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Callum
October 31st, 2019, 11:29
How can I get LOS to work? I can see the buttons for "Layer LOS" and "Global LOS" in the GM's view, but I can't find any instructions in the wiki or forum for what these do. How do I get a token on the player's map moving around with the LOS working (as shown in the demo)?

Zwergenmauer
October 31st, 2019, 14:14
Likewise...Tried to work a bit with the LOS/Visibility toggles and haven't been able to replicate what was seen in the demo video. Not seeing much (if any) documentation to help. Icon sizing and maneuvering sometimes works and other times doesn't, maybe depending on map settings (?). Also tried using layers in the map editor, but need a bit more guidance to use it to its best potential.

Zacchaeus
October 31st, 2019, 14:24
First make sure that the map you are testing on actually has occluders drawn on it.

Unlock the Map and make sure you are in 'Play' mode. (dice icon top left). Now click the enable LOS buttoon.

ddavison
October 31st, 2019, 14:55
This is the new wiki for Fantasy Grounds Unity

https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGU/overview

Zwergenmauer
October 31st, 2019, 15:18
Thanks! Yes, that did the trick for me. And though not entirely intuitive, I was able to use the tools in the toolbar to make the LOS work with a few sample NPCs/Characters. Still playing with this, but your suggestion really helped.

Callum
November 1st, 2019, 11:15
First make sure that the map you are testing on actually has occluders drawn on it.

Unlock the Map and make sure you are in 'Play' mode. (dice icon top left). Now click the enable LOS buttoon.

Thanks, Zacchaeus, that's very helpful - I hadn't realised that was a button!

That's enabled me to start experimenting with the maps in Lost Mine of Phandelver. I've noticed that, on the Cragmaw Castle player map, all the doors are 'open' by default. This seems to me to be the wrong way round - they should be 'shut' by default. The same is true of the arrow slits.

ddavison
November 1st, 2019, 13:23
If you have a moduledb file for Lost Mine of Phandelver in your campaign's moduledb, try deleting this first. If you copied it from here, then that will override the final version we built into the updater system. In the official version, it should have all doors closed and also have secret doors on Redbrand Hideout.

Callum
November 1st, 2019, 15:26
Thanks, Doug. I tried deleting the moduledb file for Lost Mine of Phandelver in the campaign's moduledb folder, but that didn't make any difference - the doors were still open, and there weren't any secret doors on the Redbrand Hideout map, either. So I ran the updater again, and that seems to have fixed the issue - all doors present and correct!

Incidentally, I don't think the rubble to the north of area 11 (P3-08.11. Ruined Tower) is set up correctly on the LOS layer. It's a single zone, stretching across the entrance, which means that when you pass through it you can see into the room to the east. I think that perhaps there should be two areas of rubble with a door between them (representing the canvas). Should I try making this and submitting it to the LOS maps crowd project?

ddavison
November 1st, 2019, 15:53
Thanks, Doug. I tried deleting the moduledb file for Lost Mine of Phandelver in the campaign's moduledb folder, but that didn't make any difference - the doors were still open, and there weren't any secret doors on the Redbrand Hideout map, either. So I ran the updater again, and that seems to have fixed the issue - all doors present and correct!

Incidentally, I don't think the rubble to the north of area 11 (P3-08.11. Ruined Tower) is set up correctly on the LOS layer. It's a single zone, stretching across the entrance, which means that when you pass through it you can see into the room to the east. I think that perhaps there should be two areas of rubble with a door between them (representing the canvas). Should I try making this and submitting it to the LOS maps crowd project?

If you want to redo it, test the experience and then post a screenshot of before and after, that would probably be best. I can make the adjustment and then re-export & package it.

Callum
November 1st, 2019, 16:41
If you want to redo it, test the experience and then post a screenshot of before and after, that would probably be best. I can make the adjustment and then re-export & package it.

