Suggestion: Easily apply damage/healing with the D/H keys

[tintagel]

So I submitted an idea to the huge (772+ ideas) pile but I worry that it will just be lost in a sea of ideas, so I'm proposing it here in hopes that people might go vote if they agree:
https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/proj/fg2app?ia=128329

It would be great for Face-to-Face groups to be able to select 1+ tokens, press the D key, and have the system prompt you for a number, then deal that much damage to any creatures the tokens represent. This would be similar to dragging damage to the token but you don't have to have an actual damaging roll or modifiers applied manually.

This is intuitive and object-oriented as you instinctively select things first then apply damage/healing to them second.

The H key could Heal damage too. Again, simple with no mental math, no hotkey configuring, newbie friendly. Makes it easy to fix things like the player forgot to apply Hunter's Mark damage. he could roll a d6 in chat and you press D and type the value.

Thoughts?

[Zacchaeus]

You can do this with the manual dice roller option. I’d I am understanding what you require.

[Ckorik]

You can do this with the manual dice roller option. I’d I am understanding what you require.

I turned that option on - it lasted for about 5 mins before it frustrated me so badly because it required a manual input for *every* roll - which isn't what I wanted. Although this - I think - would be possible as an extension - and that way it could also get options to include damage type to allow resistances and such to apply.

[Andraax]

I turned that option on - it lasted for about 5 mins before it frustrated me so badly because it required a manual input for *every* roll - which isn't what I wanted. Although this - I think - would be possible as an extension - and that way it could also get options to include damage type to allow resistances and such to apply.

Just click the die icon on the popup to get a random roll.

[Ckorik]

Just click the die icon on the popup to get a random roll.

Yep - but way too much of a PITA - I wanted random rolls unless needed otherwise - and the execution was 100% opposite of the behavior I wanted. We live with the limitations of the product - and it can't be perfect for everyone - in this case that option is worthless for me because it makes me upset more than it helps - I'm sure I could be the very singular only person ever to hate that feature and find it totally worthless - but there it is.

That said I still see this idea having value as an extension that would make things more intuitive for 'roll at the table enter values into the program for tracking' play.

[Trenloe]

I admit it is a pain to have the manual roll functionality on all the time.

Also, the OP's request has merit. Technically keys aren't directly possible - as FG is specifically designed to not capture key presses in the FG windows (unless a text entry control is selected). This is based on the original release functionality where most people used FG with text entry to communicate - so that you could use various windows, maps, etc. and easily keep typing in chat.

So, maybe buttons/controls in the map might be a way to go - click to enable damage/healing selection, select tokens that will be the recipient of the action, type in the value in a field and then click apply. Then the image goes back to normal selection/targeting mode. I also find that having a graphical toolbar driven solution (not relying on people reading documentation to learn about key-presses) also helps new users as they'll be curious as to what buttons do, but may never know about a hidden key press.

[LordEntrails]

Any reasonable to get something similar with the hot bar keys?

[Trenloe]

Any reasonable to get something similar with the hot bar keys?
I started writing about that, but then deleted it, as one of the main things the OP mentioned was making things easier for new users. Because that isn't an easy to use solution either - create a dummy PC with 2 actions - one damage with a d0, one healing with a d0. Drag those two actions to the hotkey bar. Add the dummy PC to the combat tracker and then the map so that targeting on the map can be used - but remember the dummy PC is not an actual creature on the map! Target the creatures that will be the recipient of the damage/healing, type the value in the modifier box and press the relevant hotkey. It works, but newbie friendly? Not at all...

[notrealdan]

Maybe there could be a 1-click way to turn on manual dice entry for just the next roll, like the modifier buttons at the bottom-left of the FG screen? Or toggle that feature on/off at will? It's one of those things that is really useful sometimes, but I don't want it on all the time.

[damned]

Maybe there could be a 1-click way to turn on manual dice entry for just the next roll, like the modifier buttons at the bottom-left of the FG screen? Or toggle that feature on/off at will? It's one of those things that is really useful sometimes, but I don't want it on all the time.

Im pretty sure Celestian did an extension that does that.

