Schedule for OS/X Beta Testing?

[Nilram the Grey]

I know there isn't support for FGU Beta testing on Mac's. Is there a date by which it is expected to be supported?

[LordEntrails]

Soon. No date given but it has been mentioned that they were looking to have it available within a few weeks of Beta initial release.

[damned]

I dont think that will happen.
Moon Wizard said elsewhere that the Mac dev is also doing the Updater and that is the higher priority right now.

[tcdo]

I dont think that will happen.
Moon Wizard said elsewhere that the Mac dev is also doing the Updater and that is the higher priority right now.

Dear me - if this is true it's a little bit crushing. Consider:

* Update 20: announcement to backers that the beta drops on the 28th, a mere ten days away

* Update 21: release of beta ("This IS the moment you've all been waiting for.") - for Windows only. Mac release "in about a week if testing goes well. We are testing out builds now."

* Update 22 and 23: issued within two days of Update 21, no Mac news, perfectly understandable

* Update 21 + 7 days: cue nervous anticipation

* Update 21 + 8 days: begin to look for Mac notes on the fora, don't find much

* Update 21 + 9 days: open Kickstarter several times per day hoping for an update, find this thread, get depressed; wonder idly whether there will be any sort of news release; wonder idly whether there's a way to install the software in a Wineskin.

None of this is rational, I know. (You know that knowledge that people are having a heck of a party to which you've been invited but haven't been given the address of?)

[Moon Wizard]

tcdo,

Summary
Our plan is to have a Mac client ready for release of FGU. Beyond that, the beta testing of the Mac client is a fluid project with no set dates.

More Details
A lot of the updater fixes that Ryan is working on are also relevant to Mac installations as well, since they use the same updater engine. So, all of this eventually funnels into getting the Mac to live release as well.

I just spoke with Ryan this morning, and we are wrapping up the latest round of updater changes this week. And, he should be back on Mac work next week. There are no firm dates when the beta will be available, and we will most likely need to do some internal testing with any final builds we create before we make available to the playtest community as well.

On top of that, adding a Mac client to the mix will also tend to slow down the pace of FGU Window client updates as well, because the Mac and Windows builds are done by different developers. So, there's more coordination needed.

Regards,
JPG

[Nilram the Grey]

I just hope that FGU is playable soon on Mac's. I had to give up and upgrade to Catalina this week. My Mac started running really hot to the point the battery was lasting less than 2 hours when it would normally last at least 8 hours. I've noticed this before where some applications get updated and don't run well under the older version of OS/X. Sure enough, I updated to the new OS and everything is back to normal except now my large investment in FG is worthless. I don't accept the so call work-arounds to allow FGC to run on a up to date Mac as reasonable. This means FGC isn't supported on Mac's and FGU isn't supported on Macs yet. In other words, Macs are not currently supported by FG at all.

My group and I are hoping it is a short hiatus for us as we enjoy gaming within FG and some of the parts of FGC that bother us the most seem to be getting addressed in FGU. We were just wanting to see if we could help debug as well, so that Mac's would be supported sooner than later. Anyway it seems like the current Beta testers are providing more feedback than can be addressed, so we understand why there is no need for more Beta testers at this time. Our goal is to get support for FG back on Macs as soon as possible and if that means we go inactive for now, we understand.

[Calchas]

Why don’t you do a kickstarter update with this info, or call the beta the windows beta.

Thanks for letting us know that the Mac version is ‘a fluid project with no set dates’. They never go well in software engineering. I’m now not expecting a Mac version for release.

And thank you for finally being somewhat honest with us, much better than to say ‘about a week’ when that clearly was never going to be true.

Nilram. I wouldn’t hold your breath for FGU to be playable on the Mac.



tcdo,

Summary
Our plan is to have a Mac client ready for release of FGU. Beyond that, the beta testing of the Mac client is a fluid project with no set dates.

More Details
A lot of the updater fixes that Ryan is working on are also relevant to Mac installations as well, since they use the same updater engine. So, all of this eventually funnels into getting the Mac to live release as well.

I just spoke with Ryan this morning, and we are wrapping up the latest round of updater changes this week. And, he should be back on Mac work next week. There are no firm dates when the beta will be available, and we will most likely need to do some internal testing with any final builds we create before we make available to the playtest community as well.

On top of that, adding a Mac client to the mix will also tend to slow down the pace of FGU Window client updates as well, because the Mac and Windows builds are done by different developers. So, there's more coordination needed.

Regards,
JPG

[Moon Wizard]

Calchas,

That is not what I said. I said that we will have a Mac client for release. However, for at this moment in time, it is a lower priority than getting the updater client working well for both platforms. Without the installer/updater, there's no point in having the Mac client ready.

Regards,
JPG

[pico]

I am also saving my beta testing fuel for the Mac app. So, looks like you have a few here that will be able to give it some good workouts.
Truth is, I bought FG originally for use on Mac but the wine implementation isn't ideal for GMs and had to install bootcamp to run it on windows.
I am very motivated to get FGU testing and working on macOS :)

[Old Man Dice]

Just wanted to add my group and I are really looking forward the Mac version of FGU and are willing to help test. We've been using wineskin for two years and any issues we've had are insignificant compared to the strength of FG. I say take your time to get FGU right and then focus on making it native to the Mac. As long as we know its coming eventually, we're willing to wait.