Here you go, Doug.
29811 29812

Zwergenmauer
November 3rd, 2019, 07:44
I'm using the Pathfinder ruleset and I am having to set up LOS manually for each map. I'm sure that's intentional (?) as the same map might be used different ways with different visibility rules. However, I cannot seem to import non-Smiteworks maps (i.e. ones that I own as jpg or png images) to set up LOS on them, even as I am trying to follow the wiki. Maybe I am missing something?

Also (and maybe this belongs in another thread?)-- it seems the only method for adding an NPC or Character to the map is from the combat tracker. Is there a way that the PCs map token could also be placed into the map from the Character sheet?

Zacchaeus
November 3rd, 2019, 13:56
I'm using the Pathfinder ruleset and I am having to set up LOS manually for each map. I'm sure that's intentional (?) as the same map might be used different ways with different visibility rules. However, I cannot seem to import non-Smiteworks maps (i.e. ones that I own as jpg or png images) to set up LOS on them, even as I am trying to follow the wiki. Maybe I am missing something?

Also (and maybe this belongs in another thread?)-- it seems the only method for adding an NPC or Character to the map is from the combat tracker. Is there a way that the PCs map token could also be placed into the map from the Character sheet?

None of the Pathfinder modules have been updated with LOS as yet so you won't find any LOS. When you add an image into the images folder it will appear in the campaign folder in Assets. You need to drag the image from there into the images window to add it to your campaign. See here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50483-FGU-Playtest-Known-Items) and the wiki here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?51537-New-Fantasy-Grounds-Unity-Wiki-Training-and-Resources).

For a long time now FG has prevented tokens being added to maps other than via the CT. This is to prevent the situation where doing it this way meant that targeting and movement would not work. The correct and only method you should use to add PCs to the map is via the CT.

Zwergenmauer
November 3rd, 2019, 14:43
Thank you, @Zacchaeus. All of this has helped. And thank you as well for the info on CT. I also saw that Alpha Group is working on some maps to define LOS, but I only saw one Pathfinder 2 map in the group set. No worries; it just means that we Pathfinder users will have to do some extra set-up work before using PF maps.

Zacchaeus
November 3rd, 2019, 15:08
Thank you, @Zacchaeus. All of this has helped. And thank you as well for the info on CT. I also saw that Alpha Group is working on some maps to define LOS, but I only saw one Pathfinder 2 map in the group set. No worries; it just means that we Pathfinder users will have to do some extra set-up work before using PF maps.

Adding LOS to maps is open to anyone that wants to contribute (I've amended the first line of the post to make that clearer). So if you want to share then follow the instructions in that post.

Callum
November 4th, 2019, 11:05
If you want to redo it, test the experience and then post a screenshot of before and after, that would probably be best. I can make the adjustment and then re-export & package it.

Actually, Doug, I got to thinking that it might be better to put another rubble zone in the middle, rather than a door, since that is what it looks like from the outside (and the canvas "door" can't be left open).

Callum
November 11th, 2019, 22:20
Here you go, Doug.
29811 29812

Also, the door occluder is missing from the curtain to the north of area 12 (Guard Barracks).

ddavison
November 12th, 2019, 13:17
In this comparison, I actually think the 1st screenshot is what I would want and expect. The rubble slopes down from the raised floor (1-story up) where the PC is standing down to the ground level there. It shouldn't block line of sight to the doorway. The curtain just below is set up as a door. The door occluders should allow you to see the entirety of the door unless it is blocked by another wall somewhere.

Callum
November 19th, 2019, 20:51
In this comparison, I actually think the 1st screenshot is what I would want and expect. The rubble slopes down from the raised floor (1-story up) where the PC is standing down to the ground level there. It shouldn't block line of sight to the doorway. The curtain just below is set up as a door. The door occluders should allow you to see the entirety of the door unless it is blocked by another wall somewhere.

I'm confused! In both pictures, the PC is at the interior floor level, having just stepped into the passageway dug between two mounds of rubble. They shouldn't be able to see past the top of the rubble pile, let alone into a room beyond (which is also at the same level as the PC)! In fact, the way the rubble piles are shown on the whole map suggests that they are as high as walls - curtains strung between them, barrels stacked against them, tunnels dug through them - and I believe they should be treated as such. There's also nothing in the text that suggests they can be climbed or seen over - for example, nothing suggests that you can get into the Hobgoblin Barracks (room 6) or the Ruined Barracks (room 4) directly from outside the castle.

