three target/clear operations for a single action may be the "standard operation", but it is still too inconvenient to even consider using it. If the GM rolls the save for everyone then effects ought to be applied automatically, this is what "automation" is for.

[Trenloe]

Three target/clear operations for a single action may be the "standard operation", but it is still too inconvenient to even consider using it. If the GM rolls the save for everyone then effects ought to be applied automatically, this is what "automation" is for.
I am looking into ways of tracking and applying the results of saves as one action(similar to the "basic save" functionality now).

We're still getting there with the experimental NPC automation. But one thing that will remain - an action (e.g. attack, save, etc.) will always be separate from the effect of that action (damage, effects, etc.) - there are just too many edge cases to try to do an all-in-one automation. This is by design and will remain for all mainstream activities.

[Weissrolf]

Sounds like a good solution:

1. Target players.
2. Roll saves (GM or players).
3. Double-click once (!) to apply effects according to save results.
4. Clear targets.

[ShadeRaven]

Hey Weissrolf. Thanks for the feedback!

Automation is really still in its infancy. We would have loved nothing better than to have it released in a complete and finished state, but the enhancement it offers even without some of the down-the-road features seems too good to withhold for now.

So while I agree, there are some things we'd love to have employed to make the joys of GMing ;) easier (I run 3 campaigns, so I get you), for now, just keep letting us know what you'd like to see as this progresses and have patience as we work towards those ends.

[ShadeRaven]

Oh! And one thing I would suggest having active in the meantime, if you don't already, is the Target: Remove on Miss. This can be found in the options window (the little gear in the upper right hand corner). Personally, I set this to [Multi] so that it works only for multiple target attacks/saves. What this does, at least, is remove all those targets that made their saving throw (although it doesn't remove those targets until after damage for saves that are tagged BASIC).

While it doesn't cover effects that happen on a successful saving throw and we still have to deal with critical failures that are different from normal failed saves, this at least tends to start the process of differentiating between the "good" and the "bad" saving throw results on targets.

[MaxAstro]

This reminds me - it used to be that if you targeted a bunch of creatures and then triggered an effect with a save, the ones who saved would be removed as targets. This meant that if you then applied the failure effect of the spell, it would only apply to the ones who failed. However, in some recent version, it seems to have changed that targets who succeed have to be manually removed as targets.

Is this an intentional change?

EDIT: I just saw ShadeRaven's post above. I haven't changed my options, but perhaps that Remove on Miss option got changed somehow by an update. I'll check it.

[ShadeRaven]

I believe when set to remove on miss (in options), it still does that with saves - at least in classic. I'll double-check later to see if this still holds true. I can't speak for Unity, though.

[MaxAstro]

Yeah, I missed your post at first and then you replied before I had time to edit mine. Stop being so fast and responsive, ShadeRaven! :P

[Weissrolf]

"Remove on Miss" does not affect saves and the current behavior of saves and targeting is rather quirky/bugged. When a save is successful then the successfully saved target is removed *after* a damage roll, regardless of whether the damage was halved or nullified. I frankly have no idea about the intended use of this behavior.

[Trenloe]

When a save is successful then the successfully saved target is removed *after* a damage roll, regardless of whether the damage was halved or nullified.
This only occurs if the save is set to "Half on save" or "BASIC" in the NPC automation. It doesn't remove the targets as it needs all of them there to apply the relevant damage based off the save level of success.

If the save action doesn't have "Half on save" set, and the campaign settings have remove on miss = multi, then any passed saving throws will be removed from the targets.

[Weissrolf]

Why are the saves removed at all after applying damage then? How do I keep that from happening?

[Trenloe]

Why are the saves removed at all after applying damage then?
Only those that passed the save are removed so that any additional effects can be applied to those that failed.


How do I keep that from happening?
You can't, it's coded into the Basic save functionality.

[ShadeRaven]

Hey Weissrolf. It's very rare that a BASIC save also has an effect that happens on a successful save but as I have done all of the Bestiaries, I can't think of a single instance where a Successful Save and a Failed Save have the same Effect on a BASIC saving throw.

In other words, if it's tagged BASIC, just do the damage so the half-damage targets (or no damage on a crit success) are taken care of. There will never be a time (iirc) where you wished your saved and failed saving throw targets will be taking the exact same EFFECT off of that basic save. Don't sweat the small stuff, as they say.

As for having to wrestle with the 4 categories of saving throws that include 4 different results for EFFECT attachments, it's an imperfect system. Part of what make Pathfinder 2 so intriguing and enjoyable to me is the new way they are handling crits for both strikes and saves. It'll take time to adjust all the resulting influences this change has brought about and it doesn't just involve getting changes to the PF2 code. Changes to the Core have much bigger effects that certainly take careful consideration and implementation before they can be realized.

