I guess we won't be seeing WotC FantasyGrounds data then

[sunbeam60]

https://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=12

Basically, WotC cancelled their agreement with CMP about putting WotC content into various formats (one of them being FantasyGrounds).

Bah.

[richvalle]

Well, that sucks. I wonder what WoTC is doing that effects this. "Because of Future Product Considerations."...?

rv

[Snikle]

I think they are developing a similar program, I mean if I was then, I would. Obviously this market is new and growing, if they could create their own program, controlling all their data, undoubtedly the d20 masses would fall upon it like a deck of many things.
Course, I am just guessing here....

[Oberoten]

Ged? May I remind that I gave you the E-mail to the CEO of Atlas-Games earlier? :) *now has mental images of FG pre-loaded with ArsMagica. ;) *

[Griogre]

I think they are developing a similar program, I mean if I was then, I would. Obviously this market is new and growing, if they could create their own program, controlling all their data, undoubtedly the d20 masses would fall upon it like a deck of many things.
Course, I am just guessing here....
I think you are correct though I doubt the market is new and growing - I'm guessing tired and fragmented. The original version of eTools was horrible and WotC got very little from it I think. We will see if the next version is any better. Depends on who develops for them. The other explenation was 4th ed could be getting near. WotC has promised a year lead into it if/when it happens.

The same post also mentioned you only have until the end of the month to get the FG stuff from Code Monkey before they have to pull it so if you want to get the Sunless Citidel and Forge of Fury modules you need to do so.

[Yenooc]

Here's a newbie question :confused: prompted by this discussion: How are CMP downloads used with Fantasy Grounds? Or are they?

I'd like to check one out, but I'd first like to know whether it is an independent program or one with files that can be used in a regular FG campaign.

Bottom line: I have no idea what form and format the CMP downloads (The Sunless Citadel, for example) come in. And if they can't be integrated into FG as campaigns, how are they used to game over the internet?

[Griogre]

Yenooc, the full version of Fantasy Grounds allows you to make "modules". "Modules" are exported campaigns that can be imported as a module by another campaign. This can be confusing because the term has a rpg meaning and in this case a techincal meaning to FG.

If you have the full version of FG then you can buy the Code Monkey modules which have the 3.0 modules converted to 3.5. and run them.

[kalmarjan]

Tis a terrible thing indeed...

The rumors of a 4th edition are troubling as well...

Sandeman

[Griogre]

The rumors of a 4th edition are troubling as well...
Not sure I believe this but the timing could be right. With WotC promising a 1 year lead notice the time frame would fit because a Christmas release would make sense thus one year before such a release would be in December. I mention this but honestly a Thanksgiving Release might make make even more sense.

[sunbeam60]

Seriously, I really don't feel the need for a 4.0. I know this is slightly off-topic, but I just don't see the need for it.

I hardly saw the need for 3.5, but there were some nice corrections and fixes to how things worked (although it was more like 3.1). The need for third edition 3.0 was apparent. Second edition was a mess. Third edition wasn't.

What's so wrong with 3.5 that WotC need to fix it? My guess is that the primary reason for 4.0 would be money. I would not be buying it.

[Griogre]

I don't really feel much one way or the other. It a 4.0 were to show up I would only be interested if it simplified the rules. I don't mind complicated rules but only if they give me a clear benifit - I don't really see that in 3.x. I find the combat rules needlessly complex - ie why the opposed rolls with grapple, bull rush, etc? Why not just hitting the target AC as normal like you do when you just swing at a monster? Why the small and medium size weapons? Sure, I guess its a little more "real" - but how important is this in a game where you fight dragons? What are you getting out of it aside from a 30% chance a generated armor or weapon is going to be too small for most characters?

[richvalle]

Well...

I really like the weapon sizes. I've played a few halflings including once a hafling fighter. I was alwasy 'stuck' swinging a shortsword.

Then weapons sizes came along and it was like a light going off in my head... I can swing other weapons! Greatswords, rapiers, bastard swords, maces... whatever! NOW I could be a halfling fighter just as different from another hafling fighter as two human/medium sized fighters could be. Its GREAT! :)

I'm undesided about a 4.0 version of Dnd. I'm pretty heavly invested into 3.5 right now. 4.0 would have to be some fantastic rules for me to switch. I expect I would not switch when it first comes out but wait and see what the buzz says. Eventually I'd start to pick up the books but not till it had been out for a while.

rv

[Griogre]

We are pretty much on the same page really as far as 4.0. That is almost exactly what I would do.

On the weapon size thing, I wouldn't be so against it except they never changed the class requirement weapon limitations. Thus small characters who were not fighters got screwed. IE the Halfling or Gnome Rogue has to use a Small Shortsword or 1d4 instead of a 1d6 weapon. This was what was too much for me. Small races had always been one die behind the medium races - now they dropped two die sizes for damage. The 3.0 rules were good enough for me. There a Halfling could use a Long Sword Two Handed - and what was more common a weapon than a Long Sword? The size effect of treasure fragmentation put the nail in the coffin for me on using the 3.5 weapon size rules. :p

[Snikle]

I have to say that I am no big fan of D&D anymore, however, my eyes had not seen this insane rule, my god what a freaking waste of paper. REASON says that a smaller fighter would do less damage than a larger fighter, duh. I point a .22 at you it does less damage than a .50cal. It makes complete sense.
Wait, let me guess the PC that is affecting the rest of the world today leaking into D&D....the little halflings complained that they are not as strong a front line fighter as a human??? DUH.