The curtain just below is fine - it's the one to the southeast that is missing from the occluders.

ddavison
November 20th, 2019, 01:51
In the pictures you linked, the player is currently 10-20' above the exterior ground level at the current position. The rubble there is from the castle wall down to the ground (my interpretation)... so it isn't blocking the player's vision to the player's right. The entire castle floor is raised off the ground since the player has to climb a stairwell to get up to the door if they enter from the South face of the castle.

The rubble section below the player between the curtains is a higher rubble pile. While they technically wouldn't be able to see the southern face of this rubble pile, I think that is an acceptable abstraction for simplification.

Callum
November 20th, 2019, 15:54
The difference between ground level and interior floor level is six feet: "Arrow slits in the castle walls are 10 feet above the outside ground level, 4 feet above the interior floor level". Irrespective of this, it's clear that the rubble here at the north entrance is above head height for someone standing there because the entrance is completely covered with a piece of canvas: "To the north, a short passage through the rubble ends before a screen of canvas."

But the key issue is that all the rubble shown on the map is from the collapsed upper floors of the castle - the ground floor is (almost) intact, and movement is not possible through the rubble except where passages have been dug. This is clear when reading through the descriptions of the castle rooms as a whole - entrances and exits are carefully described, as well as the fact that light comes in through the arrow slits, but no mention is ever made of the rubble areas being passable or letting in light.

ddavison
November 20th, 2019, 16:22
I think that is a fair assessment, but I still interpret it differently. The canvas (C) mentioned in the text is at ground level and behind it reveals a pathway through the rubble up to the entrance (i.e. 6' incline to the interior level). The boxed text for area 11 says "This tower has almost completely collapsed." To me, this means it slopes down to the ground level and is not piled up enough to block LOS from the interior level to another part of the interior level. It's definitely a judgment call that I could see going either way.

The good news is that an end-user can always remove and replace the LOS points to fit their interpretation of any space. There are bound to be differences of views on maps.

Callum
November 21st, 2019, 21:16
Yes, that's fair enough, Doug! As you say, you are always going to get differences of interpretation. Perhaps you could reach out to your contacts at Wizards for the official view?

Callum
April 13th, 2020, 12:52
Any news from Wizards, Doug?

None of the room descriptions make mention of the rubble being passable - which would be a significant factor, offering several additional ways into and out of the castle, so you would think it would get a mention. For example, the northwestern room simply says "The north wall shows signs of damage". That doesn't sound passable to me.

The section on Light in the General Features introduction says "A small amount of natural light filters through the arrow slits around the castle. During the day, this provides dim light in most areas." Again, no mention of light coming in through the rubble areas, which would be significantly more than the arrow slits provide, were the rubble passable.

If you assume the rubble is passable, then you have to answer all sorts of other questions. Why have many of the inhabitants chosen to sleep (rather than, say, post guards) in rooms that are open to the outside? Why have they bothered to clear passages through the rubble to move between rooms when they could simply scramble over it? Why have they put a cloth over one of the passages to hide the fact that it's a way in when anyone could just clamber over the rubble next to it? Why have they put a bar across the door to the southeastern tower when the creature inside can get out over the rubble next to the door?

All these things together make it clear to me that the rubble is not passable.

Zacchaeus
April 13th, 2020, 13:02
As noted in the comments on my video (I'm assuming it's you) this is open to interpretation. If you want to make these areas impassible - do so. Change the terrain to walls.

ddavison
April 13th, 2020, 14:15
Absolutely. The GM should always make a determination on how they want their game to run. This is not the level of detail or nuance that we expect to be going back and forth with on different interpretations. We build it out the way we think it makes sense and then provide you with the tools you need to modify it to fit your own campaign. You can delete or remove LOS, add in new LOS or whatever makes sense from your perspective.