Campaign Safety Tools, Does FG Have Them?

[Minty23185Fresh]

A few of the podcasts I listen to have recently been discussing the availability of “safety tools” to help prevent campaign play from wandering off into content or role playing that players find offensive or unacceptable. Are there any such tools available to Fantasy Grounds? Either inherently or as an extension? (I’ve looked but failed to find them.) Thanks in advance.

[Zacchaeus]

Not entirely sure what that would consist of. I can’t think of a way you can stop people saying things using an extension. I may perhaps be misunderstanding what is meant by safety tools.

[LordEntrails]

Nothing that I have heard or seen talk of. But, this questions was recently asked for Roll20 on Reddit. The answers there may be of some help.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Roll20/comments/en7z26/how_does_roll20_support_safety_tools/

In short, it seems to come down to using specific tokens that the players can control or place. Not sure how that would work very well though if people aren't looking.

[Minty23185Fresh]

Also can Google TTRPG Safety Toolkit.

I was hooping for the big red X card implementation.

[Halaku]

You could use something like voicemod to play a buzzer sound effect with a keyboard shortcut.
I would be hesitant to rely on a visual clue as in my experience it is very easy for players to miss those things, if they have other windows open for example.

[Talyn]

I'm kinda shocked no one has done an X Card extension yet. It's also 2020 and that's probably something that should be built into CoreRPG, honestly.

[LordEntrails]

I'm kinda shocked no one has done an X Card extension yet. It's also 2020 and that's probably something that should be built into CoreRPG, honestly.
Well, I would not expect such. This is the first time this has even been discussed on the forum and it is not on the Wishlist, so why would SmiteWorks even think it would be important to their customer base? It may be important to the gaming community, but until we (the customers) state the importance of it to us, we shouldn't expect them to be aware of such value.

So, if it's important to someone, they should add it to the wishlist :)

(And just to be clear, I'm not opposed to such, but I have no use or value in such for my groups. But, I do recognize I might be ignorant of some aspect of my games.)

[Andraax]

I play with people who are adults. If someone goes out of bounds, they get a warning, if they persist, they get kicked out of the group. (I've only kicked out 2 players in like 5 decades of gaming.)

[Art Wendorf]

I'm kinda shocked no one has done an X Card extension yet. It's also 2020 and that's probably something that should be built into CoreRPG, honestly.(Honest question. Not asking just to be argumentative.) Why? Why would there need to be one? Why is it shocking there isn't one? What good would it do? My self, I'm a bit baffled that anyone thinks that it is a necessary item, rather than a nice-to-have item.

This isn't like a F2F game where you'd be vulnerable to physical/mental consequences either as the perpetrator or the target. It would accomplish little that a simple "Don't do that!" wouldn't. My understanding (though I admit that it's sketchy) is that the X Card and such at con games is that the person needs a safe outlet because they're afraid of physical or psychological damage/attacks that they can't easily escape from. That ability to corner someone doesn't exist in the VTT arena.

When a VTT game veers into territory I don't approve of, I just say something (which has happened, thankfully, only once). If it were to have continued, I'd have just logged out and gone to watch a movie. Secure in the fact that I am beyond the reach of those I disapproved of.

[JohnD]

I'm with Andraax. Since 1979 I've only ever had to kick 2 people out. One of those was in FG. A lot of this I think depends on the age of who you game with.

But if there's people who want it, I'm sure someone will make an extension... and who ever wants to use can, and those who don't shouldn't have it forced upon them.

[Minty23185Fresh]

Let’s just say, theoretically, I am the victim of some sort of abuse. And it seems to me as though some role playing might head in that direction. It is making me uncomfortable. And to admit to such even in a virtual environment compounds my anxiety. An anonymous way to get the DMs attention, might be helpful.

All I really need to know is if the tool exists for FG. My question has been answered. Thanks all. Should I find the time, I’ll make the extension.

[notrealdan]

I have to agree with Minty. I'm no expert on this, but I would welcome a tool that helps make these situations easier to deal with.