I am so glad I no longer subscribe to the crap WotC is releasing today.

[LordTomar]

I have to say that I am no big fan of D&D anymore, however, my eyes had not seen this insane rule, my god what a freaking waste of paper. REASON says that a smaller fighter would do less damage than a larger fighter, duh. I point a .22 at you it does less damage than a .50cal. It makes complete sense.
Wait, let me guess the PC that is affecting the rest of the world today leaking into D&D....the little halflings complained that they are not as strong a front line fighter as a human??? DUH.

I am so glad I no longer subscribe to the crap WotC is releasing today.

Yeah reason does say that a smaller weapon would do less damage... the reason they wrote a rule about it though was so the players/DM would know just how much less damage the smaller weapons do.

My view is that people just worry too much about the numbers when they are playing games. It detracts from the enjoyment.

Ohh and about V4 possibly comming out. No thanks... I was dissapointed when they came out with V3 and then shortly after comming out with V3.5 to fix the problems that should have been worked on before they released the first draft, of course this caused me to waste the money for the V3 set then the V3.5 (said screw it and only bought the players handbook for 3.5). If V4 comes out, ill just stick with what I have, I dont care how good the rules are going to be for the next version.

[Elf]

Well, I see that we are all on the same page here... Incidently I agree with sunbeam60; the primary reason would be money. After all who actually owns WoTC.. Hasbro, one of the marketing kings in the youth to young adult market.

Now do not get me wrong, although I disagree with the marketing strategies, WoTC has indeed breathed new life into DnD and RPGs in general. There was a decided slump for awhile. The d20 license thing both caused an explosion in d20 supplements and also breathed some new life into other systems such as ArsMagica and Savage Worlds.

I for one will also wait before switching to a v4 having lived through the same rehash of basic stuff now in three (four if you count the original D&D) marketing cycles of the game.

[kalmarjan]

I have to say that I am no big fan of D&D anymore, however, my eyes had not seen this insane rule, my god what a freaking waste of paper. REASON says that a smaller fighter would do less damage than a larger fighter, duh. I point a .22 at you it does less damage than a .50cal. It makes complete sense.
Wait, let me guess the PC that is affecting the rest of the world today leaking into D&D....the little halflings complained that they are not as strong a front line fighter as a human??? DUH.

I am so glad I no longer subscribe to the crap WotC is releasing today.

LOL

I see you feel strongly about this. I will direct your attention to one thing though:

Before 3.0, it was not possible for a smaller character to weild a weapon that was considered larger than it. So you had a halfling with a shortsword.

Granted, some people do not like so many rules. I do not mind, as they are a great reference when they are needed.

As for the game being complex-- have you ever read the 1st edition of AD&D. Now THAT was complex. LOL

Sandeman

[tdwyer11b]

LOL

I see you feel strongly about this. I will direct your attention to one thing though:

Before 3.0, it was not possible for a smaller character to weild a weapon that was considered larger than it. So you had a halfling with a shortsword.

Granted, some people do not like so many rules. I do not mind, as they are a great reference when they are needed.

As for the game being complex-- have you ever read the 1st edition of AD&D. Now THAT was complex. LOL

Sandeman

I think there was a reason for that in previous editions. Seriously, a halfling using a full blown greatsword? Impossible, no, using it effectively...common sense says uh uh. Seriously, I think alot of GM's nowadays who have only known TETSNBN are using the rulebooks as a crutch and dont rely enough on a common sense approach to a ruling. Then again, I'm a fervent believer that paladins can only be human. :D

[Oberoten]

Perhaps this will open a kind of paradigm shift for FG then in the long run. With more rules-light systems where the GM's word is the deciding factor not table 375-8b ... Come to think of it, Kafka as a one-nighter adventure anyone?

[richvalle]

I have to say that I am no big fan of D&D anymore, however, my eyes had not seen this insane rule, my god what a freaking waste of paper. REASON says that a smaller fighter would do less damage than a larger fighter, duh. I point a .22 at you it does less damage than a .50cal. It makes complete sense.
Wait, let me guess the PC that is affecting the rest of the world today leaking into D&D....the little halflings complained that they are not as strong a front line fighter as a human??? DUH.

I am so glad I no longer subscribe to the crap WotC is releasing today.

Hmmm maybe you have the rule backwards? The 3.5 rule is that a hafling with a small longsword does 1d6 while a human does 1d8.

At some point the weapon size stops mattering anyway... once you get weapon focus, spec, magic, str, ect, ect how much does it matter that you are doing 1d6+10 or 1d8+10?

For me it was the mental image. I always pictured my guy with a shortsword. NOW I could picture him with...anything. As Oberoten says, I didn't really care about the dice it was all about the flavor.