Hopefully (!), your campaign isn't full of too many Frightful Presence Dragons and AOE Aura Devils laying waste with their grand powers that cause all sorts of terrible (and variable) effects! On the bright side, the players will be too busy worrying about surviving to notice any delay in applying all the effects. It might even help them plan for a way to survive ;)

[Weissrolf]

I understand, this makes some sense. Getting that one-click effects solution would sure be nice.

[dsaraujo]

I just bought the Bestiary 2 and I'm having problems adding the Specter (the main reason I bought it was to not to parse it manually), and everytime I try to add it to combat tracker, I got the error:

Script execution error: [string "scripts/manager_combat2.lua"]:614: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'nExceptEnd' (a nil value)

I tried updating and removing all extensions with no luck.

[Trenloe]

I just bought the Bestiary 2 and I'm having problems adding the Specter (the main reason I bought it was to not to parse it manually), and everytime I try to add it to combat tracker, I got the error:

Script execution error: [string "scripts/manager_combat2.lua"]:614: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'nExceptEnd' (a nil value)

I tried updating and removing all extensions with no luck.
Thanks for reporting. I'm sure the product converter will get this fixed up soon. In the meantime, to fix the issue, make a copy of the Specter and edit the copy: add a close bracket to the Resistances line so that it reads: all 5 (except force, ghost touch, or positive)

[dsaraujo]

Thanks so much!

[Weissrolf]

One of my players wanted to "Summon Fey". I thought that I could open the Bestiary and filter all fey of appropriate level. Turns out that there is no category "Fey" in the FG Bestiary, despite this category existing in the PDF Bestiary.

[Trenloe]

One of my players wanted to "Summon Fey". I thought that I could open the Bestiary and filter all fey of appropriate level. Turns out that there is no category "Fey" in the FG Bestiary, despite this category existing in the PDF Bestiary.
Paizo list creatures by category and type. Also creatures all have traits. These are three different things, although there is some overlap.

The "Creature by Type" list is available in the Appendix of the Reference manual, which will give you a list of the creatures that are of type = fey. This is not the same as Category = Fey, because there are no creatures of category = fey. The creatures that are listed as type = fey have categories of gremlin, sprite, nymph (to name but a few) and some don't have categories at all.

I need to revisit doing filtering based on traits, but I don't know if this will ever be implemented as it is very inefficient and a big burden on FG if there are a lot of creatures available within the campaign and activated modules.

Use the Creature by type list in the appendix of the bestiary if you want to get a list of fey type creatures.

[Weissrolf]

I don't see me ever filtering by a category "nymph" instead of a trait "fey" or by category "elephant" instead of trait "animal". So category filtering in its current implementation seems of very limited use.

I do understand that trait filtering might put a burden on the CPU, but frankly, if users choose to enable/use it then they know what they are doing from the second time around. And my PC is powerful enough to do digital filtering, it's what computers are made for so that we do not have to look up information in the appendix of a book. One could argue that the whole idea of using traits (aka tags) is to enable search/filtering by tag. That's what tags are used for in all kind of applications.

That being said, how about implementing a filter called "Type", which does the filtering based on the list of creatures by type as found in the appendix?

[Willot]

In the Bestiary Automation is there anything like this

"Escape Chain"|DC: 22 Athletics

?

[ShadeRaven]

Not entirely sure what you are asking, Willot. When I set up the automation, some things (currently) only get Effect Notes to indicate their process. For example, creatures that Grab will end up with an automation effect notation that will be something like this:

"automatically Grabs"|Effect: Grabbed; Escape DC 28[DC:28][D:2][END]

That will at least show that the grabbed creature is being held and needs an Escape check with a DC of 28 (will last til the end of the next round as per the Grab rules - unless reapplied).

There very well may be a day when having the DC tied to an effect can be coupled with the player character skill actions (which is in the works), but for now, this is the best I could offer. I am, as always, open up to alternative solutions and discussions on what we can do currently to make game play easier. :)

PS: I added the Grab action for creatures which feature that particular ability on hit. It is displayed as follows (which is where the automatically grabs automation trigger comes in to play):

Grab [one-action] Requirement The monster's last action was a success with a Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry, or it has a creature grabbed using this action. Effect The monster automatically Grabs the target until the end of the monster's next turn. The creature is grabbed by whichever body part the monster attacked with, and that body part can't be used to Strike creatures until the grab is ended.

Using Grab extends the duration of the monster's Grab until the end of its next turn for all creatures grabbed by it. A grabbed creature can use the Escape action to get out of the grab, and the Grab ends for grabbed creatures if the monster moves away from it.