[damned]

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?43751-CoreRPG-based-On-Demand-Manual-Dice-(DM-only)
This doesnt answer the OPs original request though....
It might get someone somewhat closer though.

[tintagel]

I started writing about that, but then deleted it, as one of the main things the OP mentioned was making things easier for new users. Because that isn't an easy to use solution either - create a dummy PC with 2 actions - one damage with a d0, one healing with a d0. Drag those two actions to the hotkey bar. Add the dummy PC to the combat tracker and then the map so that targeting on the map can be used - but remember the dummy PC is not an actual creature on the map! Target the creatures that will be the recipient of the damage/healing, type the value in the modifier box and press the relevant hotkey. It works, but newbie friendly? Not at all...

EXACTLY. This is what I have to do and I'm just... well flabbergasted.

See, You all don't know, but here's a long story and I hope some of you read it.

Long ago, I worked on a VT called d20pro. I helped design the original software. I didn't code. I was a usability person, and I did some of the artwork for it (icons, menus, etc). I've been using it for years and even bought Fantasy Grounds in 2007 in order to do a competitive analysis for d20pro. Even then, FG was impressive, but at the core user experience, it didn't match d20pro. Obviously, I was biased; I helped write our user experience after all. The company was owned by Mindgene when I was involved and sold to Mesa Mundi, the current owner. I got out at that time but haven't shopped for a replacement until recently. Again, I don't work on d20pro anymore and have no allegiance. I'm trying to switch to FG honestly.

Anyways, one of the core ideas I had was that the User Interface needed to be direct and intuitive. See tokens on the map? Drag-drop to move them. Right-click to get a menu of what you can do to that token. Tokens weren't separate from the creature. Want to attack with a creature? Right-click it and choose Attack, or select and hit the A key. Then your attacks were listed. Select them, then click the creature you want to deliver them to and confirm. During this process - at every step - you could override things. Add dice, modifiers to damage or hit or impose disadvantage. It was obvious and in your face with a popup. Want to damage 4 units as a DM? Select them via box drag and hit D, and a popup asks how much. Done. Life displayed on the unit. Want to heal your 5 party members for 17 damage? Select, H, type 17, [enter].

See a 50 second video of d20pro in action: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rMnuqWh_2SS8iPnKR-WU_Fhy0lWwGSXn

In FG, I have to select tokens, use a hotkey or special dummy pc to deliver a healing spell or effect, BUT WAIT, I have to type 17 into the modifier box FIRST, then roll the d0 die and THEN I can drag it to each creature. Or I can do mental math on 5 different wound values on the tokens - NO, on the Combat Tracker..? and slow my game down to do the maths.

Now i know that sounds like a rant, but hear me out. d20pro felt like a nice sedan, like an Altima, that I could get into and just drive. Things were fine. FG feels like a limousine. It rubs my feet as I ride. It has full auto-driving and GPS and a wine rack and DVD. But for the life of me, I can't find the Gas pedal or even the steering wheel.

FG: "Why would you want to steer it manually? Just program where you want to go into the GPS."
Me: "But what if I change my mind and want to go into that field over there?"
FG: "Easy, I wrote an extension that simulates a steering wheel. You just have to program the Lat/Long with minutes/seconds into the dash and it will 'steer' you where you need to go. Easy if you know some Javascript or XML."
Me: "but... I just want to steer myself."
FG: "we found that most people like automatic."

And yet I'm on these forums. And I've spent a week digging deep into the software, and I recently purchased $90 of content (5E core set). Why? Because lately d20pro has had serious performance issues. My Altima broke down on me twice in a week and left me stranded on the road, so to speak. So I checked out this Limo I had in the garage since 2007 and I'm blown away at its potential. I think with the right mods or extensions it might launch cruise missiles at my old high school enemies. But I can't steer it or control the gas with a pedal. I'm invited to write some code or an extension and then maybe maybe it will feel like a steering wheel.

