“Please remember not to update right before a game starts.”

[Steve Geddes]

I’ve seen this advice a couple of times and it seems counter intuitive to me (I would have thought updating to the latest release would generally be better).

What’s the reason behind this? What constitutes “right before”? Is half an hour prior to a game too close for comfort?

[Trenloe]

The main reason is that it can break some functionality - especially if you're running community extensions.

Updates are primarily tested via basic unit testing of the devs and then released into the community a short time beforehand - which results in testing of new functionality but not in depth testing of all combinations and possibilities that a GM might be running.

It's recommended that for the full released products (FG Classic at this time) the GM (and players) don't update just before a game - as it gives little time to fix any issues. The ideal scenario will be for the GM to update a while before the game and for them to load up their campaign, do a quick test of key functionality (load a map, open a PC, do some rolls, etc.). If they're running extensions they should test the functionality of those extensions.

[Steve Geddes]

Thanks. Is there a way to “unupdate”?

I’m the DM, so I could update a few hours or even days before and then check everything is working. What do I do if that causes problems though?

[Trenloe]

Thanks. Is there a way to “unupdate”?
There isn't. That's another reason for the recommendation.


What do I do if that causes problems though?
It depends on what problems you have.

If you get script errors, check your extensions - use the "Site search" facility for the exact script error.

If you have other issues, search the forums for similar/same issues - use the "Site search" facility.

If the above doesn't help, then post in the forums.

[Steve Geddes]

Okay, thanks. I’m not running any community extensions so hopefully this will be a problem we don’t encounter.

[damned]

With FGU the expectation is that this is a Beta and that issues may arise.
Updates include many bug fixes rather than feature updates.
The recommendation for FGU is always be on the new build and everyone has to be on the same build.

Its also true for FGC that you should be on the newest build and that you should all be on the same build.
However many FGC campaigns have one or more extensions loaded and these may need to be updated.
If you update just before a game and dont give yourself time to test your extensions you may have issues.

[LordEntrails]

As you can imagine, that recommendation became formalized after various complaints on the forums that a GM updates right before (30 minutes?) their players connected and something didn't work and they couldn't play their game that time. It was almost always due to the use of a community extension that either had not been updated or the GM had not gotten the updated extension (since those are not included in the FG Updater and must be updated manually).

But, after a few very vocal complaints, that recommendation was formalized to help prevent people from ruining their game time.

[Steve Geddes]

I appreciate the insight. I’m not a tinkerer - I buy software and use it as is (the attraction of FG was the ability to buy a Paizo AP with minimal effort required). I’ll bear this in mind, but it’s unlikely to be a big issue for us, I suspect.

[esmdev]

Updates usually come out on Tuesdays. I generally wait until I know they're out and send reminders to players to please update. Especially for our morning games it prevents players from waking up, logging in and saying hey hang on I'm waiting for the update and my wireless is crazy slow today. While it doesn't generally take a long time my morning games are generally 3 hours so it eats time.

[Trenloe]

I appreciate the insight. I’m not a tinkerer - I buy software and use it as is (the attraction of FG was the ability to buy a Paizo AP with minimal effort required). I’ll bear this in mind, but it’s unlikely to be a big issue for us, I suspect.
Just because the majority of issues are with community extensions doesn’t mean the chances of you having issues if not running extensions aren’t there.

The recommendation remains for FG Classic (and I’d imagine FG Unity once it’s in full GA release) - to minimize any possible game disruption, don’t update just before a game.

[Steve Geddes]

Just because the majority of issues are with community extensions doesn’t mean the chances of you having issues if not running extensions aren’t there.

The recommendation remains for FG Classic (and I’d imagine FG Unity once it’s in full GA release) - to minimize any possible game disruption, don’t update just before a game.
I guess I’m struggling to see how it helps me, really. We play Monday nights, so I’ve suggested to everyone to update Thursday night.

If things don’t work, I don’t really understand what difference it makes whether we updated on Thursday or on Monday afternoon. isn’t Whatever update was available Thursday just as likely to cause problems as anything that happens between then and Monday?

Given I can’t roll an update back, what’s gained by holding off? The update I installed a week ago might have issues or the one I install an hour ago. Irrespective of elapsed time - the first time we log on after an update there’s a chance it’ll cause problems, isn’t there?

[Trenloe]

As I said earlier:


The ideal scenario will be for the GM to update a while before the game and for them to load up their campaign, do a quick test of key functionality (load a map, open a PC, do some rolls, etc.). If they're running extensions they should test the functionality of those extensions.

[LordEntrails]

Well, the other benefit of waiting is if you check the forums before you update and it's been a few days, any issues with the build will probably be well documented on the forums. And, anything critical will have a hot fix pushed with 24 hours or so (usually).

Since most updates happen Monday/Tuesday, if you (running a game on Monday) update on Monday, then you probably won't know yet if the build is broken and no hotfix will have yet (probably) been pushed.

[Steve Geddes]

To be clear, I’m not challenging the advice, I just don’t understand it. I do appreciate the effort and am sure what you’ve said makes sense, even though I don’t get it.

We’ll update at the end of our session each week. I’ll test a day before. I generally do that anyhow and begin hosting half an hour before we Skype in.

I just don’t understand how that helps if I discover a problem with last week’s update and have to do without FG for a session. It seems to me, obviously incorrectly, that last week’s update is at least as likely to cause issues as yesterday’s (especially if the cure for any problem is “run the update that fixes things that broke last time”).