“That's the thing about people who think they hate computers. What they really hate is lousy programmers.”
― Larry Niven

[Calchas]

Sorry mate. I didn't mean to sound so negative. I understand that the updater is a higher priority and that makes sense.

I'm just disappointed and nervous that information about the Mac Beta test was not sent out in Kickstarter updates, and worried by statements like 'Mac client to the mix will also tend to slow down the pace of FGU Window client updates as well'. If that is a concern maybe you should just get further through the Windows Beta and don't do the Mac beta at all yet. I think if you let people know this and keep them updated people would be disappointed but they would understand and it would be fine.

I know how hard it is to juggle lots of things and I do appreciate your posting on the forum.




Calchas,

That is not what I said. I said that we will have a Mac client for release. However, for at this moment in time, it is a lower priority than getting the updater client working well for both platforms. Without the installer/updater, there's no point in having the Mac client ready.

Regards,
JPG

[edem]

tcdo,

Summary
Our plan is to have a Mac client ready for release of FGU. Beyond that, the beta testing of the Mac client is a fluid project with no set dates.

More Details
A lot of the updater fixes that Ryan is working on are also relevant to Mac installations as well, since they use the same updater engine. So, all of this eventually funnels into getting the Mac to live release as well.

I just spoke with Ryan this morning, and we are wrapping up the latest round of updater changes this week. And, he should be back on Mac work next week. There are no firm dates when the beta will be available, and we will most likely need to do some internal testing with any final builds we create before we make available to the playtest community as well.

On top of that, adding a Mac client to the mix will also tend to slow down the pace of FGU Window client updates as well, because the Mac and Windows builds are done by different developers. So, there's more coordination needed.

Regards,
JPG

Out of curiosity, if the Mac and Windows builds are that different, will they be able to communicate with each other?

I ask that, because a couple of my friends are working on a Unity based TPS game, and for them creating a mac runnable version took about 4 hours, because it took 3 hours for the developer who had a mac to get home. I understand this is a different project than a TPS, and there's network data involved as well, but ... I think you see my concern there. :)

Not to mention, this way you are closing the Mac userbase out of the beta, which means they cannot give feedback on the current state, which could get the opinions biased - for example, most mac users don't use a mouse with 2-3 separate buttons, so using LMB+RMB combos for common tasks means we would have to buy extra hardware; on the other hand if the Mac and the Windows version has different gestures for the same task, that means players (and GMs) might not be able to help each otehr during game, because if a Windows player tells me to use middle button to scroll the image, well, there's no middle button on the default Magic Mouse (or the touchpad on laptops).

I understand that the focus is on the Windows version and the Updater; but I'm concerned that means the Mac version will suffer a lot, and probably the biggest reason I stood behind and backed the Unity version was the native Mac app.

[LordEntrails]

I think most of what is being tested and resolved at the moment applies to all platforms.

I have no idea if they are considering changing the interface to accommodate Mac capabilities. Personally I would assume a 3 button mouse to be required (like they are today). Including shipping, 3 button mice can be had in the US for $3.50. So hard to consider it prohibitive in cost. But, i know people dont want to have special hardware for just one application and may not want the cheapest thing available.

Hopefully that perspective helps, i dont mean to dismiss your concerns and perspective. They are valid and important.

[Old Man Dice]

Two of my players are Mac users. Despite my exalted status as the DM, one repeatedly rejects my suggestion to add a three-click mouse. Instead, he found various ways to do the same things on the trackpad of his Mac laptop. And all of them have refused my suggestion to add a second monitor to give themselves more screen space. We've been playing regularly for more than two years and have loved every minute of it, even with the occasional mechanics delay.

I say this to make two points:
1) Mac users can still enjoy FG even with the minor limitations
2) Players never listen to their DM

[notrealdan]

I always use a real mouse with my Macbook Pro when I can. A trackpad is a device of last resort. None of my Mac-based players have ever complained about bringing a real mouse. Now, if I could just get them to pitch in for pizza as easily... ;)

I'm sure SmiteWorks will get the Mac version out as soon as they can and value all constructive feedback, but they still have a lot of work ahead that applies to all platforms, not to mention continuing to support FGC at the same time.

[tcdo]

Two of my players are Mac users. Despite my exalted status as the DM, one repeatedly rejects my suggestion to add a three-click mouse. Instead, he found various ways to do the same things on the trackpad of his Mac laptop. And all of them have refused my suggestion to add a second monitor to give themselves more screen space. We've been playing regularly for more than two years and have loved every minute of it, even with the occasional mechanics delay.

I say this to make two points:
1) Mac users can still enjoy FG even with the minor limitations
2) Players never listen to their DM

I would love to know what workarounds your players have employed. 2 1/2 years in, I still beseech my Windows-based DM to do things for me that I can't. There isn't really a FAQ set up for Mac users yet. (FGU's wiki implies there will be one, but as yet it, like my beta, is vaporware.)

My group is half Mac, give or take half a computer. And I've borrowed a three-button mouse. We'll see how my Wineskin treats it.