SO... my mom always told me, "Don't complain unless you have a solution." And if you are still with me, you get to hear it:

Allow a right-click menu option on a token to Damage it. A window pops up asking for how much. That number affects the wound value (5E) and deal damage. Negative damage heals. This gets around the keyboard limitations, but doesn't solve damaging multiple creatures. For that, you can have a checkbox on the popup window that says, "apply to all selected tokens" maybe?

[Bidmaron]

Hey, tintagel, thanks for the very constructive way that you concluded and your overall tone.

But I have to say that I've been here a while, and while people grouse in general about the UI (almost always the new folks, and once people get used to it, most cease to bitch about it), no one has ever brought up what you are saying (that I can remember). Me personally, I've never had an issue doing heals and adjusting HP up or down. I use my FG conveyance the way it was designed, and don't expect it to do something like some alternative tool (which I honestly never used one of the alternates).
Your solution may solve your itch making FG work more like the tools you are used to, but think about it a second because you would have to do that for every token you are talking about. Doesn't sound so easy to do anymore. Plus, who can do it, DMs or players too? If players, then you will have 10x more DMs saying they don't want the loss of control having players randomly healing or wounding characters. Then you have to provide a setting as to who can do the function you are asking for. The next thing someone will demand is that the little token HP adjuster is really cool, but why can't it let me roll a d6 (or a d5+2 or...) instead of just having to type a number into the window. Since FG doesn't have modal windows, someone else will not notice that there is a new tiny window somewhere (and where would that be, by the way?) that is asking for the HP adjustment. And then, later in the game after clearing up some windows, they finally notice this little HP adjustment window, but now the token it was meant to adjust is no longer in existence, so the logic tied to the window has to handle that case also.

Have patience, you will learn to maneuver your limousine, but quit expecting it to work just like the Altima you left on the side of the road....

[tintagel]

Thank you for recognizing my desire to be helpful. I hope displaying competitor features is ok on these forums. I really do want FG to be even better than it already is. I'm hoping for a minor feature that would provide large benefits while being as innocuous as possible.

I can clarify a bit if it helps:

One, these manual damage/heal options are for the GM only. Their purpose is to manually override or control the game to make things just happen. At minimum, the ability to heal/harm/destroy/copy/place creatures is the DM's area. It's fundamental to his/her ability to run the game.
I mentioned a method to affect multiple targets. It would be similar to Delete All Tokens, only it would only affect those selected. Just like when you move a group.
Right-clicking on a unit to perform actions is already present in the system and since its initiated by the user, the pop-up window isn't going to be ignored any more than the window that pops up when you turn on Manual Dice or when you click on a pin. It's pretty obvious...


Yes, asking the limo to allow what the Altima does sounds a bit entitled, but you must understand, I've driven many VTs and they have some universal features - a primary one being the ability to easily apply damage/healing. I would go so far as to say it's Industry Standard, so I would be careful in dismissing such functionality. Granted, FG can do it but it's non-intuitive and takes too long for an act uniquely suited for a computer to perform (math). I've found MANY forum topics from folks asking for more intuitive Face-to-Face support, and I've only been using FG for a week.

[Bidmaron]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it can't be done - it absolutely could be done, but few folks experienced enough to do it are going to spend time on something that can already be done with very little effort other than understanding the way FG currently works. As you no-doubt noted, the wish list is polluted with requests for UI-related matters trying to make FG work more like some other program, but you will rapidly get to the point that you look past that because FG is so awesome in what it can do that the others can't touch that we try to be content with SW working to bring us more of that awesomeness rather than trying to make new-adopters lives easier for the first two weeks. Maybe a cruel view, but....

But, it wouldn't be the first time someone had a good and relatively simple idea that one of the grognards around here leapt on to do, but most of us have more critical things we are working on that bring new and not recycled capability to the system we love....

[Andraax]

Yes, asking the limo to allow what the Altima does sounds a bit entitled, but you must understand, I've driven many VTs and they have some universal features - a primary one being the ability to easily apply damage/healing. I would go so far as to say it's Industry Standard, so I would be careful in dismissing such functionality. Granted, FG can do it but it's non-intuitive and takes too long for an act uniquely suited for a computer to perform (math). I've found MANY forum topics from folks asking for more intuitive Face-to-Face support, and I've only been using FG for a week.