It's not always obvious or clear when there's a problem for someone else, and it can be VERY difficult to speak up when there is a situation that calls for it. This isn't just about identifying generally-troublesome player behavior, but also about when a topic comes up that is troublesome for someone. That can be very different for different people and often goes unnoticed by the majority of the group.

When DM'ing, I've often been oblivious to obvious cues from players about even simple things, like the need for a bio-break. I would not be happy to have someone drop out of a game because they were uncomfortable with part of the game and I hadn't noticed. I'd rather know sooner and keep a friend.

[Andraax]

Like I said, I play with adults. If someone has an issue, they can speak up, either during the session or between game sessions. That's what being an adult is.

[JohnD]

Anyone can already send a private message to the DM or via whatever voice chat program is being used. But as I said, if someone wants to make an extension for use and a DM wants to enable it, well, your game your decision.

Personally I'd hope that a player would reach out and chat with me or have a sidebar if there's a issue.

[notrealdan]

That’s not always possible in the moment, when it matters, before harm is done. Also, a chat/whisper to the DM would not be anonymous.

[notrealdan]

Like I said, I play with adults. If someone has an issue, they can speak up, either during the session or between game sessions. That's what being an adult is.

What about FG requires you to be an adult? Last I checked, young people play games, too.

[Andraax]

What about FG requires you to be an adult? Last I checked, young people play games, too.

Like I said, *I* play with adults. I don't have the time nor inclination to deal with immature players.

[notrealdan]

Like I said, *I* play with adults. I don't have the time nor inclination to deal with immature players.

Ok, but you seem to be objecting to the idea of the features being discussed. If so, what exactly would the existence of these features take away from your game?

If you’re not objecting to the features, great, but then your point seems to be that anyone who does want or need these isn’t “an adult.” I hope that’s not your point, as that could come across as quite insulting.

[Andraax]

Ok, but you seem to be objecting to the idea of the features being discussed. If so, what exactly would the existence of these features take away from your game?

Nope, just pointing out that I have no use for them, nor would I play with anyone who thought they were needed. I play with adults who discuss problems, not people who are too immature to give voice to their concerns.

[notrealdan]

Nope, just pointing out that I have no use for them, nor would I play with anyone who thought they were needed. I play with adults who discuss problems, not people who are too immature to give voice to their concerns.

It’s not a matter of maturity at all. I hope you take the time to educate yourself on the topic.

[LordEntrails]

I look forward to the creation of the extension. It will only add to the value of FG and this community.

[Minty23185Fresh]

A more concrete example might serve to separate the men from the boys, so to speak.
Let’s just assume that a player has PTSD from being a POW in Vietnam. Subjected to tortures beyond imagination (I would hope).

This “non-adult” sitting at the table may have no wishes to relive torture in any forum. And may not want to even share them nor believe anyone, including a DM, has any right to hear about them.

Nipping a graphic torture scene in the bud seems a reasonable and adult thing to do, as least in my mind.

(Oops. Sorry. The use of “you” tends to be accusatory - edited.)

[epithet]

I've played with adults and with kids (and, if the rumors are to be believed, I was a kid once myself.) If someone can't keep himself from getting too far into the grizzly details in a campaign with kids, he simply needs a talking-to and perhaps an univite if he can't get with the program. If someone has an issue he can't talk about, he needs to make people aware of that. If the group doesn't collectively agree to avoid the issue, well... the player with a problem can leave the group. This is a game, participation is not mandatory.

If it is so difficult for you to engage with your fellow players to the point that you can't make people aware of potentially serious issues or trauma that you're dealing with, then a TTRPG kind of social game might not be your thing--or might be a thing that you introduce to your support group in a therapeutic context.

Like chess, Clue, or darts, tabletop RPGs are not social frameworks. These are activities that social groups engage in, and might constitute a common interest that brings a group of people together. Expecting the RPG or the virtual tabletop to handle your social matters is unrealistic and counterproductive.

[Minty23185Fresh]

Does one always know what’s going to bother one beforehand? I might be fine with mashing a bunch of ogre children, but not know until presented with it as the party visits the puppy mill we start to do the same to a bunch of brown eyed puppies that that is over the top.