It seems to me that if the aim is simultaneous release of FGU for Windows and Mac that there must then be a Mac beta of some sort. If so I'd like to be part of that. (There was some mention of beta access in the Kickstarter. One hates to think that one's own OS is an afterthought....) I will say the promise of a working Mac-native client was a big reason I joined the Kickstarter.

[LordEntrails]

It seems to me that if the aim is simultaneous release of FGU for Windows and Mac that there must then be a Mac beta of some sort. If so I'd like to be part of that. (There was some mention of beta access in the Kickstarter. One hates to think that one's own OS is an afterthought....) I will say the promise of a working Mac-native client was a big reason I joined the Kickstarter.
The lead developer has already responded to you and another on your comments here. See posts #5 & 8 of this thread.

SmiteWorks has never given me reason to question their integrity.

[Flyteach]

[QUOTE=notrealdan;462390]I always use a real mouse with my Macbook Pro when I can. A trackpad is a device of last resort. None of my Mac-based players have ever complained about bringing a real mouse. Now, if I could just get them to pitch in for pizza as easily... ;)

I gave up a mouse after 20 years and due to using a mouse. While I had always used trackpads on my Macs, I even use one for work (and left handed to boot) to spread the load on my shoulders and hands. Haven't had to see the Physical Therapist since I switched to a trackpad full time.

I've been running FG in a Parallels VM and have not found anything I couldn't do. You just need to be familiar with the tool of choice.

[LordEntrails]

I gave up a mouse after 20 years and due to using a mouse. While I had always used trackpads on my Macs, I even use one for work (and left handed to boot) to spread the load on my shoulders and hands. Haven't had to see the Physical Therapist since I switched to a trackpad full time.

I've been running FG in a Parallels VM and have not found anything I couldn't do. You just need to be familiar with the tool of choice.
Just in case you were not aware and wanted another option, their are trackballs and 3D mice that don't require movement like a normal mouse that can help with such issues and often have a whole lot of buttons.

[dmbrown]

I am a die hard Mac user and I’ve been using trackballs for the last 15 years and they work great. Logitech makes several that work well and are around $20. The Mac OS has had a right click contextual menu for a very long time and I never found their standard mouses to be very good at incorporating that.

Here is a link to a trackball that I use: https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Trackman-Marble-Four-Button-Programmable/dp/B001F42MKG/ref=asc_df_B001F42MKG/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198138936631&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10835298833019896104&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9012036&hvtargid=aud-801738734305:pla-358648223478&psc=1

[edem]

For everyone who are suggesting to buy a mouse/trackball "because it's cheap" to solve this problem: I have a mouse. It's a really nice mouse. It's called a magic mouse. It came with my mac. It has a mutlitouch trackpad-like surface instead of buttons. I can use a left click or a right click on it, I have a very nice scroll on it, I can do zoom on it, I can switch desktops or apps, and I still don't need modifier keys on the keyboard.. It works for everything I do. It just doesn't do Left Click + Right Click at the same time. And I never needed that for my day to day tasks. The same goes for the trackpads built in macbooks. Now to suggest to buy an extra device just for one software that is promised to be a native app is not solving the problem. The problem is that if it was truly a native app, it would consider the default general capabilities. Buying an extra piece of mostly plastic hardware that is just collecting dust when I'm not using FG is actually creating more problems than it seems to solve, and it means I have to shell out extra money, just because I'm not using Windows.

[Flyteach]

Wow, I'm kinda surprised at the response about trackpads....it's like they are the plague or something. I didn't say I needed any other options and am perfectly happy with the trackpad which is a fully supported device on Macs. Thank you for the info, but I did the research (quite a bit, actually) and found trackpads work great, even for Windoze. There's nothing I can't do at work that a mouse would solve. The negativity and laser focus on a single solution (or the invalidation of a perfectly valid one) leaves me sad. I don't tell people what they need to do.....I was just providing a perspective of my experience. FWIW, trackballs have the same issue as a mouse....you have to grab it which is what the problem is. But then, I'm not sure you've gone through physical therapy and done the research. It's a very negative attitude about trackpads.

[LordEntrails]

Edem and Flyteach,
I'm sure everyone who tried to be helpful is sorry that you took offense at any suggestions made.

Speaking for myself, and knowing the general personalities exhibited on this forum, I can say at no point was I saying what you should do, only what you could do if the solution worked for you (with the implied understanding that their is no way I/we could know what the true details of any use case are or what research you might have done).

As I always suggest to anyone who wants FG to behave differently than it currently does is to make sure they check the Wishlist (https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/) and see if the idea is already there, vote on if it is, and if not add it.

[edem]

Edem and Flyteach,
I'm sure everyone who tried to be helpful is sorry that you took offense at any suggestions made.


If you are promised to have an apple peeler that can peel apples, and you paid for it to be made, but then you cannot test if it will peel apples properly, and you ask whether it will be able to peel apples, would you like to hear several opinions telling you you should buy a pear grappler to make your apple peeler able to peel apples?

[LordEntrails]

If you are promised to have an apple peeler that can peel apples, and you paid for it to be made, but then you cannot test if it will peel apples properly, and you ask whether it will be able to peel apples, would you like to hear several opinions telling you you should buy a pear grappler to make your apple peeler able to peel apples?
It is always your choice how you chose to react to any situation.