And... REASON says that halfling (and other small creatures. Aren't koblods supposed to be great weapon makers?) weapon smiths are NOT making all their weapons oversized for their intended buyer.

As for the 30% chance it is not sized right for you, you can always bring in the rule that magic items resize to their holder.

rv

[richvalle]

Perhaps this will open a kind of paradigm shift for FG then in the long run. With more rules-light systems where the GM's word is the deciding factor not table 375-8b ... Come to think of it, Kafka as a one-nighter adventure anyone?

Heck, I'll play anything!

(which remindes me... I have to add a post to that play-by-post thing we have accidently started. I keep waiting for someone else to jump in. I don't know what we are going to do when it gets down to rules as I don't know that system! :) )

rv

[Oberoten]

I was kinda hoping it'd draw people in, yes. ;) And then suggest we do rules-crunch over FG. ;)

*stops Hijacking the Thread now*

[Tailz Silver Paws]

Any updates about FG 2.0? huh? huh?

[Snikle]

Perhaps this will open a kind of paradigm shift for FG then in the long run. With more rules-light systems where the GM's word is the deciding factor not table 375-8b ... Come to think of it, Kafka as a one-nighter adventure anyone?

Yeah, good luck on that shift....I got a bridge in China I want to...ah well you get the idea.

Whats Kafka?

[Oberoten]

Yeah, good luck on that shift....I got a bridge in China I want to...ah well you get the idea.

Whats Kafka?

Yes, yes of course... You want us to blow the bridge up, right?
*spits in the grass as he starts calculating in his head* Fifteen men I think, Ak47s, Claymores, couple of Rpg7 and 1 pound of semtex, 5 pounds of Thermite... 50yards of pentex cord. Sooo roughly £3000 for equipment. And then £2000 a head, additional widow insurance of £1000 for everyone that doesn't make it back. In addition, YOU pay the tickets and get the fake Visas...



Franz Kafka was an author. He wrote among other things about bureacrazy... FULLY putting the crazy into it.

[Griogre]

I inadvertently mislead you in a post above. The one year warning promise I quoted was made by a person who no longer works at WotC, so it is probably no longer valid. Sorry for the misinformation.

[demonsbane]

Anyway this worries me.

Me and others invested money (purchasing books) and effort (studying them) and feelings (appreciating them) in D&D3.5.
An unneeded upcoming 4th edition so soon seems to me disturbing to say the least.

Are there anything official in this...?

I remember not too much ago in the Fools Day WotC announced the work in progress of the new 4th edition of D&D featuring a reworking of the system, with the d30. Of course that was only a joke. I'm a bit surprised a little time after this WotC starts speaking seriously or leaking rumours about a real 4º edition of the game? This is puzzling to me.

I'm worried too about Codemonkey notice about WotC. In this moment I think both things could to affect Fantasy Grounds negatively in 2 ways:

-From my viewpoint FG works a lot in D&D structure. If suddenly they make a D&D 4º with different rules, some D&D rule-bound features -perhaps key features, as for instance the new FGII combat tracker- of FG are going to be obsolete.

-If WotC cancels permissions to Codemonkey, I don't know how that is going to affect the program regarding d20 users.
Are they going to retreat from using the program?
Wasn't "d20" part of the presentation screen of Fantasy Grounds?
Is that notice about WotC-Codemonkey impeding users to make D20 FG material for growing the app?
Isn't going Digital Adventures to publish more rulesets and updates of its existing material for FGII due this WotC problem?

Sorry, too many questions, too many disinformation for me.
Keeping oneself up to date sometimes is very time consuming. I will be grateful for any coment.

[Yenooc]

Well, in anticipation of the announced rescinding of CMP's permission to produce their fine FG versions of DnD adventures I've gone and purchased both of the titles they currently offer.

I would appreciate it if some kind soul would provide a list of other publishers who have converted DnD 3.5 adventures for FG use, along with their web addresses, so that I can check them out for purchase before the impending elimination of their availability.

(And if this is a marketing ploy to get me to buy up all I can before nothing more is available, it's working. ;) )

[Griogre]

I think it likely WotC licensed a character builder to someone. Frankly, I don't think Hasbro cares much about D&D and is in no hurry to release another edition.

[Griogre]

I would appreciate it if some kind soul would provide a list of other publishers who have converted DnD 3.5 adventures for FG use, along with their web addresses, so that I can check them out for purchase before the impending elimination of their availability.
Only Code Monkey product is effected (though probably Digital Adventures may not be happy). They were the only one doing D&D not just d20. The only FG stuff affected are the Sunless Citidel and Forge of Fury FG Modules.

[Thore_Ironrock]

Only Code Monkey product is effected (though probably Digital Adventures may not be happy). They were the only one doing D&D not just d20. The only FG stuff affected are the Sunless Citidel and Forge of Fury FG Modules.

Frankly, I'm a bit neutral on the subject since I saw the "writing on the wall" awhile back.