I realize this is a ludicrous example, all I’m saying is, I might not know until I know, and that’s hard to discuss beforehand.

The safety tool is just a tool, and I fall back on, I think it was in AVP, “...it’s better to have one and not need it than need one and not have it...” :)

[notrealdan]

A more concrete example might serve to separate the men from the boys, so to speak.
Let’s just assume that a player has PTSD from being a POW in Vietnam. Subjected to tortures beyond imagination (I would hope).

This “non-adult” sitting at the table may have no wishes to relive torture in any forum. And may not want to even share them nor believe anyone, including a DM, has any right to hear about them.

Nipping a graphic torture scene in the bud seems a reasonable and adult thing to do, as least in my mind.

(Oops. Sorry. The use of “you” tends to be accusatory - edited.)

I'd be happy to have such a "non-adult" as a player.

[Art Wendorf]

Oh, ok. I was under the impression that the X Card or whatever was not anonymous in F2F games (cons and such). Thus I assumed that a comparable item in FG would not be either.

Look, I'm not against such a thing existing in FG. I'm just wasn't seeing (obviously) where the communication structure in FG or other Chat system adds anything. UNLESS the person wants to remain anonymous. So I can see where such a thing might be helpful.

Just because I wouldn't feel inclined to use such a thing in my games is no reason for such a thing to not exist. I hope such a thing comes about for those who need it.

[Andraax]

As a general point - since the GM's computer hosts the game, there is no possibility of guaranteeing anonymity from the GM. While any extension, or even code built into a ruleset like CoreRPG, might not announce who is sending the "complaint", it would be trivial on the GM's side to hack the extension to announce the person making the report. After all, the GM's computer manages all the communication, so it always knows where something originated from.

And for the examples given - there would not need to be a "detailed" discussion of what would trigger someone, nor a need to discuss what caused your distress. Just a simple comment like "please avoid rape scenes because I don't like them" or "please don't detail torture scenes because they cause me problems" or similar is all that is needed.

[Kelrugem]

Nope, just pointing out that I have no use for them, nor would I play with anyone who thought they were needed. I play with adults who discuss problems, not people who are too immature to give voice to their concerns.

Then, sorry to say this, you do not have any idea or clue about what people have to face when they suffer from things like anxiety. This has nothing to do with maturity at all. To say that these people are not adults is a dangerous and exclusive language and one of many reasons why there are sadly so many dangerous stigmata about mental illnesses.

The social in "social tabletop games" also means to create inclusive environments for those who have to face things like anxiety by avoiding triggers for example. (with trigger I especially mean triggers as defined in psychology which can be really dangerous and exhausting). A trigger can already mean to speak about that subject and to show one's problems with some specific subject (especially because we speak here about FG where it is possible to play with people one never met before; you can not expect that everyone speaks with everyone about everything. But the arguments still also hold for games with friends)

(Moreover, I would tend to say that people who suffer from things like anxiety are in general more mature than the ones who claim that peoples with anxiety are not an "adult", especially because the former knows what anxiety means and such people tend to create more inclusive environments etc.. At least your statement shows a lot but not maturity or education with respect to this subject)

PS: Anxiety is just an example here, there are sadly many more causes

PPS: Sorry for the answer but it is in my opinion important to stand up in such subjects

[Andraax]

Then, sorry to say this, you do not have any idea or clue about what people have to face when they suffer from things like anxiety. This has nothing to do with maturity at all. To say that these people are not adults is a dangerous and exclusive language and one of many reasons why there are sadly so many dangerous stigmata about mental illnesses.

I did not say that people suffering from anxiety or PTSD are immature - perhaps you should go back and read what I said rather than making up things and attributing them to me. I said that people who are incapable of discussing things like adults are immature.

Perhaps people who cannot articulate their thoughts regarding subjects which bother them are not good candidates for a social activity that requires players to discuss things. A purely anonymous online game might be more suited to their abilities, not one that is usually a collaborative effort among friends.