[edem]

It s always your choice how you chose to react to any situation.

Indeed. Like their choice to suggest to spend additional money on a pear grappler.

[Trenloe]

Now to suggest to buy an extra device just for one software that is promised to be a native app is not solving the problem. The problem is that if it was truly a native app, it would consider the default general capabilities. Buying an extra piece of mostly plastic hardware that is just collecting dust when I'm not using FG is actually creating more problems than it seems to solve, and it means I have to shell out extra money, just because I'm not using Windows.
To clarify. None of the community members making suggestions are directly involved in the development of Fantasy Grounds Unity. The main dev (Moon Wizard) didn't make any such suggestion. Please keep this in mind.

[Wyvernspirit]

FGU is the first FG product I have paid for, because true Mac support was promised. I refuse to pay for FGC as it is a hot mess on Mac, the worst piece of software I run on my Mac. I am looking forward to finally getting something worthwhile.

Not sure what all the issues with three button mice are, I’ve had no issues running FG as far as pointer control is concerned. If someone could enlighten me as to what benefit a 3 button mouse would provide, I would appreciate it.

[LordEntrails]

With a 3 button mouse you can hold right & left click at the same time and draw a temporary pointer. As you probably know, you can draw multiple pointers from the right click menu. There might be other things if your mouse doesn't have something like scroll or right mouse, but not sure since I think you can emulate most/all of those. I suspect you can tell more about that than I can :)

[Wyvernspirit]

With a 3 button mouse you can hold right & left click at the same time and draw a temporary pointer. As you probably know, you can draw multiple pointers from the right click menu. There might be other things if your mouse doesn't have something like scroll or right mouse, but not sure since I think you can emulate most/all of those. I suspect you can tell more about that than I can :)

It would seem the temporary pointer is all I am missing. There are commands for left, right, and scroll on the trackpad. I use trackpads on both Macs and PCs and can understand why PC users would scoff at it, windows based PCs generally have horrible trackpads, on Windows I am often wishing I had a mouse, and if available, I’ll use one. On my MacBook it isn’t as important as it performs leaps and bounds better.

[BubaDragon]

I just hope that FGU is playable soon on Mac's. I had to give up and upgrade to Catalina this week. My Mac started running really hot to the point the battery was lasting less than 2 hours when it would normally last at least 8 hours. I've noticed this before where some applications get updated and don't run well under the older version of OS/X. Sure enough, I updated to the new OS and everything is back to normal except now my large investment in FG is worthless. I don't accept the so call work-arounds to allow FGC to run on a up to date Mac as reasonable. This means FGC isn't supported on Mac's and FGU isn't supported on Macs yet. In other words, Macs are not currently supported by FG at all.

To be fair FG has NEVER run natively on a non-windows OS, it has always required WINE to run in Linux and macOS/OS X.

Your upgrade to Catalina just invoked the "Kill 32-bit applications" rule Apple put in place for that update. This does not mean you have lost your investment in FG.

The solution is to run hypervisor software and Windows in a VM. Some are even free, but you get what you pay for.

I would suggest Parallels Desktop 15 (even though I hate the SaaS revenue model) as it supports Sidecar and outperforms VMWare Fusion.

I had to make that jump a while ago as CC3+ does not run well in WINE, and have not looked back since.

[Flyteach]

Agreed, I've been using Parallels and Windoze VM's for 9 years. In fact, I get better results from my VMs than I get from the cheap hardware that I use at work (same version of Windoze).

[grimfish]

Can you run the FGU in Wine on a Mac? I’m getting anxious to try it and also feeling left out/left behind/worried about my investment. I do agree that the Kickstarter updates should have been more forthcoming about the Mac status, if only to set expectations. I had to do some digging to find this thread.

[Moon Wizard]

We're working on it. Ryan actually pushed an internal build to our team yesterday, and found a couple issues.

Believe me, once it's ready for beta testing, Doug will be pushing to announce something.

Regards,
JPG

[LordEntrails]

Hey grimfish. I don't know about Wine, but their is a thread on using Parallels that have reports of FGU working for people.

[tcdo]

Moon Wizard's note is immensely cheering. Best news I've had today.

(For those interested: the borrowed mouse let me instantly become the only Mac user in my group able to roll eight dice simultaneously, because there's no trackpad method for clicking-and-holding with one mouse button while clicking with the other. It is not common knowledge, at least in my group, that this sort of mouse is needed for the UI. - There is probably a chat window language for targeting a specific roll that none of us have yet mastered.)

I'd think Parallels works ably, if only because then you're running the Windows FGU under Windows. I haven't tried a Wineskin and don't really fancy trying to set that up.

[ddavison]

FGU testing of the Mac installer was just sent out to a limited set of testers. As soon as we rule out any major issues, we can open this up to everyone else in the Closed Beta.

[Moon Wizard]

See, what did I tell you... ;)

JPG

[LordEntrails]

Yea, Doug has trouble keeping his mouth closed doesn't he? *g*

But that's ok! Users like to be in the know!