Griogre is correct, this only effects WOTC product conversions to Fantasy Grounds. Since we were being contracted to do the conversions, we are missing out on said contracts ... but at the moment it does not concern me as we have plenty of work ahead of us (look for an announcement on 2007 products soon). We were looking forward to doing a Core 3.5 ruleset, but now that we're not it opens the door to other projects we have awaiting in the wings.

As for what we have done already (and have planned for the future), the loss of the CMP license and the possibility of a 4th Edition does not effect us at all at the moment. Everything I hear says that WOTC would reign havoc upon themselves if they revoked the d20/OGL agreement that has been in place for nearly six years now. The worse that can happen is that they will not offer a new one based on 4th Edition rules.

As a gamer, I probably would not buy 4th Edition myself. The last time I bought 3.5 books two years ago I dropped over $100, and honestly I don't feel like doing it again. Also, considering that my group does not play "straight up WOTC 3.5", I would likely buy them at a later date after they've been discounted if at all.

I hope this answers any questions regarding DA and the CMP announcement.

[kalmarjan]

Frankly, I'm a bit neutral on the subject since I saw the "writing on the wall" awhile back.

Griogre is correct, this only effects WOTC product conversions to Fantasy Grounds. Since we were being contracted to do the conversions, we are missing out on said contracts ... but at the moment it does not concern me as we have plenty of work ahead of us (look for an announcement on 2007 products soon). We were looking forward to doing a Core 3.5 ruleset, but now that we're not it opens the door to other projects we have awaiting in the wings.

As for what we have done already (and have planned for the future), the loss of the CMP license and the possibility of a 4th Edition does not effect us at all at the moment. Everything I hear says that WOTC would reign havoc upon themselves if they revoked the d20/OGL agreement that has been in place for nearly six years now. The worse that can happen is that they will not offer a new one based on 4th Edition rules.

As a gamer, I probably would not buy 4th Edition myself. The last time I bought 3.5 books two years ago I dropped over $100, and honestly I don't feel like doing it again. Also, considering that my group does not play "straight up WOTC 3.5", I would likely buy them at a later date after they've been discounted if at all.

I hope this answers any questions regarding DA and the CMP announcement.

I totally agree with this. (And not just because I work for DA ;) )

The groups that I play with already have a mix of rules based off of 3.5/AE/anything else that I just think makes sense. To tell you the truth, as I get older, the less I need a gaming company to constantly update the rules to tell me how to game.

As for dropping the big $$ on the game? Hardly. I have other things to think of right now, and 4e is just not a priority on my list.

Now... the CMP product may be dead to D&D players... but DA isn't going anywhere either.

Sandeman

[Kalan]

I totally agree with this. (And not just because I work for DA ;) )

The groups that I play with already have a mix of rules based off of 3.5/AE/anything else that I just think makes sense. To tell you the truth, as I get older, the less I need a gaming company to constantly update the rules to tell me how to game.

As for dropping the big $$ on the game? Hardly. I have other things to think of right now, and 4e is just not a priority on my list.

Now... the CMP product may be dead to D&D players... but DA isn't going anywhere either.

Sandeman

Ditto to what my two co-workers have said ;)

As for Thore's hint on product schedule...its gonna be nice ;)

And yes...I'm a jerk sometimes ;)

In a somewhat more serious tone tho - I myself have only recently gotten "re-involved" in the whole d20 thing - mostly due to work with the RPGA and playing in Stuart's fine Qabbal games. My preference has always been for non-d20 systems and games - chief among them 7th Sea, Savage Worlds.

Of the d20 systems - the only one I like is d20 Modern - and even then only because I'm able to do Urban Fantasy better in that system than others I've seen ;)

But...as Thore has his product schedule comin up...I must drag myself back to the writing table...and slave....*hears a whip crack at his back...*

Yess...masster....*bends back over the computer, madly typing away....*

[demonsbane]

Thanks Giogre and all you guys for advancing the topic.

For your answers, then I am not worried about the future of CMP nor DA, all you having a lot of more projects to go on.

But my worry remains about Fantasy Grounds.

Are we in need to believe Fantasy Grounds is going to be "gimp" regarding Dungeons & Dragons?

I don't know really... (that is the reason I am asking so much ;) ) but the complete d20 ruleset currently available from Digital Adventures (for FG 1.05) isn't a WotC specific product but a d20 product... or it is specific WotC product? :confused:

No more D&D3.5/D&D Core/d20 complete rulesets? :(

[kalmarjan]

To answer your question:

The Complete SRD from DA is just that. The SRD packaged to use in FG. Since this is available to use, there is no danger of FG losing that.

What will not happen as it stands right now is any CORE product for FG. This means that the PHB/MM/and DMG will not be available as a ruleset until such time that a company (such as DA) gets the license to produce it.

I hope that answers your question.

We are not GIMPed for playing D&D, quite the contrary. We can use FG to play anything that we want. :)

Sandeman

[Kalan]

ie: You'll still see d20 compatible products from various sources - what you won't see is anything that is a licence from WoTC (ie: Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dragonlance, etc...) - at least not in any "official" capacity.