I don't know. I already do this - select all the applicable tokens, and drop a damage / heal roll into the chat box, and it applies to all selected tokens. If I want to force a number, I turn on manual rolls, select tokens, then drop a damage / heal roll into the chat box and type the number into the pop-up.

[Trenloe]

T...a primary one being the ability to easily apply damage/healing.
Maybe you've overlooked the ability to be able to apply damage/healing directly to to creatures in the combat tracker? Click on the wounds field, make a change. Use CTRL+mouse-wheel to make an incremental change up/down.

This is one thing that users more familiar with other VTTs sometimes struggle with. The data is stored in the token, the token is attached to the main creature record - which is in the combat tracker. So, always use the combat tracker as the master - make changes to wounds, init, etc.. Editing data is not tied to a "token" per se, it's tied to the related record in the CT.

[Andraax]

Maybe you've overlooked the ability to be able to apply damage/healing directly to to creatures in the combat tracker? Click on the wounds field, make a change. Use CTRL+mouse-wheel to make an incremental change up/down.

You can enter a number in the modifier box, then drag it to the wound field and it will add that number to the wounds.

[LordEntrails]

I hope displaying competitor features is ok on these forums.

Absolutely. Any honest and respectful discussion related to FG (even remotely) is welcome here.

I think as you've seen, there are a lot of opinions on user interface. Not much different than any software application. (I've got experience in the 3D MCAD sector, and discussions there are not much different.)

It's not that new users don't have valuable insights and suggestions, but my advice is to always learn how to use the application the way it was designed to be used. Then, after you are proficient with it, look to customize/configure the UI to fit your needs. Even though any given UI is unlikely to be optimized for any given user, they usually have some competence put into their development and if you can learn to think like the developer, you can learn to excell at the UI, rather than struggling with it.

I'm glad you've joined us and hope you stick around, imo it's obvious you have a lot of value you can bring to the community. Welcome!

[Trenloe]

You can enter a number in the modifier box, then drag it to the wound field and it will add that number to the wounds.
This exact process won't actually work - the Wound field in the CT doesn't accept a number dragged directly from the Modifier box. You need an extra step - drag from the modifier box to the chat window, then from the Chat to the CT wound field.

[Ckorik]

You can enter a number in the modifier box, then drag it to the wound field and it will add that number to the wounds.

I had no idea - I'll be honest I learn more from the complaint threads where people offhandedly mention things like this - that improve my experience so much. Like in the PF2 thread - where Trenloe casually showed how you can make effects only active against some enemies.

And yes - I've read the manual - and I have watched... numerous all things fantasy grounds in an effort to try to learn the system - but there are a ton of little things that simplify running a game that are hard to grasp/no context provided... I would have never in my life imagined dragging the *modifier* box to anything. The very idea broke my mind until I went... well that's brilliant.

[LordEntrails]

Thinking about this more, it seems to me one of the things we might be missing is in regards to the workflow. It seems to me we might be starting in the middle instead of the beginning.

How do you know how much damage/healing you want to apply to the creature? Before you know the value, their is something that happens. It might be a die roll, or it might be a fixed amount. But in FG I always do this with an action (or effect). So I have an actual on the Pali for 5 points of healing for the lay on hands. Or I have an attack for the trap that does X damage. etc.

Then with that action, I target and apply it just like I would any other actions with the CT.

Should we look at solutions that start at the beginning, rather than in the middle?

[Trenloe]

...to apply to the token...
Don't you bl00dy start calling creature records tokens!

;)

[LordEntrails]

Don't you bl00dy start calling creature records tokens!

;)
I did no such thing, just ignore that edit tag on my post...

[tintagel]

I understand, and after several hours of research I've worked around many of my initial frustrations. But man.... newbies be warned.

I currently use the d0 damage and d0 heal shortcuts but right now they don't apply to the tokens I've selected. They just feed into the chat and I have to drag them. Maybe I'm missing something?