[g0ntzal]

FGU testing of the Mac installer was just sent out to a limited set of testers. As soon as we rule out any major issues, we can open this up to everyone else in the Closed Beta.

Great news! I'm waiting for testing MacOS FGU patiently...

[Graylock]

This is great news. In the 15 minutes it took to read through this thread, my expectations bounced all over the dang place. My group is half mac users and for us, running natively is a big deal and the reason we backed FGU. A few have drifted off to R20, but when FGU is out, I'll be pulling them back in! But please, keep us informed of the progress. A month without any word of mac on the kickstarter page is far too long to wait when you got a major jones going on!

[yellowepi]

So excited!! Have been waiting oh-so, somewhat, patiently!!

[Nilram the Grey]

This is great news. I'm looking very forward to it coming to use Beta backers. :)

[edem]

I'm checking my email (including spam folders) every 15 minutes waiting for news or an invitation... :P

[ddavison]

We are planning to send this out to backers next week when everyone is back from holidays.

[tcdo]

We are planning to send this out to backers next week when everyone is back from holidays.

Thanks much for the heads up. (I do indeed like to be in the know.)

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone celebrating it! I know I'll be looking ahead to trying FGU out...

[jrowsey1]

Thanks for the update! Enjoy the holiday weekend!

[Ulric]

Will the macOS FGU be released this week?

[damned]

Will the macOS FGU be released this week?

I believe I read elsewhere that it is likely delayed by a 1 or even 2 weeks.

[tcdo]

I believe I read elsewhere that it is likely delayed by a 1 or even 2 weeks.

Can you detail where you found this? I'm not finding anything on the boards. Interest remains high.

[LordEntrails]

Can you detail where you found this? I'm not finding anything on the boards. Interest remains high.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?52185-Poll-Early-Access-or-Pre-Sale-in-December&p=466010&viewfull=1#post466010

[tcdo]

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?52185-Poll-Early-Access-or-Pre-Sale-in-December&p=466010&viewfull=1#post466010

Oh, that's a separate question. In mid-November (p. 15 of your thread) ddavison posted "Yes, that is what we are weighing -- whether or not it makes sense to move into some form of Early Access or Open Beta prior to official launch."

This thread is querying the release of a closed beta for Mac users. Different. (At least some of us backers are hoping it's different.)

[LordEntrails]

Yes it might be different. I believe that specific answer was in regards to allowing demo players to connect to FGU ultimate hosts. Though, in previous timelines, both the demo players and Mac testing was on the same timeline. Don't really know if they still are or not :o

[Kelrugem]

Oh, that's a separate question. In mid-November (p. 15 of your thread) ddavison posted "Yes, that is what we are weighing -- whether or not it makes sense to move into some form of Early Access or Open Beta prior to official launch."

This thread is querying the release of a closed beta for Mac users. Different. (At least some of us backers are hoping it's different.)

You should read the recent Kickstarter Update which just came out ;)

[Mortar]

Check the most recent KS update, the link for the Mac OSX installer is in there.

[ddavison]

Yes, Kickstarter backers should be able to download the link there and install it. Please don't share the link though since it is currently reserved to KS backers. When we work out a few more of the player client issues, we will open up the Demo users and then you can give those links out to both Mac and Windows users to connect to a game hosted by an Ultimate license holder. We are at least another week out from what I can tell on that.

[tcdo]

Yes, Kickstarter backers should be able to download the link there and install it. Please don't share the link though since it is currently reserved to KS backers. When we work out a few more of the player client issues, we will open up the Demo users and then you can give those links out to both Mac and Windows users to connect to a game hosted by an Ultimate license holder. We are at least another week out from what I can tell on that.

Love it! Thanks, guys!

I was in transit when the KS update came down. Now installing the updater, looking at the (still Mac-free) wiki, and getting ready to search threads here for what I should be looking at as I go in and start nosing around!

-- Followup: my updater appears to be stalled. Says "Checking package FantasyGrounds for Updates - FantasyGrounds Updating"; below that "Downloading FantasyGrounds: (0.1 / 85.4MB)" and there's a slim green bar at the left edge of "Update Progress (FantasyGrounds): (1/43)". Last lines of the log are (lines separated by pipes) "Checking package version. | New version found, updating. | FantasyGrounds Updating | 8 Response received: 89577680"

--Followup to my followup: I cancelled, retried (same result), and cancelled again, and went into my settings and clicked the box for "Advanced Logging." And now my update is happening. Very excited.

[Moon Wizard]

I don't use Mac at all; but if it were a Windows machine, I would suggest looking at any machine or router security settings that might block/limit network access or throughput. (i.e. Internet filtering, parental controls, firewall, etc.) I've asked Ryan and Doug if they have any ideas as well, but it is after hours for them.

Regards,
JPG

[tcdo]

Thanks, clicking that tickbox appears to have (for whatever reason) fixed the matter. I was surprised to see only the 5E demo campaign in the "Select Campaign" window, but then I clicked "New" and all the rulesets showed up.

Since I've never DM'd and am not what I'd call a FG expert I think I need to get up to speed on what I should be trying with this (better looking) beta. Looking forward to /scaleui working (I gather it isn't yet), and catching up to all those Windows beta testers who've been playing for awhile now!