Yet...there is always hope ;)

[Sigurd]

I may only be a market of 1 but I have to say that DMs make more difference than gaming systems. I can get behind any system for which I have the option of an ongoing game.

Fantasy Grounds is in that sense more important than D20. If I can't play it on line I simply wont.

If WOTC is listening - they should enable FG and products like FG to reach people in my shoes. The current market may be small now but "busy people, with internet access, seperated by great distances" covers a lot of potential players.


S

[richvalle]

Anyway this worries me.

Me and others invested money (purchasing books) and effort (studying them) and feelings (appreciating them) in D&D3.5.
An unneeded upcoming 4th edition so soon seems to me disturbing to say the least.

Are there anything official in this...?


I think the word is that 4.0 IS being worked on but will not be out for a while.

[Zuxius]

When wizards launch their "pay for D&D" website, that is when 4.0 will be released. The site will have something equivalent to RPG Foundry using the internet. Let's just face it, 4.0 will have 3 sourcebooks initially, and that will be a lot easier to program than the mess that is 3.5 currently. The option to buy PDFs or books could feature access codes to unlock sourcebooks within the online engine. I own every 3.5 book in print, but I am petty sure they won't program thoughs into the site. Overall, the idea is pretty cool, but I would much rather have monkey software I could take anywhere as opposed to having access to the internet.

I have nothing to go on with my above assertions but what you fellows already know, except I did take a Nielsen rating poll (while visiting the D&D website one day) that had questions that were pretty sophisticated for what it was proposing. I find that the end of the agreement with CMP is a precusor for carrying out what that poll put forth.

[Sigurd]

I agree with your vision.

I think it would make sense to start a version 4 with internet support built in from the beginning. One possibility however, is that they have too big a market in 3.0 & 3.5 to ignore or expect too much rejection of a version 4 to proceed right now.

I sort of think that they can't afford to invalidate the D20 license - too much bad will. Projects without an explicit license may have an indefinite lifespan under the d20 license. IANAL but I hope its hard to argue that a general game support software cant use the D20 license to republish the SRD.

Also a lot of game sales are still hardbound books. I dont think a subscription could ask much more than a magazine, especially if it was as do it yourself as D&D. If it wouldn't be do it yourself I wouldn't need it. :)

Sigurd

[Hassan the Assassin]

It's easy to see why they want to publish a 4.0. Rulebooks are by a pretty high margin the best sellers, and biggest money makers of a system, followed by "player" books (for races or professions). Several people in a group will typically buy the rulebook, but only one will get a campaign module.

Also, no matter what campaign you play, you need the rulebook, but only one of many different campaigns. If people make the switch, it will also make old, second hand modules less attractive, and new ones, that follow the new rules a more likely buy.

[Zuxius]

I think I will have no problem if they slip 4.0 in as a "state of things as they are now" kinda thing. If they can bridge the gap between 3.5 and 4.0 as they did with 3.0 to 3.5, I think I can handle a new set. I remember back in 2.0 days and the guys that swore off 3.0 as the worst thing that could have happened. I am not sure what those nay-sayers did in secret, but they were openly opinionated that things were going down hill and would never be the same. I think that might have been true in their case, but what came from the expulsion of 2.0 was something that is stronger than ever. I think the hardbounds are not the real meat and bread as they once were. Plastic is the future. Miniatures are very addictive things to buy when you are looking for that specific rare. I have thought long and hard about my miniature buying, and I have come to a ghastly conclusion, I am more vested in miniatures than boardgames. The funny thing about miniatures is that it is the same game over and over with a few nuances here and there.

I read on a board somewhere that the focus of 4.0 would marrying miniatures even closer to roleplay aspect. If that be the case, I think that would lead to more cross buying of miniatures. We use miniatures in our gaming currently, but an actual system that is backwards and forward miniatures with 4.0 could really drive the profits from plastic through the roof. The thread that I read mentioned a dumbing down of 3.5 to a sleeker 4.0 with heavy emphasis towards miniatures.

As an old 1.0 D&D guy, I think that losing all the complexity of the game would make novices like D&D more and role playing would be more in the forefront opposed to combats that can bring a game to a halt with piles of books and DMs determining judgement calls. I just want to have an adventure take place with an excellent story, and not run a rolling fest that takes up the whole night.

[Elf]

OMG... Are we coming full circle back to Chainmail! I am definitely dating myself but I remember when D&D was actually a small chapter in the 4th Ed (or 3rd) Chainmail rules, a fantasy miniatures warfare game. The original D&D was just an expansion on those rules (which is why 1st and 2nd Ed. referred to human base move as 12").

[Griogre]

Funny you should mention that because - despite the rules complexity I have always seen 3.x as close in spirit to the originial D&D probably because of the fast leveling. If that's true, then going all the way back to chain mail would make sense. Especially for Hasbro. There is, of course, some rumors up on the enworld site that specifically say that 4.0 will decouple minis and D&D.

*shrug* Only time will tell.

[Zuxius]

Yes, there is nothing set, but it is true that Miniatures on a whole are worth far more than all the books I have bought....well...maybe I should say cost more.