[notrealdan]

As a general point - since the GM's computer hosts the game, there is no possibility of guaranteeing anonymity from the GM. While any extension, or even code built into a ruleset like CoreRPG, might not announce who is sending the "complaint", it would be trivial on the GM's side to hack the extension to announce the person making the report. After all, the GM's computer manages all the communication, so it always knows where something originated from.

And for the examples given - there would not need to be a "detailed" discussion of what would trigger someone, nor a need to discuss what caused your distress. Just a simple comment like "please avoid rape scenes because I don't like them" or "please don't detail torture scenes because they cause me problems" or similar is all that is needed.

Yes, it would be possible to see the communication and determine the source if one tried hard enough. Since FG's communication isn't encrypted, a simple packet capture would probably be enough. But if a GM is actively hacking communication that is expected to be anonymous and private, that would be actively hostile. Thankfully, I doubt anyone would do that. Why would they? I would not consider this possibility a reason not to have this feature available.

I agree that some kind of discussion can (and in most cases, should) happen, preferably during a "session zero" but as I understand it it's sometimes the case that one doesn't know what will trigger them until they see it's about to happen. It's also true that people often do not want to be labelled as "the one who got raped" for example, and so they may not wish to bring it up with the group or even with the GM in private, for fear that those simple comments turn into rumors.

[Andraax]

I agree that some kind of discussion can (and in most cases, should) happen, preferably during a "session zero" but as I understand it it's sometimes the case that one doesn't know what will trigger them until they see it's about to happen. It's also true that people often do not want to be labelled as "the one who got raped" for example, and so they may not wish to bring it up with the group or even with the GM in private, for fear that those simple comments turn into rumors.

As I said, there is no need to discuss the cause for your insecurity. *I* don't like rape scenes in games, and I'm willing to say that. That doesn't mean that I've been raped. And if a game session is heading in a direction that will trigger a person, they can just say something like"I don't like where this is headed". You people are all acting like I'm saying that people need to reveal deep, dark secrets before they can be allowed to play - I'm not saying anything of the sort. It's just that RPGs are *social* games, which means that there will be *social interaction*. If you can't interact socially, then perhaps it's not the game for you.

And adults shouldn't be spreading rumors.

[damned]

Andraax i think you have stopped adding any value to this conversation.
What is being discussed is a tool for others not fr you.

[Talyn]

(Honest question. Not asking just to be argumentative.) Why? Why would there need to be one? Why is it shocking there isn't one? What good would it do? My self, I'm a bit baffled that anyone thinks that it is a necessary item, rather than a nice-to-have item.

It's shocking (to me) because, as I said, it's now 2020 and this is not exactly brand-new territory we're discussing. Yes, I absolutely think an X Card (or whatever) extension would be "nice."

Why should it be a CoreRPG feature (thereby being available to all rulesets which layer over CoreRPG)? Because it's 2020 and it would demonstrate that SmiteWorks has awareness of the current goings-on out there in real life. No one is ever "forced" to use any other obscure feature, but when they suddenly need them, oooh it's the greatest thing since sliced pizza! So exactly what harm would it create by having a safety tool or few for those who choose to use them, VTT or IRL?

Now, specific to Fantasy Grounds, here's my issue with it being limited to an extension: FG is a client-server application. Everything must run on the GMs server, including all extensions. I am of the opinion that the GMs most likely to dip into "unsafe" (for lack of a better phrase) territory are also the ones who specifically would not install an X Card extension. At least if it's built-in, players have something at their disposal to draw attention and make it known that things need to stop and let's have a conversation about this going forward so that "screw this noise, *disconnect*" isn't the only solution. The tool is also available if it's a random player who suddenly veers way off into upsetting territory no one else expected. There is also a huge section of the FG userbase who are not forum members, and have no clue about extensions.

We, as a community, since I've been here pride ourselves on how welcoming and helpful we are, but ever notice how the majority of the technobabble goes into "how do I automate more DAMAGE!!!!" and not a single damn thing about "how can we be supportive of the people behind those 3D dice?" That's all I'm saying.

[damned]

It's shocking (to me) because, as I said, it's now 2020 and this is not exactly brand-new territory we're discussing. Yes, I absolutely think an X Card (or whatever) extension would be "nice."