- You know what I don't see in the launch screen? The "Manage characters" box. I'm gonna have to figure out how to get my characters into this non-Wineskin FGU!

[Mortar]

You saw only the 5e demo campaign because that was the only campaign in the folder until you hit new and create more.

[ddavison]

We are removing Manage Characters from the options for a few reasons. The new way to build characters will be directly inside of a campaign. Just create a campaign of the appropriate ruleset and build the characters there. From there, you can export them out. We have some updates planned for this area in the near future.

[Moon Wizard]

To add characters from FGC to FGU, try exporting the characters from FGC, creating a new "5E Characters" campaign in FGC (or whatever game system), and then importing them there.

In FGU, you can import characters from any local campaigns or any cached played campaigns into any campaign you are playing in; so Manage Characters isn't needed.

Regards,
JPG

[drakowulf]

I'm hoping I can provide some valuable Mac feedback.

Should I post module-specific issues here? I'm getting some console errors when loading SKT data.

I'm also unable to set the server to local host (public or private). Every time I restart the app, it asks me to allow the app through the Mac firewall even though an allow entry already exists. I do have a valid forwarding rule for my physical firewall also.

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[grimfish]

1.) I was afraid this may be the case, but I never actually saw the mac requirements listed for Unity during the Kickstarter or on any other discussion. I took a chance and lost. I'm on an older mac that can only be updated to 10.11.6. It looks like the FG Updater only supports 10.13 and higher. The installer actually works and puts everything into the applications folder successfully, but it doesn't launch the app. Looks like the package installer may need some basic target OS verification prior to the installation. It gave me false hope that it would work. I realize that you have to cut off older OS support at some point, but is there a technical reason that 10.13 is the target build? Looks like I'm stuck with classic until I can afford a new Mac.

2.) Is there a Mac Beta testing thread that would be preferable for people to post bugs and issues to?

Not sure if it is proper to edit my post and quote myself, but new information just in.

The installer doesn't work for 10.11 (I did create a new post for tracking), but the engine that it installed DID work. I just manually launched it. It did some weird stuff, but ended up downloading FGU. It does in fact launch and run. Able to see the lobby and create a game, and launch into the leather screen. Sooo much leather :|

That installer is rough, but I get it. Installers and updaters can be a real pain to create. Nice job, team!

[LordEntrails]

Should I post module-specific issues here? I'm getting some console errors when loading SKT data.




2.) Is there a Mac Beta testing thread that would be preferable for people to post bugs and issues to?

If the issue is new, please start a new thread. See this thread for some advice on how to report (note I will update it in a minute to indicate which operating system is in use).
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?51687-How-to-Report-Issues-Bugs-and-Problems

[PhilAdams]

I'm having the same problem. The other problem was that FGU was seeing my WiFi IP and wouldn't let me change to my Cat-5 IP (higher throughput, and it's where my router has port forwarding set up already).

[MacDork]

Including shipping, 3 button mice can be had in the US for $3.50. So hard to consider it prohibitive in cost. But, i know people dont want to have special hardware for just one application and may not want the cheapest thing available.

Consider also that modern Mac laptops don't have USB-A, so you're looking at a USB-C hub, as well. I think the other point about Mac users not getting a say in the beta process is a pretty big point, as well.

[JubiladosdeArkham]

Installer works perfectly fine for me in 10.11 but the Check for Updates is still red. When I press it I get an error message.

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[Aventhar]

I'm hoping I can provide some valuable Mac feedback.

Should I post module-specific issues here? I'm getting some console errors when loading SKT data.

I'm also unable to set the server to local host (public or private). Every time I restart the app, it asks me to allow the app through the Mac firewall even though an allow entry already exists. I do have a valid forwarding rule for my physical firewall also.

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Same issue here...

[Ulric]

[QUOTE=pendragon2009;466595]Installer works perfectly fine for me in 10.11 but the Check for Updates is still red. When I press it I get an error message.

I'm on 10.14.4 and had the red update button problem. It was because my password was incorrect and I was not getting an error message. I corrected the password and ran updates and my content downloaded and red update button changed to black.

[JubiladosdeArkham]

I'll try that. Thanks Ulric

[Gozer the Gozerian]

I had this same issue - will there be an installer/updater compatible with 10.11? I can install FGU, but cannot update, and do not want to upgrade to Catalina.

[JubiladosdeArkham]

I've installed and updated in El Capitan so the problem must be something else Gozer. Check your password, I couldn't update before cause I wrote my pass wrong.

[ddavison]

Installer works perfectly fine for me in 10.11 but the Check for Updates is still red. When I press it I get an error message.

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Can you click on Copy for the console message and paste it in here? We can't see the full error message but it likely has more information to help track down the problem. Also, please include the version of Mac OSX you are running whenever you can.

[JubiladosdeArkham]

Last weekend I solved the problem entering the right password but now when I try to update FG crashes. Running FGU on OS X 10.11.6 El Capitan.