I love all my 3rd Edition books, even the bad ones. They are fair teaming with ideas and options that can only offer "quite literally" a world of options for a long long long time to come. If 4.0 did come out, I would be hard pressed to justify buying them. I would have to change into a collector instead of a dungeon master (a pathetic horde fool indeed).

[Illrigger]

There is, of course, some rumors up on the enworld site that specifically say that 4.0 will decouple minis and D&D.

*shrug* Only time will tell.
Given what they're doing with the new Star Wars RPG (a much more minis-friendly system), and the fact that they're making far more $$$ on mini sales than they ever did on book sales, it's hard to believe that is anything more than wishful thinking on the part of the minis-haters.

[kalmarjan]

Well, it seems that is the direction WOTC would go. After all, WOTC got its fame and fortune from the collectable business.

I can see streamlined rules for 4.0, and instead of a "monster manual" and adventures, the release of miniatures with the stat cards.

The problem with books these days is they are far too easily converted into PDFs and downloaded over the internet. The advent of the stat card would really put an end to this. Sure, you have the statistics for the enemy or NPC, but what you really need to play the game would be the miniature.

When you look at it, it makes sense from Hasbro/WOTC
s point of view.

Sandeman

[LordTomar]

Well, it seems that is the direction WOTC would go. After all, WOTC got its fame and fortune from the collectable business.

I can see streamlined rules for 4.0, and instead of a "monster manual" and adventures, the release of miniatures with the stat cards.

The problem with books these days is they are far too easily converted into PDFs and downloaded over the internet. The advent of the stat card would really put an end to this. Sure, you have the statistics for the enemy or NPC, but what you really need to play the game would be the miniature.

When you look at it, it makes sense from Hasbro/WOTC
s point of view.

Sandeman


The problem with this is that instead of paying $30-$40 for a monster manual, you would have to pay hundreds... and still probably wouldnt have all the creatures from the monster manual. This would also bring DnD back down into the basement, no more playing online.

Right now I doubt I would get 4.0 when it comes out. But if they do the stat cards for the minis instead of a monster manual, then there would be no doubt in my mind that I would never buy any of the books.

[Flynn]

It is my honest opinion that 4th Edition will come in 2008, and when it does, people will buy it. Even if 4th Edition does not have an OGL component, someone will come along and make a version under the OGL that is so much like it as to allow others to start building adventures and modules for this 4E-like variant. (Picture OSRIC's core concept, save that it's for 4E instead of OD&D). There is no way to make a game that is close enough to D&D that the public will accept it as D&D, and make it significantly different enough from D&D that one could not use the OGL to make a third-party clone if need be.

The third-party market will hopefully have learned from the 3.0 to 3.5 changeover, and will be ready to move forward with new 4E material, because the vast majority of the market will switch to the new edition, whatever it is they tell themselves right now. The small yet vocal minority that sticks to their guns on the issue will be like that guy on the forums we read who still proudly proclaims his allegiance to 1st or 2nd Edition, yet participates in v3.5 discussions because there aren't any discussion boards for his preferred edition of the game. They will be few, they will be vocal, and for over half of them, they will be playing 4E within a year after it comes out, because that will be what the gaming groups are playing in the local area. It's hard to stay vigilant when you can't find a game to join that uses your favorite system. At that point, it's a matter of playing or posturing, and I'd rather be playing. (For me, it was MegaTraveller that taught me that lesson back in the early days of TNE, but the concept is the same.)

Now, FG gives us that opportunity to play the older editions, because it allows us to connect with the other fans of those older editions. Through FG and similar apps, those editions won't die, although their fanbases will definitely become more concentrated.

Hurray for FG!

My Two Coppers, For What It's Worth,
Flynn

[demonsbane]

I can see streamlined rules for 4.0, and instead of a "monster manual" and adventures, the release of miniatures with the stat cards.


OMG that would be really horrible... I hope you and others being entirely wrong in that assumption!

The game session material would be rules pamphlets (streamlined rules?) instead true books and boxes full of toys (minis) :ninja:

That would be the definite END of D&D history as role playing game (at least for me) at the exchange for transforming it of a toy childish game!?
What a nightmare... :cry: :)

I think the line of sourcebooks and material they are editing is good, so why change almost the whole D&D concept? (OK, minis are profitable for them but...)

With my limited info, I only can to think sanely about a future (and again, now entirely unneeded) 4º ed. in the sense of a WoTC wish/justification about reorganizing the existing information, that is, publishing a more comprehensive PhB, DMG and MM taking in them all the feats, classes, DM options, monsters... now scattered in a lot of 3.5º ed books, as GURPS did with its Compendiums I&II and WoTC itself did recently with Spell Compendium regarding spells.
In this way D&D would be the same.
Of course... my small amount of cents here and my wishful thinking regarding a hypothetical/future/unneeded 4º edition besides my real wish (I don't want a 4º ed in the horizon).

[kalmarjan]

OMG that would be really horrible... I hope you and others being entirely wrong in that assumption!