[kaernunnos]

Just discovered this in a reddit post, but seems Bestiary 2 got some errata released quietly, even the Archive of Nethys doesn't seem to have the updates they posted here (https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq)

[ShadeRaven]

Thx, Kaer, I'll definitely look into updating FG's version to reflect this.

[thepope]

Thanks for reporting. I'm sure the product converter will get this fixed up soon. In the meantime, to fix the issue, make a copy of the Specter and edit the copy: add a close bracket to the Resistances line so that it reads: all 5 (except force, ghost touch, or positive)

Is there a "best practice" for this between using brackets or an exclamation mark? It seems both work, so I'm curious which would be best.

[Trenloe]

Is there a "best practice" for this between using brackets or an exclamation mark? It seems both work, so I'm curious which would be best.
FG makes an attempt to parse the description text into FG effect code. The final FG effect code uses exclamation marks to denote exceptions. It's not designed to specifically ready exclamation marks in the original text, but some formats including them may get passed through to the end effect; but it's not specifically designed that way.

[Saeval]

I'm not sure if I should post bugs I find for Bestiary 2 here or somewhere else but I found one when running my current game. I have the most current release of unity on the Live channel so I tested and replicated it in a new campaign, no extensions or modules loaded. I loaded up Bestiary 2 and when I put the Nyogoth (lvl 10 uncommon creature) into the combat tracker I get an error message.

[ERROR] Script execution error: [string "scripts/manager_combat2.lua"]:752: attempt to concatenate field '?' (a nil value)

Also I learned what "concatenate" means today lol

[dsaraujo]

Super minor thing, but on Bestiary modules, if you get to the Modules window and see the index of links, the second entry reads "CreatureAbilitys" instead of "Creature Abilities". The window title when open is correct.

[dustinjuerling]

Not sure if this applies to every Beastiary, but in general NPC spells do not gain heightened damage for spells. There are some that do not add their ability modifier when applicable as well. Please fix!

For example the Gelugon (Ice Devil), from Beastiary 2, does 12d6 on the 7th level Cone of Cold. The spell has a base damage of 12d6, but when heightened to level 7 it should cause 16d6.

[rennyo]

By unknown reason Soul Eater is Immune to all good damage =/ When you damage to it with Divine Lance good: 0dmg. Monster has WEAK: good 10. I cannot find what is wrong but this is a really horror monster :D
52987

[Trenloe]

By unknown reason Soul Eater is Immune to all good damage =/ When you damage to it with Divine Lance good: 0dmg. Monster has WEAK: good 10. I cannot find what is wrong but this is a really horror monster :D
52987
EDIT: Sorry, I take the below comment back. Archives of Nethys (SmiteWorks have an agreement with AoN for data sharing and we used AoN data for some of Bestiary 2) have this creature as Neutral, but the actual Bestiary 2 book has it as Neutral-Evil. We'll get that fixed. Thanks for reporting.

That seems like an issue in the monster design. As per the Damage rules: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=340 "good damage harms only evil creatures" and the Soul Eater is neutral (in Archives of Nethys), so good damage doesn't harm it.

[rennyo]

Yep, changing alignment to neutral evil solved the problem. Thank you for reference and reply. It could be mistype in monster manual too. Anyway it is not question to FG.

[Trenloe]

Yep, changing alignment to neutral evil solved the problem. Thank you for reference and reply. It could be mistype in monster manual too. Anyway it is not question to FG.
It's definitely an issue with the Archives of Nethys data - showing N, not NE. The Bestiary 2 book/PDF from Paizo shows it correctly as NE - otherwise the weakness to good wouldn't make sense. We'll get the FG Bestiary 2 DLC fixed.

[Kermit1013]

@Trenloe may have already been noted, but just in case...
My entry for brass dragon in the bestiary actually has the text for black dragon...


54852

I feel like that didn't work the way it was supposed to - but I do have a screenshot of the issue

[Trenloe]

@Trenloe may have already been noted, but just in case...
My entry for brass dragon in the bestiary actually has the text for black dragon...


54852

I feel like that didn't work the way it was supposed to - but I do have a screenshot of the issue
This should be fixed with today's update: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?75621-Release-Updates-for-October-25th-2022

Thanks for reporting the issue.

[Minethulhu]

Apologies on this report for a few reasons:

This may be known and not easily fixable since these have been out for quite some time (if reported, I didn't find it)
The fact that it likely bothers a very, very, very small minority if this is indeed the first report

The name of the product:
Pathfinder Bestiary 1, 2 and 3

The issue:
Inconsistent category naming convention

The name of the sections/objects impacted (e.g. the map name, the feat name, the story title, etc.):
There appears to be at least 2 different naming conventions used

Pathfinder RPG 2 - Bestiary
PF2 Bestiary 2
PF2 Bestiary 3

And even these are not used consistently. The above are used for categories in Assets, Bestiary, Modules, Items and Traits, but:

Pathfinder RPG 2 - Bestiary
Pathfinder RPG 2 - Bestiary 2
PF2 Bestiary 3

is used for Images.