Maybe you've overlooked the ability to be able to apply damage/healing directly to to creatures in the combat tracker? Click on the wounds field, make a change. Use CTRL+mouse-wheel to make an incremental change up/down.
This is one thing that users more familiar with other VTTs sometimes struggle with. The data is stored in the token, the token is attached to the main creature record - which is in the combat tracker. So, always use the combat tracker as the master - make changes to wounds, init, etc.. Editing data is not tied to a "token" per se, it's tied to the related record in the CT

Adding damage in the combat tracker is the problem since sometimes it's tedious to damage 5 creatures at once or know which orc you are damaging. Not impossible by hovering over them - just time consuming. I didn't know about the CTRL Mouse wheel - that's nice but a bit imprecise if I'm doing it quickly. Might need some getting used to. :-)

I figured out that the tokens are just representations and links to the combat tracker. I can see where that might confuse people. Still, there's use case precedent where tokens are treated (from the user experience) as being the creature rather than a token representing it. YOu can drag damage dice onto the token for example. There's the illusion that the token holds the data.


How do you know how much damage/healing you want to apply to the creature? Before you know the value, their is something that happens. It might be a die roll, or it might be a fixed amount. But in FG I always do this with an action (or effect). So I have an actual on the Pali for 5 points of healing for the lay on hands. Or I have an attack for the trap that does X damage. etc.
Actually, no. We play Face-to-Face and the players don't bring devices. I host the player client on another screen and the players roll their dice manually. I've tried to get them to use VT software but you don't touch a man's dice. The dice and sheets are sacred in my neck of the woods. So I always know the damage or healing I need to apply. Also, sometimes in an online game, you need to quickly adjust hp. Let's say the rogue applied sneak attack by mistake, so you need to heal the creature for 15, or maybe it drank a potion and you failed to create the item ahead of time (more prep work or $$).

Another situation that arose with d20pro. With d20pro's ease of damage/heal creatures, I was able to quickly run even odd games like Zombies!! or Warhammer Quest or whatever, since it was so easy to just use the software to move minis and damage wounds/hp.

Anyways, I figured out a workaround, though I still don't know how to apply the damage to tokens I'm currently selecting.

[Trenloe]

I currently use the d0 damage and d0 heal shortcuts but right now they don't apply to the tokens I've selected. They just feed into the chat and I have to drag them. Maybe I'm missing something?
The process has to be followed exactly - see the details I provide in post #8. The shortcuts you create are linked to a specific PC - only the targeting for that PC will be applied when you use the shortcuts. So you need to dummy heal/harm PC in the combat tracker and (if you want to use targeting on the map rather than CTRL+left-click on the combat tracker) then you'll need to add the linked token for the dummy PC from the CT to the map.

[tintagel]

,... select all the applicable tokens, and drop a damage / heal roll into the chat box, and it applies to all selected tokens....

How exactly do you have the hotkey set up? What's the string to perform this? I can get it to report damage of 0+modifier to the chat but it doesn't apply it to selected tokens.

[tintagel]

The process has to be followed exactly - see the details I provide in post #8. The shortcuts you create are linked to a specific PC - only the targeting for that PC will be applied when you use the shortcuts. So you need to dummy heal/harm PC in the combat tracker and (if you want to use targeting on the map rather than CTRL+left-click on the combat tracker) then you'll need to add the linked token for the dummy PC from the CT to the map.

Ok I think I follow you. So my shortcuts are referencing a long-deleted NPC then. That's why they just report to the chat log and don't apply to creatures?

Ugh. Well I think I can do what you mention - create a DM NPC and put it into the combat tracker to do this... Just feels like I'm putting in Lat/Long coordinates to go offroad, ya know? You can empathize how this is not really intuitive to a typical gamer: In order for you, the all powerful GM, who can clone, delete, create and modify any entity in the world... in order for you to heal all party members for 17 points.... you need to create a special hidden creature and give it a special power, then assign the party as targets of said creature, then use it's power. Or manually modify each of the 5 PC hit point totals via drag/drop or mental math.

That's all I'm saying. As feedback from a new person, one or two functions in the software are very unfriendly to those playing in Face-to-Face or manual roll situations.