I don’t an explanation though - I’ll just do what’s suggested. I suspect it’s beyond my technical ability. Computers aren’t my favourite thing.
Thanks.

[LordEntrails]

No problem Steve :)

Maybe another way to think of it, if you update after your game, that gives all the rest of the users about a week to discover any issues. i.e. let others discover if something is broken, rather than you :) Then when you go to do your setup and you have any problems you can come check the forums or Discord to see if there is a fix :)

[Steve Geddes]

I suspect I’ll need to see it happen before I understand the advantage. I learn by doing. :)
Appreciate your time, as ever.

[Trenloe]

If you find an issue 6 days before your next session then you have a chance to get it addressed before your next session. Don't try to over think it. It's a simple case of trying to maximise the amount of time available to get something fixed. If you update right before your game then you have no time to get any issues fixed and if it's a big issue then you've lost your session.

[esmdev]

I suspect I’ll need to see it happen before I understand the advantage. I learn by doing. :)
Appreciate your time, as ever.

In the most recent update to the Traveller ruleset the entire method that armor is used changed. Armor on anything from PC to NPC needed to be replaced. If you updated directly before the game you would be totally carped as everyone would be dying because armor would not be calculating in combat.

[Steve Geddes]

My intuition is, if we updated immediately after the game, that problem would manifest a week later (presumably with a subsequent patch sitting there on FG uninstalled).

I’m clearly missing something, but like I say, I think it’ll have to happen to me before I understand what the point is. I do appreciate the efforts to explain it to me and I don’t mean to be flippant, but this world has a certain amount of assumed technical knowledge/competence that I think I lack.

[TheMookNet]

Apart from any tech issues, in the worst case scenario where an update literally "breaks" something and might necessitate postponing/cancelling a game night, I'd rather know (and let my players know) 4-5 days ahead of time than 2 hours.

[Trenloe]

Think of this analogy.

If you're going on a road trip next week, and you have an issue with your car that needs fixing. Would you rather that you discovered that 6 days before you went on the road trip, or right before? You'd rather discover it 6 days before, right?

This is the same with FG. If you update 6 days before your next session - and do some quick testing. Then, if you find any issues you have 6 days to fix them. Sure, if the "fix" for any issues you might find is to run another update, then run another update - only if you *know* that is going to fix things - which you'll be told in the forums. But if FG is running OK now, then a "subsequent patch" isn't necessarily needed, right? It seems you're assuming that updates are always to fix something that's causing a major issues and has to be applied right now - this is rarely the case, but very often they're just minor issue fixes or functionality improvements - something you can probably wait for until next week. You shouldn't just update blindly assuming that you're going to be better after an update than before. If you updated 6 days ago and it's working fine, then there's no immediate need for a "subsequent patch" right now, is there?

[esmdev]

My intuition is, if we updated immediately after the game, that problem would manifest a week later (presumably with a subsequent patch sitting there on FG uninstalled).

I’m clearly missing something, but like I say, I think it’ll have to happen to me before I understand what the point is. I do appreciate the efforts to explain it to me and I don’t mean to be flippant, but this world has a certain amount of assumed technical knowledge/competence that I think I lack.

Technically what you are saying you plan to do is the same as remembering not to update right before the game.

[LordEntrails]

Steve, the advice and the analogies only work if you eitehr a) 'test' FG after you update and/or b) check the forums for reported update issues, before your next game session.

If after you update you don't touch FG until you go to start up for your next session then you are right in thinking their is little difference.

[Steve Geddes]

Think of this analogy.

If you're going on a road trip next week, and you have an issue with your car that needs fixing. Would you rather that you discovered that 6 days before you went on the road trip, or right before? You'd rather discover it 6 days before, right?

This is the same with FG. If you update 6 days before your next session - and do some quick testing. Then, if you find any issues you have 6 days to fix them. Sure, if the "fix" for any issues you might find is to run another update, then run another update - only if you *know* that is going to fix things - which you'll be told in the forums. But if FG is running OK now, then a "subsequent patch" isn't necessarily needed, right? It seems you're assuming that updates are always to fix something that's causing a major issues and has to be applied right now - this is rarely the case, but very often they're just minor issue fixes or functionality improvements - something you can probably wait for until next week. You shouldn't just update blindly assuming that you're going to be better after an update than before. If you updated 6 days ago and it's working fine, then there's no immediate need for a "subsequent patch" right now, is there?
Thanks for persevering. This analogy was very helpful to me. :thumbs up:

[Steve Geddes]

Steve, the advice and the analogies only work if you eitehr a) 'test' FG after you update and/or b) check the forums for reported update issues, before your next game session.

If after you update you don't touch FG until you go to start up for your next session then you are right in thinking their is little difference.
Cheers. I guess the amount of testing is a little daunting - take the Armor class issue with traveller mentioned above.

I do load it all up and do a bit of a “dry run” before each session (preloading everything I think I’ll need into the hotkeys down the bottom, checking all the maps and masks are set right and so forth). But I wouldn’t have thought I’d need to check quite so extensively.

I’m kind of getting there though, so thanks for everyone who posted explanations here. I appreciate this thread is probably not of much value to anyone except me!

(Fwiw, I think a “newbie forum” would be a good idea. I browse the threads here, but I’m just as likely to run into someone asking about writing their own extensions as someone sharing my issues with learning the basics. Presumably I’m at the low end of computer literacy, but there must be other people who struggle with the basics who might also benefit from reading some elementary threads without risk of bumping into the more highbrow stuff?)