When searching for objects via category the current inconsistent convention is not ideal.

If you know a fix, what that fix should be:
Use one and only one of either:

Pathfinder RPG 2 - Bestiary #
PF2 Bestiary #

[ShadeRaven]

Hey Minethulhu! Thanks for the input!

I am currently doing a revamp of the automation for the Bestiaries (some need it more than others) and have gone in and looked at that naming convention (having already made some adjustments there). The main problem was that the ruleset was new at the time, and I was also new to the conversion process, and it took a little while for me to settle in and for there to be a generally accepted standard to follow.

Hopefully, you'll see less confusion and more consistency as these changes are enacted. :)

[scottbrown]

Pathfinder Bestiary 2:
Creature: Adult Crystal Dragon
Traits: 'Unique' trait when it should be the 'Uncommon' trait.

[Trenloe]

Pathfinder Bestiary 2:
Creature: Adult Crystal Dragon
Traits: 'Unique' trait when it should be the 'Uncommon' trait.
Thanks for reporting the issue, and sorry we missed it when you first reported it. We'll get a fix queued up for the next release.

[GuMaTo]

Hello,
Recently I was preparing an encounter for my next PF2E session, and I noticed that one of the monsters I've selected, the scarecrow from bestiary 2, doesn't have any automation regarding it's special abilities, like "Scarecrows's Leer", "Baleful Glow" and "Clawing Fear". I would like to know if it is suposed to be like this or if the implementations are in fact missing.

[Muagen]

I know the question is whether or not it should be automated, but I thought I'd offer an explanation as to why these abilities weren't automated. It might be the case that Clawing Fear was overlooked because of the difficulty/impracticality of automating Baleful Glow and Mundane Appearance.

There are some things it is easy for the client to check, like whether or not a character currently has an Effect attached to them. Clawing Fear should be easy enough to automate because an Effect can be applied to the Scarecrow that will apply bonus damage to its attacks if the target has the Frightened condition Effect on them.

No Effect currently exists that would determine whether or not a target Has Acted or Has Not Acted. Thus, Baleful Glow isn't easily automated, as part of the ability requires checking whether or not another actor on the Combat Tracker has already acted in that turn (note: the light should be achievable as an Effect). Similarly, Mundane Appearance requires checking whether or not the Scarecrow has acted to determine whether it is getting the automatic result for DCs and checks--and even then, the client has no way to do much of anything useful with that information. You would set the DC to detect the Scarecrow at 32 and then secretly roll another creature's Perception against that value or compare the Scarecrow's Deception to the appropriate defending DC.

Edited to add:
You could create a custom Effect condition that you apply each turn to each relevant actor on the Combat Tracker called, for example, Has Not Acted, and then remove that Effect each turn from each potential target as they act. Then, you could write an effect for the Scarecrow that would check whether or not the actor has the Has Not Acted condition for the remainder of the automation. I suspect that would get bothersome by halfway through the first turn, though, and would definitely tip your hand to the players that something was going on.

[GuMaTo]

Thanks for your answer, Muagen!
I was thinking more about simple things being automated than the whole special ability itself. For example, "Scarecrow's Leer" involves a DC 18 Will save, and different conditions would be applied depending on the degree of success. I was hoping to have the option to apply these effects right from the combat tracker, like what happens for some other monsters, where the text of the respective condition is "clickable". In addition, the lighting effect of “Baleful Glow” could be “clickable” from the combat tracker. “Mundane Appearance” has no need to be automated at all, since it is more related to a direct and simple perception check, as you mentioned.

[Muagen]

Happy to get a chance to participate in the conversation!

I can't see a reason Scarecrow's Leer wasn't automated. There's nothing particularly tricky about that one, and the automation for pushing the Frightened and Fascinated according to the correct Success level is straightforward. I'd bet this was just the sort of oversight this thread was made to address, and now we'll have to wait for feedback from Trenloe/ShadeRaven.

[Trenloe]

Hello,
Recently I was preparing an encounter for my next PF2E session, and I noticed that one of the monsters I've selected, the scarecrow from bestiary 2, doesn't have any automation regarding it's special abilities, like "Scarecrows's Leer", "Baleful Glow" and "Clawing Fear". I would like to know if it is suposed to be like this or if the implementations are in fact missing.
Welcome to the FG forums. There's no specific "reason" for the missing automation, purely that it got overlooked. We'll make a note to look into adding that for a future release. Thanks for reporting the issue.