The remaining 95 percent of the software is blowing my mind and I love it. It's just this fly in the ointment.

[Andraax]

How exactly do you have the hotkey set up? What's the string to perform this? I can get it to report damage of 0+modifier to the chat but it doesn't apply it to selected tokens.

I don't do it often, but when I do, it's usually for traps. In that case, I setup the trap as an NPC with an attack that has a damage roll (if I need a fixed number, I put in the damage as "1d1+10" or whatever). Then I can just drag and drop the damage from the trap NPC record. I also drag a link to the NPC record to the map to crate a pin. When the players get there, I click the pin to bring up the NPC record and the drag and drop the attack damage...

[tintagel]

I don't do it often, but when I do, it's usually for traps. In that case, I setup the trap as an NPC with an attack that has a damage roll (if I need a fixed number, I put in the damage as "1d1+10" or whatever). Then I can just drag and drop the damage from the trap NPC record. I also drag a link to the NPC record to the map to crate a pin. When the players get there, I click the pin to bring up the NPC record and the drag and drop the attack damage...

Thanks for this, but it's what I did initially. The problem with using an NPC like this, I think, is that when you remove that NPC from the combat tracker, it also breaks the link, so the dice still roll and report to the chat, but it doesn't target because they lose their "source" - it doesn't know who is sending the damage.

I solved this by making a PC called Dungeon Master and setting it up with damage and heal abilities. That way, the reference in the shortcut XML isn't broken if I remove the entry from the combat log. PCs seem to have a more permanent reference than NPCs.
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[Ampersandrew]

I solved this by making a PC called Dungeon Master and setting it up with damage and heal abilities. That way, the reference in the shortcut XML isn't broken if I remove the entry from the combat log. PCs seem to have a more permanent reference than NPCs.

That's awesome.

[Andraax]

Thanks for this, but it's what I did initially. The problem with using an NPC like this, I think, is that when you remove that NPC from the combat tracker, it also breaks the link, so the dice still roll and report to the chat, but it doesn't target because they lose their "source" - it doesn't know who is sending the damage.

I don't bother adding it to the combat tracker. I just drag it from the NPC window that pops up onto the token. That's why I put the pin on the map - so I'm right there with the token when I'm doing it.

[tintagel]

I don't bother adding it to the combat tracker. I just drag it from the NPC window that pops up onto the token. That's why I put the pin on the map - so I'm right there with the token when I'm doing it.
Ohhhh... Well Today I Learned. :-)

[Andraax]

Here is a video of how I do it:

https://s3.silent-tower.org/Fantasy+Grounds+2019-09-10+16-09-14.mp4

[tintagel]

Excellent. I'll definitely use that for traps and such. I'll be keeping my Dungeon Master to make group attacks and spells easier. Our sorcerer, for example, has empowered spell and the elemental affinity feat (1's are counted as 2's) and loves to roll her own pretty dice, so distributing spell damage to multiple targets, with independent saves and possible resistances... It's easier with targeting effects.

But I do like the simplicity of your method for single Target damage/effects.

[Ampersandrew]

Here is a video of how I do it:

https://s3.silent-tower.org/Fantasy+Grounds+2019-09-10+16-09-14.mp4

I'm not sure how 1d1+6 didn't become 7.

[Andraax]

I'm not sure how 1d1+6 didn't become 7.

For some reason, 1d1+X always becomes X. It's a way to code fixed value die rolls. Haven't dug into it too much.

[Ampersandrew]

For some reason, 1d1+X always becomes X. It's a way to code fixed value die rolls. Haven't dug into it too much.

That sounds like a bug to me.

[Zacchaeus]

A one sided dice would only ever have a value of one.

[Ampersandrew]

A one sided dice would only ever have a value of one.

Right. When I went to school 1 + 6 was 7.

[mattekure]

Right. When I went to school 1 + 6 was 7.

Look at you with your fancy new math. :p

[Zacchaeus]

Right. When I went to school 1 + 6 was 7.
Aha. I totally misread the original post. I can’t remember school, but I think it still does make 7 :D