Why should it be a CoreRPG feature (thereby being available to all rulesets which layer over CoreRPG)? Because it's 2020 and it would demonstrate that SmiteWorks has awareness of the current goings-on out there in real life. No one is ever "forced" to use any other obscure feature, but when they suddenly need them, oooh it's the greatest thing since sliced pizza! So exactly what harm would it create by having a safety tool or few for those who choose to use them, VTT or IRL?

On the flip side Talyn this is the first time Ive ever seen it mentioned here.
So for it not to be a core feature is pretty understandable on that metric.

[LordEntrails]

So, let's see how helpful we can be.

If such a function were implemented, how would it be realized? Would this only be notification to the GM that some player feels a line has been crossed? Would their be a yellow and red light system? Or just red? Would the notification only be to the GM or would it go to all players? Would the GM be able to trigger this alert? What would the alert look like? Something in the chat? Something in the middle of the application window on top of all the other window classes? Would their be an audible component? How long would it be up for? 5 second or until each person dismisses it? Or would only the GM or the person who triggered it be able to dismiss it? Would it be anonymous or would the GM know who triggered it or would everyone? How would this work in a face-to-face game?

[damned]

off the cuff -

1. it should be anonymous
2. it should be very visible
3. i dont know if you need gradients - a line is crossed/blurred use the tool
3. it should go to everyone - as adults everyone can see the alert, take a breath, adjust the story and move forward. it doesnt even need to be discussed unless the person triggering the notification wants to raise it
4. it should require each person to have to close/acknowledge the alert
5. maybe when you press it you should be presented with some information on how to handle/address uncomfortable situations in the group with the option to send alert or just ok and return to the game perhaps with some ideas on how to steer the group to safety without the big alert
6. in a group where you are all comfortable with each other you might just come right out and start the conversation - "im not comfortable with this. can we change direction."
7. in the event you have someone immature spamming the button... i dont know...

in my experience - in a face to face game you get a card and you just toss it into the middle and the GM will roll the story back and move in a different direction

[JohnD]

8. It should be an option that the GM can choose to enable or disable.

Maybe this would be one of the standard things mentioned in LFG or LFDM posts - whether the person wants this functionality enabled or disabled or doesn't care one way or the other.

[Talyn]

On the flip side Talyn this is the first time Ive ever seen it mentioned here.
So for it not to be a core feature is pretty understandable on that metric.

That specifically goes back to my "awareness" comment, though. Rather than being heads down into Lua scripting more dice rolls and damage, some consideration of more social features for a platform based purely around a social hobby just demonstrates a lack of it. And that goes for all us wannabe coders here on the forums too.

[damned]

That specifically goes back to my "awareness" comment, though. Rather than being heads down into Lua scripting more dice rolls and damage, some consideration of more social features for a platform based purely around a social hobby just demonstrates a lack of it. And that goes for all us wannabe coders here on the forums too.

Not really.
This is something that effects a small proportion of the population.
It effects a small proportion of groups.
If you are never exposed to something you may never be aware of its existence let alone if there is a need.
I have zero interest - let alone time - to go out and try to learn of the existence of all the things that I am unaware of.
Do you go and learn all about all the various medical conditions before you encounter someone with it that impacts on you in some way?
When someone you live with comes back and says I have this condition xyz then you go and learn about it and make some adjustments.

[Andraax]

Andraax i think you have stopped adding any value to this conversation.

https://s3.silent-tower.org/images/Unsaid.jpg

[LordEntrails]

That specifically goes back to my "awareness" comment, though. Rather than being heads down into Lua scripting more dice rolls and damage, some consideration of more social features for a platform based purely around a social hobby just demonstrates a lack of it. And that goes for all us wannabe coders here on the forums too.
Let's not beat on SmiteWorks for not doing something that until today was never asked of them to do.

These "its 2020" approach assumes that these Safety Tools, and the discussion in the RPG community, have been around for so long that they should just assumed to be common. But that's not true.

