LOS and light sources?!

[Weissrolf]

Hello,

I would like this to be clarified. Does the new LOS features only work for obstructions (walls)? Does it not include any light-sources (day/night, lantern, torch, spell) and PC vision features (darkvision, low-light vision)?

[tantauralus]

I am not a employee of SW, but there have been clarifications on this on mutiple other threads in the playtest subforum.

as of now LOS only considers obstrutions (Walls, Doors, Terrain) the GM added to the map.
as of now there is neither a limitation of LOS in regards of light sources and/or vision features.
as of now a limitation of LOS in regards of light sources and/or vision features will not be included in the initial realease of FGU.
as of now a limitation of LOS in regards of light sources and/or vision features is to be included in a future update past the initial FGU release.

[Weissrolf]

So currently LOS only replaces one work (manual removal of fog-of-war) with another (having to draw LOS lines)?! Later more LOS ready products will be ready, which then only replaces manual fog-of-war removal? Much later (maybe) it will introduce sight limitations?

I am a bit struggling here. Except for the lobby, what are the incentives - aka new/improved features - to upgrade from Classic to Unity at this point (in time) then?

[Zacchaeus]

So currently LOS only replaces one work (manual removal of fog-of-war) with another (having to draw LOS lines)?! Later more LOS ready products will be ready, which then only replaces manual fog-of-war removal? Much later (maybe) it will introduce sight limitations?

I am a bit struggling here. Except for the lobby, what are the incentives - aka new/improved features - to upgrade from Classic to Unity at this point (in time) then?

Better memory management, the ability to make maps inside of FG, easier network connection and Line of Sight.

[Weissrolf]

Better memory management
I assume that you mean 64-bit memory management when you say "better"? Because currently FGU needs more memory to do the same thing, on top of causing higher CPU load. The latter of which seems at least partially be caused by setting Windows timer resolution down to 1 ms from its default of 15.625 ms (causing the high "power usage" reading in the below screenshot, aka increasing CPU clock-rate to maximum during "idle").

Here FGU and Classic sit idle after loading the 5E Sample campaign and checking which modules were loaded (same for both). FGU takes a lot longer to load the campaign with accompanying CPU load, uses more CPU load while idle and uses considerable more memory (not a practical problem on my system).

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32970&d=1585822117
32970



the ability to make maps inside of FG
This sounds nice and useful for all those people who create their own adventures. Personally I am using bought modules or import maps.


easier network connection and Line of Sight.
Which are the two things I mentioned before, the lobby and LOS for walls sparing us the extra steps to manually remove fog-of-war (currently at the cost of manually setting LOS walls).

Originally I thought that I would upgrade to Unity because of LOS, but without light sources and vision automation it became far less attractive. I just took it for granted that this would be included as a catch up to free MapTools and paid Roll20.

[Kelrugem]

I assume that you mean 64-bit memory management when you say "better"? Because currently FGU needs more memory to do the same thing, on top of causing higher CPU load. The latter of which seems at least partially be caused by setting Windows timer resolution down to 1 ms from its default of 15.625 ms (causing the high "power usage" reading in the below screenshot, aka increasing CPU clock-rate to maximum during "idle").

Here FGU and Classic sit idle after loading the 5E Sample campaign and checking which modules were loaded (same for both). FGU takes a lot longer to load the campaign with accompanying CPU load, uses more CPU load while idle and uses considerable more memory (not a practical problem on my system).

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32970&d=1585822117
32970



This sounds nice and useful for all those people who create their own adventures. Personally I am using bought modules or import maps.


Which are the two things I mentioned before, the lobby and LOS for walls sparing us the extra steps to manually remove fog-of-war (currently at the cost of manually setting LOS walls).

Originally I thought that I would upgrade to Unity because of LOS, but without light sources and vision automation it became far less attractive. I just took it for granted that this would be included as a catch up to free MapTools and paid Roll20.

First of all, performance was not yet looked at in the playtest :) We do not certainly know yet how the CPU usage etc. will be at the end; moreover, the asset window got changed and improved, also with respect to memory (it is only cached when you actually start to use it in a map etc., such that you can have them loaded in the assets without any worries)

Second, the mapping tools can also be used while playing on official modules, adding Fx, blood splatter and spell tokens as assets without token stacking issues, impromptu mapping of things like an ice or fire wall and so on :)

And, last but not least, the development of FGU does not suddenly stop just because FGU got released :) FGU is basically also the preparation of a new engine for FG allowing implementing many new features which are not really possible in FGC, like the mentioned dynamic lighting :)

(also new dice macros by the way which was wished for by many users)

[LordEntrails]

The primary purpose of rebuilding FG to a new engine is to enable a couple of key features up front (64 bit architecture, IPv6 support, and native Mac/LINUX builds) and then the ability to be on a new platform that will allow faster feature development in the future.

Line of Sight, map making, and dice strings are just bonus stuff. Flash to help distinguish the two in a marketing sense.