[EDIT] If I run the FGUpdaterEngine, then FantasyGrounds console sends this message:
[10/12/2019 17:28:23] [NOTICE] Launcher scene starting.
[12/10/2019 5:28:34 PM] [<color="red">ERROR</color>] Updater: Unable to locate program (/Applications/SmiteWorks/Fantasy Grounds/FantasyGroundsUpdater.app/Contents/MacOS/FantasyGroundsUpdater)

[EDIT again] FGUpdaterEngine hasn't updated everything and that was giving the error.

[EDIT one more time] I've checked the installation structure on my Mac and I think I know why it sends the error message. FGUpdater is not installed in the correct folder.

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[tcdo]

I had this same issue - will there be an installer/updater compatible with 10.11? I can install FGU, but cannot update, and do not want to upgrade to Catalina.

Should you want to try an intermediate macOS version, you should Google for App Store links, e.g. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210190. I upgraded in Oct. from 10.12 (Sierra) to 10.14 (Mojave), largely without issue.

[Moon Wizard]

I've added some very preliminary system requirements for FGU, based on what Unity engine requires to run.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50373-FGU-Playtest-Overview

Based on current Unity requirements, MacOS 10.12+ is required.

Regards,
JPG

[grimfish]

Would love to upgrade to 10.12 or higher but my Mac is as upgraded as it will go. It’s an older Mac, so I get that it may not be the best for new software. Just frustrated that there wasn’t some idea of the OS requirements before the Kickstarter. FGU is actually running well for me on 10.11 once I convinced it into installing and updating. Everything EXCEPT pulling up the maps which causes everything to slow to a crawl. Loving the crisp fonts though!

I was hoping that this was going to be an actual Mac application. I can tell from the build that is basically programmed in mono/xamarin or whatever it is called now. It’ll likely be second class citizen even in the best of circumstances. Not due to Smiteworks or their skill and dedication! Just that it isn’t optimal for the Mac platform. Fingers crossed that it gets good enough for everyone else, but I can’t go out and buy a new Mac for FGU.

I guess the next step is to buy a copy of Windows and install that on my Mac to see how that works! Still very anxious to try out the LoS!

[dmbrown]

No need to buy a copy. You can download a copy from Microsoft’s site and use it for free. You’ll get a nagging message to activate it and they’ll be a watermark, but you can run FG no problems. That is how I was testing it out until the Mac Beta came out.

[Moon Wizard]

@grimfish,

This is actually built on the Unity 3D platform which uses Mono libraries for implementation, and that actually drives the OS requirements as well. We chose Unity as the implementation, so we could write code for the application that could be used on Windows, Mac or Linux.

Regards,
JPG

[grimfish]

Yeah, I was actually trying to strike through parts of my original post. I thought about it on the way home from work, and forgot about the extra bit of magic the unity engine adds to it (duh, its right in the name) over just straight mono. My apologies, i'm still a little salty over decades of crappy mac ports and the desire to have Fantasy Grounds working natively on my mac instead of running it in wine. I don't second guess the decision to using Unity. That is the only thing that really makes sense for multiplatform, and I walk back my earlier comments.

FGU really does look nice. The performance is good on my early 2009 Mac on El Capitan running 10.11.6 EXCEPT for the images and maps. I wasn't kidding about finally having nice crisp modern text. Little nice things like that show that FGU will eventually be greater than FG Classic. Y'all have done a great job on it so far. There is just a lot of emotions wound up in a highly anticipated release.

I guess part of my panic is the realization that I feel a little stuck. I have options, but none are very palatable.
1.) I've paid for an item I won't be able to use for the foreseeable future, unless I buy a new computer
2.) Run Windows in Bootcamp or VM on my existing Mac (untested - just hopeful, also defeats the purpose of having a Mac version) which isn't optimal
3.) Continue using FG Classic until...see #1

I'll eventually buy another Computer, so assuming I'm still playing and using FG, it will sort of take care of itself.
The conundrum is whether my group stays on FG Classic or moves on to FGU without me. (I'm assuming you can't mix and match FGC & FGU)

Do you have an estimate for how long you will continue to support FG Classic once FGU is released?

Thanks again for all the effort. I'm off to install Windows to see how that works!

[Moon Wizard]

You can not mix and match FGC and FGU. One of the reasons we can improve FGU in some ways is because we can break free of certain constraints with the current FGC development platform.

We are beholden to some degree as to what Mac, Windows and Linux OSes we can support based on what Unity requires. The current version of Unity 2019.2 requires Mac OS 10.12.

On FGC support, we have no firm plans for how long to continue supporting FGC. It’s going to be driven heavily by how much FGC is continuing to be used. We also have the difference between active development (ie continuing improvements) and maintenance support. For now, our lab is to continue adding features to both when they can be shared, but the focus will definitely be on new capabilities that FGU opens up.

Regards,
JPG

[pollux]

I've paid for an item I won't be able to use for the foreseeable future, unless I buy a new computer

I feel for you, but you should know that if you buy a new computer it won't "just" be for FGU. You're running a system that Apple itself doesn't support anymore. You're already not receiving security updates from Apple. It's a little hard to know this because Apple doesn't publish an end-of-life policy for OSX. Microsoft and all Linux Distro vendors do publish such a policy, which makes it very clear when you're going to stop receiving security updates. Apple just... stops publishing security updates... silently... which is pretty confusing and leads people into these kinds of surprises. They have already stopped updating OSX 10.11 and I believe 10.12 as well.