A Google search gives me the oldest mention of RPG Safety Tools in 2014, on a LARP website, Leaving Mundania (https://leavingmundania.com/2014/02/27/primer-safety-in-roleplaying-games/). I don't find it on any of the major RPG sites until an article on Gnome Stew (https://gnomestew.com/why-safety-tools-are-important-to-me/) in March 2018. Though much harder to find, it appears that the major conventions mostly did not adopt official policies on these types of things until 2019 (though I suspect I'm wrong on this by a year or so). And, again, if these tools were so important in the VTT space, then how come until this week I've never heard them mentioned on either of the two largest VTTs? i.e. Not until this thread for FG and a Reddit post this week for Roll20.

Anyways, that's the past. So, for those that feel this is important, put it on the Wishlist (https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/). If you can't add it to the official place for making feature requests for FG, then it would appear not to be very important to you.

Edit: I see my tone of voice could easily be misconstrued here. I don't mean this as an attack on Talyn or anyone else. And I intend for it to be as neutral and non-defensive as possible. Let's all make sure we try and keep this to a friendly discussion. And, as always, assume the other posters always intend such with their posts. It's easy to lose connotation and assume other wise on a forum. Conveying such nuisance is tough on a forum.

[Art Wendorf]

It's shocking (to me) because, as I said, it's now 2020 and this is not exactly brand-new territory we're discussing.Yes. Yes, it is when compared to the lifespan of the RPG hobby. I hadn't even heard of the X Card until last year. None of my gaming friends knew what I was talking about. This is not something that has been brewing in the back ground for 30 years. So please, "it's 2020 fer crying out loud" doesn't add anything to the conversation. This is the first thread I've seen on these boards that have ever brought it up.


Yes, I absolutely think an X Card (or whatever) extension would be "nice."Then why haven't you made one or lead a group of like-minded individuals to do so in the years prior to this one? Why did you wait until "2020" to bring it up? You've been a member of Fantasy Grounds Forum since 2016.Most of the really good rulesets and extensions were community made first.


Why should it be a CoreRPG feature (thereby being available to all rulesets which layer over CoreRPG)? Because it's 2020 and it would demonstrate that SmiteWorks has awareness of the current goings-on out there in real life. Um, I deal with real life every day and, as I stated upstream, I only heard about the X Card and its ilk last year. And only because I'm a gaming geek who frequents gaming forums, unlike probably 95% of the gamers out there. I think it's not as pervasive in the consciousness of the gaming public as you seem to believe.

Now that the subjects been breached, I'm sure someone will come up with something. Maybe. Time is finite and there are only so many workhours in a day.

To expect Smiteworks to jump on everything that rears its head is expecting a lot from a small company. Especially something that, apparently, isn't even on the wish list. Instead, it is reasonable to assume that they're gonna work on the features that have actually been, um, asked for. Don't ya think?

You obviously feel very passionate about this. I honestly think that is commendable. Great even. But treating every one who questions it as if they are attacking the idea isn't gonna win any converts. Just the opposite, really.

[Art Wendorf]

And, quite frankly, you sticking my nice in quotations marks reads as if you think I'm some kind of knuckle-dragging mouth-breather. You might not have meant it that way but it reads as insulting and condescending. It automatically makes me resistant to the idea where I wasn't feeling that way before.

It is a nice-to-have feature. Not a critical or a performance feature as FG runs perfectly well without it and has since at least 2004 when I first demoed FG (though there were a lot of other issues with FG at that time). I think it would be a good feature as long as it's an optional feature. But I wouldn't want a developer pulled off of Unity or any other performance feature to work on it.

It's also something that in a game advertisement that would make me just keep on going past it. I'm not sure why that is though. Maybe because it feels as if there has to be a feature that just says: "Be excellent with everyone" that that group is going to be inconsistent and problematic from a continuity and personality point of view. I know that that is probably not the case, but it just makes me feel that way.

I'm sure that would change though the more I got used to seeing it.

[Moon Wizard]

Seems like their are some strong feelings on this topic; and the debate has been edgy in some cases. So, I’m going to close the thread for now, as I think the cases have been expressed.

I think it would be a great extension idea (which is exactly what extensions are for).

Regards,
JPG