The game session material would be rules pamphlets (streamlined rules?) instead true books and boxes full of toys (minis) :ninja:

That would be the definite END of D&D history as role playing game (at least for me) at the exchange for transforming it of a toy childish game!?
What a nightmare... :cry: :)

I think the line of sourcebooks and material they are editing is good, so why change almost the whole D&D concept? (OK, minis are profitable for them but...)

With my limited info, I only can to think sanely about a future (and again, now entirely unneeded) 4º ed. in the sense of a WoTC wish/justification about reorganizing the existing information, that is, publishing a more comprehensive PhB, DMG and MM taking in them all the feats, classes, DM options, monsters... now scattered in a lot of 3.5º ed books, as GURPS did with its Compendiums I&II and WoTC itself did recently with Spell Compendium regarding spells.
In this way D&D would be the same.
Of course... my small amount of cents here and my wishful thinking regarding a hypothetical/future/unneeded 4º edition besides my real wish (I don't want a 4º ed in the horizon).

Actually, if you look at it, WOTC has really already half done this. Take a look at 2nd edition vs 3.0. Then look at MtG cards. See any resemblance?

Everything is now written just like you are playing an enchantment card. Instead of "your character gains..." it became "[b]You[/i] gain". (Emphasis mine). The rules are more streamlined, but at the expense of the old system.

Effects of spells are just like the effects on the MtG cards.

Is this a bad thing? If you loved 2e, it was. When WOTC bought out TSR, my friends and I all said that we would eventually be playing in a system that was like MtG. Turns out it was not so bad after all. :)

It seems that everyone has embraced the system though, and I think this was made easier by the release of the SRD. It is a lot easier for publishers to accept all the changes when all of a sudden they are allowed to publish items that are compatible. TSR had a huge problem with that, remember?

I do not think that WOTC/Hasbro would be stupid enough to pull the support on a SRD for 4e. How would everyone accept the changes then? A good business model is to have your competition do all the grunt work, and this leaves you free to create new items for the masses.

It makes sense from a business standpoint to go the miniatures route, because they have staying power vs the books. You only need to purchase the book once to play d&d as it is now. OTOH, miniatures can be purchased over and over again. Need a combat with 3 hydras? Hopefully you have enough money to get those three hydras.

I think the rulebooks will still be published, (That is, the DMG and The PHB) but I really think that the adventures/monster manuals will go by the ditch.


The problem with this is that instead of paying $30-$40 for a monster manual, you would have to pay hundreds... and still probably wouldnt have all the creatures from the monster manual. This would also bring DnD back down into the basement, no more playing online.

I think that is the point. Why have a book that sells for 30$ that furnishes you with 100-150 monsters when you would buy the minis with the stat cards in packs of 10 for 10$? To get those hundred monsters, assuming you got a rare each time that was different, you would be looking upwards of 200$-500$ if you purchased all the packs. If you searched online, you probably could drop it down to about 200$. LOL I see a very expensive future. :)

As for online play, why would we not be able to play online? Call a mini a token and be done with it. Its the same thing.

What I am more afraid of is D&D becoming like a MMORG. Can you imagine no real sourcebook? Can you imagine paying a subscription monthly to play d&d?
This would never happen in my game, but OTOH, can I go for years after a 4th edition is out, and noone but a handful of players still plays it?

Scary indeed.

[Snikle]

What I am more afraid of is D&D becoming like a MMORG. Can you imagine no real sourcebook? Can you imagine paying a subscription monthly to play d&d?
This would never happen in my game, but OTOH, can I go for years after a 4th edition is out, and noone but a handful of players still plays it?

Yep, and I remember when talk of 3e started, everyone was in an uproar, no one would use it, how could they change our beloved D&D!? And now the exact opposite has happened, EVERYONE is just soooo in love with D&D and had bought 5+ books from WotC on it.
I think they will do whatever makes them the most money and they fear will not alienate the majority of the base. They know 96% of us will go along willingly like lemming and buy their stuff.....they own the D&D rights, what other choice do we have?

[Zuxius]

I agree with most what I see above. It will change. It will change soon. And it will cash in on the "mini hobby" that has sprouted in my house. If the rules for 4.0 are able to use the minis as a direct part of the game, than I believe WotC will have a very successful future. I think the pace of the game is the most important aspect. 3.5 is incredibly detailed, and there are few who know all the details (including the DM). If there was something more simple that made the rules easier to understand (as in cutting the power gaming filler); then I believe there would be more role playing and more action. D&D is about imagination and skirmish fighting. If it was anything more then that, it would lose what it was intended to be.

I have mixed feelings about abandoning the 3.5 system, but I would also be seriously jealous if 4.0 accomplished more in an hour than 3.5 could.

Change is the only constant in life. Either we change or we become what is known as "old".

Cheers,
Zux

[Griogre]

I have mixed feelings about abandoning the 3.5 system, but I would also be seriously jealous if 4.0 accomplished more in an hour than 3.5 could.

Change is the only constant in life. Either we change or we become what is known as "old".
Well said, this expresses my feelings well.