People who create OSX software DO track the updates that Apple releases, and they stop supporting old versions of OSX when Apple does. Here are some links from people who do this kind of support status detective work:


Here's howtogeek discussing that Apple has no published end-of-life policy and describing how you can check if your OS has gotten updates recently: https://www.howtogeek.com/350901/which-releases-of-macos-are-supported-with-security-updates/
Here's the Carnegie Mellon University School of Computer Science alerting its own students and staff that El Capitan is no longer supported by Apple and will no longer be supported by School of Computer Science IT staff. They further note that 10.12 will stop being supported in October of 2019 (which has since passed). https://computing.cs.cmu.edu/news/2019/eol-macos-elcapitan.html


So while it's a drag that you're in this situation unexpectedly... it's also no accident that Unity doesn't support OSX 10.11. Unity lacks this support not because it's a "crappy mac port", but because it's a well supported platform for releasing well supported mac apps. And as such, the Unity software engineering team tracks what OSX releases Apple themselves support, even though Apple doesn't tell anyone what that list is. The Unity team then publishes their list of supported platforms... which may look arbitrary without the above context, but which is well grounded in Apple's unstated policy.

The TLDR here is that you should REALLY consider upgrading your Mac regardless of your FGU experience. If there's a serious security vulnerability in OSX 10.11, Apple is unlikely to fix it and is unlikely to tell you (or anyone) that they're choosing not to fix it. You have definitely missed security fixes already, and without tracking the fixes that Apple releases for newer releases of OSX its impossible to know how serious the ones you're missing are.

[sturtus]

Thank you for all your hard work on the Mac builds.

Is there any plan to implement a lower render quality option for systems with onboard GPU's, like any MacBook under 15"? Starting digging into Unity docs, and it seems like it's a core option. https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/class-GraphicsSettings.html

I'm asking because I have a 2017 MBP, macOS 10.14, 16GB RAM, and onboard Intel Iris Plus 640 GUP. FGU runs really well until I open a map. FGU at current build on 12/23 pegs my GPU when I open up a map, and doesn't relent until it's closed, affecting my entire system with half second delays or more. I'm testing with a copy of Volo Guide's beholder player's map to see if there are any noticeable performance improvements between FGU updates/builds.

It also appears you have tentative minimum requirements for GPU's that include DirectX info, but since DirectX doesn't exist on Macs, does your Mac dev have any recommendations? Have you tested forcing the Metal API as opposed to the Auto GPU API option in Unity? I'd be curious to see the differences between a Metal and OpenGL build on Mac, because my assumption is that Metal performs better and I'd love to know. ( https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/Metal.html )

Thanks again!

[sturtus]

As a followup question, do you need additional Mac testers? I happen to have access to a few expert Tier 1/2 Mac support engineers with some spare systems. If you had a test routine, I'd be happy to run it on some devices for you. Cheers!

[pollux]

Is there any plan to implement a lower render quality option for systems with onboard GPU's, like any MacBook under 15"... FGU runs really well until I open a map... affecting my entire system with half second delays or more.

Not a dev... but having read dev comments in other threads, they have confirmed that very little effort has gone into optimization yet and that they do plan to spend more time on optimization later. "affecting my entire system with half-second delays or more" sounds pretty bad... maybe there is something specific they can look at sooner that's affecting you and certain classes of mac users. But in general, they're fixing broken functionality first and planning to focus on improving performance later.

Also, consider creating a new thread for specific issues like this performance problem. This thread is super old, super long, and has many unrelated topics in it.

[grimfish]

Not to dredge up old saltiness here, but i'm still using FGC on my old insecure mac. I am considering buying a new Mac this year. However, it will certainly not be an Intel based one, and instead will be an M1 based. I think I saw in another thread that FGU may be updated to work on an M1 mac sometime next year (this year? 2021?). What is the current guidance for buying a new Mac? Use FGC in wine and use wine through rosetta? Use FGU in Rosetta? Buy an intel mac?

Thanks and hope the team there has a great new year!

[Dire Weasel]

FGU apparently runs very well on the M1 under Rosetta.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?63740-Report-on-running-FGU-on-Apple-Silicon-based-mac-mini

[LordEntrails]

Not to dredge up old saltiness here, but i'm still using FGC on my old insecure mac. I am considering buying a new Mac this year. However, it will certainly not be an Intel based one, and instead will be an M1 based. I think I saw in another thread that FGU may be updated to work on an M1 mac sometime next year (this year? 2021?). What is the current guidance for buying a new Mac? Use FGC in wine and use wine through rosetta? Use FGU in Rosetta? Buy an intel mac?

Thanks and hope the team there has a great new year!
There are multiple reports of users using an M1 with little to no issues.

[ddavison]

FGC won't run on the Mac OSX since it no longer supports 32 bit applications. FGU should run fine on it.

[grimfish]

That's encouraging news. Any plans to take FGU native to M1?
Thanks for the updates! looking forward to finally migrating to FGU.

[ddavison]

We will continue to release three native builds for FGU: Windows 64-bit, OSX 64-bit, Linux.