What you see in FGU is not what you will see in 2, 6, 12, or 50 months. By moving to the platform, it gives the SmiteWorks team the ability to grow FG beyond the limits of its previous architecture. By moving to Unity it allows them to purchase or outsource aspects of the platform (such as networking, etc) so they don't have to write and maintain the basic building blocks of the program.

[Weissrolf]

I asked for a clarification and got a clarification. Thank you. Buying a product on the basis of promised features in the future is quite a leap of faith. We will see.

[Valatar]

So currently LOS only replaces one work (manual removal of fog-of-war) with another (having to draw LOS lines)?! Later more LOS ready products will be ready, which then only replaces manual fog-of-war removal? Much later (maybe) it will introduce sight limitations?

I am a bit struggling here. Except for the lobby, what are the incentives - aka new/improved features - to upgrade from Classic to Unity at this point (in time) then?

While I agree that, from a GM time cost perspective, doing the LOS pre-game vs clearing masking in-game is about a wash, my personal experience is that having to clear masked areas in the middle of a game is rather disruptive to the flow. Okay, you go around the corner, now hold on... click click click click. Oh, you walked past this door ... click click click click. Being able to have the work done before the game saves time where it counts. It also has some side-benefits like being able to click on an NPC and see its LOS to determine what it's able to see at a given moment.

That said, I and I think everyone else are also eagerly awaiting light sources and LOS range determined by a token's vision in certain lighting. The developers have been making positive noises about implementing those features, so hopefully they won't be long after release.

[Zacchaeus]

Depending on what modules you are using the LoS will be built in for you.

[fetjesus]

I agree, I have bought unity and supported the Kickstarter. But I thought at the moment that the LOS which was the dealbreaker for me would be at least on par with roll20. Also I can't see a when, when this extended functionality is going to be implemented. This was my first kickstarter, and well I am going to be a lot more careful next time. Better to wait and see the result.

But, LOS is still cool, at least if you remove the party vision, so that my players only see what their own specific player see.

[YAKO SOMEDAKY]

I am a fan of Fantasy Grounds, but the new platforms are bringing what Fantasy Grounds should bring, dynamic lighting, independence with tokens, the possibility to own and control NPCs for players, the ability to master shared, sounds on the platform itself, personalization of data, triggers for traps and tests, such as tests to unlock a door, animation ... friendly interface.
As I said I am an appreciator and I love the tool, but we have to think that the new players and even masters want something more intuitive and that the new players and masters are the generation and these things that I mentioned are merely audio visual, but this is the style of the new generation, of course I place my hope that everything that was mentioned may one day exist at FGU, because the hopes placed on it are and have always been HUGE and I hope that everything I mentioned that the other platforms have, have in it.
I'm not interested in changing platforms, but in the future I want to be able to have resources to say ... wow, how cool is yours to do it, mine too!
In the future to see and say ours, I never saw you say or do anything with that wonderful platform of yours, but mine continues to work and offering me more improvements, more official systems and a wonderful community every day!
Sorry for this mega text and thanks for everything you always do and do to keep the RPG alive!

[Tuleen Donai]

The primary purpose of rebuilding FG to a new engine is to enable a couple of key features up front (64 bit architecture, IPv6 support, and native Mac/LINUX builds) and then the ability to be on a new platform that will allow faster feature development in the future.

Line of Sight, map making, and dice strings are just bonus stuff. Flash to help distinguish the two in a marketing sense.

What you see in FGU is not what you will see in 2, 6, 12, or 50 months. By moving to the platform, it gives the SmiteWorks team the ability to grow FG beyond the limits of its previous architecture. By moving to Unity it allows them to purchase or outsource aspects of the platform (such as networking, etc) so they don't have to write and maintain the basic building blocks of the program.


Thank you for stating this, as I was a bit confused by your decision to move to Unity. Your goals make a lot of sense.


For those of you commenting on memory usage and CPU load, I've seen this before with other applications (especially on MAC OS X and Windows.) Apple tried creating a Universal Binary, that would run on BOTH PPC and Intel based platforms, for a time. Microsoft did something similar when moving Windows from 32-bit to 64-bit, and they still do this to a certain extent with Compatibility Mode. Typically, in order to do this, you need more resources like memory and CPU performance.

Applications that are designed to be multi-platform, are also often difficult to optimize, because those optimizations have to be portable to the other platforms you are supporting. Something that optimizes on Windows may not on MAC OS X. You either have to have separate code for each platform, which adds complexity, or you can end up losing the benefits of targeting multiple platforms.

An example of this (granted these are OSs) is when Microsoft tried supporting a new Intel architecture (Itanium or ARM) in Windows in addition to maintaining compatibility with x86. They finally ended up abandoning that strategy. Linux and BSD Unix, as OSs, were designed to be multi-platform from the early stages, which is why - for the most part - they work. This generally runs true for application development as well when you try and support multiple platforms with the same code base.

[LordEntrails]

Thank you for stating this, as I was a bit confused by your decision to move to Unity. Your goals make a lot of sense.
Note, I do not work for SmiteWorks. I'm just a user of Fantasy Grounds like you :)