[Stuart]

I think the pace of the game is the most important aspect. 3.5 is incredibly detailed,

I actually find the combat simplicity of 3.5 really irritating but that stems from 15 years of a Rolemaster system that can lead to a single combat taking 2+ hours to resolve.

What I find interesting to note is that as D&D has evolved, Combat mechanics have largely remained unchanged but Skills have become more important and Feats have made the system more complex. The plethora of Feats available and character class "specialities" (also "new" for us old-timers) have meant a potentially richer role playing environment but I can also see a great many "min-maxers" appearing who stack Abilities, Feats and Items into horrendous gargantuan die modifiers that leave DM's (especially simple minded souls like me who fondly remember the days when an "Elf" was a character class) gasping , "Can you do that ? !"

I have to say that I play 3.5 because that is what everyone else plays ... I would prefer Rolemaster (mostly I guess because I'm more familiar with it) BUt even I can see the benefits (especially for FG) that 3.5 offers.

There are many other systems out there that combine elements of the two and I really like HinterWelt's system called Iridium (cheap too !).

[flutters_with_pigeons]

Why buy a whole new system when the current one works just fine? with the D20 OGL, we don't HAVE to look to WotC for modules and other 'upgrades,' and I imagine the OGL will become a thorn in WotC's side if they intend to shove another "new D&D" down our throats this quickly. I mean honestly, only a couple years in between 3.alpha and 3.beta...wow, did I sound bitter? At any rate, the point I am trying awkwardly to get at is, as far as 4th ed goes, If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Stuart]

I should also add that Erin at Welshpiper also has an interesting game system and like HinterWelt's Iridium system the "platform" is designed to be as generic as possible, supporting SciFi and conventional Fantasy.

Agree totally with the previous post - why 4.0 when 3.5 works fine ?

[Oberoten]

Amusingly this is how we use/missuse ArsMagica...

We now have rules for handlinga utomatic-fire as well as 88mm cannons since it also became the system of choice for the WW2 campaign. ((Everyone is allready used to making LOTS of characters very quickly))

[Zuxius]

The simple answer - money. Miniature are making a lot of money. If D&D just about required it, there would be a watershed to be had. This may seem trivial enough for guys like us who would rather play with tokens and the computer, but for the next generation of D&D this profit potential is irrefuteable. It also appears that they want to launch a support website that would handle the 4.0 questions as well as support the system online as never before. Naturally, this is a pay by month deal, but it would be nice if it allowed just about everything that code monkey was working on. Imagine printing off spreadsheets for your D&D adventures including every detail needed. Then you walk up to the game and get your minis out and maps, done. Characters can log into the site and see their character just after the adventure. The DM can have a mini website for the group with the featured mini that represents their character. I believe this website idea does have a lot of potential to help the DM, even during the game. I really wanted code monkey to create the Foundry for D&D so I could create exotic stuff at the press of a button. Now I see that Wizards has other plans. We will have to see.

Overall, I am intrigued as much as I am horrified. Ok, about now the alien sticks it's teeth in my brain.

Cheers,
Zux

[rooster]

Ged? May I remind that I gave you the E-mail to the CEO of Atlas-Games earlier? :) *now has mental images of FG pre-loaded with ArsMagica. ;) *

Oh this would be heaven. I love Ars Magica.

Anyway, hello to the forums, I'll be getting the software shortly, so I'll probably be around.

rooster

[Griogre]

Hello Rooster, and welcome to the boards.

[richvalle]

Oh this would be heaven. I love Ars Magica.

rooster

*ahem*

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5058&page=4

[rooster]

Lovely, thanks.

rooster

[happyduder]

Oberoten wrote:
Kafka as a one-nighter adventure anyone?

Surely that adventure would last more than one night? More likely it would not end until all characters had committed suicide (and likely the players as well)! ;)

[Oberoten]

Oberoten wrote:

Surely that adventure would last more than one night? More likely it would not end until all characters had committed suicide (and likely the players as well)! ;)

... THAT usually doesn't take me more than one night?

[happyduder]

Let's see, where's my big list of gamers. Okay, now O. O, O, O-B...Oberoten. Never play with Oberoten. Check! :)

[Oberoten]

*wickedgrins* A CoC game that doesn't go TPK is a lost evening. ;)

Nah, but basically if an elder being IS groping you in a fond way... better play along. Do NOT tell it that you know... Nonono... That is BAD plan. (Stefan? If you read this, I repeat it was a bad plan and you KNEW it...)

[Valgard]

Hell, why not play Paranoia, if you don't have multiple TPK's in a session you're just not playing it right! :D

Ian

[Oberoten]

"Happiness is MANDATORY citizen. SMILE! If you are not happy you will be used as reactor shielding."

"Please report for termination."

"The computer is your friend, obey the computer."

"Will the citizen who parked in Roy-U-Rbinson4's parking place please report for termination?"

"Sorry that knowledge is classified."

"How did you get knowledge of this knowledge in the first place?"

"Mutant commie traitor!"

FOND memories. Very very fond memories. :)

Where else can you get killed by exploding cheeseballs AND by a shaving razor with a rigged laser in it in the same evening and just laught at it?